(07-08-2020, 10:41 PM)peregrine Wrote: That's absurd. This is one small example.
LA Times Jan 24, 1988 Wrote:MOSCOW —
A five-year investigation has uncovered bribery and corruption that cost the Uzbekistan Soviet Republic at least $6.5 billion and involved high-ranking officials including the son-in-law of the late Soviet leader Leonid I. Brezhnev, Pravda said Saturday.
The official Communist Party newspaper said the corruption was institutionalized, and that involved officials and millionaire entrepreneurs in the Central Asian republic hired bodyguards and bought police protection.
You will notice that the date is 1988, and it is much after the 'perestroika' and 'glasnost' started. By 1988, the future oligarchs which would destroy entire Eastern Bloc had already formed. Everything was already gone by that date.
Quote:millions of citizens were held at near poverty wages and lifestyles
Boy....
Guaranteed jobs, free housing, free vehicles, free transportation, free healthcare, free education, free childcare, free social clubs, free hobby clubs, free sports clubs, reasonable work hours, reasonable retirement age and pay, paid vacations...
What was already freely given to everybody in such countries as USSR like the above, require 2 spouses working for ~40 years in well paid jobs to acquire and keep in US today. And preferably, a white collar couple in well paid jobs. With sufficient job stability.
And they can lose everything at any given moment - like how many people lost everything in 2008, despite being well educated professionals.
Even the amenities listed above are what define how someone will live. If you cant acquire them, you are not only poor, but your survival is in danger in a place like US.
In USSR they were guaranteed things - to the extent that nobody thought they could lose those when moving to capitalism. Nobody told them that. When they lost those, they were much surprised. They did not imagine that those things were also being put into the market...
Quote: (to the extent that defectors were imprisoned or worse)
For majority of USSR's history, you could move abroad if you paid back the free education etc you were given.
Quote:I don't understand the context of your distortions.
You dont understand the context, because you still hold an immense amount of conditioning from the decades long false illusion which the existing establishment created to protect itself.
For example you didnt know that you could move abroad in USSR. And you probably dont know that US government still taxes you even if you move abroad today. As long as they get the tax, you can live anywhere - wherever you want. Of course, if you do anything sufficiently significant to upset US, there are extradition laws. So, in a sense, as an American you can never move abroad, wherever you go.
Or, you didnt know that the amenities which the people in Eastern Bloc took for granted and did not even imagine that they could be lost, require a lifetime of precarious, back-breaking work in 'free' US. Dont work for this back breaking corporation, its your choice. Youll have to work for the other anyway. If you dont, homelessness and potentially being shoved outside the city after getting your tent confiscated in the winter and dying by freezing awaits you. That is, if you dont opt for going to California, where they treat homeless more humanely than many US states, of course...
But that is never talked about. Just like the other false-illusion creating lies.
Lying by omission.
And that makes the exploitation and negativity go on - 'This may not be perfect, but it is the best system we have' -> It isnt. It is designed to be bad.
Ardor is necessary to dismantle the false illusion so reality can be seen, and then change can happen.
Quote:yet abundant riches were harvested in arms manufacturing, resource extraction, etc. Where do think all that money went?
Military spending. Eastern Bloc had created and maintained a military enough to win Ww3 and then the aftermath despite having only ~15% of world's resources. US controlled ~75%. Eastern Bloc had to do this because there was a pending nuclear attack plan which US decided on and started implementing after Ww2 until mid 1960s. After that, Eastern Bloc had a brief respite and their life standards immensely improved, sending Kennedy Admn. into a panic, thinking that because USSR's life standards were increased to 2nd world standards within a decade, other countries would take their example and try 'independent development' (aka socialism), and kick US businesses and interests out or damage their profits. This is called the 'Domino Theory'.
That is the reason for Vietnam war. It was created to stop the 'domino effect' and 'make an example of' countries which could try independent development.
Additionally Kennedy started space race and an accompanying arms race to starve USSR of gdp. Which Reagan again picked up when his term started.
...
So basically Eastern Bloc had to spend majority of its gdp for being ready for a pending global nuclear war instead of consumer spending. Because of US literally building up to it, and even almost doing it a few times.
In Reagan administration only, there were 2 cases in which world was saved from a nuclear war only by the decision of the Eastern Bloc to not retaliate against an obvious attack. Reagan ordered attack drills which precisely simulated large scale attacks with actual forces - something which is literally indistinguishable from an actual attack until very last critical moments.
Forcing Eastern Bloc to spend all their GDP for Ww3 preparedness aside, the delirious actions of US establishment almost caused destruction of human civilization in 4-5 total occasions, 2 being during Reagan's term.
(07-09-2020, 05:32 AM)aneelley Wrote: I'm so glad you are attempting to clarify the terribly negatively distorted viewpoints of these very negatively polarized "entities" on this forum. ..... This whole right wing nonsense that we have been witnessing around the world for years now, is becoming part of the end result of a carefully crafted global message of negativity and yes, hate, of "the other", of those that are different than the ones in power. Need I mention exactly the description of what "those in power" represents here?
Leaving actually negatively polarized entities aside, there are many people who are not ready for 4d vibration (positive or negative) who try to revert back to 3d through 2d behavior patterns. Like 'us vs others', the herd behavior, going back to early 3d concepts like race, nation, tribe, traditionalism, religion and other things.
This is not a particularly negative thing, than it is a coping mechanism and a regression. The proper density for these entities is not early 4d. Its at most late 3d, for some, its mid 3d.
So, there is such a regressive segment, trying to go back to 'good old times'.
Not that those old times were good actually - they were good because they were children then and had little responsibility - the weight of the world, which was much heavier, was borne by their parents and caretakers.
But of course, there are likely noticeable segments of people who want to go back to more understandable patterns not because they are old and they remember 'good old times' of 60 years ago when they were children, but because they want to go back to more simpler 3d patterns since they are not ready for 4d - even if they are young themselves. So you can find a 30-40 year old person who is likely in a 3d/4d transitional body, but who at the same time wants to go back to 'simpler' times or adopt simpler behavioral patterns of old ages. Religion, tradition, nationalism, tribalism and so on.
Best action would be to provide a proper 3d to 4d transitionary society which would ensure the well being and livelihoods of everyone and therefore letting them live their lives in peace and with well being.
The only problem with this is that these very segment above unwittingly enable actual negative entities using their biases and pushing exactly the opposite society than what they need.
(07-09-2020, 08:26 AM)flofrog Wrote: Just a little thought on Russia.
Being originally born in France i have had a few friends initially born in Russia, as a matter of fact two writers, both now not alive on Earth anymore. Both while recognizing that some good came out from the revolution in 1917, it came to immense losses with prisoners camps and elimination of any rebelling against central power, plus an incredible system of surveillance and spying on neighbors, giving anyone away as suspicious, practices not known as conducive to peace of mind and a sense of inner freedom.
From these two, their views on the fall of the Berlin wall and subsequent events did not so much as create a new corruption as mainly providing to the previous elites the means to continue the previous corruption, and unfortunately solidifying their power.
Indeed, the views of the former Eastern Bloc population from the segments which received good education, which succeeded in entering the top 20%-30% of the later capitalist society are always positive about the fall of Eastern Bloc. And most of these people end up being english speakers. You can find many on internet.
Not visible is the opinion of the people from the ordinary majority, from retirees who now have to subsist on scarce pay to their grandchildren who cant receive an education. They wont be english-speaking, having time to impart opinions on internet about former USSR or post capitalist Russia. They are the invisible majority.
Its not dissimilar to the capitalist US society - you can find many people on internet who think that they are 'middle class' in US, and yet, they are actually in the top 10%, if not 1%. And this is double-striking because 'middle class' term in US means 'working class', because the term was bastardized decades ago. So basically there are noticeable segments of Americans on internet who think they are working class, without even being aware that their income and assets qualify them in top 10% of their society. I even saw one who was in top 1%, but she thought she was 'middle class', because, obviously, there are people much richer than her and there obviously are poor people 'out there somewhere'...
Quote:The one benefit they used to talk about was the relative indépendance of satellite countries which were included in the previous USSR.
Indeed, USSR did everything to prop up its satellites, ramping up their industry at the expense of its own. Which was used by nationalists as a propaganda point in later Russia.
Incidentally this is also what relatively kept the life standards of those satellite countries in post-Eastern Bloc period when the entered European Union. EU protected the social democratic economic protections and guarantees for the people to a certain degree, and the industry which was built into these countries by major efforts of USSR kept some of these countries' economy.
But, if you ask the uninformed in those countries, things 'just happened' and they are now much better than before by the virtue of turning capitalist. They have no idea what could befall on them if they actually went capitalist like Russia instead of going social democrat inside Eu. They have no idea that still could happen to them if neoliberalism takes hold in Eu as some internal and external sources (US) are trying to make happen...
Quote:Also they were both very adamant about the majority of Russian people totally able to see through the official propaganda and exacerbating in fact their deep sense of humor....
Yeah. Many Russians think that...
That they were able to 'see through propaganda' by labeling everything their government/TV said as 'lies', and instead going on to believe what they saw in CIA bootleg tapes as 'true'.
Thats how many Russians believed that life in US was like how it was depicted in selected movies in CIA bootleg video tapes. And that is how there are still Russians who believe there isnt homelessness in US today. They didnt believe their TV when it said that there were a lot of people who live in poverty in US or homeless in NY living in cardboard boxes. They believed the movies they saw instead. There is a reason why CIA told Movie producers to always show black actors in suits and well to do as early as 1950s explicitly, telling them that doing otherwise (depicting them more realistically as they are treated in US society) would show US in a bad light.
So, basically, knowing the region a bit, i can just say that those old Russians did not see through propaganda as they self-profess, but they just cynically dismissed anything they were told by their government due to Eastern European / Russian cynicism and fatalism. Which also plagues a lot of regions, from Balkans to parts of Anatolia.