Occult, Qabalah, Golden Dawn disillusionment

[Lighthead]

I admit, in general I feel that while people find me perhaps interesting or curious, I don't feel there is much interest in my actual approach to things. I think that were I to share my actual views of reality you would likely view me as very archaic.

Well, I for one am very interested in what you do as far as ritual goes. I just think that some people, like me, are scared of asking you anything because you get so crabby. I, for one, feel like if I ask you anything you'll shut me down just for laughs. I can't speak for anyone else, but that's how I feel. And I'm not saying that you would do any of those things, but that's just the vibe I get.

[Aion]

Well that kind of speaks for itself. Most people who have no interest in rituals usually cite the fact that it seems overly complex, I've heard that lots. Also heard from lots that they don't see any point in ritual or that it seems to be the long way around. These opinions are pretty common.

Thing is, if you aren't naturally drawn to ritual magic then my assumption is maybe it's just not the path for you. There is a concept in gnosticism and theosophy there are primary 'rays' which people work upon according to the colouration of their soul. Ritual magic corresponds with the violet ray and is the most complex ray to work with.

I feel very disinclined towards trying to convince others of its uses as I assume if one has no connection to it themselves then they likely won't get much more than confusion from me. Let me just say that I believe enlightenment to just be a milestone, not the end of the road.

[Aion]

I admit, in general I feel that while people find me perhaps interesting or curious, I don't feel there is much interest in my actual approach to things. I think that were I to share my actual views of reality you would likely view me as very archaic.

Well, I for one am very interested in what you do as far as ritual goes. I just think that some people, like me, are scared of asking you anything because you get so crabby. I, for one, feel like if I ask you anything you'll shut me down just for laughs. I can't speak for anyone else, but that's how I feel. And I'm not saying that you would do any of those things, but that's just the vibe I get.

I understand that, since I am aware of the state of my energy at this point in time. That being said, I certainly do not have this attitude for amusement, it is more of a brooding state. I admit I feel defensive kind of on principle because it is rare that I ever find anyone who sees eye to eye with me. In fact I'm not sure I've ever really met anyone who quite sees things the way I do, although that's probably true for most people.

The fact of the matter is that I am protective of my practices because I believe they can be easily misinterpreted or twisted. I can't guarantee that any of my own methods will be useful or even safe for others so I am reluctant to share details. In the end though I guess I just really feel that people already tend to find their own paths and do so without any of my help so sometimes I'm just not sure there is any point to my attempting to 'teach'. It seems everyone ultimately creates their own ideas anyways, so mine are just another fish in the sea.

[Aion]

Also, all that being said, I am actually infinitely more familiar with meditation and its techniques than I am with ritual magic which is something I have explored very slowly over a period of time while actually just meditating daily. However, my beliefs and view of reality has opened up ritual work fairly easily for me. The hard part is getting to know the tools.

You say you believe in the power of symbols. You can view a ritual as a 'symbol complex', it is the careful arrangement of concepts and energies. Of course, the thing that draws me to ritual magic is the point that is most refuted by modern magicians and that is the reality of entities, thought-forms and deities. Most modern magicians hold a view similar to Matt1, seeing these things as psychology. I, however, believe that is only one level of these things and it is much weirder and mysterious than people know.

Of course, I actually know and have spoken with Golden Dawn adepts and the interesting thing is that they all also went through a period of skepticism regarding the realities of the practice.

Now, that being said, I think I am weird even by magicians standards. I have mostly seen people approach it from the 'aspect of the self' perception but I admit that I genuinely believe in the actual existence of other entities, deities and higher planes of vibration and reality.

So, while some may invoke an elemental or something and feel they are just interacting with a self-reflection I believe it's possible to interact with actual entities. However, I think this depends on a willingness to see them as such, to see them as an other-self.

[Aion]

Final word, I don't actually care that you guys do or do not have an interest or respect for these practices or any practice. I was mostly reactive because I didn't understand why there seemed to be the need to put the tradition down. It was less about the subject and more about the principle. I can't help but aid the underdog sometimes.

[Bluebell]

I feel very disinclined towards trying to convince others of its uses as I assume if one has no connection to it themselves then they likely won't get much more than confusion from me.

or maybe they're more interested in living life, like we're here to do.

[Bluebell]

Final word, I don't actually care that you guys do or do not have an interest or respect for these practices or any practice. I was mostly reactive because I didn't understand why there seemed to be the need to put the tradition down. It was less about the subject and more about the principle. I can't help but aid the underdog sometimes.

ritual magic is as valid as any other path the creator explores. just because some aren't interested doesn't mean it isn't interesting.

[Aion]

I feel very disinclined towards trying to convince others of its uses as I assume if one has no connection to it themselves then they likely won't get much more than confusion from me.

or maybe they're more interested in living life, like we're here to do.

Sure, although some people do actually include that as part of their lives. Again, why the need to refute those who do find benefit in the practice? Maybe for some people it is a genuine aspect of their life experience?

My point is that trying to explain ritual magic to someone who has no interest or affinity for it isn't helping anyone. I've got no problem that people have other interests.

[Aion]

Final word, I don't actually care that you guys do or do not have an interest or respect for these practices or any practice. I was mostly reactive because I didn't understand why there seemed to be the need to put the tradition down. It was less about the subject and more about the principle. I can't help but aid the underdog sometimes.

ritual magic is as valid as any other path the creator explores. just because some aren't interested doesn't mean it isn't interesting.

That was basically my initial point.

[Aion]

Oh, I guess I should mention that I don't agree with all of Matt1's historical 'facts' regarding the Western Mystery Tradition and while not to discount his study and observation I think in general people would be best served examing the history themselves rather than taking anyone else's word for it. He has presented his findings as though they are fact, but the truth is that there is lots of speculation and many different versions of the history.

(Like the fact that Israel Regardie was a member of the Stella Matutina outside of his interaction with Crowley and even later refuted being identified with Thelema which is a completely different tradition from the Golden Dawn even though it borrowed lots. He had also studied Rosicrucianism before ever meeting Crowley.)

[Bluebell]

I feel very disinclined towards trying to convince others of its uses as I assume if one has no connection to it themselves then they likely won't get much more than confusion from me.

or maybe they're more interested in living life, like we're here to do.

Sure, although some people do actually include that as part of their lives. Again, why the need to refute those who do find benefit in the practice? 

i wasn't refuting. i was saying - or failing to say - that not interested doesn't mean not able. someone could have been a pianist in past lives but have no interest in playing because in their current life they wanted to explore something else. does that mean they don't understand music? no. does it mean music isn't valid or interesting? no.

[Aion]

I feel very disinclined towards trying to convince others of its uses as I assume if one has no connection to it themselves then they likely won't get much more than confusion from me.

or maybe they're more interested in living life, like we're here to do.

Sure, although some people do actually include that as part of their lives. Again, why the need to refute those who do find benefit in the practice? 

i wasn't refuting. i was saying - or failing to say - that not interested doesn't mean not able. someone could have been a pianist in past lives but have no interest in playing because in their current life they wanted to explore something else. does that mean they don't understand music? no. does it mean music isn't valid or interesting? no.

I misunderstood you, I thought you were saying it in a manner that was dismissive. My point was that I'm not going to preach.

[Aion]

Anyways, yeah, I think I'll step out now, getting a little out of hand. Sorry, folks.

[Bluebell]

I feel very disinclined towards trying to convince others of its uses as I assume if one has no connection to it themselves then they likely won't get much more than confusion from me.

or maybe they're more interested in living life, like we're here to do.

Sure, although some people do actually include that as part of their lives. Again, why the need to refute those who do find benefit in the practice? 

i wasn't refuting. i was saying - or failing to say - that not interested doesn't mean not able. someone could have been a pianist in past lives but have no interest in playing because in their current life they wanted to explore something else. does that mean they don't understand music? no. does it mean music isn't valid or interesting? no.

I misunderstood you, I thought you were saying it in a manner that was dismissive. My point was that I'm not going to preach.

no, i have a lot of respect for ritual magic, in fact i was very interested in it but something in me always says NO. very clear. i don't know why and until i do i will not go there. but of course it's awesome, but that's the word. AWEsome. it's not something to dabble in. it's not something for most people imo, and there's no shame in that. like Spiderman said, with great power...

[Matt1]

As for my current practice and the practice i have been doing for a good few years is simply a daily meditation for an hour on the breath. Rather than anything more in depth, beyond the practice of prayer and meditation, rituals boil down to visualization or indigo ray work.

[Aion]

I disagree, personally but I can understand the conclusion. I think ritual is accessing and stimulating to all of the energy centers in different ways.

[Matt1]

I am now getting more convinced that the only true spiritual practice is being the Love in the moment and Meditating, as well as having a far philosophical understanding through a good source such as the Ra material. So there you have it.

Thanks for the honest self-expression.

You seem to waver a bit between the value of these mystery traditions, and their lack of effectiveness in being able to generate deep change.

Perhaps the issue here is, as Aion referenced, that you are studying it in isolation, rather than with other-selves.

I remember the huge leap in understanding and catalyst from reading the Law of One for years by myself (even though I had sparse contact with a few individual seekers), and joining this forum almost 4 years ago (about 4 months short of four years).  

It is through positive interaction with other-selves that we can make the most progress on our path.

The various unmanifested activities of the self were found to be productive in some degree of penetration of the veil. In general, we may say that by far the most vivid and even extravagant opportunities for the piercing of the veil are a result of the interaction of polarized entities.

83.17 Questioner: Could you expand on what you mean by that interaction of polarized entities in piercing the veil?

Ra: I am Ra. We shall state two items of note. The first is the extreme potential for polarization in the relationship of two polarized entities which have embarked upon the service-to-others path or, in some few cases, the service-to-self path. Secondly, we would note that effect which we have learned to call the doubling effect. Those of like mind which together seek shall far more surely find.

Yeah i agree with that, its just difficult finding a group of people you can work with in person on a weekly basis.

[Matt1]

I might take up the study of the Qabalah and Rituals again at one point. At least for now i am leaving it until i feel the calling.

[Aion]

And so the path continues...

[Lighthead]

Let me just say that I believe enlightenment to just be a milestone, not the end of the road.

I agree with this as well. But I basically can't say that I'm anywhere as near to enlightenment when I've just been meditating for less than two months.

[Matt1]

Well you have different enlightenment's. You have the graduation from density to density and the steps into the octave being the real deal, but even then experience continues?

[Lighthead]

Also, all that being said, I am actually infinitely more familiar with meditation and its techniques than I am with ritual magic which is something I have explored very slowly over a period of time while actually just meditating daily. However, my beliefs and view of reality has opened up ritual work fairly easily for me. The hard part is getting to know the tools.

You say you believe in the power of symbols. You can view a ritual as a 'symbol complex', it is the careful arrangement of concepts and energies. Of course, the thing that draws me to ritual magic is the point that is most refuted by modern magicians and that is the reality of entities, thought-forms and deities. Most modern magicians hold a view similar to Matt1, seeing these things as psychology. I, however, believe that is only one level of these things and it is much weirder and mysterious than people know.

Of course, I actually know and have spoken with Golden Dawn adepts and the interesting thing is that they all also went through a period of skepticism regarding the realities of the practice.

Now, that being said, I think I am weird even by magicians standards. I have mostly seen people approach it from the 'aspect of the self' perception but I admit that I genuinely believe in the actual existence of other entities, deities and higher planes of vibration and reality.

So, while some may invoke an elemental or something and feel they are just interacting with a self-reflection I believe it's possible to interact with actual entities. However, I think this depends on a willingness to see them as such, to see them as an other-self.

I actually see what you said there as fascinating, but to me it seems overly complicated in practical reality. Did you have an early exposure to ritual magic? Early in life?

[Lighthead]

Well you have different enlightenment's. You have the graduation from density to density and the steps into the octave being the real deal, but even then experience continues?

But I wish I could have heard Ra talk about the Buddhist conception of reality since there are some seemingly conflicting ideas. For example, can enlightenment be equated to graduation to 4D? I just wish Don had queried Ra on those points.

[Aion]

Also, all that being said, I am actually infinitely more familiar with meditation and its techniques than I am with ritual magic which is something I have explored very slowly over a period of time while actually just meditating daily. However, my beliefs and view of reality has opened up ritual work fairly easily for me. The hard part is getting to know the tools.

You say you believe in the power of symbols. You can view a ritual as a 'symbol complex', it is the careful arrangement of concepts and energies. Of course, the thing that draws me to ritual magic is the point that is most refuted by modern magicians and that is the reality of entities, thought-forms and deities. Most modern magicians hold a view similar to Matt1, seeing these things as psychology. I, however, believe that is only one level of these things and it is much weirder and mysterious than people know.

Of course, I actually know and have spoken with Golden Dawn adepts and the interesting thing is that they all also went through a period of skepticism regarding the realities of the practice.

Now, that being said, I think I am weird even by magicians standards. I have mostly seen people approach it from the 'aspect of the self' perception but I admit that I genuinely believe in the actual existence of other entities, deities and higher planes of vibration and reality.

So, while some may invoke an elemental or something and feel they are just interacting with a self-reflection I believe it's possible to interact with actual entities. However, I think this depends on a willingness to see them as such, to see them as an other-self.

I actually see what you said there as fascinating, but to me it seems overly complicated in practical reality. Did you have an early exposure to ritual magic? Early in life?

Honestly it's always sort of been within me. I remember seeing visions of rituals as I was growing up and understood it but it wasn't until after high school that I actually learned what it all was. So I knew these things without knowing what they were called.

Sure it seems overly complicated, but that's because it's a sophisticated system. The way it was expressed to me is that different systems have different functions. For an analogy, a space station and a bicycle are both vehicles but they have very different levels of sophistication. Bicycles are still cool, but they can't do what a space station does, just as a space station won't be able to accomplish simply what the bike is able to do easily. You have to choose your tools.

There are much simpler forms of ritual magic that aren't quite as in depth as some others. I actually have more experience with pagan/druidic rituals than I do with WMT. However, that being said, can I ask you, when you meditate is there any way you usually like to start or a particular space or position you like to be in?

[Aion]

Well you have different enlightenment's. You have the graduation from density to density and the steps into the octave being the real deal, but even then experience continues?

But I wish I could have heard Ra talk about the Buddhist conception of reality since there are some seemingly conflicting ideas. For example, can enlightenment be equated to graduation to 4D? I just wish Don had queried Ra on those points.

I would equate it will graduation myself, and so far Ra hasn't disagreed with me.

[Matt1]

Ra said that the Buddha Body is the body that is complete or 7th density. They also speak about not going into the bardo or time/space for the cycle of reincarnation. I assume from this that they are probably going all the way to 7th density? Maybe many are reincarnated 6th density wanderers who are just finishing the job.

[Lighthead]

Also, all that being said, I am actually infinitely more familiar with meditation and its techniques than I am with ritual magic which is something I have explored very slowly over a period of time while actually just meditating daily. However, my beliefs and view of reality has opened up ritual work fairly easily for me. The hard part is getting to know the tools.

You say you believe in the power of symbols. You can view a ritual as a 'symbol complex', it is the careful arrangement of concepts and energies. Of course, the thing that draws me to ritual magic is the point that is most refuted by modern magicians and that is the reality of entities, thought-forms and deities. Most modern magicians hold a view similar to Matt1, seeing these things as psychology. I, however, believe that is only one level of these things and it is much weirder and mysterious than people know.

Of course, I actually know and have spoken with Golden Dawn adepts and the interesting thing is that they all also went through a period of skepticism regarding the realities of the practice.

Now, that being said, I think I am weird even by magicians standards. I have mostly seen people approach it from the 'aspect of the self' perception but I admit that I genuinely believe in the actual existence of other entities, deities and higher planes of vibration and reality.

So, while some may invoke an elemental or something and feel they are just interacting with a self-reflection I believe it's possible to interact with actual entities. However, I think this depends on a willingness to see them as such, to see them as an other-self.

I actually see what you said there as fascinating, but to me it seems overly complicated in practical reality. Did you have an early exposure to ritual magic? Early in life?

Honestly it's always sort of been within me. I remember seeing visions of rituals as I was growing up and understood it but it wasn't until after high school that I actually learned what it all was. So I knew these things without knowing what they were called.

Sure it seems overly complicated, but that's because it's a sophisticated system. The way it was expressed to me is that different systems have different functions. For an analogy, a space station and a bicycle are both vehicles but they have very different levels of sophistication. Bicycles are still cool, but they can't do what a space station does, just as a space station won't be able to accomplish simply what the bike is able to do easily. You have to choose your tools.

There are much simpler forms of ritual magic that aren't quite as in depth as some others. I actually have more experience with pagan/druidic rituals than I do with WMT. However, that being said, can I ask you, when you meditate is there any way you usually like to start or a particular space or position you like to be in?

That's an interesting analogy. I hadn't thought about it in quite that way.

When I meditate, in the first five minutes or so, nothing is being accomplished. The only thing that is being accomplished is that I'm going more inwards. But as to answer your question more directly, I don't have a particular focus when I begin my meditation. I just let the thoughts flow in and out. I don't focus on any one thought or try to eliminate any thoughts. That's exactly what shikantaza is. I don't focus on my breath or anything. I just let the thoughts come in and out. I don't feel any sense of bliss in these first five minutes or so. Like I said, it's just a proxy to allow my mind to go deeper. For me this is much more effective than focusing on your breath. I can't speak for anybody else, but this technique is absolute magic for me. Maybe it's just the way my brain is wired.

Why do you ask?

[Lighthead]

Ra said that the Buddha Body is the body that is complete or 7th density. They also speak about not going into the bardo or time/space for the cycle of reincarnation. I assume from this that they are probably going all the way to 7th density? Maybe many are reincarnated 6th density wanderers who are just finishing the job.

Do you have a quote for this? Because I think that you might be talking about the quote where Ra is talking about 3rd density, 7th sub-density (the Buddha body).

[Matt1]

47.8 Questioner: In our esoteric literature numerous bodies are listed. I have here a list of the physical body, the etheric, the emotional, the astral, and the mental. Can you tell me if this listing is the proper number, and can you tell me the uses and purposes and effects, etc., of each of these or any other bodies that may be in our mind/body/spirit complex?

Ra: I am Ra. To answer your query fully would be the work of many sessions such as this one, for the interrelationships of the various bodies and each body’s effects in various situations is an enormous study. However, we shall begin by referring your minds back to the spectrum of true colors and the usage of this understanding in grasping the various densities of your octave.

We have the number seven repeated from the macrocosm to the microcosm in structure and experience. Therefore, it would only be expected that there would be seven basic bodies which we would perhaps be most lucid by stating as red-ray body, etc. However, we are aware that you wish to correspond these bodies mentioned with the color rays. This will be confusing, for various teachers have offered their teach/learning understanding in various terms. Thus one may name a subtle body one thing and another find a different name.

The red-ray body is your chemical body. However, it is not the body which you have as clothing in the physical. It is the unconstructed material of the body, the elemental body without form. This basic unformed material body is important to understand for there are healings which may be carried out by the simple understanding of the elements present in the physical vehicle.

The orange-ray body is the physical body complex. This body complex is still not the body you inhabit but rather the body formed without self-awareness, the body in the womb before the spirit/mind complex enters. This body may live without the inhabitation of the mind and spirit complexes. However, it seldom does so.

The yellow-ray body is your physical vehicle which you know of at this time and in which you experience catalyst. This body has the mind/body/spirit characteristics and is equal to the physical illusion, as you have called it.

The green-ray body is that body which may be seen in séance when what you call ectoplasm is furnished. This is a lighter body packed more densely with life. You may call this the astral body following some other teachings. Others have called this same body the etheric body. However, this is not correct in the sense that the etheric body is that body of gateway wherein intelligent energy is able to mold the mind/body/spirit complex.

The light body or blue-ray body may be called the devachanic body. There are many other names for this body especially in your so-called Indian Sutras or writings, for there are those among these peoples which have explored these regions and understand the various types of devachanic bodies. There are many, many types of bodies in each density, much like your own.

The indigo-ray body which we choose to call the etheric body is, as we have said, the gateway body. In this body form is substance and you may only see this body as that of light as it may mold itself as it desires.

The violet-ray body may perhaps be understood as what you might call the Buddha body or that body which is complete.

Each of these bodies has an effect upon your mind/body/spirit complex in your life beingness. The interrelationships, as we have said, are many and complex.

Perhaps one suggestion that may be indicated is this: The indigo-ray body may be used by the healer once the healer becomes able to place its consciousness in this etheric state. The violet-ray or Buddhic body is of equal efficacy to the healer for within it lies a sense of wholeness which is extremely close to unity with all that there is. These bodies are part of each entity and the proper use of them and understanding of them is, though far advanced from the standpoint of third-density harvest, nevertheless useful to the adept.

its not fully clear as to if they are talking about the greater octave or the sub octave, since no direct mention of the suboctave is made i can only assume that it is the greater octave.

[Lighthead]

its not fully clear as to if they are talking about the greater octave or the sub octave, since no direct mention of the suboctave is made i can only assume that it is the greater octave.

I've actually researched some threads on this question and answer (and similar ones). And I even created a thread on the general subject. The consensus in those threads is that the question and answer is referring to the sub-densities. And if that is the case, then Aion is right about Ra telling him that enlightenment is graduation to 4D.