i think the plan made for the planet is flopping again

[lvxseeker]

Who is Yahweh, exactly? A social memory complex or something? "Good or bad"? I'm confused.

I tried to search for answers from LOO, but couldn't find any.

Yahweh, or more properly, Yod He shin Vav He, the triune entity is the Hebrew deity. YHVH is also known as the Tetragrammaton, or the four letter Hebrew word.

You slipped a shin in here by mistake.Yod He shin Vav He is the Hebrew name for Yeheshua, or Jesus. So Jesus is Yod He Vav He with shin (fire) added.

If you take the Hebrew letters, the tetragrammaton and stack them you get this image. The top letter is Yod, the middle is Vav, He is the two Pi appearing symbols. Basically you are using a mind and body designed by YHVH. Large portions of your DNA was co-authored by this entity.

Kewl I have never seen this before.

[zenmaster]

May I introduce the concept of 'preference' here along with 'judgment'.

Judgment, evaluation, choice, or preference, or however we try sugar coat these terms or make them more politically correct, is the only process here that serves to ultimately make us more and more consciously aware of the nature of the logos.

I agree wholeheartedly that discernment is needed to grow. Then there are different ways the discernment may be applied. Let me put it this way-

Preference = Discernment + Choice
Judgment = Preference + hate/anger/ other nagative emotions

I hope that clarifies my take.

I totally understand where you are coming from, but we are fortunate to have with us a 3rd-party, higher observer or 'witness' of our necessarily-polarized decision making. We can always decide, evaluate, choose, make judgments in an ad hoc manner, based on the information (such as experience, intuition) available to us in whatever circumstances.

Really, judgment is not preference + negative emotions - it's merely an opinion (or "the process of forming an opinion or evaluation by discerning and comparing") . What you're talking about with the negative emotion is identification-attachment by the ego where a projection did not fit. BTW, certain positive emotional responses can be just as distracting with regards to polarization, and therefore can also be considered 'negative'. This is due, for example, to inflation directing attention towards what one likes or hopes for at the expense of the a larger picture of 'love' and balance.

Failed projections result in an emotional response - typically anger that you mention - which in turn inevitably hide information (awareness, open-mindedness) necessary for further evaluation.

[Ankh]

Who is Yahweh, exactly? A social memory complex or something? "Good or bad"? I'm confused.

I tried to search for answers from LOO, but couldn't find any.

Ra does not say what YHVH is exactly, other than being a positively oriented entity/group of entities.

18.23 Questioner: Was Yahweh then of the Confederation?

Ra: I am Ra. Yahweh was of the Confederation but was mistaken in its attempts to aid.

24.3 /.../ RA:An entity of the Confederation, many, many thousands of your years in the past, the one you may call “Yahweh,” ...

So I am not really sure where information came from them being Guardians. They were entities of Confederation and might have been 6D entities to aid 3D, the part Ra is doing now.

[Protonexus]

Who is Yahweh, exactly? A social memory complex or something? "Good or bad"? I'm confused.

I tried to search for answers from LOO, but couldn't find any.

Ra does not say what YHVH is exactly, other than being a positively oriented entity/group of entities.

18.23 Questioner: Was Yahweh then of the Confederation?

Ra: I am Ra. Yahweh was of the Confederation but was mistaken in its attempts to aid.

24.3 /.../ RA:An entity of the Confederation, many, many thousands of your years in the past, the one you may call “Yahweh,” ...

So I am not really sure where information came from them being Guardians. They were entities of Confederation and might have been 6D entities to aid 3D, the part Ra is doing now.

The 7d statement is under the Opinion label, that doesn't necessarily make the guardians although I feel that YHVH is one of the council of Saturn due to their thorough interactions with the planets of this solar system.

Where are you finding the concept that YHVH is no longer active on Earth. Ra is not the sole Confederation entity here actively engaged in teach/learning the Law of One. Ra is bound to stay with Humanity until their distortion of the Law of One is cleared up/balanced, would not it then be similar with YHVH? YodHeVavHe grafted the 3d entities of Mars here, their is still responsibility for this service. YHVH started 75000 years ago to prepare the Human animal to become the Human Being, to be spiritually aware, do you think that this entity has abandoned this experiment? It seems quite clear that YHVH's perversions/distortions of the Law of One are not balanced.

All Confederation entities that have come here to teach/learn have invariably had their lessons distorted.

[Confused]

All Confederation entities that have come here to teach/learn have invariably had their lessons distorted.

That is a great observation.

I have always wondered as to how such pain could be allowed on this planet. I think the intelligences that shaped the potentials for the two polarities, under freewill, on this planet, did not appreciate the devious routes that the negative might take. I picked the idea from the following LOO exchange -

89.26 Questioner: All right; I’ll have to do that. Ra stated that a major breakthrough was made when proper emphasis was put on Arcanum Twenty-Two. This didn’t happen until Ra had completed third density. I assume from this that Ra, being polarized positively, probably had some of the same difficulty that occurred prior to the veil in that the negative polarity was not appreciated. That’s a guess. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. In one way it is precisely correct. Our harvest was overwhelmingly positive and our appreciation of those which were negative was relatively uninformed. However, we were intending to suggest that in the use of the system known to you as the tarot for advancing the spiritual evolution of the self a proper understanding, if we may use this misnomer, of Archetype Twenty-Two is greatly helpful in sharpening the basic view of the Significator of Mind, Body, and Spirit and, further, throws into starker relief the Transformation and Great Way of Mind, Body, and Spirit complexes.

Thus, as the experiment proceeded apace on this planet, the negative polarity was able to successfully subterfuge or co-opt interventions from positively motivated forces, such as that of the social-memory complex of Ra (in my opinion). But I can say one thing with certainty. If I graduate from this planet to fourth density positive, in the context of my current incarnation, I shall go forth as an entity that is relatively well-informed in terms of the negative. The pain, tears, and dense fears that has afflicted this earth for eons has taught me that. And of course, my current life has supplemented and sharpened those lessons extremely strongly, with me not just being an innocent angel, but acting as a perpetrator of negativity, especially on those weaker than me. The pain and tears that I have visited on my parents is testament to that in the court of higher conscience.

[Protonexus]

Entities harvested from this planetary experience will likely be more prepared to effectively balance negativity. Earth has become a training ground of sorts, as well as lesson for those social memory complex that developed naivete of harmony.

[RonAl]

Can it be that after such a long period of insane suffering that it can be so simple just to say this is too much? That we had to wait till the ascension of Gaia for the experiment to be over to put in the final report?

[Confused]

Not a dream of wealth. I have no wealth.

I am going to sound a trite cheesy and sentimental here. In response to the statement of yours that I have highlighted, I would like to say that you have the LOO, the greatest wisdom of the ages distilled in the love and the light of the ONE.

We have the most beautiful privilege of being able to read it daily. I give all thanks and praise to the ONE for that ability, for that opportunity and for that favor. Let us go forth and rejoice at least for that, in spite of all that may seem to be evil or unchangeable around us.

Let us connect into the network of the infinite intelligence, for it will know through us, and the forces of change will be set in motion. Let us believe. I give thanks to Ra as well, a sublime spiritual force of great vision and purity, which is attempting to aid us. Let us help those of Ra in helping us.

All praise, worship and thanks be unto the ONE.

[Monica]

Not a dream of wealth. I have no wealth.

I am going to sound a trite cheesy and sentimental here. In response to the statement of yours that I have highlighted, I would like to say that you have the LOO, the greatest wisdom of the ages distilled in the love and the light of the ONE.

I meant monetary wealth! I am very wealthy, otherwise! I agree with all you said.

[Confused]

I meant monetary wealth! I am very wealthy, otherwise! I agree with all you said.

Dear Monica, I sort of understood what you meant. I wrote attempting to express fraternal support in line with the sentiment like 'so what if we do not have much material wealth; we have true riches in the literature of LOO'.

That is why I warned it was going to be cheesy, for it is something that new zealots of a spiritual principle usually say

[yossarian]

I don't think we can blame the current social structure in the West.

The current social structure is legitimately thus:

1. People can elect their government.
2. People can choose what to do with their money. Don't like evil corporations? Don't support them.

Ownership may be orange ray but that doesn't make it wrong. Ownership ultimately means that people do have a level of control over their lives.

People are busy, yes, but not too busy. They have the opportunity to vote their conscience and to use their wallet for the service of others.

If you ask me, people ARE doing this. In droves.

All that is needed is for people to care and value their fellow human beings and wish for a brighter world. We don't need to have a billion people start meditating - I don't even think meditation is endemic to 3D reality.

People meditate on Earth because the veil is so thick they need to hack reality to get the peace and love and bliss they crave.

Overt spirituality is just not necessary for harvest. What is necessary is for people to choose to care. I think they do this. Not in a loud way. They aren't making an announcement or putting up a billboard. They're just deciding inside their own head that, you know what, instead of spending all my money on house renovations I'm going to send some to the africans. Or instead of spending all my energy at the office I'm going to sign up to be a Big Brother/Big Sister.

You can't measure these kinds of decisions by watching the news. The corporate drones organize themselves using money, but this doesn't mean they are acting in an STS fashion.

Stop looking at money as a selfish tool and rather look at is as an organizing tool and even an empowering tool. People really do have free choice about where to send their dollars. And I think more and more people, including 3D types, are choosing to send them to others because they value others. Not out of selfish intent but simply because they are waking up to the fact that they love each other and that helping others helps themselves. It's win-win.

Inevitably lots of people are not going to graduate - but that's how it should be. The densities aren't meant to have full harvests, it would be inefficient just like full employment is inefficient. I really think the dire predictions of a poor harvest are premature and misguided. There will be time to do a post-mortem, port-mortem.

[unity100]

I don't think we can blame the current social structure in the West.

The current social structure is legitimately thus:

1. People can elect their government.
2. People can choose what to do with their money. Don't like evil corporations? Don't support them.

'people' can elect their government, getting elected takes huge amounts of funds for election. in short, people can elect whichever rich enough guy has the funds, or supported by the rich.

people, on the other hand, have no choice of not supporting corporations. they are living in a corporate structure themselves.

even if you choose not to work for any corporation, or not to employ anyone in your small business, you will still be an underdog, a tribute payer to bigger corporations through all kinds of things - from infrastructure to power bill, to your materials, expenses anything.

you are told you are free. and indeed you are, in appearance, free to do anything.

but, EVERYthing is tied to ownership of money or funds. you can do only as much as you have it. the less you have, the less your options are.

even the possibility of having more of it, requires you to have enough of it to be able to even start. education or a new business, requires money. there are always success stories peddled, from riches to rags, however, you dont see such people anywhere in your own social circle. at most, someone knows someone who has a relative who got to some place from zero in short notice.

Ownership may be orange ray but that doesn't make it wrong. Ownership ultimately means that people do have a level of control over their lives.

ownership of anything, is an orange ray blockage. you identify an external person, entity, object, place, thought form as 'yours', identifying it as an extension of your self that is commandable by you, as if it was an addition of your bodily orange ray complex. its a demeaning, reduction of whatever you are 'owning'.

People are busy, yes, but not too busy. They have the opportunity to vote their conscience and to use their wallet for the service of others.

yes. vote for the other corporate supported candidate, or buy from the other corporation. it is a choice. if you forget that all megacorporations are tied to each other through networks of shareholdership, or even proxy corporations and holdings.

Overt spirituality is just not necessary for harvest. What is necessary is for people to choose to care. I think they do this. Not in a loud way. They aren't making an announcement or putting up a billboard. They're just deciding inside their own head that, you know what, instead of spending all my money on house renovations I'm going to send some to the africans. Or instead of spending all my energy at the office I'm going to sign up to be a Big Brother/Big Sister.

and the money you send to africans wont reach any africans, because it will be swallowed by warlords who are employed by diamond corporations which are using them to ensure that their exclusive status or monopolies do not jeopardized.

one of my acquaintances worked for u.n., trying to distribute food in africa. the food crates would come, and they would just sit on the food crates and wait for the warlords' (or dictators') men to come and collect them, to sell them in black market. they werent able to distribute a single food crate during the time she was volunteering in africa.

You can't measure these kinds of decisions by watching the news. The corporate drones organize themselves using money, but this doesn't mean they are acting in an STS fashion.

any hierarchical social structure that gives more control to those higher in the ranks, in service of themselves, is a sts structure.

................

actually it doesnt even require any kind of rationalization or justification - one just need to imagine the below :

any higher entity from a positive higher dimension, owning a 'corporation', and asking for profit for what service it provides.

jesus of nazareth having people work for him, and amassing the profit.

15 people owning the entire output of a group of 5,000 people.

I really think the dire predictions of a poor harvest are premature and misguided. There will be time to do a post-mortem, port-mortem.

'premature' ?

there have been only 150 harvests in second cycle.

in this cycle, things got even worse, because according to what Ra says, isolation is no longer possible. the 150 who were harvested in 2nd cycle, had the privilege of being able to live in isolated fashion.

anyway, i will just refer you to a thread in which we already have made these discussions extensively.

http://bring4th.org/forums/showthread.php?tid=1662

[yossarian]

'people' can elect their government, getting elected takes huge amounts of funds for election. in short, people can elect whichever rich enough guy has the funds, or supported by the rich.

This is due to the nature of the public though. There is nothing stopping people from electing Ron Paul. Society chooses to only consider candidates who are supported by the party system.

Also this is an America-centric perspective. Small parties in Canada have been created and within 1 election cycle are significantly effecting the debate.

people, on the other hand, have no choice of not supporting corporations. they are living in a corporate structure themselves.

What's wrong with a corporation? It's just a method of organizing a bunch of people together to do something. Why is this collective ownership model evil? Why can't a corporation be used to do good things if the shareholders choose for it to do so?

Many corporations now put clauses in their charters about profit not being the sole motive.

even if you choose not to work for any corporation, or not to employ anyone in your small business, you will still be an underdog, a tribute payer to bigger corporations through all kinds of things - from infrastructure to power bill, to your materials, expenses anything.

This has nothing to do with corporations but rather the current distribution of resources. Some people have been given ownership of massive natural resources like oil which is a bit ridiculous but the public could change this in a day if they chose to, using their elected government.

but, EVERYthing is tied to ownership of money or funds. you can do only as much as you have it. the less you have, the less your options are.

Even in a free-energy world we would still need money. Money is just an exchange medium. If there is free energy then the limiting resource will be human intelligence. You'll still need to get your hair cut and you'll want to make sure the person who cuts your hair is able to get what he wants (maybe he wants to take a vacation to Mars) and in order for him to get that he needs someone to pilot the spaceship, etc.

Money is an organizer. The current money system is a bit broken because private interests are issuing the money but the public enacted that through elected officials (President Wilson in the case of USA) and could take it away.

ownership of anything, is an orange ray blockage. you identify an external person, entity, object, place, thought form as 'yours', identifying it as an extension of your self that is commandable by you, as if it was an addition of your bodily orange ray complex. its a demeaning, reduction of whatever you are 'owning'.

There is a feeling of ownership and then there is the organizing principle of ownership. It's society agreeing that certain people are in charge of certain resources because if everyone was in charge of every resource it could be chaos. If I build some space vehicle in my space garage in 4D, are people just going to come into my house and take it because there is no ownership? That would be ridiculous. I could relinquish my feeling of owning the vehicle and rather feel that the Infinite Create owns the vehicle but this doesn't mean there would be no property rights. Property rights don't have to be a blockage.

yes. vote for the other corporate supported candidate, or buy from the other corporation. it is a choice. if you forget that all megacorporations are tied to each other through networks of shareholdership, or even proxy corporations and holdings.

A corporation is just a collection of people exerting their will. A megacorporation is just more people. I don't see why this is inherently bad. Are you arguing for communism? Communism fails not because of human nature but because it's impossible to organize a system like that.

and the money you send to africans wont reach any africans, because it will be swallowed by warlords who are employed by diamond corporations which are using them to ensure that their exclusive status or monopolies do not jeopardized.

This is an oversimplification. There are some charities that are able to help. There is always something you can do for others using your money. Sure, some ways are better than other ways. But you're missing the point.

any hierarchical social structure that gives more control to those higher in the ranks, in service of themselves, is a sts structure.

What if the CEO is using the corporation to serve others? He's not forcing anyone to join his company. There is a hierarchy to organize the work - divided responsibility. But the entire hierarchy can still be devoted to serving others. Most corporations now put service to the community as a very high priority and they emphasize the concept of win-win where both parties in every deal they make will feel happy with the exchange and both parties will win from it.

any higher entity from a positive higher dimension, owning a 'corporation', and asking for profit for what service it provides.

I have no trouble imagining this. Those higher entities need to eat too don't they? I believe in charity work but not all work should be charity work. In the higher dimensions there may be no money but there will be an equivalent construct used to organize social groups - I think it's actually spiritual energy itself.

jesus of nazareth having people work for him, and amassing the profit.

Some people hoard profit on Earth out of a pathological desire to hoard. But most don't. Even most CEOs don't actually hoard - they reinvest their money or they spend it - circulating it back to other people.

It's impossible to imagine Jesus owning a corporation because that wasn't his thing. Just because Jesus didn't do it though doesn't make it evil. Jesus didn't do a lot of things - he didn't have sex, he didn't ride a horse, he didn't play the banjo. That doesn't make these things evil.

15 people owning the entire output of a group of 5,000 people.

You're describing slavery - a former economic system. Not the current economic system. That's an over simplification of the economy.

First of all, those 5000 people voluntarily entered into a relationship with the 15. Those 5000 people got something out of it - they got paid, they enjoyed their work, and they got to do a service for others in the form of their labour. Most of the output actually went to the people who utilized the stuff they made. So if the employee is making tacos, the output actually goes to the customer, not the 15 major shareholders.

Secondly, most corporations are owned by millions of people.

Those 15 do not own "all" the output of 5000. That's just not true in any sense. That would be slavery.

'premature' ?

there have been only 150 harvests in second cycle.

in this cycle, things got even worse, because according to what Ra says, isolation is no longer possible. the 150 who were harvested in 2nd cycle, had the privilege of being able to live in isolated fashion.

And now we have a zillion wanderers who are increasing the harvest. I think the wanderer effect is working.

[unity100]

This is due to the nature of the public though. There is nothing stopping people from electing Ron Paul. Society chooses to only consider candidates who are supported by the party system.

is it ?

you cant elect anyone you dont know about. there is a ron paul, yes. but who is he ? what is he saying ? is the mom in idaho able to get that information ?

there is a treaty called acta, which has been internationally negotiated since 3-4 years. it changes a lot of things legally, makes a lot of things criminal offenses, like recording your daughter singing a copyrighted song at her birthday.

however, americans are totally unaware of this, even as of this date.

why do you think that is ?

Also this is an America-centric perspective. Small parties in Canada have been created and within 1 election cycle are significantly effecting the debate.

coincidentally, and in conjunction, the number of people who are aware about acta worldiwde, even though that, if ratified, it will affect everyone outside russia and china , are not even a tiny percentage.

the reason is, because they are also kept in the dark, by the channels which hold information dispersion in our societies.

they are controlled by partners of the corporations that hold the interest in america to keep public from that information. in most cases, they are directly subsidiaries.

so, answer to my rhetorical question in the previous quote is simple - it is because they are intentionally kept in the dark.

What's wrong with a corporation? It's just a method of organizing a bunch of people together to do something. Why is this collective ownership model evil? Why can't a corporation be used to do good things if the shareholders choose for it to do so?

because that we have discussed such things in extreme detail, i have given a link to the earlier thread. however still i will drop a short reply here, out of courtesy :

everything is a method of organizing more than 1 entities in our existence. the very existence we are dwelling in since infinite octaves, if you had read Ra material's parts about 'first thing in creation' and on, is a discovery of such infinite number of finites.

what makes everything different is how finites are organized. this is no different in the case of finites we know as 3d entities, or, in the case of our planet in general majority definition, humans. (3d entities do not have to be all human).

it doesnt matter how you organize it - if, a method of organizing gives the control and OWNership of the products of whatever is being done, to a few that are strategically and organizationally placed higher than others, it becomes a negative construct.

basically, if you make 10,000 people work for 3000 people, and those 10,000 do not get equal share of their fruits of labor, it means others are reaping the fruits of that labor. it constitutes an energy flow, spiritually and conceptually, from the other entities to the minority entities.

not to mention that, it is undemocratic - you can employ 1 million people worldwide, yet, none of them may have a say in how the resources and output is used, but, a few people who are posing as majority shareholders.

as for 'Why can't a corporation be used to do good things if the shareholders choose for it to do so?', this is a question with a more fundamental concept, it relates to energy models, actually even basic constructs of mind, and too long to discuss here - however, we have discussed them in length in the thread i linked.

This has nothing to do with corporations but rather the current distribution of resources. Some people have been given ownership of massive natural resources like oil which is a bit ridiculous but the public could change this in a day if they chose to, using their elected government.

are you thinking that resources other than oil are not in the hands of minority ?

entire mainstream news distribution in united states is owned by 4 major corporations. if you go town to press, it becomes similar. if you go down to backbone providers, it even may go down to 3. if you go to cleaning products, you come up with a similar number again, if you are not fooled by the brands but can read and track the small logos that appear at the bottom of the back labels.

it doesnt matter whether 1 person control some resource or product, or, 50,000 people worldwide control it through a huge network of partnerships, interests and ownerships. minority still controls it.

Even in a free-energy world we would still need money. Money is just an exchange medium. If there is free energy then the limiting resource will be human intelligence. You'll still need to get your hair cut and you'll want to make sure the person who cuts your hair is able to get what he wants (maybe he wants to take a vacation to Mars) and in order for him to get that he needs someone to pilot the spaceship, etc.

before there was money, people were still getting what they wanted. after this density ends, there will not be money, and people will still get what they want.

There is a feeling of ownership and then there is the organizing principle of ownership. It's society agreeing that certain people are in charge of certain resources because if everyone was in charge of every resource it could be chaos.

and why would that be ? was there chaos in lemuria ? was there chaos among the 150 entities who got harvested positively in the 2nd cycle ? (the ONLY entities who got harvested from this planet until end of 3rd cycle, by the way)

A corporation is just a collection of people exerting their will. A megacorporation is just more people. I don't see why this is inherently bad.

aside from earlier comments, please refer to the thread i linked.

Are you arguing for communism? Communism fails not because of human nature but because it's impossible to organize a system like that.

and because it fails, 4d positive sources/societies that are being channeled through countless channels since the last 50 years, have corporations, ownership, and profit ? they have money ?

This is an oversimplification. There are some charities that are able to help. There is always something you can do for others using your money. Sure, some ways are better than other ways. But you're missing the point.

if we look at what Ra says about negative polarized planets, they also require some amount of free will in order to be able to polarize negatively. even negative polarization requires some of it.

but, it is not enough, for positive polarization.

What if the CEO is using the corporation to serve others?

please refer to the thread i linked about the basic concept behind this argument.

He's not forcing anyone to join his company. There is a hierarchy to organize the work - divided responsibility.

people were rather free to move about in medieval england too, so, if you didnt like a particular lord, you could move, if you had the means.

however, any place you went, had another lord. so, you would just be changing lords.

same goes for 'forcing'. yes, noone is forcing you to join a company. but, you will have to join a company to work, or, work for someone else, or, be a tribute payer to someone else.

Most corporations now put service to the community as a very high priority and they emphasize the concept of win-win where both parties in every deal they make will feel happy with the exchange and both parties will win from it.

your 'most' corporations definition is an overstatement and oversimplification. where are those corporations ? general motors ? bp ? walmart ? nike ? at&t ?

I have no trouble imagining this. Those higher entities need to eat too don't they? I believe in charity work but not all work should be charity work. In the higher dimensions there may be no money but there will be an equivalent construct used to organize social groups - I think it's actually spiritual energy itself.

organization does not require ownership. even bees, as 2d entities have organization, but, they dont have any concept of ownership. its communal.

there is no relevance in between organization concept, and ownership. organization is a mental concept which is used not only for social concepts in this system of illusions in our existence, but EVERYthing, ranging from how a stone is constructed, to the complex system we know as body. it is an immensely complex construct, yet, no element of it owns any other element or part of it.

Some people hoard profit on Earth out of a pathological desire to hoard. But most don't. Even most CEOs don't actually hoard - they reinvest their money or they spend it - circulating it back to other people.

wow. please refer and read the thread i linked.

You're describing slavery - a former economic system. Not the current economic system. That's an over simplification of the economy.

First of all, those 5000 people voluntarily entered into a relationship with the 15. Those 5000 people got something out of it - they got paid, they enjoyed their work, and they got to do a service for others in the form of their labour. Most of the output actually went to the people who utilized the stuff they made. So if the employee is making tacos, the output actually goes to the customer, not the 15 major shareholders.

slavery as an institution was a moral contract in which entities could enter voluntarily, from prehistoric times until medieval england, too. you could be in debt, unable to sustain yourself, and you could apply for slavery to a master, in return for feeding you. you should not get hung up on the african slave trade and american experience with slavery. even during african slave trade, there were indentured servitude concept. white men slaving away for others, despite it being forbidden by christian churches.

the point here is, something being voluntary, does not change the nature of it. if you make 10,000 people voluntarily work for 10 people, it still is a negative construct, a negative energy flow, even if all volunteers to it.

Secondly, most corporations are owned by millions of people.

that is a naive and uninformed view of the current system. millions of tiny shares distributed to millions of people ,do not change the fact that there are always major controlling shares which belong to holdings or individuals, and which decide what happens with the resources and output.

Those 15 do not own "all" the output of 5000. That's just not true in any sense. That would be slavery.

it is slavery. just like in roman times, the workers are given as minimum as possible according to their function (teacher slaves were fed and kept much better than those work the fields in rome) according to the standards of the day. all corporations try to minimize their unqualified wages down to minimum wage, gradually keeping them high for more qualified functions. the output of the work is, just like in roman times, phenomenal compared to what is being given to those who work.

nothing changed - tho sorry, one thing has changed - it is now much more possible to choose the master. HOWEVER, the 'industry standard practice' concept eradicates that choice too.

And now we have a zillion wanderers who are increasing the harvest. I think the wanderer effect is working.

please refer to the linked thread. this was discussed there in length.

[kycahi]

Unity, you are not living up to your name. Are you saying that all those corporations are not part of the One, or you aren't? Are you saying that they are all STS? I agree that many of them are influenced by STS attitudes, but I don't think they are recruiting for the STS cause. If so, they are bungling it badly.

Heck, many or most of the employees of a big company feel that they are part of a good enterprise, and enjoy helping it meets its goals. Gives them a model for becoming STO at some point.

[unity100]

Unity, you are not living up to your name. Are you saying that all those corporations are not part of the One, or you aren't? Are you saying that they are all STS? I agree that many of them are influenced by STS attitudes, but I don't think they are recruiting for the STS cause. If so, they are bungling it badly.

a negative construct, is a negative construct, and it will act negatively. even participants of its intentions are positive, the mechanism will work negatively and eventually wear down and transform the society through generations.

............

at this point, i will refer you and yossarian to the thread in which we have discussed all of these points, and much more before.

http://bring4th.org/forums/showthread.php?tid=1662

since we have discussed in great detail and at length in that thread, i dont have any intention of repeating the same things with rephrased words here. the posts there are constructed much more in detail and well referenced.

[yossarian]

A construct cannot be negative or positive. Only people can be.

I read that thread and I agree with your opponent. If freedom is STS then send me to Orion hell.

Having sovereignty over the fruits of my own labour is natural law and I won't abandon that for anything. It's not attachment - it's an unwillingness to be a slave.

Communism is slavery. Corporations in the West do not have slaves. There is a form of mental enslavement in some cases - mind control - but aside from this these corporations are engaging with people on a voluntary basis.

Do you consider self-employment to be choosing your master? It's not. And neither is choosing to work for a company that does good in the world and is aligned with your values. A great example is Whole Foods. They don't have slaves. They have equal partners who contract with them voluntarily on a win-win basis.

[Monica]

Can it be that after such a long period of insane suffering that it can be so simple just to say this is too much? That we had to wait till the ascension of Gaia for the experiment to be over to put in the final report?

What a novel idea!

---

This is due to the nature of the public though. There is nothing stopping people from electing Ron Paul. Society chooses to only consider candidates who are supported by the party system.

That's a great example. I campaigned intensely for Ron Paul, and witnessed him getting censored from the media. They actually edited the news reports, leaving him out, even though he won in the early primaries. I saw the original AP reports and the edited reports in the mass media. He was also censored from some of the debates, actually not invited even though he had a right to be there. And the debates he did participate in, he was ridiculed by the commentators and all the other candidates treated him with scorn and condescension.

The media commentators basically dictated to the American people what to think, and the people ate it up. The commentators said he had no chance at winning, even though he was winning all the straw polls.

It was a total farce.

So, ideally, yes, if enough people rose up and supported some independent candidate, it could be done. But the closest we've seen to that happening was the Ron Paul Revolution, and it failed miserably, due to the blindness of the masses and their being subject to the manipulation of the mass media.

[yossarian]

That's a great example. I campaigned intensely for Ron Paul, and witnessed him getting censored from the media. They actually edited the news reports, leaving him out, even though he won in the early primaries. I saw the original AP reports and the edited reports in the mass media. He was also censored from some of the debates, actually not invited even though he had a right to be there. And the debates he did participate in, he was ridiculed by the commentators and all the other candidates treated him with scorn and condescension.

The media commentators basically dictated to the American people what to think, and the people ate it up. The commentators said he had no chance at winning, even though he was winning all the straw polls.

It was a total farce.

So, ideally, yes, if enough people rose up and supported some independent candidate, it could be done. But the closest we've seen to that happening was the Ron Paul Revolution, and it failed miserably, due to the blindness of the masses and their being subject to the manipulation of the mass media.

You're expecting way too much. The Ron Paul Revolution was a massive success. It was a baby step towards future victories by independents. It forced mainstream candidates to shift towards his policies, and millions of people learned about free market principles and discovered that the mainstream media has biases.

The Ron Paul Revolution woke up thousands if not millions of people. This is a success!

Yes, the media is controlled, because the public allows it to be. The media conglomerates are private companies that would die tomorrow if everyone stopped watching. If the public wants the truth it has to demand the truth.

You give the "masses" way too little credit for their own predicament. They have the true power and many people are beginning to recognize media bias - more people than ever before. The traditional TV networks are losing viewership in droves to independent internet news sources precisely because people are waking up to the fact that they have an agenda.

It boggles my mind how you're able to take a massive success like Ron Paul's candidacy and see it as a failure. He did things that have never been done before! He exposed an entire generation of people to ideals that various mind controllers had presumed dead. And he demonstrated the power of the internet.

Change doesn't happen overnight. It happens one small victory at a time. Ron Paul was one victory. Obama was another victory. Just this month in Canada public outcry started and spread online was able to defeat internet curmudgeons - it's called the UBB scandal.

The mainstream Canadian media was loathe to give any attention to the movement which picked up all its momentum online. But over 1% of Canada's population made their voices heard by writing to our elected officials and the government stepped in directly because they knew if they didn't they would lose the next election. It's that simple. Canada has a democracy just like the USA and if the public makes their voice heard their will will be done.

All the power rests with the public. If they choose to allow their media sources to be biased, then so be it. That is the choice they are making and they will suffer the consequences. But if they insist that their media sources be unbiased and fair then those media sources will have absolutely no choice in the matter and will either change or die.

Mind control is real but no mind control is all powerful. I think the lesson being taught to a great many people on this 3D plane is to start exercising their power and stop giving it away to authorities who don't have their best intentions in mind. Whether the lesson is necessary or not, I don't know. But that's the situation and I am full of optimism. Compared to 1970 our media is so much more free and open and honest. That's progress.

As long as we're moving in the right direction I say that is cause for celebration. Ron Paul was a huge move in the right direction.

[Crimson]

A construct cannot be negative or positive. Only people can be.

Sure they can...what is your definition/s of "constructs"..Let's see there are thought forms, ideas, astral planes, time/space vs space/time, words, emotions, even first density can acquire 3d concioussness if they have been invested enough, symbols, planets, densities...philosophies...Logos construction of "constructs"...

...If freedom is STS then send me to Orion hell.

Your choice, but I'm feeling will most probably be a repeat of 3 density patterns at this point due to you probably won't have enough polarization..but who knows.

Having sovereignty over the fruits of my own labour is natural law and I won't abandon that for anything. It's not attachment - it's an unwillingness to be a slave.

You are a slave and you don't even know it...just because you live in a "first world country" --by definition elitist, does not mean you are free. Some contemplation on the history of imperialism, colonialism is due here. You think you live "well" because you have a job, live in a "free" country, "vote", etc...The fact is that your country is rich most probably because of the oppression of the other ones ("second" and "third" worlds...raping raw materials and keeping their inhabitants very quiet benefiting YOU from the fruits of THEIR labor.

Communism is slavery. Corporations in the West do not have slaves. There is a form of mental enslavement in some cases - mind control - but aside from this these corporations are engaging with people on a voluntary basis.

In the present no country/social complex in 3d here on Earth has reached anything close to communism..maybe Ra in Venus...Any attempt destroyed...China just becoming a mostly state CAPITALISM.

Part of the problem is that they created the new structure with the same rewards (money) than the old system not by creating a "new man/woman". Same with the old USSR.

You are a slave man...you are probably a paycheck away from becoming homeless, your children not having any future, no moral rewards, just money...without any type of consideration in developing a philosophy of morals...nope..save your ass first...That is purest orange blocking man...congratulations...you are a slave and you don't have the faintest idea. Probably soon going to red too...

Do you consider self-employment to be choosing your master? It's not. And neither is choosing to work for a company that does good in the world and is aligned with your values. A great example is Whole Foods. They don't have slaves. They have equal partners who contract with them voluntarily on a win-win basis.

haha I hope you continue to have enough money to keep buying at "Whole Foods"...(the fruits fruit of the labor of some other poor workers sweating the whole thing just for you ---That is REAL work I'd say!) Some people cannot afford Whole Foods you know...You are just a slave to that paycheck to continue to survive.

Sad sight when you see people buying food at the dollar store..especially the elderly because little can they afford.

Since socialism was never an option really due to the most bestial attacks to prevent any seeds of it by the elite...what we are talking about here is a "socialism to come"..."equality to come" "social memory complex to come"...

Capitalism in this earth is 3d. Not even, elite is trying to make this a 2d work..

There is no other way around, socialism is the philosophical theoretical background that allows a possibility for a social memory complex...Obviously a socialism not based on money (maybe at the beginning as part of a transition) but a societal structure..complex lets say based on the new man/woman...for 4d+...

The opposite would be "Orion Hell"

[yossarian]

Do you even hear yourself?

If I ever start judging people's polarities, accuse them of hosts of blockages, and tell them they aren't going to graduate, please slap me. Hard.

Perhaps the nature of reality in 4D is different. I don't know. But on this earth the bottom line is that the defining characteristic of communism is the use of force by one group of people to seize the fruits of labour of another group of people so they can redistribute them.

Man is born into this Earth with requirements to survive. Humans are born into this world experiencing hunger, and in order to eat someone has to work. I didn't make it this way - Logos did. All I ask is that no one use force to make me work for their benefit. In exchange I will provide the same courtesy to them.

Service to others means caring about other people and acting for their benefit. Personally, I care a great deal about other people, and pretty much all of my effort and my life's work goes toward helping other-selves in ways they desire to be helped in. I value the lives of others and I value their happiness. I can say with a straight face that many of my decisions are calculated specifically to render the greatest benefit to others - especially the least fortunate. I'm not great at this or anything, I mean I'm still learning how to really be effective at this, but my intentions are pretty clear.

If some communist redistribution bureaucrat could demonstrate to me that he has a system that will apportion goods for the benefit of many people I just might voluntarily give him the fruits of my labour. But if he tries to forcibly take those fruits under threat of jail time I'm going to resist out of principle.

No corporation ever pointed a gun at me. But the communist ethos is all about throwing people in jail if you don't submit to the whims of the party bosses. That is the STS evil. Freedom is the natural state of earth. No one invented the free market - it existed ready made as soon as people decided to stop killing each other and negotiate peacefully.

The fact that loads of people with resources choose to hoard them rather than share them is regrettable. But I don't see how pointing a gun at those people and telling them to do what I or some bureaucrat says is helping the situation.

The food I buy comes from farmers who love their work and that's important to me. I'm paying them the price they ask and I'm happy to pay it. It's a win-win situation. There is no coercion, there is no force. We engage in a happy relationship on a voluntary basis. There is little government involvement and the corporations that are involved are run ethically and transparently - or at least a serious attempt is made in that direction. No one is perfect.

I don't see the evil.

I think it is terrible that so many people go without basic resources and that's why I work to help them, both energetically and materially. I do it because I value those people.

Anyway thanks for the service, Crimson. You're giving me a good lesson in self-confidence. I've decided that, when looking for advice on my spiritual progress, I'm going to listen to friends, family, colleagues, and my inner guidance in meditation rather than people on the internet who don't know me at all.

[Crimson]

yossarian, I apologize if I have hurt any feelings...I am sure you are doing the best you can.
I really hope the best for you. Be well.

[yossarian]

I'm not sure if I should interpret that as you being condescending again or you actually being apologetic.

Anyway, I considered your criticisms of my character and polarity... and they don't fit.

I wasn't born greedy or selfish and never have been. I have no worries about my survival whatsoever, which characterizes red blockage. I have little desire to possess others or be possessed by them, which characterizes orange blockage. My sense of individuality is strong and I know my personal boundaries with respect to society, to me that is crystallized yellow ray. I feel compassion and love, I am a good communicator, and I see the inner light in meditation. Green, light blue and indigo. The inner light feels like joy. I was told by a well respected Reiki practitioner last month that my chakras are open and balanced. I feel healthy and vibrant and enjoy my life. I feel the presence of the infinite. I'm slow to anger and quick to laugh. This is me doing a self-checkup and feeling some gratitude for the things that I like about my life and myself. I would say nice things about you too, but, being honest, I don't know you at all. Maybe you're right about me, maybe you have deep psychic insight into my issues, but if you're right I don't see it and I have to go with what resonates.

Freedom to me is an important principle and it's not just for my benefit but for everyone. Wanting freedom is not STS to me and never has been. To me respecting freedom is one of the most important STO principles, both protecting my own freedom, respecting the freedom of others, and protecting the freedom of others.

I can't imagine a heaven where you are forced to work against your will like in a communist country, and have all your production seized by bureaucrats with no say in how it is utilized. I don't see how that would be wise, efficient, desirable, or enjoyable. I want to live in a world where people are guided by inspiration not by central planners. I want there to be voluntary membership organizations, like a corporation, where if you believe in their values and the work they are doing you voluntarily join up. A corporation should be people with shared values co-operating in service to the creator and creation. I strongly believe that more and more corporations are enacting positive values, this is based on my close observation of them. I try hard not to empower corporations which demonstrate values that I disagree with. This means I pay higher prices for internet and food to avoid empowering monopolists.

I don't feel like a slave and even if you put me in chains I would refuse to feel like a slave. How can someone who feels the presence of the Infinite be a slave? I came to this Earth voluntarily and I remain here for a purpose. That's what my intuition tells me - that's what my inner guidance tells me.

Action on earth is restricted by the conflicting wills of other-selves as well as by the laws of nature. Restricted action is not the same as slavery.

[Crimson]

I'm not sure if I should interpret that as you being condescending again or you actually being apologetic.

I was very sincere.

What I think has happened it that the elite has been extremely successful in distorting ideas/ideals.

Experiments in socialism were not allowed ---even to the point of blowing up the planet with nuclear weapons. Even more recently, Yugoslavia (just because it was becoming independent, but successfully independent of the FMI --and Russian influence), was mercilessly destroyed. Do you realize this? The capacity for caring for other human beings and the planet in general was not allowed to exist...

The socialism I am talking about was never allowed to exist...You cannot say anything against it because it does not exist...yet. And the reason it is called socialism is because historically it was what opposed capitalism as a way for humans to live, to relate to each other and really for lack of any other name, because we can learn from the many years of philosophical foundations which are based on Earth's recent history.

It is nonetheless an open experiment to be developed by all of us. We have a base...a foundation...an experiment to begin which is nothing else that to become a social memory complex...

Getting tired now...see you tomorrow.

[Monica]

You're expecting way too much.

Maybe so. I naively believed we could actually pull it off - get him elected. And he'd end the wars.

In that respect, it was a failure.

The Ron Paul Revolution was a massive success. It was a baby step towards future victories by independents.

In that respect, yes it was a success. I'm not sure I'd call it a massive success. It seems to me that progress is moving at a snail's pace, when it comes to politics. Look at how close our country came to electing a cartoon character for VP!

You give the "masses" way too little credit for their own predicament. They have the true power and many people are beginning to recognize media bias - more people than ever before. The traditional TV networks are losing viewership in droves to independent internet news sources precisely because people are waking up to the fact that they have an agenda.

I hope you're right! I do see that happening too, but I guess I had hoped for more, and faster.

It boggles my mind how you're able to take a massive success like Ron Paul's candidacy and see it as a failure. He did things that have never been done before! He exposed an entire generation of people to ideals that various mind controllers had presumed dead. And he demonstrated the power of the internet.

OK. I don't disagree with that.

Change doesn't happen overnight. It happens one small victory at a time. Ron Paul was one victory. Obama was another victory.

Agreed. Obama is a very volatile subject - it amazes me how some people think he's a savior while others think he's anti-Christ - but regardless, it was a victory in many ways, and represents great strides towards reducing bigotry. I felt that a lot of healing occurred in the African-American community, when he got elected. Although, it also stirred up a lot of hatred and bigotry.

over 1% of Canada's population made their voices heard by writing to our elected officials and the government stepped in directly because they knew if they didn't they would lose the next election. It's that simple. Canada has a democracy just like the USA and if the public makes their voice heard their will will be done.

I love your optimism! Here in the US it's easy to fall prey to cynicism, after the corruption of the last 2 elections, not to mention 911.

All the power rests with the public. If they choose to allow their media sources to be biased, then so be it. That is the choice they are making and they will suffer the consequences. But if they insist that their media sources be unbiased and fair then those media sources will have absolutely no choice in the matter and will either change or die.

Ultimately, we all contribute to the creation of consensual reality, so yes, that is true.

Mind control is real but no mind control is all powerful.

Well said!

I think the lesson being taught to a great many people on this 3D plane is to start exercising their power and stop giving it away to authorities who don't have their best intentions in mind. Whether the lesson is necessary or not, I don't know. But that's the situation and I am full of optimism. Compared to 1970 our media is so much more free and open and honest. That's progress.

Agreed!

As long as we're moving in the right direction I say that is cause for celebration. Ron Paul was a huge move in the right direction.

Thanks for the pep talk!

---

What I think has happened it that the elite has been extremely successful in distorting ideas/ideals.

Exactly!

Both capitalism and socialism have good points that together form a balance - the freedom of capitalism and the concern for the common good of socialism.

But both have been corrupted by the STS elite.

The socialism I am talking about was never allowed to exist...You cannot say anything against it because it does not exist...yet.

Very true. The socialism as described by unity100 isn't the same as what has been demonstrated here in 3D. The tendency of STS entities to gain control of the masses and force them into compliance, isn't socialism. That is a corruption of the ideal.

Likewise for the fascism currently corrupting the principles of free enterprise.

Both systems have fallen prey to corruption by those seeking to control.

As an ideal, the concept of a capitalist corporation isn't so different from that of a socialist system. In practice, they aren't so different either.

[unity100]

...........

it seems you havent read the thread i linked. why ?

Anyway thanks for the service, Crimson. You're giving me a good lesson in self-confidence. I've decided that, when looking for advice on my spiritual progress, I'm going to listen to friends, family, colleagues, and my inner guidance in meditation rather than people on the internet who don't know me at all.

before doing that, first ponder what does polarity mean, what does service to OTHERS means, and what does service to SELF means. you are even missing the basic meanings of these concepts, then going on to justify the condition you are living in, and various orange ray manifestations, as 'freedom', while making grandoise claims regarding orion, freedom, self, others.

again, you havent read the thread i linked. why is that ?

---

Likewise for the fascism currently corrupting the principles of free enterprise.

there is no principle to a 'free enterprise' other than the furthering of the profits of the selves that have joined that enterprise and holding rights on it, by taking more than they give to others. else, it becomes a nonprofit organization.

As an ideal, the concept of a capitalist corporation isn't so different from that of a socialist system. In practice, they aren't so different either.

in a socialist system, everyone has equal rights to the fruits of everything that is produced, and equal control on them. its democracy not only in governance, but ownership.

in a capitalist corporation, a person can have more rights than others, and take more from the fruits of labor than others. moreover, the rights holders take everything, while giving the workers with no rights token amounts.

there are no parallels in between them.

[yossarian]

The socialism I am talking about was never allowed to exist...You cannot say anything against it because it does not exist...yet.

I could say something about it if you would describe it.

Why would you expect anyone to support your idea if you can't explain it? I've heard communist rhetoric before and I've seen the destruction it has caused. Every single time communist radicals influence policy it creates more suffering. Social safety nets have been proven to work but this is wholly different from socialism as Marx meant it, or communism as it was implemented.

My country calls itself a social democracy. We take care of the poor. We take care of the sick. At least, we try to, and we have encoded those ideals in our Charter. Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

There have always been radicals that believe everything is evil and want to smash the status quo. It is my firm belief that this radicalism is itself a great evil, perhaps the greatest. What is needed are slow, successive, gradual, intelligent changes -- not revolutions.

The current formula is very good. It can be improved, but not by revolution.

Money itself is one of the greatest inventions of mankind. Money itself has no value. The value is that it's a means of exchange that allows people to trade in mutually beneficial ways. The beauty of money is that it is not wealth. People who hoard money literally deny nothing to others, because their money must be stored somewhere, and where it is stored it will be recirculated. Hoarding actual wealth does deny others, but few do this to an extent that causes great harm. Most of the harm in the world is done through negligence, ill will, or desire to dominate. Not because of money.

Money is the root of all civilization. Money respects free will and fair exchange.

The nature of a corporation is a reflection of the nature of the shareholders. If the shareholders are STS, the corporation will be STS. If the shareholders are STO, the corporation will be STO.

The corporation itself is the most effective way for a group of inspired people to achieve something. There are corporations where service to humanity is placed as a higher goal than profit. They really exist. Usually they are small, but there are some big ones too.

"So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another – their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun."

[unity100]

............

again, i see that you havent checked and read the thread i referred you to. why is that ?

crimson, and i, are not explaining the SAME things over and over in detail, because these were discussed at great length in that thread.

noone has an obligation to repeat and explain everything when someone new into discussion comes and asks again.

im wondering, why havent you read that thread ?

[yossarian]

............

again, i see that you havent checked and read the thread i referred you to. why is that ?

crimson, and i, are not explaining the SAME things over and over in detail, because these were discussed at great length in that thread.

noone has an obligation to repeat and explain everything when someone new into discussion comes and asks again.

im wondering, why havent you read that thread ?

I did read the thread, not the entire thing because it's massive. But my general impression is that you guys are communists who believe wealth should be redistributed at the barrel of a gun.

I guess I'll go seek out the specific part where you describe your ideal social structure. I believe we can share thoughts without losing individual freedom. Your conception of 4D as a place where individuality is unimportant seems intuitively wrong to me. My conception of 4D involves great beauty flowing from the unique souls of every person, and each person expressing their spiritual beauty in unique ways, some doing it by clothing, some by food, some by song or visual art, some through love, some through sacrifice, and so on. I believe that a life itself is a work of art whose beauty flows from the inspiration and unique soul signature of every entity, acting unfettered in free collaboration with others and great individuality melded into a harmony.

The critical harmonizing feature of 4th density is the desire to serve and love. Aside from this harmonizing feature I believe people will have more individuality and variation, not less. And the capacity of enjoyment will increase as well.

Since I returned to these forums in the past few weeks I see tremendous levels of cynicism and pessimism and I'm inspired to counteract it.

[unity100]

I did read the thread, not the entire thing because it's massive. But my general impression is that you guys are communists who believe wealth should be redistributed at the barrel of a gun.

if you dont read some discussion in which every kind of possible argument was made, then you come out reiterating the same arguments to those people, who then, in turn, politely opt out of discussing with you like crimson did.

i was going to do the same, but i didnt, out of empathy. however i wont reiterate arguments again here.

please refer to that thread. the very fact that you talk about 'barrels of guns' and 'you guys are communists !!' etc, tells that you are quite biased in this subject. which is not a logical and wise state to be in.

I guess I'll go seek out the specific part where you describe your ideal social structure. I believe we can share thoughts without losing individual freedom. Your conception of 4D as a place where individuality is unimportant seems intuitively wrong to me.

and this is why you should not read any 'specific part', but all the thread. you are talking about individualism, in a path that seeks out to let go of EVERYthing, leave aside an idea of the self, and give out everything to others. it seems you are conceptualizing this spiritual path of positivity just being something that is only inside, feelings, emotions and so on.

there are quite important discussions regarding the basics of these concepts in that thread. and actually, this is why i asked you to read that thread. the understanding of basic concepts and clearing of misconceptions is much more important to spiritual advancement than anything else.