to kill or not to kill? that is the question.

[Marc]

The issue for me is: are we killing out of necessity or preference. Accepting death is different actively creating it. To use Jesus' words: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

[Diana]

it's impossible not to exist in harmony, from my point of view.

I understand the above statement, but I'm not of that awareness. It's fine for those who can just "be" in peace and acceptance with all. I feel driven to evolve myself and actively participate in the visualization and creation of a better world. That is not to say that I do so by changing others. I do so by changing myself and focusing on the vision. I also keep myself "in the now" by communing with nature; and I have worked for myself most of my adult life alone, which is also a form of "in the now" meditation.

I often think of those who are so advanced they can be here and see everything--suffering and destruction--with equanimity. It's not that I blame ignorant humans (although I had to work very hard on that, and still do when I am not centered). It's that I am a creative being (artist, illustrator, writer) and it seems to be my nature to visualize, and visualizing a world I would resonate with is a better occupation for me than feeling deep sadness or anger at the way things currently are.

I have not advanced to the point where I can always be in the accepting now. Even driving to the store I go by properties where the horses are fenced into a dirt area with no shade (it can get over 120° here in the summer). They will sometimes be straining over the fencing to try and reach a branch of a tree on the other side with leaves. That is just one thing of so many that stab my heart. I can send these horses love all I want, and it does not build a shade cover over them. :-/

[Monica]

Supposedly Jesus killed a fig tree. There is no way to be alive on this earth without killing something else. It's purpose, intention, ideal that make the difference. Are you striving to become more aware of the connection between yourself and all things? Or do you have some other intention?

We can't help killing microbes, each time we take a breath. (Although, are they really dying? I don't think so.)

You say intention is important, and I agree with the gist of that, although I'd say that both intention and action are important. Intention drives action, and unintentional action is understandable and forgivable, but intention without action when we could have taken action, is irresponsible.

The real question, I think, has to do with killing unnecessarily, ie. when we could have consciously avoided said killing...which brings us back full circle.

I don't think we are necessarily called to martyrdom. Ra mentioned that some do have a strong "distortion toward martyrdom," I seem to recall.

Can you explain how martyrdom enters into this? Or maybe I missed something...? What does martyrdom have to do with avoiding killing?

---

The issue for me is: are we killing out of necessity or preference. Accepting death is different actively creating it. To use Jesus' words: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

Exactly. The problem is that many people, even 'spiritually oriented' people, don't consider animals to be 'others.'

[isis]

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[transiten]

i don't like that line from jesus bc how can one really kno how something wants to be treated? there are ppl that want to die so i'm guessing there are also animals that want to die. if u should find urself killing something, like a mosquito, then it's probably just bc it was the mosquito's time to go.

So you seriously mean that it.s Ok that pple are killed in a terrorist attack or by a drone f.i. because "it's their time to go" It might even be some of them who are depressed or very ill so they wanted to die anyway...

This way of reasoning upsets my guts....

[isis]

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[Marc]

2D beings don't program their lives yet. It's only until midway through 3D. Violence is permissible, of course, but is it beneficial?!

[Parsons]

There is killing going on all around us, every day. We are in the density of Choice. It is our task to choose. That choice carries a lot more weight than knowingly participating in an act that isn't in alignment with our highest ideals. I do see the logic behind your idea, and I understand that you are suggesting extending love and compassion to the victim, but that can be done without actually participating in the killing.

To participate in an act that isn't in alignment with our highest ideals, because we think it is inevitable, may even have the effect of hardening one's heart to the very thing they formerly found repulsive. Kill an animal day after day and after awhile it gets easier and easier.

But that's just it, I don't distinguish that much between consuming the 'animal' level of 2D life. I just do so at a reduced rate and I thank the one infinite creator for sustaining my vehicle. I feel the same about consuming 2D 'plant' matter, however. So there is nothing going on 'out of alignment with my highest ideal'. I would like to completely forgo eating 2D matter whatsoever, but that currently isn't (reliably) possible.

[transiten]

i don't like that line from jesus bc how can one really kno how something wants to be treated? there are ppl that want to die so i'm guessing there are also animals that want to die. if u should find urself killing something, like a mosquito, then it's probably just bc it was the mosquito's time to go.

So you seriously mean that it.s Ok that pple are killed in a terrorist attack or by a drone f.i. because "it's their time to go" It might even be some of them who are depressed or very ill so they wanted to die anyway...

This way of reasoning upsets my guts....

u presently don't kno what's like to be the one *infinite* creator; it likely gets boring.

it's comforting to think all beings have the free will to will every single thing that happens to them.

some1 that got killed in a terrorist attack could've arranged such a death bc they killed ppl in a terrorist attack in a previous life; there's no way u can kno exactly what god's deal is & it's been said he/she/it works in mysterious ways.

"There are no mistakes. Be at rest, my friend. Each of you is most conscientious. All is well."

Since English is not my first language i'm not sure if i understand the nuances here. Anyway i suppose you are not on the level of "the one infinite creator" either. Synchronicity happens to me all the time and after reading your post i read one on Avalon saying that "boredom" is the biggest killer of all.

"Arranging" your own death "karma" doesn't take away the moral intention of the killer. You seem to mix things up.

[BrownEye]

u presently don't kno what's like to be the one *infinite* creator; it likely gets boring.

(creator grabs up all his toys and plays "army")

[Marc]

But that's just it, I don't distinguish that much between consuming the 'animal' level of 2D life. I just do so at a reduced rate and I thank the one infinite creator for sustaining my vehicle. I feel the same about consuming 2D 'plant' matter, however. So there is nothing going on 'out of alignment with my highest ideal'. I would like to completely forgo eating 2D matter whatsoever, but that currently isn't (reliably) possible.

If you truly wish to 'reduce your rate' of 2D life consumption, eating a vegan diet is the way to go (or better yet high fruit raw vegan diet). It takes a lot more plants to feed animals that feed then you then if you just ate plants first. You save about 10x's the plant life by going vegan, than by eating an omnivore diet. If you truly wish to not consume 2D life, than consider this option.

(And the next step is to eat the 80/10/10 diet, which is mostly fruits. Fruits do not harm the tree you take them from and you do the tree a service of carrying its seed elsewhere and hopefully planting it.)

You speak of not consuming 2D beings, and there is a way towards that. The choice is yours to make.

---

I'm vegan to save plant life as well as animal life.

---

...And the ecological results of an omnivore are ridiculous... Which is harming all life on the planet.

[Diana]

If you truly wish to 'reduce your rate' of 2D life consumption, eating a vegan diet is the way to go (or better yet high fruit raw vegan diet). It takes a lot more plants to feed animals that feed then you then if you just ate plants first. You save about 10x's the plant life by going vegan, than by eating an omnivore diet. If you truly wish to not consume 2D life, than consider this option.

(And the next step is to eat the 80/10/10 diet, which is mostly fruits. Fruits do not harm the tree you take them from and you do the tree a service of carrying its seed elsewhere and hopefully planting it.)

You speak of not consuming 2D beings, and there is a way towards that. The choice is yours to make.

---

I'm vegan to save plant life as well as animal life.

---

...And the ecological results of an omnivore are ridiculous... Which is harming all life on the planet.

The above is one of the posts I would love to "like" more than once.

I know it is difficult for many to shift diet from eating animals, let alone become vegan. But it is, in my opinion, a natural progression toward "doing less harm." There are reams on this subject, from both sides, in the in regards to eating meat thread. And quick references to particular issues around the subject in archived answers to the philosophy of eating meat; scroll down in Monica's post to access the archive.

[isis]

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[transiten]

Respectfully I don't know what we're talking about here, killing bugs or killing pple? Anyway, i never enjoyed killing flies or spiders when i was little, i even tried to save the rats from the cats.

Also i get more synchronicities than anyone i've ever met, confirmed at Avalon in the "Village-thread", but i didn't know there was a competition going on here.... Getting synchronicities is not a guarantee you're on the right path, one can just as well be on the road to hell - and i'm talking from personal experience.

I'm thankful my gutfeelings are guiding me; the one infinite creator cannot be labelled as "it" and cannot serve as a rolemodel here in 3D.

This is my final word on this

[Diana]

most of the children i've observed have always been quick to kill bugs & seemed to very much enjoy it.

This is not true for the children I know. Wanting to kill insects and spiders derives mostly from the fear injected from the parents.

i get more synchronicity than any1 i've ever encountered plus things rarely upset my guts, like they do yours, so i'm inclined to think my line of thinking is correct. i haven't gotten a cold or flu or strep throat or anything like this in about 3yrs...& i get to recall my dreams every morning...so this forces me to believe i must be doing something rite.

I have to agree with Transiten here, that synchronicities in life don't justify actions. And if killing doesn't "upset your guts," I would suggest doing some heart-opening exercises. There is a good yoga pose called "camel" that works to open the heart. I mean no offense here; it's just that killing anything, whether it be people, animals, plants, the planet, other's dreams, free will of others, hope, and so on seems contrary to the very nature of "love" and the Law of One.

If you haven't gotten sick in so long, and recall your dreams, you are doing something right. But it doesn't mean you can't evolve further.

[isis]

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[Marc]

TS,

So there's no need for compassion?

[transiten]

Turned on the computor: Time was 22.22

Well it's fairly difficult to know someones heart only from reading some posts. Would have been interesting to meet pple from all these forums IRL.

I'm off to the eastcoast tomorrow

Fare thee well

[isis]

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[AnthroHeart]

I killed some mice that had invaded my home before. I sometimes regret the manner in which I killed them. It wasn't pleasant. We've had 3 that get into a space and die there where they're hard to get at, and it smells up the home. That's what I'm worried about the hummingbird that flew in a few days ago, and I left the door open for one night, but not sure if it flew out. It may still be stuck in my home. Hope it doesn't stink if it dies. A grasshopper also came into the house, and I tried capturing it, but it just bounced around where I couldn't get it. I was going to take it outside.

[Marc]

@TS

I understand and I've been following your posts. I didn't mean it in a antagonistic way (which gets lost in translation via only written word). When I was new to LOO I saw everything as perfect and then it caused me to not care about anything and to not feel responsible for any actions because, "it was destined to happen and no free-will in actuality was infringed upon." I used this thinking to harden myself (and still do at times) to a point where I don't have compassion, or rather, don't feel compelled to help hurting entities.

But then there is the question: what is compassion? Is it helping other at the expense our own composure? Is it watching from afar seeing the big picture and merely understanding others' suffering without offering help?

[AnthroHeart]

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/history/guanyin.htm

It is said the the personification of perfect Compassion, Avalokiteshvara (Guanyin) Bodhisattva (a great being who aspires to help all sentient beings be free of suffering before entering the bliss of Buddhahood), in the beginning of His/Her Bodhisattva career of helping sentient beings, vowed that "Should He ever become disheartened in saving sentient beings, may His body shatter into a thousand pieces." This might seem extreme, but it was symbolic of His overwhelming great Compassion and determination.

[Bring4th_Austin]

But then there is the question: what is compassion? Is it helping other at the expense our own composure? Is it watching from afar seeing the big picture and merely understanding others' suffering without offering help?

I think that this is probably the question that we are in third density to explore. Ra said "it will take many, many essays into compassion before true universal love" is realized. And it's certainly not an easy thing to ponder in the context of "helping another at our own expense" and "watching for afar seeing the big picture." Both of those things, I think, could be a product of the path towards compassion.

There is the ever-present acceptance of the Creator for every situation. This awareness rests inside of us somewhere, forgotten and hidden by the veil. Love can be found in any moment no matter the amount of perceived suffering. A truly balanced entity (which I don't think truly exists in 3rd density) "sees all things as love," and to it "no situation would be emotionally charged," including one of observing death by the hands of another.

To do more than observe, to go out of your way to help another, I think would be the expression of this awareness, of the Creator, the ever-present accepting observer through an energy center. Each manifestation of expression might be linked to a reaching for the Creator. Manifesting compassion by going out of your way to help is possibly a green ray manifestation, and could simply be the tone of ones unique balance in the moment based upon past experience and progress in polarization.

[isis]

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[Marc]

TS, I'm totally with you. And as Ra said, "there is no right or wrong for all things will be reconciled at some point in time/space." I don't think killing is right or wrong. We each make our own decisions and experiance the experiences that we wish to. There is no judgement against that. But what I desire to see is people examining themselves and being honest with themselves about the reasons they act the way they do. As Ra memtions in his discussion on the effects of the pyramid on the initiate, most people have a hard time confronting themselves. My call to mankind (and myself) is: KNOW THYSELF. My reasoning for being an omnivore previously didn't hold up to honest discussion within myself and thus, in knowing myself truly, I dispelled an unconsannant distortion of my being and embraced a larger scope of compassion.

When I see a gazelle torn open by a lion, I have no pity for the gazelle. It's just an energy exchange from one species to another. In nature nothing is wasted. In a sense I turn off my empathy for a gazelle and in turn empathize with a larger picture. In interactions of a 2D nature I feel no need to interfere or get emotionally involved.

But when it comes go an interaction of 3D to 2D I do feel a responsibility to be involved and create a more harmonious (of course the definition of harmonious is created by my own perception) interaction with 2D other/selves. Violence is a part of 2D nature, but in 3D we have the ability to have compassion. Darwin wrote another book about how he believes it is our compassion that made/defines us higher in our evolution from animals and not our violence.

I know vegans who would take their compassion to an unreasonable place of saving a gazelle from a lion because they hate violence, but that is not a moral imperative to interfere with 2D energy exchanges. I agree with you we must be able to accept death, but as the serenity prayer puts it:

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

---

And in regards to putting and animal out of its misery goes, it all depends on circumstances, IMO. I've put a pet goat of mine out of its misery. (And afterwards found the simple cure online for its agonizing condition) I felt I did what I needed to do at that time and don't hold any guilt about it now, but moving forward I would make sure I exhausted more resources to save it (within reason) before I put it out of its misery.

[caycegal]

Can you explain how martyrdom enters into this? Or maybe I missed something...? What does martyrdom have to do with avoiding killing?

Monica, as well as I can remember when I wrote this, I was thinking that it would be martyrdom to die oneself so that one could avoid killing any other being, since that is the way our world is set up.

[transiten]

I'm soon taking the train to the Eastcost where we rescued the Sparrow Hawk. Some days prior to that i passed a small bird on the road wich was injured. I had some minutes of pain and compassion for the suffering bird. I found a big stone and held it high above my head and smashed it down. I felt an immense relief afterwords.

A wildlife caretaker told me later that birds don't feel physical pain like we do...is that really true?

[Diana]

I'm soon taking the train to the Eastcost where we rescued the Sparrow Hawk. Some days prior to that i passed a small bird on the road wich was injured. I had some minutes of pain and compassion for the suffering bird. I found a big stone and held it high above my head and smashed it down. I felt an immense relief afterwords.

A wildlife caretaker told me later that birds don't feel physical pain like we do...is that really true?

I can tell you this. I have always had an affinity with animals. And at times I can empathize, or meld with them in some way. (I am not a "new-ager" and have no idea why I am like this.) One particular instance addresses your question:

We found a lone baby bird (not brand new, but fully feathered) in the backyard not moving around. It looked stunned or as if it needed help. So we put it in a box and tried to feed it. It wouldn't eat, and I was worried about it. So that night I took it out of the box and laid down with it over my heart area (it just seemed like a good place to put it, and it hunkered down there and stayed). After about 45 minutes, my left shoulder developed a pain and it started to radiate down my arm. I thought it was because of the way my body was positioned, but I did not want to disturb the bird so I continued to lay there in spite of the pain. I finally put the little bird back in its box for the night.

The next morning it was dead. My partner told me it had a broken left wing (he didn't know about the pain in my left arm). When he told me that, I "knew" that the pain I felt was connected to the bird's broken wing. I hoped that I had actually taken some of its pain away and processed it myself. I don't really know. Perhaps it was just empathy.

So, I can't say for sure if birds feel pain the way we do. But certainly they feel pain.

I don't mean to make you feel badly about what you did. Just addressing the question. I never trust cavalier statements such as: Fish have no nervous system so they don't feel any pain. I feel they are justifications for taking life when it's not needed to do so.

[isis]

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[Diana]

i'm so curious to kno what comes after death that i wouldn't mind it too much if something smashed me flat rite now. should i still do unto others as i would have them do unto me?

This is theory only. If something smashed you dead right now, you may mind it very much. You may not. It seems to me this statement not only makes assumptions, but also doesn't take responsibility. (Not to mention a lack of respect for life other than your own.)

If you were taking responsibility, you would either commit to being here and bear it because you have agreed to it, or end your own life yourself without someone else having to do it for you.

Would you apply the above idea to humans, or just insects? What about a pet? What about every life-form's right to live, their own way? Just because you may desire to end your life, how in the world could this justify killing another?

There is a great Woody Allen movie, Hannah and Her Sisters, where an artist, after flipping through TV channels says, "If Jesus were to come back and see what people are doing in his name, he would never stop throwing up."