Occult, Qabalah, Golden Dawn disillusionment

[anagogy]

its not fully clear as to if they are talking about the greater octave or the sub octave, since no direct mention of the suboctave is made i can only assume that it is the greater octave.

I've actually researched some threads on this question and answer (and similar ones). And I even created a thread on the general subject. The consensus in those threads is that the question and answer is referring to the sub-densities. And if that is the case, then Aion is right about Ra telling him that enlightenment is graduation to 4D.

I personally disagree with that assertion. In my opinion, they are referring to the whole system in this particular section. Specifically, the physical bodies of the system.

[Nicholas]

Having studied now for the last couple of years, the so called western mystery tradition

Go with me buddy on this one. 

Have you ever studied a sand stone paving slab or the pattern of tree bark?  You may gain greater clarity in the mundane features of life that we pass by every day of our lives.

The testing upon the cessation of the incarnative state is not that testing which involves the correct memorization of many details. This testing is, rather, the observing of self by self, often with aid as we have said. In this observation one sees the sum of all the detailed study; that being an attitude or complex of attitudes which bias the consciousness of the mind/body/spirit.

[Lighthead]

its not fully clear as to if they are talking about the greater octave or the sub octave, since no direct mention of the suboctave is made i can only assume that it is the greater octave.

I've actually researched some threads on this question and answer (and similar ones). And I even created a thread on the general subject. The consensus in those threads is that the question and answer is referring to the sub-densities. And if that is the case, then Aion is right about Ra telling him that enlightenment is graduation to 4D.

I personally disagree with that assertion.  In my opinion, they are referring to the whole system in this particular section.  Specifically, the physical bodies of the system.

Well, not to start another argument, but pretty much everyone that would disagree with you on the subject has moved on from this board.

[Nicholas]

A personal disagreement takes nothing away from your personal research Lighthead 

[Lighthead]

A personal disagreement takes nothing away from your personal research Lighthead 

Thanks, Nicholas. I appreciate it. And anagogy did take part in those threads, by the way.

[Nicholas]

Yeah but dude, this is one of the most beautiful metaphors I have come across in this forum!

"A single thread in a tapestry, though its color brightly shines, can never see its purpose in the pattern of the grand design."

[Aion]

Also, all that being said, I am actually infinitely more familiar with meditation and its techniques than I am with ritual magic which is something I have explored very slowly over a period of time while actually just meditating daily. However, my beliefs and view of reality has opened up ritual work fairly easily for me. The hard part is getting to know the tools.

You say you believe in the power of symbols. You can view a ritual as a 'symbol complex', it is the careful arrangement of concepts and energies. Of course, the thing that draws me to ritual magic is the point that is most refuted by modern magicians and that is the reality of entities, thought-forms and deities. Most modern magicians hold a view similar to Matt1, seeing these things as psychology. I, however, believe that is only one level of these things and it is much weirder and mysterious than people know.

Of course, I actually know and have spoken with Golden Dawn adepts and the interesting thing is that they all also went through a period of skepticism regarding the realities of the practice.

Now, that being said, I think I am weird even by magicians standards. I have mostly seen people approach it from the 'aspect of the self' perception but I admit that I genuinely believe in the actual existence of other entities, deities and higher planes of vibration and reality.

So, while some may invoke an elemental or something and feel they are just interacting with a self-reflection I believe it's possible to interact with actual entities. However, I think this depends on a willingness to see them as such, to see them as an other-self.

I actually see what you said there as fascinating, but to me it seems overly complicated in practical reality. Did you have an early exposure to ritual magic? Early in life?

Honestly it's always sort of been within me. I remember seeing visions of rituals as I was growing up and understood it but it wasn't until after high school that I actually learned what it all was. So I knew these things without knowing what they were called.

Sure it seems overly complicated, but that's because it's a sophisticated system. The way it was expressed to me is that different systems have different functions. For an analogy, a space station and a bicycle are both vehicles but they have very different levels of sophistication. Bicycles are still cool, but they can't do what a space station does, just as a space station won't be able to accomplish simply what the bike is able to do easily. You have to choose your tools.

There are much simpler forms of ritual magic that aren't quite as in depth as some others. I actually have more experience with pagan/druidic rituals than I do with WMT. However, that being said, can I ask you, when you meditate is there any way you usually like to start or a particular space or position you like to be in?

That's an interesting analogy. I hadn't thought about it in quite that way.

When I meditate, in the first five minutes or so, nothing is being accomplished. The only thing that is being accomplished is that I'm going more inwards. But as to answer your question more directly, I don't have a particular focus when I begin my meditation. I just let the thoughts flow in and out. I don't focus on any one thought or try to eliminate any thoughts. That's exactly what shikantaza is. I don't focus on my breath or anything. I just let the thoughts come in and out. I don't feel any sense of bliss in these first five minutes or so. Like I said, it's just a proxy to allow my mind to go deeper. For me this is much more effective than focusing on your breath. I can't speak for anybody else, but this technique is absolute magic for me. Maybe it's just the way my brain is wired.

Why do you ask?

I think you do have a focus, it's just abstract. I more mean before you actually start meditating, or do you just sit down anywhere and do it? Are there any regular times you prefer to do it?

[Lighthead]

That's an interesting analogy. I hadn't thought about it in quite that way.

When I meditate, in the first five minutes or so, nothing is being accomplished. The only thing that is being accomplished is that I'm going more inwards. But as to answer your question more directly, I don't have a particular focus when I begin my meditation. I just let the thoughts flow in and out. I don't focus on any one thought or try to eliminate any thoughts. That's exactly what shikantaza is. I don't focus on my breath or anything. I just let the thoughts come in and out. I don't feel any sense of bliss in these first five minutes or so. Like I said, it's just a proxy to allow my mind to go deeper. For me this is much more effective than focusing on your breath. I can't speak for anybody else, but this technique is absolute magic for me. Maybe it's just the way my brain is wired.

Why do you ask?

I think you do have a focus, it's just abstract. I more mean before you actually start meditating, or do you just sit down anywhere and do it? Are there any regular times you prefer to do it?

I sometimes have a focus before I meditate. I'll just try to center myself and remind myself not to cling to my thoughts or whatever I learned in the previous "session." I meditate while lying down on my bed in my room. My back starts to hurt too much if I'm in a sitting posture, and I just can't get comfortable in general enough to not be distracted. I do have a regular time. I have a regular time because it helps me be consistent with my meditation. I meditate for an hour beginning at 9:00 pm, roughly. The reason I do it so late is because I feel that no one's going to bother me at that time. But I do have to be disciplined as far as that time goes. I take a medicine that makes me sleepy at around that time. So if I take the medicine at around 8:00 pm, that makes me sleepy during my meditation. So I try to take my medicine at around 8:30 or later. And when I drink my medicine I only take two sips of liquid at the most and leave the rest for after I meditate, or else I want to use the bathroom while I meditate.

I find it interesting and strange that you're asking me this. This is something that I've wanted to share, but I haven't had a chance to tell anyone.

[Aion]

That's an interesting analogy. I hadn't thought about it in quite that way.

When I meditate, in the first five minutes or so, nothing is being accomplished. The only thing that is being accomplished is that I'm going more inwards. But as to answer your question more directly, I don't have a particular focus when I begin my meditation. I just let the thoughts flow in and out. I don't focus on any one thought or try to eliminate any thoughts. That's exactly what shikantaza is. I don't focus on my breath or anything. I just let the thoughts come in and out. I don't feel any sense of bliss in these first five minutes or so. Like I said, it's just a proxy to allow my mind to go deeper. For me this is much more effective than focusing on your breath. I can't speak for anybody else, but this technique is absolute magic for me. Maybe it's just the way my brain is wired.

Why do you ask?

I think you do have a focus, it's just abstract. I more mean before you actually start meditating, or do you just sit down anywhere and do it? Are there any regular times you prefer to do it?

I sometimes have a focus before I meditate. I'll just try to center myself and remind myself not to cling to my thoughts or whatever I learned in the previous "session." I meditate while lying down on my bed in my room. My back starts to hurt too much if I'm in a sitting posture, and I just can't get comfortable in general enough to not be distracted. I do have a regular time. I have a regular time because it helps me be consistent with my meditation. I meditate for an hour beginning at 9:00 pm, roughly. The reason I do it so late is because I feel that no one's going to bother me at that time. But I do have to be disciplined as far as that time goes. I take a medicine that makes me sleepy at around that time. So if I take the medicine at around 8:00 pm, that makes me sleepy during my meditation. So I try to take my medicine at around 8:30 or later. And when I drink my medicine I only take two sips of liquid at the most and leave the rest for after I meditate, or else I want to use the bathroom while I meditate.

I find it interesting and strange that you're asking me this. This is something that I've wanted to share, but I haven't had a chance to tell anyone.

So this is my point - that is your ritual. I think that ritual is actually more like a western term for meditation rather than being something different. Meditation as a concept is derived largely from yoga as well as Buddhism and other such Eastern practices. The equivalent in the west is rituals, 'workings', 'exercises'. In this case the ritual is signified by consistency. There are 'chaotic' rituals but I don't personally believe they are the most efficient.

There are lots of different types of rituals just as there different kinds of meditations. For example, your meditation ritual at 9pm is a daily ritual which, as it appears to me, is your form of 'spiritual hygiene', the way in which you collect yourself back in to your center. This is good to do regularly for anyone because it releases excesses in the mind, body and spirit. So with that in mind you can see why shikantaza is an effective practice for you.

Now, that being said, like the bicycle or space station, the technique will be limited in its mode of transformation of your consciousness, just as it will be able to do thing others techniques won't.

[Lighthead]

I sometimes have a focus before I meditate. I'll just try to center myself and remind myself not to cling to my thoughts or whatever I learned in the previous "session." I meditate while lying down on my bed in my room. My back starts to hurt too much if I'm in a sitting posture, and I just can't get comfortable in general enough to not be distracted. I do have a regular time. I have a regular time because it helps me be consistent with my meditation. I meditate for an hour beginning at 9:00 pm, roughly. The reason I do it so late is because I feel that no one's going to bother me at that time. But I do have to be disciplined as far as that time goes. I take a medicine that makes me sleepy at around that time. So if I take the medicine at around 8:00 pm, that makes me sleepy during my meditation. So I try to take my medicine at around 8:30 or later. And when I drink my medicine I only take two sips of liquid at the most and leave the rest for after I meditate, or else I want to use the bathroom while I meditate.

I find it interesting and strange that you're asking me this. This is something that I've wanted to share, but I haven't had a chance to tell anyone.

So this is my point - that is your ritual. I think that ritual is actually more like a western term for meditation rather than being something different. Meditation as a concept is derived largely from yoga as well as Buddhism and other such Eastern practices. The equivalent in the west is rituals, 'workings', 'exercises'. In this case the ritual is signified by consistency. There are 'chaotic' rituals but I don't personally believe they are the most efficient.

There are lots of different types of rituals just as there different kinds of meditations. For example, your meditation ritual at 9pm is a daily ritual which, as it appears to me, is your form of 'spiritual hygiene', the way in which you collect yourself back in to your center. This is good to do regularly for anyone because it releases excesses in the mind, body and spirit. So with that in mind you can see why shikantaza is an effective practice for you.

Now, that being said, like the bicycle or space station, the technique will be limited in its mode of transformation of your consciousness, just as it will be able to do thing others techniques won't.

That's pretty interesting. I would have never thought of a meditation routine as a ritual, but when you break it down like that, it makes sense.

Do you see any link with OCD "rituals" and magic rituals?

I would like to study Teutonic magic, but it frustrates me that I don't really have privacy. I don't think that there's a way to work around that limitation. Maybe I should just study the cosmology since I'm so into it. But seeing everything as a ritual will allow me to not get frustrated if I see something that doesn't jibe with my belief system in that system. I can see it as that system's way to achieve consistency if I can extrapolate from what you're saying.

[Aion]

I sometimes have a focus before I meditate. I'll just try to center myself and remind myself not to cling to my thoughts or whatever I learned in the previous "session." I meditate while lying down on my bed in my room. My back starts to hurt too much if I'm in a sitting posture, and I just can't get comfortable in general enough to not be distracted. I do have a regular time. I have a regular time because it helps me be consistent with my meditation. I meditate for an hour beginning at 9:00 pm, roughly. The reason I do it so late is because I feel that no one's going to bother me at that time. But I do have to be disciplined as far as that time goes. I take a medicine that makes me sleepy at around that time. So if I take the medicine at around 8:00 pm, that makes me sleepy during my meditation. So I try to take my medicine at around 8:30 or later. And when I drink my medicine I only take two sips of liquid at the most and leave the rest for after I meditate, or else I want to use the bathroom while I meditate.

I find it interesting and strange that you're asking me this. This is something that I've wanted to share, but I haven't had a chance to tell anyone.

So this is my point - that is your ritual. I think that ritual is actually more like a western term for meditation rather than being something different. Meditation as a concept is derived largely from yoga as well as Buddhism and other such Eastern practices. The equivalent in the west is rituals, 'workings', 'exercises'. In this case the ritual is signified by consistency. There are 'chaotic' rituals but I don't personally believe they are the most efficient.

There are lots of different types of rituals just as there different kinds of meditations. For example, your meditation ritual at 9pm is a daily ritual which, as it appears to me, is your form of 'spiritual hygiene', the way in which you collect yourself back in to your center. This is good to do regularly for anyone because it releases excesses in the mind, body and spirit. So with that in mind you can see why shikantaza is an effective practice for you.

Now, that being said, like the bicycle or space station, the technique will be limited in its mode of transformation of your consciousness, just as it will be able to do thing others techniques won't.

That's pretty interesting. I would have never thought of a meditation routine as a ritual, but when you break it down like that, it makes sense.

Do you see any link with OCD "rituals" and magic rituals?

I would like to study Teutonic magic, but it frustrates me that I don't really have privacy. I don't think that there's a way to work around that limitation. Maybe I should just study the cosmology since I'm so into it. But seeing everything as a ritual will allow me to not get frustrated if I see something that doesn't jibe with my belief system in that system. I can see it as that system's way to achieve consistency if I can extrapolate from what you're saying.

I have considered that and I think that ritual/meditation is a sort of instinctual mechanism which can be taken to a conscious level. So really, I think everyone has little rituals they engage in. However, I would bring the point around to function. You could consider an OCD compulsion to be like a ritual in concept, but different in function. You could maybe even see it that those whom are drawn strongly to ordered ritual magic may have some manner of spiritual OCD. Or, people are just built differently and you can do away with labels, which I what I do.

I always try to look at my situation in terms of how it has me positioned to do certain things in my life. For you, perhaps at the moment you don't have as much space for practice but you do have space for study. In that case I would assume this is a period of study for you. When you are ready for practice your life will naturally grow in to its space.

[Aion]

Also, a word on studying any kind of 'ancient' magic is context! Keep in mind the times and culture these things were founded. You can view different magical systems as being like technical languages. Such as how biologists, lawyers and mathematicians all have different technical languages they use to understand eachother the same is true for magic. The reason for all of the complexity is because you have to learn the language of symbols in which magic is spoken and conveyed. People take it that it's just being overly complicated for no reason. The fact is that all the symbols, correspondences and such are part of the technical language of the system.

The Golden Dawn system is like a space station in its sophistication, whereas another system might be more like a car or a bicycle. Unnecessary? Perhaps. Depends if you are trying to get down the road or to the moon.

[Matt1]

its not fully clear as to if they are talking about the greater octave or the sub octave, since no direct mention of the suboctave is made i can only assume that it is the greater octave.

I've actually researched some threads on this question and answer (and similar ones). And I even created a thread on the general subject. The consensus in those threads is that the question and answer is referring to the sub-densities. And if that is the case, then Aion is right about Ra telling him that enlightenment is graduation to 4D.

Can you link the threads? Which are in direct relation to this quote? I am open to the idea that this is a sub octave rather than the greater octave, but even if it were the suboctave the same ideas would be reflected through the densities. Such as Red of Green, Orange of Green, Yellow of Green etc.

[Aion]

Well in Buddhism, just as an example, there are Arhats which are said to have achieved the Four States of Enlightenment and be 'perfected persons' but who may or may not have become Buddhas.

[Matt1]

Saying that just ordered Kabbalah tarot books on amazon haha. I guess the path does continue after all. I think i just hit needed to vent out some energy. I stopped reading Gareth Knights books on the tarot, it was to Biblical based for me. Perhaps a fresh look at the paths from a tarot view will freshen things up. Indeed!

[Aion]

There are some very biased writers even who write from Golden Dawn and similar perspectives. I am learning more and more that you can't judge any system by just a few writings. You need to see as many different perspectives on it as possible to really see what might be in it for yourself. Have you read any Manly P. Hall? Not Golden Dawn, but has a fresh (well for his time) look at occultism.

[Matt1]

I have checked out his major work, the secret teaching of the ages if i recall the title. Interesting. However i am mostly staying clear from occult or esoterica that is rather dated, i feel i need a fresh modern view on the occult. Rather than anything with the mind set of someone 50 to 100 years ago. Although i do respect the older teachings they are golden but dated.

[Lighthead]

its not fully clear as to if they are talking about the greater octave or the sub octave, since no direct mention of the suboctave is made i can only assume that it is the greater octave.

I've actually researched some threads on this question and answer (and similar ones). And I even created a thread on the general subject. The consensus in those threads is that the question and answer is referring to the sub-densities. And if that is the case, then Aion is right about Ra telling him that enlightenment is graduation to 4D.

Can you link the threads? Which are in direct relation to this quote? I am open to the idea that this is a sub octave rather than the greater octave, but even if it were the suboctave the same ideas would be reflected through the densities. Such as Red of Green, Orange of Green, Yellow of Green etc.

In my thread this is where Aaron links to another thread. He also posts some information as to how to find out more about it on the forum:

http://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthrea...#pid182296

[Aion]

I have checked out his major work, the secret teaching of the ages if i recall the title. Interesting. However i am mostly staying clear from occult or esoterica that is rather dated, i feel i need a fresh modern view on the occult. Rather than anything with the mind set of someone 50 to 100 years ago. Although i do respect the older teachings they are golden but dated.

Well I will ask my GD friends if they have any modern recommendations if you like?

[Lighthead]

I found this interesting article on Buddhist magic. I did a Google search. Bookmarked...

The Buddhist Perspective on Magic and Supernatural

Edit: Sorry for the long wait to edit this, Parsons. I've been trying to spend way less time on Bring 4th, so I didn't see your thread.

[Aion]

I have checked out his major work, the secret teaching of the ages if i recall the title. Interesting. However i am mostly staying clear from occult or esoterica that is rather dated, i feel i need a fresh modern view on the occult. Rather than anything with the mind set of someone 50 to 100 years ago. Although i do respect the older teachings they are golden but dated.

Well I will ask my GD friends if they have any modern recommendations if you like?

The first suggestion was 'The Essential Golden Dawn' by Chic and Tabatha Cicero.

[Matt1]

Already read that one.