Trump rally in Tulsa causing an earthquake and demonstrating a case study

[Dtris]

I think that we are all coming at this discussion from different starting points, which explains some of the disharmony in this post. Therefore, so as not to add any more to the thread I won’t speak to anyone’s post in particular, but will explain my own starting point so people can understand that I’m neither crazy, stupid, nor a Klan member for not hating Trump.

I started out on the Hillary side in 2016. Basically, I thought that Trump was dangerous if put in a position that he was neither experienced in, nor, I believed, mentally fit for. But I hated Hillary as well. She was a career politician, which is probably the meanest epithet you could throw at anybody, to begin with. Second, she was a Clinton, and I felt uneasy at the idea of American dynasties, their connection with intelligence agencies, murders, that sort of thing. Then there was always the fact that she couldn’t stay on her feet for more than ten minutes at a time, it seemed, making her physically unfit, if nothing else, for the office of the presidency. Still, I voted for her, thinking her the lesser of two very foregone evils.

That changed directly after the election. Just before it, I saw the massive increase in anti-Trump rhetoric in the media, and expected it to tone down after the election, seeing as the media had done the same for Bush directly after 9/11 happened and there was all that talk about how it turns out his grandfather helped the Nazis, he was basically asleep at the wheel when the planes hit the towers, etc etc. The news kept repeating this idea in response: Even if you don’t respect the president, you must respect the office of the president.

Not in this case. It just kept getting more and more vicious, and after a while, they stopped any pretense at fact-checking. That was when I got really suspicious, and decided to heed Mark Twain, who had been whispering in my ear for some time: “When you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to stop and reflect.”

And I realized: the media wouldn’t be trying so hard to paint him as the ultimate evil if they didn’t really want him out, and for more immediate reasons (to them) than most of us wanted him out for.

Which meant there is a real fight going on at very high levels, a fight that we have never seen before. The Democrats and Republicans fight, sure, but it’s always been a staged sort of thing, kind of there to reassure us that there are still two distinct parties, not two arms of the same interests, held up to keep us fighting each other instead of targeting those with actual control. This is a real, shirt-off, in-the-mud, biting and eye-gouging-allowed street fight that we’re seeing, and to be honest, if it’s Trump versus the career politicians, the corrupt intelligence agencies, and the controlled media — well, damn. I guess I’m rooting for Trump.

The media response and more importantly the massive republican main stream push back that Trump received is the best evidence for him being exactly what he says he is. A person who wants what is best for America and has certain ideas about what that means.

The media has been so divisive and lied so much about Trump that you basically can't believe anything you read or hear about him. Anything he does which is good is ignored and the racial hate fostering is out of this world. If the establishment politicians hate Trump, then I think he is the obvious choice.

Many people in Nazi Germany did not vote for Nazis in order to have them kill or repress anyone either. They voted them with good intentions in order to have 'Germany rebuilt'.

You or other people supporting some group out of good intentions does not make that group a well intentioned group....

This will be my last post in response to anything you have to say on this topic as I doubt it would be useful to engage any further.

You have lumped myself, and anyone else who voted for Trump into a group you define not only as STS, but crazy, and then when I make my position known, you say my defense is proof that I identify with the group you put me in.

You have equated support of Trump for support of extremist beliefs that also support Trump while promoting right wing extremist conspiracy theories. You have equated voting for Trump or supporting his administration as the equivalent of voting for Nazis.

That kind of behavior is not the basis for a useful discussion. Since I am working on blue ray lets be completely honest. That kind of behavior is utterly disgusting. You are either being intentionally disingenuous, or you do not realize that what you are doing is judging people based on your own biases and your preconceived idea of what they should be like based on the group you assigned them to. Then you use the designation of the group identity to attempt to shut down discussion and dissent and limit the argument on the trivialities of your positions instead of allowing the root of your arguments to be debated. The following quote illustrates this.

Such people wouldnt be a problem if they werent the ones who hold the strings. But they are.

Its not people like Dtris - who dont want any harm on anyone - that they put there to talk in town halls or be the spearhead of the 'new GOP'.

They put these crazy people there to talk. To organize. To count the votes. To call the shots.

Of course, these extremist lunatics wont be looking to have sane, moderate people who dont mean any harm on anyone as their leaders. They are not screaming on top of their lungs to get sane people elected to effect sane policies. And you cant trick them into believing that someone who is sane and reasonable is actually an extremist and therefore deceive them to bypass their will and get those sane people elected despite these extremists want an extremist.

They will get the leaders they want.

That's why Dtris' arguments dont hold water. Yeah he means no harm. Yeah he does not vote for such things.

But these people do.

And they call the shots.

Whether you realize it or not your attributions of supporting Trump being equivalent to supporting Nazis, to being responsible for Bush War Crimes, for not caring if people starve and die, for supporting insane leaders and policies are designed to stifle the opposition from argument and dismiss their views out of hand without actual debate. It is framing the discussion in a moral framework that then excludes those it deems as other than the in group. The possibility for rational debate is therefore limited to those who accept the premises of your beliefs. Anyone who does not accept those premises need not say anything, and if they are then you will say they support Nazi like beliefs, support starving people, or support war crimes.

I see what has happened recently with the Media, the radical left, the riots, the fear mongering over the virus. There is a culture war going on right now and the left/progressive/social justice is the side which is using communist tactics, trying to change the way we view history, trying to change what is allowed as a society, all in ways that reduce Freedom and Liberty.

I believe freedom is the highest ideal of Love. The second distortion of the Law of One is the Law of Free Will. The abrogation of free will in any respect is not a service to others belief. However, I also don't believe that the people who are rioting and advocating for changes that reduce freedom and increase the control of the elite are themselves service to self. The vast majority are doing what they believe is right.

I do not believe the people who believe differently than me are service to self, or even have insidious intentions. I do not blame them for supporting those who seek to destroy what I love. The sins of the father will not be carried by the children. I do not believe anyone can be responsible for others, and only responsible for being deceived, not for the actions of the deceiver. I do not believe that voting for a candidate means you have to carry their sins for things you disagree with. No candidate will ever be perfect for me or anyone else.

I believe you have good intentions, and think you are on the side of good and righteousness. However you want to decide what to support is up to you. Freedom and Liberty are my guiding principles and I support those whose actions support those principles. That is how I decide what to support. Trump has done so more than the establishment politicians of either party. Of course, you have to try to find some objective news, or at least places that actually report the president's actions to know that. Where you are coming from on this point will dismiss this opinion out of hand with some logic like 'I don't even know what is going on'. The impulse is mutual, I realize that and try to look at other evidence if presented.

Those who hate Trump seem to want to use compassion as their guiding principle. Compassion will be used by those who desire power over others to lead them to hell, and make it look like salvation. Those who seek to lead the sheep will always frame the sheep as the heroes. Compassion makes a great yolk for guiding the sheep. All you have to do is say this is what you need to believe, say, and do to be compassionate, and condemn those who are not. Social pressure will do the rest.

If you don't believe me then ask yourself, if before you posted your religious right extremist post earlier, if you for even a second doubted whether you should post it or not because of how it might be viewed or responded to? I guarantee that most people in this country right now who disagree with the agenda of the leftists, are afraid to speak up right now. Afraid to be banned for posting their opinion or belief. Afraid to be vilified for supporting the President of the United States. Even if they still post, like I have, they still had to think about whether they should post and if it is worth it.