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Occult, Qabalah, Golden Dawn disillusionment - Matt1 - 07-23-2015
Having studied now for the last couple of years, the so called western mystery tradition, i have to say i am starting to feel rather disillusioned by all of it for a good few reasons. I am not sure how familiar many of you will be with it here but in the west the occult was always a taboo subject and it was one of the only things i feel i hadn't really looked into, probably subconsciously for this reason. Having researched the history of the Western Mystery Tradition i have to say that it seems to all go back to different Christians in the middle ages. Hardly the origins one would assume for what is normally considered to be a negative or though wrongly so practice. The root of so called western eroticism and the WMT is none other than the Hermetic Qabalah. This was a system developed in Florence via the Medici platonic university by Giovanni pico della mirandola in the middle ages/early renaissance. He revived texts believed to be the tales of a wise pagan who foretold the coming of Christ as the texts were wrongly date. If it was discovered that they came from after the development of Christianity they would have most likely been burned and lost forever. However this was not the case. Giovanni translated these Hermetic Texts which was a rather strange cross over Esoteric tradition with the dual God of the Egyptian Thoth and the Greek called Hermes. Giovanni fused traditional Judaic Kabbalah developed a few hundred years earlier in Europe with Hermeticism, Gnosticism , Kabbalah and Christian Mysticism into what became the foundation of the Occult in the west.
Now through the teachings and developments of Mirandola and other Christian mystical thinkers a chap called Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa wrote a book called the Three Books of Occult Philosophy which is considered to be basically the roots of all the practical eroticism in the west which draws upon the mystery religions of antiquity and the work of different Christian Qabalists of the time. The glypth we received from this time period of the Qabalah comes from a Jesuit priest by the name of Athanasius Kircher and its still the main one that is used today by those who study in the WMT, he also interestingly enough added Egyptian mythology to the Western Qabalah. The tradition of the Occult grow out of Christian roots, many of whom were simply trying to convert Jews by using the Qabalah to prove the divinity of Christ. Even the famed Pentagram is simply pentagrammaton of Yod Heh Shin Vav Heh or the Hebrew name Yeshua or Jesus. Now a lot of the teachings went underground into different orders like the Rosicrucian's , although people still debate if such a grow really existed or not. It all comes back into the open in the Victorian age when a few Freemasons and who were also Rosicrucian's in England created a Pesudo Masonic order called the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. A lot of things were developed and added into this system of magick. Basically the Qabalah is the roots of the system and is the means that the esoteric grades are reached, through different rituals, divination and such. The order itself was based on a completely made up story about a secret Rosicrucian order in Europe giving them permission to start an order and finding a secret manuscript that was in fact developed by another Freemason. The order basically fall apart because of what can basically be summed up as ego issues with its members. The most famous member of the Golden Dawn was probably Crowley who taught the other big name Israel Regardie in occult matters, this is were we find all of the information getting made published for the first time. Now Ra basically said Crowley was highly distorted and i can only assume his material is like wise.
This rant may sound a little over the top but i am starting to feel rather disillusioned by the Occult in general. Once investigated it seems to not have the glamor nor a strong tradition that is at least fairly undistorted. On the other hand i find a lot of over the top rituals, lots of reading and memorizing , having to join occult orders to dress up in robes and dance about in what boils down to new aged guided meditations. I am sure people will disagree with what i have said but i cannot help but speak my mind on the subject. I am now getting more convinced that the only true spiritual practice is being the Love in the moment and Meditating, as well as having a far philosophical understanding through a good source such as the Ra material. So there you have it.
RE: Occult, Qabalah, Golden Dawn disillusionment - Aion - 07-23-2015
Maybe it's just not the tool that fits your own craft, that is perfectly well. Each tool has its own use and that's how I view pretty much any spiritual practice. That being said, may I ask if you have spoken with any adepts on the subject?
RE: Occult, Qabalah, Golden Dawn disillusionment - Aion - 07-23-2015
Hermetic Qabalah and its use in magic is theurgic in nature so while it is about your own evolution the point that I think is within the tradition is to do so in communion with other beings.
RE: Occult, Qabalah, Golden Dawn disillusionment - Matt1 - 07-23-2015
I have never spoken directly with an Adept of the WMT but i have spoken to a Lama which is basically the same idea from the east. I have however read lots of books and material written by the so called Adepts and i am having serious doubts about the system and its methods. The more i look into its history, its founding and its societies the more distorted it seems. Not in the negative sense of the word but in the corrupted, lost, confused , half baked sense.
Theurgy seems to be brought down from antiquity as nothing more than a type of prayer using the different correspondences of a sephiroth to invoke/evocate a spirit which i believe to be nothing more than an aspect of the personality.
RE: Occult, Qabalah, Golden Dawn disillusionment - Aion - 07-23-2015
Hmm, well I don't think I can have anything more to say on it. Your energy has that distinct stoic feeling of standing one's position. Not that there is anything wrong with your position, I just do not have anything worth offering to it at this time.
RE: Occult, Qabalah, Golden Dawn disillusionment - Plenum - 07-23-2015
(07-23-2015, 03:11 PM)Matt1 Wrote: I am now getting more convinced that the only true spiritual practice is being the Love in the moment and Meditating, as well as having a far philosophical understanding through a good source such as the Ra material. So there you have it.
Thanks for the honest self-expression.
You seem to waver a bit between the value of these mystery traditions, and their lack of effectiveness in being able to generate deep change.
Perhaps the issue here is, as Aion referenced, that you are studying it in isolation, rather than with other-selves.
I remember the huge leap in understanding and catalyst from reading the Law of One for years by myself (even though I had sparse contact with a few individual seekers), and joining this forum almost 4 years ago (about 4 months short of four years).
It is through positive interaction with other-selves that we can make the most progress on our path.
Ra Wrote:The various unmanifested activities of the self were found to be productive in some degree of penetration of the veil. In general, we may say that by far the most vivid and even extravagant opportunities for the piercing of the veil are a result of the interaction of polarized entities.
83.17 Questioner: Could you expand on what you mean by that interaction of polarized entities in piercing the veil?
Ra: I am Ra. We shall state two items of note. The first is the extreme potential for polarization in the relationship of two polarized entities which have embarked upon the service-to-others path or, in some few cases, the service-to-self path. Secondly, we would note that effect which we have learned to call the doubling effect. Those of like mind which together seek shall far more surely find.
RE: Occult, Qabalah, Golden Dawn disillusionment - Lighthead - 07-23-2015
I would try to get into the meditation practices of the far East (Buddhism). I find that Zen in particular gets to the root of reality. That stuff that you mentioned has a lot of illusory material that you have to sort through just to get a nugget of truth. I find that a lot of that stuff also has been influenced by negative entities either directly or indirectly (such as in Aleister Crowley's case).
As I've mentioned on other threads, I use a meditation technique called shikantaza. It's from the Soto school of Zen Buddhism. I've been practicing it on and off since about a year, but just in the last month or so, I've been at it pretty steadily. But I never realized at first that I was doing it wrong. The whole point is to let the thoughts flow freely in and out. Don't try to stop a thought or try to enhance a thought. Just let them flow freely, but try to practice not clinging to the thought. For example, if you start to feel oneness, don't try to accentuate the thought, just be completely detached from it. The strange thing is that when you have this attitude of non-attachment with your thoughts while meditating, it actually increases your sense of blissfulness during the period of meditation. Just remember that the non-attachment is a deep quality. If done right, it's not something that you can put your finger on while meditating. And it's not repressing your thoughts the way Ra advises us not to do. Let the thoughts flow, but with detachment. Don't get caught up in the experience because that actually makes it go away.
That other stuff is just filler (Golden Dawn, etc.). You want killer.
RE: Occult, Qabalah, Golden Dawn disillusionment - Aion - 07-23-2015
Funny how you can't commend your own practice without discrediting another in the process...
RE: Occult, Qabalah, Golden Dawn disillusionment - AnthroHeart - 07-23-2015
I'm glad there isn't only one path to nirvana.
RE: Occult, Qabalah, Golden Dawn disillusionment - Lighthead - 07-23-2015
(07-23-2015, 05:39 PM)Aion Wrote: Funny how you can't commend your own practice without discrediting another in the process...
Well it's not like I'm getting paid to "commend" them. I'm just sharing what has worked for me. That other stuff is about selling you a membership (at times), and they only offer you a drip of the truth at a time. The truth is simple: meditate and meditate the right way. Unfortunately, meditating the right way is something that you discover as you meditate. If you told someone to get from A to B, would you tell them to go from A to 3 to 10 to 5 to B? Why not just go right to the point? I even find it ironic that those Western mystery traditions are, more and more, incorporating traditions from the East. Doesn't that tell you something in and of itself?
Okay, let me ask you, what is the point of ritual magick? Let me just start by telling you that I'd be surprised if you could answer that question with one word.
RE: Occult, Qabalah, Golden Dawn disillusionment - Aion - 07-23-2015
(07-23-2015, 05:50 PM)Lighthead Wrote:(07-23-2015, 05:39 PM)Aion Wrote: Funny how you can't commend your own practice without discrediting another in the process...
Well it's not like I'm getting paid to "commend" them. I'm just sharing what has worked for me. That other stuff is about selling you a membership (at times), and they only offer you a drip of the truth at a time. The truth is simple: meditate and meditate the right way. Unfortunately, meditating the right way is something that you discover as you meditate. If you told someone to get from A to B, would you tell them to go from A to 3 to 10 to 5 to B? Why not just go right to the point? I even find it ironic that those Western mystery traditions are, more and more, incorporating traditions from the East. Doesn't that tell you something in and of itself?
Okay, let me ask you, what is the point of ritual magick? Let me just start by telling you that I'd be surprised if you could answer that question with one word.
Communion.
I don't see any need to 'defend' the different traditions, I just find your opinion somewhat snide. That it doesn't work for you or that you don't see merit in it doesn't define it or determine whether it is effective for someone else. It is well and good to express what has worked or not worked for you, but the attitude you're giving seems to be more of superiority.
RE: Occult, Qabalah, Golden Dawn disillusionment - outerheaven - 07-23-2015
Thanks for your perspective, Matt. I can relate: I feel the pull of any number of given topics but ultimately never truly go "all in" for various reasons. And so the search continues.
FYI, you have some rather large paragraphs in that OP. Personally, huge paragraphs are daunting to me and I'm less likely to actually read. I read it all, but I'm willing to bet more than a few people saw those big blocks of text and said "nah." If you care, you can greatly increase your readability if you separate your thoughts with timely paragraph breaks. If you don't care, ignore this.
RE: Occult, Qabalah, Golden Dawn disillusionment - Lighthead - 07-23-2015
(07-23-2015, 05:53 PM)Aion Wrote:(07-23-2015, 05:50 PM)Lighthead Wrote:(07-23-2015, 05:39 PM)Aion Wrote: Funny how you can't commend your own practice without discrediting another in the process...
Well it's not like I'm getting paid to "commend" them. I'm just sharing what has worked for me. That other stuff is about selling you a membership (at times), and they only offer you a drip of the truth at a time. The truth is simple: meditate and meditate the right way. Unfortunately, meditating the right way is something that you discover as you meditate. If you told someone to get from A to B, would you tell them to go from A to 3 to 10 to 5 to B? Why not just go right to the point? I even find it ironic that those Western mystery traditions are, more and more, incorporating traditions from the East. Doesn't that tell you something in and of itself?
Okay, let me ask you, what is the point of ritual magick? Let me just start by telling you that I'd be surprised if you could answer that question with one word.
Communion.
I don't see any need to 'defend' the different traditions, I just find your opinion somewhat snide. That it doesn't work for you or that you don't see merit in it doesn't define it or determine whether it is effective for someone else. It is well and good to express what has worked or not worked for you, but the attitude you're giving seems to be more of superiority.
That's such a vague sounding word. And you're the one insinuating that I'm trying to be superior. That wasn't my intention at all. It just seems that M1 is searching for something. I'm trying to offer assistance.
RE: Occult, Qabalah, Golden Dawn disillusionment - Minyatur - 07-23-2015
(07-23-2015, 05:53 PM)Aion Wrote:(07-23-2015, 05:50 PM)Lighthead Wrote:(07-23-2015, 05:39 PM)Aion Wrote: Funny how you can't commend your own practice without discrediting another in the process...
Well it's not like I'm getting paid to "commend" them. I'm just sharing what has worked for me. That other stuff is about selling you a membership (at times), and they only offer you a drip of the truth at a time. The truth is simple: meditate and meditate the right way. Unfortunately, meditating the right way is something that you discover as you meditate. If you told someone to get from A to B, would you tell them to go from A to 3 to 10 to 5 to B? Why not just go right to the point? I even find it ironic that those Western mystery traditions are, more and more, incorporating traditions from the East. Doesn't that tell you something in and of itself?
Okay, let me ask you, what is the point of ritual magick? Let me just start by telling you that I'd be surprised if you could answer that question with one word.
Communion.
I don't see any need to 'defend' the different traditions, I just find your opinion somewhat snide. That it doesn't work for you or that you don't see merit in it doesn't define it or determine whether it is effective for someone else. It is well and good to express what has worked or not worked for you, but the attitude you're giving seems to be more of superiority.
Communion was excellent as a one word answer.
@Lighthead From how I see it, ritual magick can be viewed as a shared meditation practice of which the goal could be seen as synergy.
As I'd be not good in explaining how and why, I'll just use quote Tanner from something he said in another thread :
Quote:The purpose of ritual is to configure mind, body and spirit in to a single intent. The reason that these rituals which have already been created are useful is that they are already 'ingrained' in the planetary mind and consciousness. When you do the LBRP properly it will be recognized by the consciousness of the Earth as the same configuration done by any other who has done the ritual properly. Thus, the intent is somewhat already more solid and focused in this ritual, so it is easier to use because it already offers a complete structure. I'm not saying it can't be tweaked slightly to be comfortable (for example my use of "within" for the six-ray star rather than "behind") but the idea is that you don't want to change the fundamental symbolic formula because then you change the configuration and the ritual is no longer the same intent.
You could create your own rituals if you preferred though as a mean of setting your intent and easily bringing it up, probably not as efficient but equally something.
RE: Occult, Qabalah, Golden Dawn disillusionment - Lighthead - 07-23-2015
(07-23-2015, 06:11 PM)Elros Tar-Minyatur Wrote:(07-23-2015, 05:53 PM)Aion Wrote:(07-23-2015, 05:50 PM)Lighthead Wrote:(07-23-2015, 05:39 PM)Aion Wrote: Funny how you can't commend your own practice without discrediting another in the process...
Well it's not like I'm getting paid to "commend" them. I'm just sharing what has worked for me. That other stuff is about selling you a membership (at times), and they only offer you a drip of the truth at a time. The truth is simple: meditate and meditate the right way. Unfortunately, meditating the right way is something that you discover as you meditate. If you told someone to get from A to B, would you tell them to go from A to 3 to 10 to 5 to B? Why not just go right to the point? I even find it ironic that those Western mystery traditions are, more and more, incorporating traditions from the East. Doesn't that tell you something in and of itself?
Okay, let me ask you, what is the point of ritual magick? Let me just start by telling you that I'd be surprised if you could answer that question with one word.
Communion.
I don't see any need to 'defend' the different traditions, I just find your opinion somewhat snide. That it doesn't work for you or that you don't see merit in it doesn't define it or determine whether it is effective for someone else. It is well and good to express what has worked or not worked for you, but the attitude you're giving seems to be more of superiority.
Communion was excellent as a one word answer.
@Lighthead From how I see it, ritual magick can be viewed as a shared meditation practice of which the goal could be seen as synergy.
As I'd be not good in explaining how and why, I'll just use quote Tanner from something he said in another thread :
Quote:The purpose of ritual is to configure mind, body and spirit in to a single intent. The reason that these rituals which have already been created are useful is that they are already 'ingrained' in the planetary mind and consciousness. When you do the LBRP properly it will be recognized by the consciousness of the Earth as the same configuration done by any other who has done the ritual properly. Thus, the intent is somewhat already more solid and focused in this ritual, so it is easier to use because it already offers a complete structure. I'm not saying it can't be tweaked slightly to be comfortable (for example my use of "within" for the six-ray star rather than "behind") but the idea is that you don't want to change the fundamental symbolic formula because then you change the configuration and the ritual is no longer the same intent.
You could create your own rituals if you preferred though as a mean of setting your intent and easily bringing it up, probably not as efficient but equally something.
Nah, I don't need rituals. I'm working on enlightenment.
RE: Occult, Qabalah, Golden Dawn disillusionment - Minyatur - 07-23-2015
(07-23-2015, 06:17 PM)Lighthead Wrote:(07-23-2015, 06:11 PM)Elros Tar-Minyatur Wrote:(07-23-2015, 05:53 PM)Aion Wrote:(07-23-2015, 05:50 PM)Lighthead Wrote:(07-23-2015, 05:39 PM)Aion Wrote: Funny how you can't commend your own practice without discrediting another in the process...
Well it's not like I'm getting paid to "commend" them. I'm just sharing what has worked for me. That other stuff is about selling you a membership (at times), and they only offer you a drip of the truth at a time. The truth is simple: meditate and meditate the right way. Unfortunately, meditating the right way is something that you discover as you meditate. If you told someone to get from A to B, would you tell them to go from A to 3 to 10 to 5 to B? Why not just go right to the point? I even find it ironic that those Western mystery traditions are, more and more, incorporating traditions from the East. Doesn't that tell you something in and of itself?
Okay, let me ask you, what is the point of ritual magick? Let me just start by telling you that I'd be surprised if you could answer that question with one word.
Communion.
I don't see any need to 'defend' the different traditions, I just find your opinion somewhat snide. That it doesn't work for you or that you don't see merit in it doesn't define it or determine whether it is effective for someone else. It is well and good to express what has worked or not worked for you, but the attitude you're giving seems to be more of superiority.
Communion was excellent as a one word answer.
@Lighthead From how I see it, ritual magick can be viewed as a shared meditation practice of which the goal could be seen as synergy.
As I'd be not good in explaining how and why, I'll just use quote Tanner from something he said in another thread :
Quote:The purpose of ritual is to configure mind, body and spirit in to a single intent. The reason that these rituals which have already been created are useful is that they are already 'ingrained' in the planetary mind and consciousness. When you do the LBRP properly it will be recognized by the consciousness of the Earth as the same configuration done by any other who has done the ritual properly. Thus, the intent is somewhat already more solid and focused in this ritual, so it is easier to use because it already offers a complete structure. I'm not saying it can't be tweaked slightly to be comfortable (for example my use of "within" for the six-ray star rather than "behind") but the idea is that you don't want to change the fundamental symbolic formula because then you change the configuration and the ritual is no longer the same intent.
You could create your own rituals if you preferred though as a mean of setting your intent and easily bringing it up, probably not as efficient but equally something.
Nah, I don't need rituals. I'm working on enlightenment.
They are tools one might or might not need or want to use. What tells you an enlightened person wouldn't see purpose in rituals?
RE: Occult, Qabalah, Golden Dawn disillusionment - Minyatur - 07-23-2015
(07-23-2015, 05:57 PM)outerheaven Wrote: Thanks for your perspective, Matt. I can relate: I feel the pull of any number of given topics but ultimately never truly go "all in" for various reasons. And so the search continues.
FYI, you have some rather large paragraphs in that OP. Personally, huge paragraphs are daunting to me and I'm less likely to actually read. I read it all, but I'm willing to bet more than a few people saw those big blocks of text and said "nah." If you care, you can greatly increase your readability if you separate your thoughts with timely paragraph breaks. If you don't care, ignore this.
I've been told this so many times.
RE: Occult, Qabalah, Golden Dawn disillusionment - Lighthead - 07-23-2015
(07-23-2015, 06:19 PM)Elros Tar-Minyatur Wrote:(07-23-2015, 06:17 PM)Lighthead Wrote:(07-23-2015, 06:11 PM)Elros Tar-Minyatur Wrote:(07-23-2015, 05:53 PM)Aion Wrote:(07-23-2015, 05:50 PM)Lighthead Wrote: Well it's not like I'm getting paid to "commend" them. I'm just sharing what has worked for me. That other stuff is about selling you a membership (at times), and they only offer you a drip of the truth at a time. The truth is simple: meditate and meditate the right way. Unfortunately, meditating the right way is something that you discover as you meditate. If you told someone to get from A to B, would you tell them to go from A to 3 to 10 to 5 to B? Why not just go right to the point? I even find it ironic that those Western mystery traditions are, more and more, incorporating traditions from the East. Doesn't that tell you something in and of itself?
Okay, let me ask you, what is the point of ritual magick? Let me just start by telling you that I'd be surprised if you could answer that question with one word.
Communion.
I don't see any need to 'defend' the different traditions, I just find your opinion somewhat snide. That it doesn't work for you or that you don't see merit in it doesn't define it or determine whether it is effective for someone else. It is well and good to express what has worked or not worked for you, but the attitude you're giving seems to be more of superiority.
Communion was excellent as a one word answer.
@Lighthead From how I see it, ritual magick can be viewed as a shared meditation practice of which the goal could be seen as synergy.
As I'd be not good in explaining how and why, I'll just use quote Tanner from something he said in another thread :
Quote:The purpose of ritual is to configure mind, body and spirit in to a single intent. The reason that these rituals which have already been created are useful is that they are already 'ingrained' in the planetary mind and consciousness. When you do the LBRP properly it will be recognized by the consciousness of the Earth as the same configuration done by any other who has done the ritual properly. Thus, the intent is somewhat already more solid and focused in this ritual, so it is easier to use because it already offers a complete structure. I'm not saying it can't be tweaked slightly to be comfortable (for example my use of "within" for the six-ray star rather than "behind") but the idea is that you don't want to change the fundamental symbolic formula because then you change the configuration and the ritual is no longer the same intent.
You could create your own rituals if you preferred though as a mean of setting your intent and easily bringing it up, probably not as efficient but equally something.
Nah, I don't need rituals. I'm working on enlightenment.
They are tools one might or might not need or want to use. What tells you an enlightened person wouldn't see purpose in rituals?
To me a ritual is like a snack whereas meditation is like dinner. It's just something to hold you over for the main meal, but it's not necessary in and of itself. For example, you perform a ritual to raise planetary consciousness and then what? Why not just encourage people to meditate so that they can actively have a hand in raising their own consciousness? To me, ritual just seems so unnecessary. It seems like something someone did before they found out about meditation.
I'd like to do more research into it, but my intuition tells me that meditation is far more superior. To me ritual seems more clumsy and "ornate," whereas meditation is more streamlined and simple. Even Zen aesthetics with their minimalism are more to the point. It doesn't beat around the bush. It is the bush.
RE: Occult, Qabalah, Golden Dawn disillusionment - Minyatur - 07-23-2015
(07-23-2015, 07:40 PM)Lighthead Wrote:(07-23-2015, 06:19 PM)Elros Tar-Minyatur Wrote:(07-23-2015, 06:17 PM)Lighthead Wrote: Nah, I don't need rituals. I'm working on enlightenment.
They are tools one might or might not need or want to use. What tells you an enlightened person wouldn't see purpose in rituals?
To me a ritual is like a snack whereas meditation is like dinner. It's just something to hold you over for the main meal, but it's not necessary in and of itself. For example, you perform a ritual to raise planetary consciousness and then what? Why not just encourage people to meditate so that they can actively have a hand in raising their own consciousness? To me, ritual just seems so unnecessary. It seems like something someone did before they found out about meditation.
I'd like to do more research into it, but my intuition tells me that meditation is far more superior. To me ritual seems more clumsy and "ornate," whereas meditation is more streamlined and simple. Even Zen aesthetics with their minimalism are more to the point. It doesn't beat around the bush. It is the bush.
I'm no expert in rituals myself because I do also have some retissance in using them, although I've been experimenting a little bit.
But since you do want to focus on connecting to the Creator, what about using a ritual to enhance your meditation. Perhaps making one of your own, simply to create a routine which you will link to a state of mind in order to access it more easily. As such you'd enter into transe before starting your meditation as a pre-meditation work.
I was thinking about doing this, just creating something of my own, with my own symbolism in it which will serve the purpose helping going into my desired state of mind through something I would feel I can relate to. I still do not exclude the idea of using known rituals though, just that they are not something I can channel myself into as of now.
RE: Occult, Qabalah, Golden Dawn disillusionment - Lighthead - 07-23-2015
(07-23-2015, 08:16 PM)Elros Tar-Minyatur Wrote:(07-23-2015, 07:40 PM)Lighthead Wrote:(07-23-2015, 06:19 PM)Elros Tar-Minyatur Wrote:(07-23-2015, 06:17 PM)Lighthead Wrote: Nah, I don't need rituals. I'm working on enlightenment.
They are tools one might or might not need or want to use. What tells you an enlightened person wouldn't see purpose in rituals?
To me a ritual is like a snack whereas meditation is like dinner. It's just something to hold you over for the main meal, but it's not necessary in and of itself. For example, you perform a ritual to raise planetary consciousness and then what? Why not just encourage people to meditate so that they can actively have a hand in raising their own consciousness? To me, ritual just seems so unnecessary. It seems like something someone did before they found out about meditation.
I'd like to do more research into it, but my intuition tells me that meditation is far more superior. To me ritual seems more clumsy and "ornate," whereas meditation is more streamlined and simple. Even Zen aesthetics with their minimalism are more to the point. It doesn't beat around the bush. It is the bush.
I'm no expert in rituals myself because I do also have some retissance in using them, although I've been experimenting a little bit.
But since you do want to focus on connecting to the Creator, what about using a ritual to enhance your meditation. Perhaps making one of your own, simply to create a routine which you will link to a state of mind in order to access it more easily. As such you'd enter into transe before starting your meditation as a pre-meditation work.
I was thinking about doing this, just creating something of my own, with my own symbolism in it which will serve the purpose helping going into my desired state of mind through something I would feel I can relate to. I still do not exclude the idea of using known rituals though, just that they are not something I can channel myself into as of now.
Well, to be very honest, I don't have a lot of privacy here in my house to really do any rituals like that. I live with my mom (and with my uncle who comes in from time to time) and it's not a very large house, so I wouldn't really be able to create a ritual space. I wish that Aion could suggest what somebody could do in my situation, but he completely shuts down the conversation by acting all abrasive like that. And, by the way, I'm not talking behind anybody's back. This is, obviously, out in the open for everyone to see.
So maybe since I don't have that sort of privacy, I've allowed a certain bias to build up against ritual that's out in the open like that (the ritual, that is). I used to have a book called Teutonic Magic by Kveldulf Gundarsson. I actually found it really fascinating. But, the same thing, since I didn't have any privacy back then either, I was very limited in the practical use of it. He (the author) also mentioned the idea that it would be ideal if you were Northern European to take part in those folkish traditions, but I've seen, in at least one instance, that that might be a misinterpretation of the ancient Teutonic religious texts (the Havamal, etc.). But that last part is a whole 'nother story.
Edit: And I'm a big believer in symbols. I wonder if the lessened accessibility of ritual is a hint as to something deeper. Maybe that's why it is theorized that the really powerful in today's society gravitate towards rituals and the like. Something to ponder over.
RE: Occult, Qabalah, Golden Dawn disillusionment - Minyatur - 07-23-2015
I do feel the same, but I plan to create something that would work just for me. Simple gestures to start, that I would associate with different intents that are important to me. This part also involves working with your intent and exploring it, forcing you to do so of some sort.
I do think it can be pretty much anything, something to take off stagnant and heavy energies was something I was thinking about By doing certain gestures in interacting with my energy field, gestures I'd find meaningful and that I'd feel work for me.
I also plan on doing something with just the elements, to start with exploring only these concepts more deeply while doing something practical. I'd want to feel myself incarnate each of them in my being.
And I'd end it with something that means for me that I am my magical personality.
Just something personal, that I'd feel right in using for myself, can be as discret as I want, no needs to make sounds or speak.
Anyway those are thoughts of mine about exploring something I have difficulty relating to.
RE: Occult, Qabalah, Golden Dawn disillusionment - Lighthead - 07-23-2015
(07-23-2015, 09:40 PM)Elros Tar-Minyatur Wrote: I do feel the same, but I plan to create something that would work just for me. Simple gestures to start, that I would associate with different intents that are important to me. This part also involves working with your intent and exploring it, forcing you to do so of some sort.
I do think it can be pretty much anything, something to take off stagnant and heavy energies was something I was thinking about By doing certain gestures in interacting with my energy field, gestures I'd find meaningful and that I'd feel work for me.
I also plan on doing something with just the elements, to start with exploring only these concepts more deeply while doing something practical. I'd want to feel myself incarnate each of them in my being.
And I'd end it with something that means for me that I am my magical personality.
Just something personal, that I'd feel right in using for myself, can be as discret as I want, no needs to make sounds or speak.
Anyway those are thoughts of mine about exploring something I have difficulty relating to.
Yeah, that could be cool. But I'm pretty sure that there are a lot of old-school people that would say that you have to go one step further and do like a traditional ritual to be effective at all.
I'd like to do research on magick, but a lot of the books that are around are long-winded and boring. That's sort of the issue I'm having with Buddhism. There's a lot of interesting material out there, but you have to dig for it because there's a lot of outdated, archaic material there. For example, I was trying to read the Shobogenzo (I got further when I read it before), and there's some stuff that the author writes about that sounds laughably old-fashioned. I wish I could remember what it was. But I'm sure everybody gets the point.
RE: Occult, Qabalah, Golden Dawn disillusionment - Minyatur - 07-23-2015
Well what I do talk about would be like chaos magick, that your beliefs/thoughts do shape reality.
It includes of your own creations or things made by others, the central core is faith in your belief system. You channel through thought forms.
So in term of rituals, it is either creating your own personalized tools or using already existing ones. (the latter could be seen as more effective but harder to gras in full spectrum)
I'll probably try mixing both in my experiments.
RE: Occult, Qabalah, Golden Dawn disillusionment - Lighthead - 07-23-2015
(07-23-2015, 10:55 PM)Elros Tar-Minyatur Wrote: Well what I do talk about would be like chaos magick, that your beliefs/thoughts do shape reality.
It includes of your own creations or things made by others, the central core is faith in your belief system. You channel through thought forms.
So in term of rituals, it is either creating your own personalized tools or using already existing ones. (the latter could be seen as more effective but harder to gras in full spectrum)
I'll probably try mixing both in my experiments.
I remember looking into chaos magick a while back in my seeking. But I think that there's this idea that just because there's nothing traditional or ceremonial about chaos magick, that you don't need to have the same amount of discipline as the former. You might even need more discipline since you're not dealing with formal methods.
RE: Occult, Qabalah, Golden Dawn disillusionment - Minyatur - 07-24-2015
(07-23-2015, 11:03 PM)Lighthead Wrote:(07-23-2015, 10:55 PM)Elros Tar-Minyatur Wrote: Well what I do talk about would be like chaos magick, that your beliefs/thoughts do shape reality.
It includes of your own creations or things made by others, the central core is faith in your belief system. You channel through thought forms.
So in term of rituals, it is either creating your own personalized tools or using already existing ones. (the latter could be seen as more effective but harder to gras in full spectrum)
I'll probably try mixing both in my experiments.
I remember looking into chaos magick a while back in my seeking. But I think that there's this idea that just because there's nothing traditional or ceremonial about chaos magick, that you don't need to have the same amount of discipline as the former. You might even need more discipline since you're not dealing with formal methods.
Well chaos magick could be viewed as integrating any forms of tradition or ceremonie if wished so.
RE: Occult, Qabalah, Golden Dawn disillusionment - Lighthead - 07-24-2015
(07-24-2015, 12:17 AM)Elros Tar-Minyatur Wrote:(07-23-2015, 11:03 PM)Lighthead Wrote:(07-23-2015, 10:55 PM)Elros Tar-Minyatur Wrote: Well what I do talk about would be like chaos magick, that your beliefs/thoughts do shape reality.
It includes of your own creations or things made by others, the central core is faith in your belief system. You channel through thought forms.
So in term of rituals, it is either creating your own personalized tools or using already existing ones. (the latter could be seen as more effective but harder to gras in full spectrum)
I'll probably try mixing both in my experiments.
I remember looking into chaos magick a while back in my seeking. But I think that there's this idea that just because there's nothing traditional or ceremonial about chaos magick, that you don't need to have the same amount of discipline as the former. You might even need more discipline since you're not dealing with formal methods.
Well chaos magick could be viewed as integrating any forms of tradition or ceremonie if wished so.
That's true. Mixing and matching to form your own experience of ritual.
RE: Occult, Qabalah, Golden Dawn disillusionment - Aion - 07-24-2015
(07-23-2015, 05:57 PM)Lighthead Wrote:(07-23-2015, 05:53 PM)Aion Wrote:(07-23-2015, 05:50 PM)Lighthead Wrote:(07-23-2015, 05:39 PM)Aion Wrote: Funny how you can't commend your own practice without discrediting another in the process...
Well it's not like I'm getting paid to "commend" them. I'm just sharing what has worked for me. That other stuff is about selling you a membership (at times), and they only offer you a drip of the truth at a time. The truth is simple: meditate and meditate the right way. Unfortunately, meditating the right way is something that you discover as you meditate. If you told someone to get from A to B, would you tell them to go from A to 3 to 10 to 5 to B? Why not just go right to the point? I even find it ironic that those Western mystery traditions are, more and more, incorporating traditions from the East. Doesn't that tell you something in and of itself?
Okay, let me ask you, what is the point of ritual magick? Let me just start by telling you that I'd be surprised if you could answer that question with one word.
Communion.
I don't see any need to 'defend' the different traditions, I just find your opinion somewhat snide. That it doesn't work for you or that you don't see merit in it doesn't define it or determine whether it is effective for someone else. It is well and good to express what has worked or not worked for you, but the attitude you're giving seems to be more of superiority.
That's such a vague sounding word. And you're the one insinuating that I'm trying to be superior. That wasn't my intention at all. It just seems that M1 is searching for something. I'm trying to offer assistance.
Any word can be vague depending on what you see in it. Communion is simply, it is the Creator experiencing the Creator. I understand trying to offer assistance, I just don't understand why, in finding ones own path, there is the need to refute or belittle other paths. It doesn't work for you, that is all good, but why indirectly call down the people who do get something from it by implying it is an inferior method? It just doesn't make sense to me.
Also...
Quote:I wish that Aion could suggest what somebody could do in my situation, but he completely shuts down the conversation by acting all abrasive like that.
I was pretty under the impression that you saw no value in rituals so I don't really think I'd have much to offer. It's clear that my own experiences and path has brought me to different realizations than you guys and that's all good, I don't see anything wrong with your guys' preference. I just don't get why the realization that a path is not for you has to come with calling the path down.
I'll be honest I generally don't end up sharing largely because my views are 'out there' and I don't think the way in which I understand these things would be useful to you.
However, you might find it interesting that I studied Buddhism before I ever studied ceremonial magic. Actually Buddhism has tons of ceremonial magic within it that most people probably don't recognize as such. For example sand mandalas are a great example of an Eastern ceremonial ritual. Buddhism is full of empowerment and initiation rituals done for transition from teacher to student.
RE: Occult, Qabalah, Golden Dawn disillusionment - Aion - 07-24-2015
I admit, in general I feel that while people find me perhaps interesting or curious, I don't feel there is much interest in my actual approach to things. I think that were I to share my actual views of reality you would likely view me as very archaic.
RE: Occult, Qabalah, Golden Dawn disillusionment - Aion - 07-24-2015
Also, I'd apologize for the abrasiveness except I only recently learned to accept it as part of my nature so I don't feel an apology would be sincere.
RE: Occult, Qabalah, Golden Dawn disillusionment - Lighthead - 07-24-2015
(07-24-2015, 01:56 AM)Aion Wrote: Any word can be vague depending on what you see in it. Communion is simply, it is the Creator experiencing the Creator. I understand trying to offer assistance, I just don't understand why, in finding ones own path, there is the need to refute or belittle other paths. It doesn't work for you, that is all good, but why indirectly call down the people who do get something from it by implying it is an inferior method? It just doesn't make sense to me.
Well, I'm going to be honest; maybe I don't find any value in it because I find it hard to practice it. Just the thought of it frustrates me because it doesn't seem like the kind of thing that can be done spontaneously the way meditation seems to be. I'm not saying that it can't be done spontaneously, I'm just saying that it seems like you have to put a lot more effort into it than with something like meditation. More effort into researching various methods and such.
(07-24-2015, 01:56 AM)Aion Wrote: However, you might find it interesting that I studied Buddhism before I ever studied ceremonial magic. Actually Buddhism has tons of ceremonial magic within it that most people probably don't recognize as such. For example sand mandalas are a great example of an Eastern ceremonial ritual.
I actually already knew that about Buddhism. But I'm not really interested in that aspect of it. I'm more interested in Buddhism from a philosophical perspective. I'm also interested in the parts of Buddhism that are simple and not elaborate. There are even "rituals" associated with Buddhism that have to do with meditation that I have absolutely no interest in. For example, I don't really understand the importance of the schools stressing the need to meditate near a statue of Buddha. It seems sort of besides the point. I don't know why, but I don't really see the point of any ritual. Not in Christianity, not really in anything. The only kind of ritual magic that is fascinating to me for some reason is ancient Teutonic magic. I'm fascinated by the runes, galdr magic, etcetera. Maybe because of that book that I used to have.