Was Evil invented by mistake ?

[Patrick]

It occurs to me that Evil might have been invented by mistake.  I know there are no mistakes, so instead let's say it was invented by surprise then.

My intuition tells me that The One Infinite Creator (Love) does indeed exist even without a polar opposite (Fear).

As Ra says in 77.19:

...The, shall we say, saga of polarity, its consequences and limits, were unimagined until experienced...

I do not believe the intent of that Logos was to create evil/fear when the veil was invented.  So I believe Evil was pretty much invented by mistake.  Of course, now that STS does exist, we make the better of it, we learn from it and use it to contrast God's Love with it so that we see how great his Love is.  There was no need/intent to contrast it to that extent.

My hope now is that there will be no need to repeat this type of experience in the next Octave.  Imagine trying to invent ways of contrasting the true nature of the Creator with even more separation, fear, suffering and sorrow than what is already possible in this octave.

So, for the next octave, I cast my vote for a design where all experiences are ALWAYS fun.  There has to be ways of contrasting/polarizing efficiently without STS.  Things we can't even imagine at the moment.

My friends, what are your thoughts on the subject ?

[AnthroHeart]

If there is no shadow, you can't recognize the light.

I think even the next Octave will have some form of negativity, due to the holographic nature of reality.

But there might not be duality. I'm not sure. I think this Octave is illusion, and the next Octave is real.

Well, you want adventures, even when they're not always fun. If we don't have to strive for things, it can get boring.

Maybe we won't choose to forget who we are in the next Octave.

[Infinite]

Ra said the service to self path was created as a way to accelerate evolution in the third density. He also said that the Logoi who chose the extension of free will offer greater quality and variety of experiences for the Creator. I wouldn't say it was a mistake, but in a way, a success.

The evil of the world, cruelty, suffering, etc. All of these things are terrible, something that in our perception seems inexplicable and unjustified. However, when looking at the whole picture, the value of all this is perceived. We are in an illusion, although it is persistent. All evil and suffering are part of that illusion. When the curtains of 3D life are lifted, we remember that it was all a great cosmic theater from the beginning and the period before we started acting. We also realized that we identify too much with the play and our character. It's like being in the best moment of your life and one day you sleep too much, you have some bad dreams, but when you wake up in the morning you remember how you've been living happily. When you wake up from life, you remember that you are the Creator, that everything is one, that you are eternal, that everything is fine, that the destiny of all is the eternal glory of the Creator's endless Light and Love. It is as if the whole universe has become a safe ground for you, because how could you fear something if everything is always fine?

Duality is difficult, but it is this friction of polarities that moves the complex mind / body / spirit of the third density to seek more quickly for spiritual truth. Another notable fact is: Lucifer and the other Logoi did not create evil, they created the possibility that it would exist. Evil is the result of free will. It was our right, as 3D entities, to choose the way we would live that made evil possible. Suffering is something more intrinsic to the veil of forgetfulness. That's my humble opinion.

[Aion]

I don't think the One Infinite Creator has an opposite, that's kind of the point of the concept of unity, and that isn't to suggest what you say that fear doesn't exist and love does.
I think those things are a duality and thus still not actually touching the eternal unity of infinity.

This Octave is going to exist forever, just as all Octaves do, because from certain perspectives this Octave is occurring entirely simultaneously, everything that is possible to occur in this Octave has, will or is occurring. We reach this perspective in between octaves, the 'late stage' of seventh density as Ra might say, when you turn towards true eternity and timelessness.

Good and Evil are entirely subjective. "What is normal for the spider is a nightmare for the fly."

The issue comes when you realize you can choose to be the spider or the fly. More interesting when you realize you are both.

[Patrick]

Ra said the service to self path was created as a way to accelerate evolution in the third density. He also said that the Logoi who chose the extension of free will offer greater quality and variety of experiences for the Creator. I wouldn't say it was a mistake, but in a way, a success.
...

Where does Ra say that STS was created for that purpose ?  I know that it is used for that purposed.  But IMHO STS was not created, or I should say that it was not designed by any Logos.  A Logos had the idea to create the veil in 3d space/time as a way to better extend free will to the level of sub-sub-Logoi.  This created the conditions required for STS to arise.  That result was not intentional.

I understand that now that STS does exist the Logoi are all very happy to use the concept to its fullest.  Because of course the Creator will have all experiences available to it.  It's the whole point of the Creation after all.

Still, I believe this result was not intentional and was not planned for in the design of this octave.

...
The evil of the world, cruelty, suffering, etc. All of these things are terrible, something that in our perception seems inexplicable and unjustified. However, when looking at the whole picture, the value of all this is perceived. We are in an illusion, although it is persistent. All evil and suffering are part of that illusion. When the curtains of 3D life are lifted, we remember that it was all a great cosmic theater from the beginning and the period before we started acting. We also realized that we identify too much with the play and our character. It's like being in the best moment of your life and one day you sleep too much, you have some bad dreams, but when you wake up in the morning you remember how you've been living happily. When you wake up from life, you remember that you are the Creator, that everything is one, that you are eternal, that everything is fine, that the destiny of all is the eternal glory of the Creator's endless Light and Love. It is as if the whole universe has become a safe ground for you, because how could you fear something if everything is always fine?

Duality is difficult, but it is this friction of polarities that moves the complex mind / body / spirit of the third density to seek more quickly for spiritual truth. Another notable fact is: Lucifer and the other Logoi did not create evil, they created the possibility that it would exist. Evil is the result of free will. It was our right, as 3D entities, to choose the way we would live that made evil possible. Suffering is something more intrinsic to the veil of forgetfulness. That's my humble opinion.

Everything is not always fine, otherwise everything would always be fine during incarnation as well.  Yes we (the sub-sub-Logoi) created evil.  It was not the intent of our Logos to invent evil and make us suffer just so we would evolve faster.  I say this because all entities have all the time they wish to evolve at their own pace.  There is no need to speed things up so much by inventing a way to contrasts this much the nature of the Creator.

I know we wake up grateful to have had these experiences after incarnation and that we are all just playing a role.  BUT that does not change the fact that each entities incarnated and suffering are all the Creator just as much as any other iota in the multiverse and when they say: "This is too much contrast!  Too far away from God's nature!" they still have to suffer through veiled 3d whether they agree are not.

Freewill should allow you to use other methods of evolving if that is your wish, don't you think ?  So evil was not planned for in this octave, otherwise there would be a mechanism to not experience it if that is your wish and still evolve.

[Patrick]

...
This Octave is going to exist forever, just as all Octaves do, because from certain perspectives this Octave is occurring entirely simultaneously, everything that is possible to occur in this Octave has, will or is occurring.
...

Would you say that this current point in all of the Creation can be used at will by any entities from any octaves that would wish to experience what it's like to be as far away from the nature of the Creator as possible ?  You come here to take a shadow shower we could say and then are satisfied and go on having fun experiencing the rest of all octaves for all eternity without the need for this suffering ever again ?

Good and Evil are entirely subjective. "What is normal for the spider is a nightmare for the fly."

The issue comes when you realize you can choose to be the spider or the fly. More interesting when you realize you are both.

The concept of STS by itself goes further than this.  It's not standard duality or polarity, there is a depth to it that is not rightly balanced in the design of this octave of experience.  I'm pretty sure it's because it was not planned for at all.  All the densities of experience in an octave are all designed and planned before any of it is created in space/time.  STS was never imagined before being experienced in space/time and so was not planned for.

Before the veil, we still had polarity in 3d space/time.  We could choose in between not caring all that much about our evolution while we're having fun playing the game OR caring about our evolution because we're ready to reach new types of experiences in 4d.  Yes it could take many millions of years to complete 3d.  So what ?  We were all having fun, going trough an incredible variety of experiences.

That being said.  I would like to mention that right now in my current incarnation ALL IS WELL.  I live in abundance of everything (love, resources, other-selves, etc...)  I am not complaining for my lot in life.  I am truly thankful for everything that happens to me, even when I get angry for any reason, I'm still thankful !  I am just advocating for those I see around me on this planet whom are suffering needlessly, because I sincerely believe there is no need to evolve that fast.

Now if I could wrap my head around this planet at this time/space being the only place in the multiverse where this level of separation and suffering is possible and that entities come here to experience this for themselves as if it was a kind of PhD degree they want to get.  Knowing that all else in the multiverse is just having all kinds of fun playing the different games (fun even while incarnated in any of it).  Well then I would feel better about it I guess.  But that does not seem to be the case, the way I understood it from how Ra presented it.

[Aion]

Would you say that this current point in all of the Creation can be used at will by any entities from any octaves that would wish to experience what it's like to be as far away from the nature of the Creator as possible ?  You come here to take a shadow shower we could say and then are satisfied and go on having fun experiencing the rest of all octaves for all eternity without the need for this suffering ever again ?

That does sound rather idyllic, no?

Is it not ironic that it is the Creator itself, which we all are, that is distancing itself from itself?
Since the material reality all experience is a light-show created by this One Creator to interact with itself, would you think there would be a 'concern' for 'pain'?
How can infinity be concerned about something that it is except when it is that thing?

That is to say, all of these things are perfectly valid and even expected human concerns, but they are human concerns.

The concept of STS by itself goes further than this.  It's not standard duality or polarity, there is a depth to it that is not rightly balanced in the design of this octave of experience.  I'm pretty sure it's because it was not planned for at all.  All the densities of experience in an octave are all designed and planned before any of it is created in space/time.  STS was never imagined before being experienced in space/time and so was not planned for.

I don't really agree there. The Logos produced Archetypes which act upon and shape Intelligent Energy and these Archetypes started as simpler, less coherent "shadows" and then later emerged.
The Logoi are not the One Infinite Creator, even though they are "Co-Creators". Perhaps the Logos did not anticipate the results of its experiments, but the results were already 'available' at the emergence of this octave and all that has occurred is a enactment of these potentials. Thus, each experiment in consciousness and creation by a Logoi is the process of the One Infinite Creator manifesting itself through finity.

That is to say, I believe it was an inevitability that such things would develop. How could they not, in a universe expressing infinity through polarity?

Before the veil, we still had polarity in 3d space/time.  We could choose in between not caring all that much about our evolution while we're having fun playing the game OR caring about our evolution because we're ready to reach new types of experiences in 4d.  Yes it could take many millions of years to complete 3d.  So what ?  We were all having fun, going trough an incredible variety of experiences.

That being said.  I would like to mention that right now in my current incarnation ALL IS WELL.  I live in abundance of everything (love, resources, other-selves, etc...)  I am not complaining for my lot in life.  I am truly thankful for everything that happens to me, even when I get angry for any reason, I'm still thankful !  I am just advocating for those I see around me on this planet whom are suffering needlessly, because I sincerely believe there is no need to evolve that fast.

Now if I could wrap my head around this planet at this time/space being the only place in the multiverse where this level of separation and suffering is possible and that entities come here to experience this for themselves as if it was a kind of PhD degree they want to get.  Knowing that all else in the multiverse is just having all kinds of fun playing the different games (fun even while incarnated in any of it).  Well then I would feel better about it I guess.  But that does not seem to be the case, the way I understood it from how Ra presented it.

I think it is easy to romanticize an imagined past based on a channeling, but from my personal experience of the history of the universe it hasn't really been all hippies and rainbows.

It's funny how people lament the state of this planet, but this planet is only one in a vast system of conflict and with actually a positive footing. Others have not been so fortunate.
Will the conflict ever end? Absolutely. I think that is also inevitable.

It's easy to be patient when everything is sunshine and smiles, but not so much when the world is on fire.

As the saying goes, "this too shall pass".

So, let me get further to my point. I don't think you have to come back in to an octave if you don't want to after entering eternity, there are other 'types' of universes to engage with. The polarity game is a challenging universe to complete.

Will you not face any form of unpleasantness in any other universe? I think the Creator likes the mystery.

Of course, just imo.

[Patrick]

It is ironic yes. But I wonder if this very small part of the Creator having fun tormenting the rest of itself really shows up in all octaves after this one or if this insanity has been fully resolved and integrated by then and so does not need to play itself out again in this destructive way.

I mean surely the Law Of Non Repetition takes care of this somehow?

And if not, in order for this part to have its fun, it needs others to volunteer to play the victim. Maybe the victim role will be freely chosen instead of mandatory by then. OR we who are here now are already volunteers for this and being veiled would never understand why we made such a choice. Interesting thought experiment.

[AnthroHeart]

I don't think the Creator has fun in that.

Q'uo said the Creator has ever-increasing joy and agony.

[Patrick]

I don't think the Creator has fun in that.

Q'uo said the Creator has ever-increasing joy and agony.

Oh !  Is this the session you are referring to ? https://www.llresearch.org/transcripts/i..._1214.aspx

I always resonated with that the Creation is supposed to be fun always and that the 3d within our particular octave is a UNIQUE point in all of Infinity where these extremes of agony and joy is being played out to the extent the Creator is willing to go.  This being a finite thing.  Because I can't imagine the Creator (you and me) wishing to experience INFINITE suffering just so we can experience INFINITE Joy.

It has to be a finite thing where all entities decides what their limits are in both directions ?

[AnthroHeart]

I don't think the Creator has fun in that.

Q'uo said the Creator has ever-increasing joy and agony.

Oh !  Is this the session you are referring to ? https://www.llresearch.org/transcripts/i..._1214.aspx

I always resonated with that the Creation is supposed to be fun always and that the 3d within our particular octave is a UNIQUE point in all of Infinity where these extremes of agony and joy is being played out to the extent the Creator is willing to go.  This being a finite thing.  Because I can't imagine the Creator (you and me) wishing to experience INFINITE suffering just so we can experience INFINITE Joy.

It has to be a finite thing where all entities decides what their limits are in both directions ?

Yes, because duality is finite. So there isn't infinite suffering.

There are two types of infinite that I find. One is in intensity, and the other is in duration/flow that never stops.

[Aion]

It is ironic yes. But I wonder if this very small part of the Creator having fun tormenting the rest of itself really shows up in all octaves after this one or if this insanity has been fully resolved and integrated by then and so does not need to play itself out again in this destructive way.

I mean surely the Law Of Non Repetition takes care of this somehow?

And if not, in order for this part to have its fun, it needs others to volunteer to play the victim.  Maybe the victim role will be freely chosen instead of mandatory by then. OR we who are here now are already volunteers for this and being veiled would never understand why we made such a choice. Interesting thought experiment.

I feel like you're not really seeing the forest for the trees here.
Ra multiple times mentions negative harvests and other planets that are negative. Don't think it's localized. (Even without Ra saying that, I would think that is true.)
What is the "Law of Non-Repetition"? Never heard of any such thing. My understanding is this is a cyclical universe.

As Ra says, "this is not the density of understanding". The Veil does EXACTLY that, separates the conscious mind from the knowledge of the unconscious mind.
On that note, if we're looking at what Ra says, they seem to be pretty comfortable with the thought that "negative harvest" exists.

90.19 Questioner: Then did our Logos hope to see generated a positive and negative harvest from each density up to the sixth, starting with the third, as being the most efficient form of generating experience known to It at the time of Its construction of this system of evolution?

Ra: I am Ra. Yes.

That seems to be pretty black and white, "hopes to see generated a positive and negative harvest from each density up to the sixth."
All part of the plan, bud.

There's an evil side of you out there too that has enjoyed the negativity. Are you not all things?

[Patrick]

The Law of Non Repetition is just that the Creator will not allow itself to get stuck for infinity in a loop repeating the truly same experiences.  So any repetition that occurs is not really a repetition, it might seam so to us, but some parameters are always different thus it's not exactly the same experience.  The way the Creation is setup, it is not possible to repeat EXACTLY the VERY SAME experience.

---

That's interesting.  So when this solar system was created, the saga of polarities was already discovered at the time.  That is probably the case for all galaxies then.  The solar systems closer to the center of the galaxies are those that were created for simpler spirit/mind/body (without the veil) and those further out, like ours, for spirit/mind/body complexes.  And then we can assume that as soon as the veil is there, STS arises.  Meaning that this "insanity" was always a potential inside the Creator (inside us) and was automatically revealed as soon as it was given an outlet to do so (the veil).

Our evilness was always there, but we could not see it before the veiling.  So then it's not a mistake, since all already is and we can just become aware of it.  But at least I think we could say it was a surprise.  So even if this octave was not planned with STS in mind, things were all quickly rearranged to use this new concept of polarity to enhance the play pretty much everywhere.

This leaves me with a lot to ponder on the nature of our shadow selves.  Like how could we create a plane of experience that would allow this side of our selves to fully express itself without it being at the expanse of the rest ?  Maybe that is a big theme being explored in the next octave or even this one.

[Aion]

The Law of Non Repetition is just that the Creator will not allow itself to get stuck for infinity in a loop repeating the truly same experiences.  So any repetition that occurs is not really a repetition, it might seam so to us, but some parameters are always different thus it's not exactly the same experience.  The way the Creation is setup, it is not possible to repeat EXACTLY the VERY SAME experience.

---

That's interesting.  So when this solar system was created, the saga of polarities was already discovered at the time.  That is probably the case for all galaxies then.  The solar systems closer to the center of the galaxies are those that were created for simpler spirit/mind/body (without the veil) and those further out, like ours, for spirit/mind/body complexes.  And then we can assume that as soon as the veil is there, STS arises.  Meaning that this "insanity" was always a potential inside the Creator (inside us) and was automatically revealed as soon as it was given an outlet to do so (the veil).

Our evilness was always there, but we could not see it before the veiling.  So then it's not a mistake, since all already is and we can just become aware of it.  But at least I think we could say it was a surprise.  So even if this octave was not planned with STS in mind, things were all quickly rearranged to use this new concept of polarity to enhance the play pretty much everywhere.

This leaves me with a lot to ponder on the nature of our shadow selves.  Like how could we create a plane of experience that would allow this side of our selves to fully express itself without it being at the expanse of the rest ?  Maybe that is a big theme being explored in the next octave or even this one.

Oh it was certainly a surprise for all those individuated consciousness involved with the emergence of this pattern on this plane, but certainly not surprising for those entities who have come to participate in this universal game.
I get what you mean, I've referred to that concept as "Absolute Uniqueness".

That is running along similar lines to my own thoughts, and I would say that there is a bit of a hint that Ra drops regarding the shadow.

80.8 Questioner: I am sorry for my lack of penetration of these mechanisms and I apologize for some rather stupid questions, but I think we have here a point that is somewhat central to what we are presently attempting to understand, so even though my next questions may be almost unacceptably stupid, I will attempt to try to understand what this power that our visitor seeks is and how he uses it. For it seems to me that this is central to the mind and the evolution of it in which we are involved.
As this entity that is our visitor increases his power through these works, what is the power that he increases? Can you describe it?

Ra: I am Ra. The power of which you speak is a spiritual power. The powers of the mind, as such, do not encompass such works as these. You may, with some fruitfulness, consider the possibilities of moonlight. You are aware that we have described the Matrix of the Spirit as a night. The moonlight, then, offers either a true picture seen in shadow or chimera and falsity. The power of falsity is deep as is the power to discern truth from shadow. The shadow of hidden things is an infinite depth in which is stored the power of the One Infinite Creator.

The adept, then, is working with the power of hidden things illuminated by that which can be false or true. To embrace falsity, to know it, to seek it, and to use it gives a power that is most great. This is the nature of the power of your visitor and may shed some light upon the power of one who seeks in order to serve others as well, for the missteps in the night are oh! so easy.

106.23 Questioner: I would just ask if there’s anything we can do to help the instrument and make her more comfortable or improve the contact, and what would be the soonest Ra would recommend the next contact? And we would certainly— I would certainly appreciate the return of the golden hawk. It gave me great comfort.

Ra: I am Ra. You have complete freedom to schedule workings.

We suggest the nature of all manifestation to be illusory and functional only insofar as the entity turns from shape and shadow to the One.

I am Ra. We leave you, my friends, in the love and the glorious light of the One Infinite Creator. Go forth, then, rejoicing in the power and in the peace of the One Infinite Creator. Adonai.

97.9 Questioner: Possibly I didn’t phrase that the way I meant to, which was: we already have determined the items that should be removed from the first four cards. The question was: have I missed anything that should be removed which were not of Ra’s original intention in the last few sessions of determining what should be removed?

Ra: I am Ra. We shall repeat our opinion that there are several concepts which, in each image, are astrologically based. However, these concepts are not without merit within the concept complex intended by Ra, given the perception by the student of these concepts in an appropriate manner.

We wish not to form that which may be considered by any mind/body/spirit complex to be a complete and infallible series of images. There is a substantial point to be made in this regard. We have been, with the questioner’s aid, investigating the concept complexes of the great architecture of the archetypical mind. To more clearly grasp the nature, the process, and the purpose of archetypes, Ra provided a series of concept complexes. In no way whatsoever should we, as humble messengers of the One Infinite Creator, wish to place before the consideration of any mind/body/spirit complex which seeks its evolution the palest tint of the idea that these images are anything but a resource for working in the area of the development of the faith and the will.

To put this into perspective we must gaze then at the stunning mystery of the One Infinite Creator. The archetypical mind does not resolve any paradox or bring all into unity. This is not the property of any resource which is of the third density. Therefore, may we ask the student to look up from inward working and behold the glory, the might, the majesty, the mystery, and the peace of oneness. Let no consideration of bird or beast, darkness or light, shape or shadow keep any which seeks from the central consideration of unity.

We are not messengers of the complex. We bring the message of unity. In this perspective only may we affirm the value to the seeker of adepthood of the grasping, articulating, and use of this resource of the deep mind exemplified by the concept complexes of the archetypes.

And last but the most important quote:

79.29 Questioner: Now we are getting to what I was trying to determine. Then at this point were there still only nine archetypes and the veil had just been drawn between the Matrix and Potentiator?

Ra: I am Ra. There were nine archetypes and many shadows.

79.30 Questioner: By shadows do you mean what I might refer to as the birthing of small archetypical biases?

Ra: I am Ra. Rather we would describe these shadows as the inchoate thoughts of helpful structures not yet fully conceived.

"helpful structures not yet fully conceived"

This reminds me of Ra's comment on "well-intentioned slavery".
What is a shadow but something that is not yet brought to light?

What is another way to decribe something that is obscured or hidden? It is a mystery.

28.16 Questioner: Are you saying then there are an infinite number of octaves of densities one through eight?

Ra: I am Ra. We wish to establish that we are truly humble messengers of the Law of One. We can speak to you of our experiences and our understandings and teach/learn in limited ways. However, we cannot speak in firm knowledge of all the creations. We know only that they are infinite. We assume an infinite number of octaves.

However, it has been impressed upon us by our own teachers that there is a mystery-clad unity of creation in which all consciousness periodically coalesces and again begins. Thus we can only say we assume an infinite progression though we understand it to be cyclical in nature and, as we have said, clad in mystery.

[Infinite Unity]

It occurs to me that Evil might have been invented by mistake.  I know there are no mistakes, so instead let's say it was invented by surprise then.

My intuition tells me that The One Infinite Creator (Love) does indeed exist even without a polar opposite (Fear).

As Ra says in 77.19:

...The, shall we say, saga of polarity, its consequences and limits, were unimagined until experienced...

I do not believe the intent of that Logos was to create evil/fear when the veil was invented.  So I believe Evil was pretty much invented by mistake.  Of course, now that STS does exist, we make the better of it, we learn from it and use it to contrast God's Love with it so that we see how great his Love is.  There was no need/intent to contrast it to that extent.

My hope now is that there will be no need to repeat this type of experience in the next Octave.  Imagine trying to invent ways of contrasting the true nature of the Creator with even more separation, fear, suffering and sorrow than what is already possible in this octave.

So, for the next octave, I cast my vote for a design where all experiences are ALWAYS fun.  There has to be ways of contrasting/polarizing efficiently without STS.  Things we can't even imagine at the moment.

My friends, what are your thoughts on the subject ?

Unintended consequences while basically the same as a mistake, better elucidates it to me. Apart of the gap between knowing and unknowing exists the potential of “evil”. It’s like poison that must potentially exist, so non-understanding, or confusion exists.

The confusion is almost like a spring loading, and the greater the differential between knowing and confusion, the greater the spring can be loaded. The force built up in the spring is like the potential in the system, for freedom of will/movement for The Creator, and also the potential for growth.

At the end of the day, there is only Creator. So there is no one else to ask if things are like able, worth exploring, or acceptable. So when we observe/experience atrocities, while still gravely different then how I view reality, or would wish things to happen, it’s still different at the highest level. When understood there is One.
———————
The shadows of unseen things.

It’s like all of reality existed potentially from One moment. But yet is still forming/crystallizing in what we think of as the past. As you move closer to “present” Or through the future infinitely towards “The Present”. Then there is the true present moment which is perfect All Things Are Formed, and Know takes place. One does not truly move through past or future One is Always Present In One Moment.

[AnthroHeart]

Ra said there are no mistakes, but there are surprises.

[JJCarsonian]

STs is a byproduct of the veil. It wasn’t intended, but the creator welcomes all experiences.

[Black Dragon]

The issue comes when you realize you can choose to be the spider or the fly. More interesting when you realize you are both.

What if I'd just rather be like a stegosaur or triceratops and say f*** you to the whole predator/prey dynamic...don't go out and eat others but don't just passively let myself or others I care about be eaten without a fight? If that's who I really am as a person in my heart and my principles, and I don't believe in the virtue of a system of predators and prey other than as an engine to generate misery...then am I not "good enough" to evolve in the polarity system? Am I an ignoramus in the sinkhole of indifference because I consciously cannot bring myself to conform to such a system that conflicts with my heart-centered and transcendent principles? To me, the sinkhole of indifference would be not knowing or caring there's a choice to be made. What about seeing two bad choices and consciously choosing an option that's neither?

I'm thinking maybe it's not as much a third divergent path, but more of a difference in how I define certain aspects of what it means to be STO. Out of STS and STO, I'd consider myself STO. I would like to express that in a way that does not automatically correspond to "prey" or "martyrdom". If that makes me a bit of a rebel in the eyes of the logos or whole polarity dynamic, so be it. Those are my principles, and no authority will coerce me to relinquish them to earn brownie points in some polarity game. If anything with my viewpoint or principles changes, it is of my own free will and volition, and because I've consciously seen a new perspective, not because I "have to" in order to fit some other being or system's definition of polarity progress.

Honestly, I'd rather be a symbiotic being in a win-win symbiotic system where everyone works together and doesn't "eat each other"-but if I'm forced to live in a reality where there is a predator/prey dynamic and I'm unable to fully realize that symbiotic way of life, than I'd at least rather be the stegosaur than some ravening wolf or pitiful sheep. I feel deep down that I've had enough life times as both to realize I don't want to be either.

[Aion]

That is then the interesting choice that arises when you have seen extreme dualities within one's experience I think. Realizing you are both, you see they are not the only options and are able to move beyond the duality. You realize that unified you are not one thing or the other, but can freely choose the attributes of which your personality partakes.

[Diana]

@ Black Dragon: I totally understand your point of view. I've always been a fan of Kirk's solution to the Kobayashi Maru.

[Sacred Fool]

Am I an ignoramus in the sinkhole of indifference ...?

 
If I had to guess, I might think this is a stroke of genuine insight.  Why?  Because you seem to see the universe as being a reflection of your personal mood, regardless of how your moods shift.  If the universe is that flexible, then choosing to focus repeatedly on anger and violence seems like stinkin' sinkhole to me. 
Just my opinion, of course.  Probably just my own delusion.
  
  

[Minyatur]

I doubt there is Love without Fear as that would be against the nature of Unity, though fear can be infinitely (or perhaps near-infinitely) unfocused in a finite experience. The polar opposite of Love to me is more indifference than fear, as there is no fear without love.  

I think you struggle with a similar concept to one that Don struggled with:

16.53 Questioner: All right. Continuing with what we were just talking about, namely densities: I understand then that each density has seven sub-densities which again have seven sub-densities which again have seven sub-densities. This expands at an extremely large rate as things are increased in powers of seven. Does this mean that in any density level anything that you can think of is happening? And many things that you never thought of are happening… are there… everything is happening… this is confusing…

Ra: I am Ra. From your confusion we select the concept with which you struggle, that being infinite opportunity. You may consider any possibility/probability complex as having an existence.

In the Creator knowing Itself, there is only its own Infinity to discover and everything is there in true simultaneity. Remember, free will is merely the first distortion, or illusion, of experience and as per the material this distortion means that the Creator will know Itself. If the purpose of the Logos is to know both Itself and Love, then discovering evil is more of a result of that seeking than a mistake.

There is this quote that seem to give a good idea of how the usage of the veil has been seen and appreciated by the Logoi:

Those Logoi whose creations have been set up without free will have not, in the feeling of those Logoi, given the Creator the quality and variety of experience of Itself as have those Logoi which have incorporated free will as paramount. Thusly you find those Logoi moving through the timeless states at what you would see as a later space/time to choose the free will character when elucidating the foundations of each Logos.

It is all to offer you a quality experience, are you not entertained Creator?

It is possible that at some nexus the Logos thought that its Creation was meant to be eternal fun, but to me that sounds like a child that thinks its life will be to forever remain with its parents. A limited point of view knows not better until a need comes to expand these limits. Every Octave is a finite focus upon infinity, a limited point of view of what the One Infinite Creator is, and they expand until the limit of it is unneeded.

[Patrick]

Oh I'm entertained.

But I have already cast my vote that we don't need to repeat that type of experience in the next octave. Don't know if it's a democracy though.

Fear is that which is not. So Love exist without fear. But we might not be aware of its greatness without contrasting it.

[Aion]

All this concern about other octaves and eternity and whatnot.

That's all going to melt away in timelessness anyways.

Personally I prefer not to idealize through avoidance.

[Patrick]

I was just imagining being tortured in a new kind of body in the next octave where we have new unimaginable ways of feeling. I do not believe we need to go down that rabbit hole. Forever having new ways of suffering ever deeper and more completely in each subsequent octave.

But yes, freedom is paramount, and so some entities will want that maybe. We just need to find a way to not make it mandatory for each entities to go through this experience like is the case with us right now.

[AnthroHeart]

I was just imagining being tortured in a new kind of body in the next octave where we have new unimaginable ways of feeling. I do not believe we need to go down that rabbit hole. Forever having new ways of suffering ever deeper and more completely in each subsequent octave.

But yes, freedom is paramount, and so some entities will want that maybe. We just need to find a way to not make it mandatory for each entities to go through this experience like is the case with us right now.

What if suffering is no longer a concept in the next Octave, but there are other concepts?

Suffering seems so superficial in some ways compared to the infinite potentiality of an Octave.

These "new unimaginable ways of feeling" are infinitely all possible in THIS Octave, as THIS Octave is infinite.

We can't really even conceive of what the next Octave will be.

Who even knows if the next Octave will have any physicality at all, let alone a body.
You could be a Universal consciousness by then and choose your experience.
As we approach Creator, and become All That Is, the Creator will change, and it will be that much more to approach and become ONE with, or simply, to become.
I find it funny that we can even get to the next Octave, because we are in this one forever/timeless.

[Diana]

All this concern about other octaves and eternity and whatnot.

That's all going to melt away in timelessness anyways.

Personally I prefer not to idealize through avoidance.

I think it's fun to speculate on any subject, but I agree with this. We are here and we are wise to focus on dealing with what is (here, now).

It is possible that at some nexus the Logos thought that its Creation was meant to be eternal fun, but to me that sounds like a child that thinks its life will be to forever remain with its parents. A limited point of view knows not better until a need comes to expand these limits. Every Octave is a finite focus upon infinity, a limited point of view of what the One Infinite Creator is, and they expand until the limit of it is unneeded.

Brilliant analogy.

It is all to offer you a quality experience, are you not entertained Creator?

This is the part that rubs me the wrong way. The idea of evolution and expansion of consciousness in the big picture seems to align with the natural flow of movement in this existence. In the focused picture—here in 3D—it's questionable in my mind to create the veil in order to enrich or speed up this evolution. I comprehend the rich experience it offers, and feel that even in my own life. But I wonder if it's worth it when so many suffer because of the veil.

Some of the posts here and channelings (Q'uo, not Ra), remind me of the Christian God and just accepting what "He" doles out and worshiping "Him" just because—why? I have never been inclined to do that. And I'm not inclined to like the veil because it makes the Creator's experience better. However, underneath any considerations for a Creator or even the Logos is the structure of this reality which can be aligned with and cooperated with, and in that I am grateful for the archetypes as given by Ra.

There is a place in the world for rebels, and I guess I will always be that.

[hounsic]

There is a place in the world for rebels, and I guess I will always be that.

Diana

Love that!

[Minyatur]

This is the part that rubs me the wrong way. The idea of evolution and expansion of consciousness in the big picture seems to align with the natural flow of movement in this existence. In the focused picture—here in 3D—it's questionable in my mind to create the veil in order to enrich or speed up this evolution. I comprehend the rich experience it offers, and feel that even in my own life. But I wonder if it's worth it when so many suffer because of the veil.

I think that is kind of where the Law of One comes in to resolve paradoxes. There are no many, there is One, even in all suffering.

So the usage of the veil becomes questionable in the sense of if it is worth it for One to chose to suffer through many forms. Maybe if you spent eons over eons without any type of suffering, then the idea becomes somewhat interesting to diversify what you can experience yourself as. To really understand how any choice is made, one needs to understand the vantage point of where that choice comes from and that is quite the challenge to the veiled human mind in regard to this experiment. I believe our truest nature is that of eternity and as such all that is within this Octave and beyond it is there to satisfy the eternity of ourselves. The need is rooted in you, it does not come from anywhere else and the answer to it does not satisfy anything other either.

Some of the posts here and channelings (Q'uo, not Ra), remind me of the Christian God and just accepting what "He" doles out and worshiping "Him" just because—why? I have never been inclined to do that. And I'm not inclined to like the veil because it makes the Creator's experience better. However, underneath any considerations for a Creator or even the Logos is the structure of this reality which can be aligned with and cooperated with, and in that I am grateful for the archetypes as given by Ra.

There is a place in the world for rebels, and I guess I will always be that.

I do agree Q'uo channelings can be a whole lot awkward. To me though, faith in the Creator comes from developing a relationship with it and it is in knowledge that misunderstandings can fall away.

It is funny how we all seem to have a certain role within things. To a certain extent, I resonate with being some kind of mediator and that would require incorporating within one's soul all kinds of experiences.

[Aion]

I would encourage the contemplation that our contemplations are those of the Creator, I think it's an interesting perspective to take personally. Just food for thought.

There is a 'reason' that there is a "what is" and a "what is not", or rather perhaps you could say a function more appropriately.

How do you know that you suffer? What is the basis for this consideration?

Further, how will you know when that suffering has ceased?

I like to do an exercise where when I'm reading people's posts or my own and I try to change out every pronoun or name for "Creator".
Everywhere there is "you" or "I" as well, change in to the Creator.

It yields a very interesting reading of many posts, in my experience anyways.