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+--- Thread: to kill or not to kill? that is the question. (/showthread.php?tid=7661)
to kill or not to kill? that is the question. - isis - 07-23-2013
[deleted]
RE: to kill or not to kill? that is the question. - AnthroHeart - 07-23-2013
My friend's friend got a staph infection from a spider bite possibly, which turned into mrsa. So better to kill the spiders than to get bit. They had to cut his hole arm to remove the infection.
RE: to kill or not to kill? that is the question. - Plenum - 07-23-2013
killing seems to be related to scale.
for eg, most of us would feel 'bad' about killing a large sized creature. for eg a dog or a cat. Or let's magnify it and say a whale or a planet even (Maldek or Mars anyone? planet killer!)
and def, on a similiar scale to us, a fellow human is considered a bad thing to kill (it is murder in most countries, and the death penalty is outlawed in many countries, so even the state doesn't have the right to kill its own citizens).
but when you drop the scale, say, down to insect level or ants, the ethical concerns drop too. And let's zoom down even more, and most of us use antibacterial soaps and cleaning agents to kills germs in the kitchen and the bathroom. Hey, that's 2d life as well, although not as 'sophisticated' as 'larger scale' entities.
so yeah, maybe there's a recognition at the larger scale of life, there is a greater 'individuation' and 'uniqueness' ... and the act of killing would remove a portion of uniqueness of the creator (incarnate experience that is).
and at the lower scale, there is less individuation of consciousness (say a bee hive or ant hive), and there is a 'group mind' which quite readily survives the death of one unit of insect, and so, what is actually lost by the cessation of the physical shell? their numbers are legion and endlessly prolific, esp when you get down to say a bacterial or viral level.
Quote:20.3 The animal which is exposed to the individualizing influences of the bond between animal and third-density entity, this individuation causes a sharp rise in the potential of the second-density entity so that upon the cessation of physical complex the mind/body complex does not return unto the undifferentiated consciousness of that species, if you will.
so yeah, there's another way of re-perspectivizing the issue.
RE: to kill or not to kill? that is the question. - Karl - 07-23-2013
They'll just reincarnate. Kill whatever you feel like.
RE: to kill or not to kill? that is the question. - Jade - 07-23-2013
I prefer not to kill anything, even bugs. I'll admit I don't think too much about microbes, but I can't see, smell, hear, taste, or feel them, so I presume they're not supposed to be within my conscious thought most of the time. Has anyone ever tried to communicate with microbes, I wonder? Anyway. I try to be patient with most bugs, even the bigger ones (spiders, wasps) are beneficial as they eat nuisance species, especially in my garden. Then the birds come to eat the spiders. I refuse to kill something just because it's icky or the thought of being bitten scares me. Where I live, there is very little that is poisonous. Not to mention, if you are conscious every moment you shouldn't unwittingly provoke a creature into hostility, anyway. Most things aren't going to take on a human unless they have to.
I prefer to (try to) live in trust, anyway - if I am supposed to die or be seriously injured at the bite of a bug, well, then that's something I've obviously prearranged.
This is my own personal belief. I believe Q'uo said that we are definitely entitled to our own personal space with bugs, using ants at a picnic as an analogy. I would think that it is the same with microbes - we are allowed to remove them from our area/body at will. When it comes to ingesting things that could damage one's system, I think a different protocol is allowed. With beings that are multi-cellular I try to err on the side of patience and caution.
I am going to try to send more gratitude to all the microbes that exist within my body. I read just a few days ago that there are 10x as many single-celled organisms on/in the human body than actual human cells. Incredible!
RE: to kill or not to kill? that is the question. - vervex - 07-23-2013
(07-23-2013, 11:56 AM)Guenivere Wrote: I prefer not to kill anything, even bugs. I'll admit I don't think too much about microbes, but I can't see, smell, hear, taste, or feel them, so I presume they're not supposed to be within my conscious thought most of the time. Has anyone ever tried to communicate with microbes, I wonder? Anyway. I try to be patient with most bugs, even the bigger ones (spiders, wasps) are beneficial as they eat nuisance species, especially in my garden. Then the birds come to eat the spiders. I refuse to kill something just because it's icky or the thought of being bitten scares me. Where I live, there is very little that is poisonous. Not to mention, if you are conscious every moment you shouldn't unwittingly provoke a creature into hostility, anyway. Most things aren't going to take on a human unless they have to.
I prefer to (try to) live in trust, anyway - if I am supposed to die or be seriously injured at the bite of a bug, well, then that's something I've obviously prearranged.
This is my own personal belief. I believe Q'uo said that we are definitely entitled to our own personal space with bugs, using ants at a picnic as an analogy. I would think that it is the same with microbes - we are allowed to remove them from our area/body at will. When it comes to ingesting things that could damage one's system, I think a different protocol is allowed. With beings that are multi-cellular I try to err on the side of patience and caution.
I am going to try to send more gratitude to all the microbes that exist within my body. I read just a few days ago that there are 10x as many single-celled organisms on/in the human body than actual human cells. Incredible!
Your position is very similar to mine. Personally, if I can deal with an insect without killing them, then I will do what's in my power to keep them alive. I do my best to recognize the divinity in each living creature.
In regards to insect in food or being a danger to us, I understand that sometimes, killing them might be the only option. I believe one must simply use their judgement. Can you deal with the animal without killing it? If so, I believe this would be the best course of action, the compassionate choice/action. If you cannot, then so be it. I personally will apologize if I kill an insect. It costs me nothing to do it and for me that's a way or acknowledging them.
In the end, the choice is always ours to make.
I choose compassion, as much as possible
RE: to kill or not to kill? that is the question. - Karl - 07-23-2013
I think ultimately, like everything, it's how we choose to perceive the situation that matters.
RE: to kill or not to kill? that is the question. - Unbound - 07-23-2013
I work in a restaurant where they serve crab and they keep live crabs in a trap for that reason. I have made it clear that I am willing to do any dirty work around the place, but I refuse to kill the crabs. This is not because I am scared or incapable, but because I have the choice of whether or not I am going to walk the talk of my higher awareness and in this situation it is my prerogative to make that choice and I have decided that although I will not kill the crabs, I do retrieve them from the traps and each time I bless them and thank them and offer a gateway for their spirit to evolve. For myself I don't have any belief I am sending them "somewhere better" but rather that by adding my consciousness to theirs they will be able to move on in their evolution more quickly.
I have been doing the practice when I eat meat to connect with the spirit of the animal and help to transmute it and carry it along the path of light, and then only very recently I discovered that is a Tibetan Buddhist practice. I am almost positive I was a Tibetan buddhist at one point aha
(07-23-2013, 02:43 PM)Karl Wrote: I think ultimately, like everything, it's how we choose to perceive the situation that matters.
I am curious, what part matters, the choosing or the perception? What is the "mattering" in this case? Personal comfort and desire?
RE: to kill or not to kill? that is the question. - Jeremy - 07-23-2013
(07-23-2013, 10:27 AM)Gemini Wolf Wrote: My friend's friend got a staph infection from a spider bite possibly, which turned into mrsa. So better to kill the spiders than to get bit. They had to cut his hole arm to remove the infection.
Actually you can't get MRSA from a spider bite and actually what most people think is a spider bite is actually MRSA or some other infection like cellulitis.
http://news.yahoo.com/surprising-cause-most-spider-bites-163944651.html
RE: to kill or not to kill? that is the question. - Karl - 07-24-2013
(07-23-2013, 04:18 PM)Tanner Wrote:(07-23-2013, 02:43 PM)Karl Wrote: I think ultimately, like everything, it's how we choose to perceive the situation that matters.
I am curious, what part matters, the choosing or the perception? What is the "mattering" in this case? Personal comfort and desire?
The end result is what matters (the choosing and the perception are both pieces of this), and that it coincide with the desire.
RE: to kill or not to kill? that is the question. - Unbound - 07-24-2013
What does it mean, then, for something to matter? Does that mean that is all that is important? Only the fulfillment of one's desires is important, then?
RE: to kill or not to kill? that is the question. - isis - 07-24-2013
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RE: to kill or not to kill? that is the question. - Marc - 07-24-2013
Death occurs naturally in all ecosystems. Death actually creates more life in a natural system because all is reused and there is no waste (unlike our unnatural human systems). Death is no big deal in an ecosystem as all things eat each other and all grow from that.
But, in a man made system things get wasted constantly and bugs are killed out of prejudice of not liking a certain species for no reason other than we don't like it around us. I think that's racist (specist?) and unfair to single out certain things that we kill when its not imperative to our well-being that we do so.
I'm a vegan because I see that path as the most compassionate one to travel. I don't NEED to kill of abuse animals for my well-being. If its between a viper and my child, I'd kill the viper, but good planning and design can reduce almost all need to kill an animal.
RE: to kill or not to kill? that is the question. - Karl - 07-25-2013
(07-24-2013, 03:45 PM)Tanner Wrote: What does it mean, then, for something to matter? Does that mean that is all that is important? Only the fulfillment of one's desires is important, then?
Nothing inherantly matters/is-important. For something to matter/be-important a choice has to be made.
Since we are individual beings, experiencing individuality, our desires are all we have. Sure further up the chain we are unity, but that's not what we're right here, right now experiencing.
RE: to kill or not to kill? that is the question. - Marc - 07-25-2013
See also http://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthread.php?tid=6767
RE: to kill or not to kill? that is the question. - Unbound - 07-25-2013
(07-25-2013, 01:03 AM)Karl Wrote:(07-24-2013, 03:45 PM)Tanner Wrote: What does it mean, then, for something to matter? Does that mean that is all that is important? Only the fulfillment of one's desires is important, then?
Nothing inherantly matters/is-important. For something to matter/be-important a choice has to be made.
Since we are individual beings, experiencing individuality, our desires are all we have. Sure further up the chain we are unity, but that's not what we're right here, right now experiencing.
How do you know? Aha we are unity now, you just have the choice whether or not to acknowledge it.
We are not ONLY individual beings though, that is a self-identification made up in one's own mind, an ingrained conceptualization of identity.
Of course, the whole nature of reality cannot be divided from our interaction with it through mind, but that doesn't make it "not real" because the mind is a real experience. You say all we have are desires, but is that really true? You experience nothing but unending desire?
I, personally, think that the view that nothing matters or is important is an escapism from a reality of causes and effects. It is an attempt to negate responsibility, imo. This has nothing to do with karma, but the raw fact that we are all parts interacting with other parts and absolutely everything we do has a significant effect on the whole in some way or other.
There is no nothing, there is always something being moved, being touched and influenced by every and any activity that occurs in existence, so how could anything be meaningless? We choose to devoid life of meaning to have to avoid dealing with the responsibility of the ripples of our actions, or to support the view of our own worthlessness or our absolute worth.
In one way, this can be used to achieve peace, but if one dwells forever in "emptiness" like remaining indefinitely in any other state results in stagnation of consciousness.
Maybe you will find this interesting to read: http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/e-books/published_books/gelug_kagyu_mahamudra/pt1/mm_01.html
RE: to kill or not to kill? that is the question. - BrownEye - 07-25-2013
Killing anything consciously is a choice. What is the reason for the choice? Normally it is fear. Fear is normally a lack of understanding.
RE: to kill or not to kill? that is the question. - Guardian - 07-25-2013
Negative Karma is difficult to burn off as it is, there is no benefit in adding more Karmic Debt to yourself unnecessarily.
RE: to kill or not to kill? that is the question. - AnthroHeart - 07-25-2013
I killed a spider the other day because my mom told me to do it. Otherwise I would have let it go.
I hadn't realized that negative karma was difficult to burn off. I hope that act won't incur much debt.
My mom has me doing many things I don't like doing.
RE: to kill or not to kill? that is the question. - Unbound - 07-25-2013
I have always enjoyed the story of Milarepa who I feel really exemplifies the way that it is much harder to undo actions than to do them, much more difficult to right karma than to create it.
http://buddhism.about.com/od/whoswhoinbuddhism/a/Milarepa.htm
RE: to kill or not to kill? that is the question. - xise - 07-25-2013
(07-25-2013, 08:22 PM)Gemini Wolf Wrote: I killed a spider the other day because my mom told me to do it. Otherwise I would have let it go.
I hadn't realized that negative karma was difficult to burn off. I hope that act won't incur much debt.
My mom has me doing many things I don't like doing.
No one can force you to do anything. The more you respect your own wishes, the more she will respect your own wishes.
RE: to kill or not to kill? that is the question. - reeay - 07-26-2013
(07-23-2013, 08:50 AM)truesimultaneity Wrote: eventually i decided the time had come for me to kill it so i asked the person i was w/ to get me a paper towel (since they were in the kitchen) & i informed them i planned to kill it. they got the paper towel but said things like, 'why don't we just move it to another room?' & 'don't u care about it now after watching it for so long?' i replied w/ something like, 'i do care about it. that's y i want to send it to heaven now.' ...but i was unable to kill it so we gave it a ride on the paper towel to another room.
So what made you change your mind from intending to kill the spider then deciding to let it go into another room? That is more intriguing than the question itself.
RE: to kill or not to kill? that is the question. - Monica - 07-26-2013
Related thread:
Bring4th Forums One > Olio v > Killing Cockroaches and Other Creepy Crawlies
(07-23-2013, 10:27 AM)Gemini Wolf Wrote: My friend's friend got a staph infection from a spider bite possibly, which turned into mrsa. So better to kill the spiders than to get bit. They had to cut his hole arm to remove the infection.
That's a shame. The 2.5 water from our machine kills MRSA.
(07-23-2013, 11:47 AM)Karl Wrote: They'll just reincarnate. Kill whatever you feel like.
Humans too? Your neighbor's dog?
(07-24-2013, 04:35 PM)truesimultaneity Wrote: i don't see death as a negative thing
Do you see killing as a negative thing?
Do you see a difference between death and causing the death of another being?
(07-24-2013, 07:26 PM)MarcRammer Wrote: Death occurs naturally in all ecosystems. Death actually creates more life in a natural system because all is reused and there is no waste (unlike our unnatural human systems). Death is no big deal in an ecosystem as all things eat each other and all grow from that.
But, in a man made system things get wasted constantly and bugs are killed out of prejudice of not liking a certain species for no reason other than we don't like it around us. I think that's racist (specist?) and unfair to single out certain things that we kill when its not imperative to our well-being that we do so.
I'm a vegan because I see that path as the most compassionate one to travel. I don't NEED to kill of abuse animals for my well-being. If its between a viper and my child, I'd kill the viper, but good planning and design can reduce almost all need to kill an animal.
Well said!
(07-25-2013, 01:03 AM)Karl Wrote: Nothing inherantly matters/is-important. For something to matter/be-important a choice has to be made.
Since we are individual beings, experiencing individuality, our desires are all we have. Sure further up the chain we are unity, but that's not what we're right here, right now experiencing.
Just wondering: Have you read the Law of One books? If so, are you disregarding the need to choose one's path in this density?
RE: to kill or not to kill? that is the question. - Spaced - 07-26-2013
There were a bunch of spiders in my bathroom who I decided to make friends with instead of killing or relocating outside. Fast-forward to last week when a bunch of carpenter ants tried to move into my bathroom and were eaten up by the spiders. Thank you to my spider friends for stopping that infestation!
RE: to kill or not to kill? that is the question. - isis - 07-26-2013
[deleted / swiss cheese]
RE: to kill or not to kill? that is the question. - reeay - 07-26-2013
That's OK, insects don't really have the nervous system and such that mammals and other beings have. They will probably come right back as a spider or something. It's pretty fascinating how one little creature could help in our seeking (ie. think about things a bit more deeply than before) lol. It's like there is a teacher in every being and situation.
Sorry I totally missed that post. Thanks for the thought provoking thread.
RE: to kill or not to kill? that is the question. - Marc - 07-26-2013
(07-26-2013, 10:33 AM)Spaced Wrote: There were a bunch of spiders in my bathroom who I decided to make friends with instead of killing or relocating outside. Fast-forward to last week when a bunch of carpenter ants tried to move into my bathroom and were eaten up by the spiders. Thank you to my spider friends for stopping that infestation!
That's the way to work! I have/had a friend spider that made a web in my side view mirror and rode around with me catching bugs from everywhere. I had a fun relationship with it. I watched its net designs and refurbishments and it was fun a relationship with a portion if the creator. Lovely critters, really. Stop hating and love and get to know all the aspects of the creator!
(Speaking of making 2D friends, I met two lovely otters at my work and they followed me everywhere I cleaned at the zoo. Just beautiful!)
I loved what Monica said: killing something is completely different than accepting the death of something. If you don't NEED to kill it, just let it go on and continue the rest of its incarnation in peace.
Ra spoke about how when our lifespans got shorter it hindered us from learning more in a shorter incarnation, I think it could be the same with 2D life forms. When we prematurely kill them, they have to restart the next incarnation from square one instead of getting a full incarnational experiance.
RE: to kill or not to kill? that is the question. - BrownEye - 07-26-2013
(07-26-2013, 01:05 PM)rie Wrote: It's like there is a teacher in every being and situation.
I know when we hit certain frequencies everything is a miracle and a 'sign'.
RE: to kill or not to kill? that is the question. - isis - 07-26-2013
[deleted / swiss cheese]
RE: to kill or not to kill? that is the question. - Karl - 07-28-2013
(07-26-2013, 03:54 AM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote: Just wondering: Have you read the Law of One books? If so, are you disregarding the need to choose one's path in this density?I'm not picking either path. I'm staying here.