[split] Mystery Schools and Initiation

[Agua]

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[Vasilisa]

The Ra material is quite different, not by not withholding information, but by not containing the element of initation.

This may sound strange, but I fully experienced my first initiation by reading the Law of One. Then there were two other face-to-face initiations with the initiator. The effect of face-to-face initiation is milder. The effect of Rа can be compared to an archetypal obsession, as I call it for myself. Of course, at the time of my introduction to the Law of One, I had absolutely no information about the metaphysical world.

[Agua]

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[Aion]

In my understanding, while initiation can be initiated by an incarnate individual, it can also happen from a disincarnate entity, or even simply the self from the inner planes. Initiation simply means to move towards the Law of One through the action of shedding distortions. It can take place in deep meditation, prayer, ceremonial focus, intense physical exertion or even in states of extreme exhaustion. There are many different ways to penetrate in to the self closer to the Creator, not all of them are pleasant.

42.16 ▶ Questioner: I had one experience in meditation which I spoke of before which was very profound approximately twenty years ago, a little less. What disciplines would be most applicable to re-create this situation and this type of experience?

Ra: I am Ra. Your experience would best be approached from the ceremonial magical stance. However, the Wanderer or adept shall have the far greater potential for this type of experience which, as you have undoubtedly analyzed to be the case, is one of an archetypal nature, one belonging to the roots of cosmic consciousness.

42.17 ▶ Questioner: Was that in any way related to the Golden Dawn in ceremonial magic?

Ra: I am Ra. The relationship was congruency.

42.18 ▶ Questioner: Then in attempting to reproduce this experience would I then best follow practices for the Order of the Golden Dawn in reproducing this?

Ra: I am Ra. To attempt to reproduce an initiatory experience is to move, shall we say, backwards. However, the practice of this form of service to others is appropriate in your case working with your associates. It is not well for positively polarized entities to work singly. The reasons for this are obvious.

42.19 ▶ Questioner: Then this experience was a form of initiation? Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. Yes.

[Aion]

Whoops, maybe you can scoot my response over there too...

[Plenum]

All good Aion.

Thumbs up.

[Agua]

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[Sacred Fool]

Insofar as the content goes, the Ra Material does fall into line in some ways with the Mystery School tradition, but the presentational structure is much different.  The Mystery Schools were called such because instructors withheld much of their information from the general public so as to use it in novel ways as part of their initiations; whereas, so far as we know, L/L Research does not operate that way.  All the available information is made freely available and the reader is on her own as to what to make of it.

This is a crucial misunderstanding!

One aspect of „Mystery schools“ withholding information is that there exist quite a few powerful techniques that can be harmful for the unprepared and can also be harmful when not done correctly.

Well, I would say the misunderstanding is on your part, other-self, and that you are overreacting.  My statement is fair enough as it stands in that Ra and the Mystery Schools present their information differently--very differently, in fact.  It's making a simple point and not trying to comprehensively define "initiation."  But we can move there, if you wish.  I, too, find it an important topic.

„Spiritual information“ cannot be conveyed through words, and initiation does not happen on an intellectual level.
Initiation is not that you get a PDf with additional imformation that has been kept secret so far.
Initiation is a transmission of gnosis if you forgive my poor choice of words.

Agreed.

An „initiation“ as I experienced it and as it is intended to be in those circles is a very powerful experience, an experience definetely is beyond your former frame of reference, it is an experience that changes the way you view and approach the subject in question completely.

I'm not aware of what you experienced, but I agree the initiation experience, as I would describe it, involves transformational energy from beyond your frame of reference catalyzing a process which expands that frame of reference.  One could call it, in some sense, a growth spurt.  That is, a growth in conscious awareness.

Where we do not seem to agree is that I perceive this as sometimes happening slowly and sometimes entirely outside of a formally structured context.  This is because, in either case, the transformation occurs in response, not to formality, but to one's innate yearning for transformation.  The advantage of the formality is that, for many of us, this can help focalize our desire to seek, our desire to serve.


Ra offers an example in reference to Don Elkins.

106.12 Questioner: I’m going to come back to a couple of points here, but I have to get in a question here about myself. It’d seem to be critical at this point. Can Ra tell me what is physically wrong with me, and what’s causing it, and what I could do to alleviate it?

Ra: I am Ra. The questioner is one also in the midst of further initiation. During this space/time the possibility for mental/emotional distortion approaching that which causes the entity to become dysfunctional is markèd. Further, the yellow-ray, chemical vehicle of the questioner is aging and has more difficulty in the absorption of needed minerals such as iron and other substances such as papain, potassium, and calcium.

At the same time the body of yellow ray begins to have more difficulty eliminating trace elements such as aluminum. The energizing effect has occurred in the colon of the questioner and the distortions in that area are increasingly substantial. Lastly, there is a small area of infection in the mouth of the questioner which needs attention.

My interpretation of this is that Mr. Elkins was undergoing one big-ass spiritual growth spurt during the time of the Ra Contact, and that this could rightly be called an initiation, despite the lack of any formal iniatory structure.

Who's to say that Vasilisa's innate yearning for transformation was not focalized and responded to when she first read the Ra Material?  Formal structure is not the primary ingredient for spiritual transformation, is it?  Perhaps there's more Mystery to it than you may believe?
   

[Aion]

Aion,
no offense intended, but its starting to get out of the context I wrote my response in.
Peregrine originally wrote that „Mystery schools“ withhold information which they later share in initiation.
Whereas Ra, according to Peregrine, does not not withhold information.

My basic point was that initiation is BEYOND words, beyond intellectual information.

And I am fully aware that initiation does not exclusively happen through a human presence.
But, well, when we start to call everything an initiation it might be theoretically correct, but not in the context of what we or at least I talked about.
In that regard I would prefer to restrict „initiation“ especially in the context of initiation being done in Mystery Schools or the likes to a transmission of a direct experience as opposed to a concept that might vaguely point to this experience if you know what I mean.

Otherwise, and thats what I intended to convey in my response to Vasilia, we relativate and dilute the term „initiation“ into meaninglessness.

An „initiation“ as I experienced it and as it is intended to be in those circles is a very powerful experience, an experience definetely is beyond your former frame of reference, it is an experience that changes the way you view and approach the subject in question completely.
And this is definetely not a „mild experience“. If it is a „mild experience“ it simply wasnt an initiation.

Initiation previsely is meant to be that, enable you to experience something completely outside of your imagination, outside the current limitations of your consciousness.

We are probably in the same boat here, but I wanted to put my comment in the context that it originally was.

I brought it up specifically because others may not be as familiar with a particular way of viewing the concept of initiation. I also wanted to bring some context from the Ra Material to show that the concept as contained there fits a bit more with the broader definition rather than the narrower.

I'm not arguing at all with your definition of initiation being a profound experience and one beyond intellectual concepts, but it always seems odd to me when someone is quick to downplay someone else's experience as not being "profound enough".

[BrotherInWaiting]

Mr./Ms. Agua, I found your words on initiation straightforward and interesting. Thank you for sharing.

As defined, it is obvious the Ra material is not initiatory.

To the extent the Ra material is educational or illuminating, it shares this general nature with an initiatory process, without the intensity, risk or personalisation of teaching you are advocating for as a key feature of initiation.

Another layer to the misunderstandings may be that Ra also does not appear to share all it knows at all times, in keeping with the ‘Law of Confusion’ and ‘Law of Free Will’. This is again not the same as deliberately guarding sacred information for the protection of the initiate AND the community who will have to live with the initiate after their awakenin/study is over.

[Agua]

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[Sacred Fool]

Initiation in Mystery Schools:

Imitiation as done in the CONTEXT of Mystery Schools and the likes are not a sharing of intellectual information but a „transmission“ that goes beyond or in other words is beyond that level.
For that reason one cannot say that „they“ withhold imformation that they later share in imformation, but rather that in imitiation they convey or transmit „something“ that cannot possibly be conveyed through words.

That actually was my point.

If that's your experience and your belief, that's fine and I'm not trying to talk you out of it.
To give two examples of my own experience, for some years I went to regular energetic transmissions (which were called "initiations") that were given through a guy who worked with inner planes masters whom he said were associated with the Western mystery school tradition.  At these events he would also convey related conceptual information which was otherwise not shared (and also seldom of real importance).  Some years later I attended "classes" in an Eastern/Western mixed guru lineage during which there was no information given until a Q&A which followed the energetic transmissions.  These were not called "initiations," but were sort of similar to the transmissions that were called initiations.  Go figure.
The term "initiation" is flexible, in my view.  It can apply to such transmissions or to much larger changes in functional spiritual awareness.  Frankly, I think that process of moving from seeing the world through the eyes of the intellect to seeing it through the eyes of heart is one of the most significant spiritual phase changes any of us will experience, and if this is initiated in one way or another, with or without explicit information, is not important.
But, oops!  I guess I just crashed another train by transgressing the confines of discussing only the context of things calling themselves Western mystery schools.  Sorry.
   

[Vasilisa]

In case that was what you meant and you had initiation in one of those „circles“ I apologize.

Yes, with the appropriate ritual and ordination, in person in a Lodge that has official patents What I experienced from reading Ra (and then more than fivefold re-reading) is more like the quotes that Ayon added.

In the case of Ra, there was a very large amount of synchronicity, pressure on the unconscious and a very strong thirst for search, I could not consciously stop for a very long period of time. Which I can not say about the initiation in the Lodge. The echoes of initiation in the Lodge (7 years old) begin to reach me on a conscious level only now. Structuring, crystallizing and improving all the data obtained.

[Aion]

I definitely agree there is a difference between practice and theory. I have experienced initiation through the Western Mystery Tradition and agree with the notion of transmission as you describe it (which also appears basically the same in Eastern traditions).

I just see the flexibility of language and am fairly comfortable holding different meanings for a word in my mind, perhaps not everyone is like that.

More particularly was I wanted to point out that initiatory transmission and knowledge transmission while distinct elements may occur simultaneously.

[Vasilisa]

Otherwise, and thats what I intended to convey in my response to Vasilia, we relativate and dilute the term „initiation“ into meaninglessness.

My nickname sounds like Vasilisa-the heroine of Russian fairy tales . I think the whole misunderstanding is that I have two types of experience of what can be called "initiation"

[Vasilisa]

Who's to say that Vasilisa's innate yearning for transformation was not focalized and responded to when she first read the Ra Material?  Formal structure is not the primary ingredient for spiritual transformation, is it?  Perhaps there's more Mystery to it than you may believe?
   

It was like an unbearable call. Before I encountered the Ra Material. I even had to leave my job to try to figure out what was going on . Much later, I read about a similar condition in one of the works of Dion Fortune.

[Agua]

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[Vasilisa]

Again I apologize for getting you wrong and ranting based on wrong assumptions about your path!

There's nothing to apologize for, we're just talking here. Everyday, non-literary written language very poorly conveys the actual depth of human experiences. I remember that Ra also noted such difficulties in verbal communication

I have the opposite of your situation. I have to work very hard to develop and balance my intuitive non-verbal part of understanding the world. I have to read, think, talk, analyze, which was not typical for me at all.

[Dtris]

Well what is the purpose of initiation? Specifically the Western Mystery School kind?

IMO it is to use Drama and Ritual to imprint into the subconscious a type of arch typical experience which will facilitate growth in the specific direction of the mystery school. To be a "real" initiation there needs to be a source of energy, qi, or information that transmits this thru psychic imprint or sympathy. This can be a more advanced practitioner, a group of them, a discarnate entity, or even an egregor or akashic record. This is why there are self initiations into the Golden Dawn tradition possible.

One of the main issues with Mystery Schools, is that they suffer the same woes as any other human institution. The Golden Dawn dissolved due to squables, greed, and manipulation. Most of the groups that followed suffered the same fate. Ego driven individuals surround themselves with Sycophants and gullible individuals while providing nothing in return. Lastly hubris even among a group of otherwise amicable people can cause the ability to create a profound initiation to decay or not develop.

There are many people who attended the same meditation workshops with my teacher, but they were too caught up with being taught by a famous meditation master that they neglected to actually practice. These types of people abound and may offer to "initiate" someone now, when they never did the work to be able to initiate in the first place.

I think initiation is unable to be confined to a western mystery school concept. Doing so is too limiting. At the base level, initiation is an Experience. In a school or tradition those Experiences are formalized and supposed to be reproducible. In many cases the Initiation will be individual, and unique. Since everyone is on their own path, not everyone should experience the same thing in initiation. A good teacher will provide the experience the student needs.

[Aion]

As I often do, I just like to point out that the original Golden Dawn temple did not actually dissolve or vanish but went through a schism which resulted in the Alpha et Omega, continuing the lineage of the original GD, and the Stella Matutina which is a Christianized off-shoot headed by Dr. Gilbert.

Contrary to popular belief, the original Golden Dawn lineage does in fact continue to exist and is still active.

[Vasilisa]

In my perception, the restriction will arise one way or another, because we are talking in the context of the Materials of Ra and the work of Don Elkins, and not in the context of the work of Milarepa, or the lamas of the Kagyu school or Dzogchen (as one example). Yes, in the end, all schools lead to the same Source, but the path itself and its surrounding landscape are different. And this is only my opinion that in this forum it is more appropriate to stick to the surrounding landscape that Ra described. I'm not talking about the status Q'uo, because they are a little different, again in my personal perception.

It is necessary to understand who organized the Golden Dawn and in connection with what research. And also take into account the base of such research in the form of the Hebrew alphabet and everything that follows from the work of such personalities as Moses and Aaron. If we talk about such things very briefly.

[Aion]

There is an inevitable "wall" to the context of the Ra Material simply because it feels like the teachings were never exactly "completed", but I think that read with the right mindset that can inspire one to quest on to their own spiritual journey.

I agree that this forum is intended to be a pathway that works with the context of the Ra Material, since that is the root of this place, but that isn't to downplay the significance or validity of other traditions, or even suggested they shouldn't be discussed here, but that is the 'narrow band' nature of these materials.

[Vasilisa]

I do not underestimate the significance or importance of other traditions in any way, on the contrary, I am very actively engaged in the theory of other traditions, and every time I Express my gratitude for this opportunity thanks to modern technologies. What I meant was that in my humble experience, discussing different contexts creates some noise and sometimes makes it difficult to focus on something important, precisely in the context of this, albeit incomplete, philosophical doctrine.

[Black Dragon]

I have a lot of questions and distortions when it comes to the topic of mystery schools, and posted a long post here that didn't fit in 100% with the topic and trajectory of this discussion, so I moved it to my own thread([self-moderated split] Mystery Schools, STO Principles, and My Own Distortions). I would really appreciate it if members with a better knowledge and experience of mystery schools would address my concerns and share their perspectives with me, either on my thread on in PM.

[Sacred Fool]

Yeah, dude, I'd agree with you that you've drifted off the general pathway of thoughts in this instance.

In my experience, when you demand of someone, "Hey, prove to me that you're not a stinkin' butt-hole," you're unlikely to receive a welcoming or otherwise constructive response. Is your experience any different?

I would add this, organizations dedicated to experiencing the mysteries of being often are intended to serve those who show (internally) a deep desire to seek and to serve. Considering what that might smell like, feel like, taste like could be helpful to you in your bumptious searching.

[Black Dragon]

Yeah, dude, I'd agree with you that you've drifted off the general pathway of thoughts in this instance.

In my experience, when you demand of someone, "Hey, prove to me that you're not a stinkin' butt-hole," you're unlikely to receive a welcoming or otherwise constructive response.  Is your experience any different?

I would add this, organizations dedicated to experiencing the mysteries of being often are intended to serve those who show (internally) a deep desire to seek and to serve.  Considering what that might smell like, feel like, taste like could be helpful to you in your bumptious searching.

The irony and paradox is that no, my experience isn't any different. The "prove to me your not a stinkin' butthole" thing goes both ways, and from what I've seen, the "casting pearls before swine" attitude of mystery schools is just that,  demanding people prove to them they aren't swine before they will consider them worthy of anything. I'm not saying dump advanced knowledge and ritual magic in the hands of the uninitiated, I'm just asking to see them as more than swine and treating them with a little more respect(which is a two-way street) and humanitarianism-seeing them as equals, as the creator and working a bit more diligently on their behalf, rather than throwing them to the wolves.

With my own distortions, maybe I can't achieve a 100% perfect idea of what a "deep desire to serve" is, but the notion that I have not considered it, is dismissive and condescending, to say the least. That's the point I keep getting back to. Dismissiveness. Judgment. Condescension. Elitism. Holier than thou attitudes. Well, I know that a deep desire to serve other-selves has nothing to do with any of that. It doesn't smell like judgment. It doesn't taste like dismissiveness and aloofness. It doesn't sound like viewing the uninitiated, the distorted, and the imperfect masses of other-selves as "swine".

To me, a deep desire to serve sees other-selves as equals. It sees humanity as troubled, but inherently worthy. It sees the magical personality as the birthright of every sentient being, and not some award to be won or privilege to be earned through trials and tribulations and the approval of some authority outside the self. To me, a deep desire to serve isn't just a desire to serve the elect few, the initiated, but all of humanity. In fact, I don't even understand how those with a pure and strong desire to serve can still believe the in the notion of an "elect few".

Feel free to give a quick reply here, or a more thorough one in PM or to my new thread-I have realized that my posts in this thread are off-topic enough to probably warrant a split, and I'd rather self-regulate than have the mods be bothered with it. I am going to remove, copy, and transplant my large post to its own thread, and just leave a heads up that I did so. I do definitely want feedback, so any of the original posters here that would perhaps have the more firsthand perspective I'm looking for can hit me up with a PM, or post on my new thread.

[Sacred Fool]

With my own distortions, maybe I can't achieve a 100% perfect idea of what a "deep desire to serve" is, but the notion that I have not considered it, is dismissive and condescending, to say the least. That's the point I keep getting back to. Dismissiveness. Judgment. Condescension. Elitism. Holier than thou attitudes. 

*sigh*

I was trying to be of service by suggesting you aim your energies in what could be a fruitful direction, not suggesting you didn't understand the concept.  In my view, you can't have it both ways.  You can either concentrate your efforts to travel towards love or spin around and around in voluble circles of anger.  Your choice.

By the same token, it's maybe not entirely that simple.  If you're interested, here's the context of your pearls quotation.  That line emphasizes that mean people can do mean things to others, even when you offer them guidance and concern.  Go figure.

Chapter7 

[sup]1 [/sup]Judge not, that ye be not judged.

[sup]2 [/sup]For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

[sup]3 [/sup]And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

[sup]4 [/sup]Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

[sup]5 [/sup]Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

[sup]6 [/sup]Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

[sup]7 [/sup]Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

[sup]8 [/sup]For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

[sup]9 [/sup]Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

[sup]10 [/sup]Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

[sup]11 [/sup]If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

[sup]12 [/sup]Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Yes, it travels both ways...either in beauty or in pettiness.  It's your own choice.  And perhaps you can allow others to make their own choices without drenching them in your sense of distilled entitlement and fear?

If not, that's okay, too.  But, it seems to me that one of these makes the world a slightly better place while the other makes it slightly worse, regardless of who it is that's making these reflected choices at any given time. 
  

[Vasilisa]

I have a lot of questions and distortions when it comes to the topic of mystery schools, and posted a long post here that didn't fit in 100% with the topic and trajectory of this discussion, so I moved it to my own thread([self-moderated split] Mystery Schools, STO Principles, and My Own Distortions). I would really appreciate it if members with a better knowledge and experience of mystery schools would address my concerns and share their perspectives with me, either on my thread on in PM.

I usually suggest reading the definition of Ra from the first book, what he says about love. Then go to the Bible literature. It was no accident that Carla read the Bible as a daily offering. Then carefully read the philosophical writings. You can start with Socrates and end with Heidegger and Cassirer. Meditate on the ideas of the Logos in various schools of philosophy. Read Jung's correspondence with Pauli. You can list them for a very long time) If you work 5 to 16 hours a day every day, you will need about 12 years for everything. After this self-study, you can talk about Mystery Schools. And this is not condescending advice, but real work that I did for myself. Although I didn't really learn English)))

This approach may seem boring and tedious, but it helped me. Personally, no one invited me to the organization to which I applied. I found the Order website myself, wrote a request, passed a four-time interview, then a dedication, and then went down the list. Mystery schools may be different, but their internal structure and working principles are similar. Until you get inside, you won't know how it works for you personally. And even if you do, an untrained person very quickly becomes disillusioned with such organizations and leaves.

[Black Dragon]

I have a lot of questions and distortions when it comes to the topic of mystery schools, and posted a long post here that didn't fit in 100% with the topic and trajectory of this discussion, so I moved it to my own thread([self-moderated split] Mystery Schools, STO Principles, and My Own Distortions). I would really appreciate it if members with a better knowledge and experience of mystery schools would address my concerns and share their perspectives with me, either on my thread on in PM.

I usually suggest reading the definition of Ra from the first book, what he says about love. Then go to the Bible literature. It was no accident that Carla read the Bible as a daily offering. Then carefully read the philosophical writings. You can start with Socrates and end with Heidegger and Cassirer. Meditate on the ideas of the Logos in various schools of philosophy. Read Jung's correspondence with Pauli. You can list them for a very long time) If you work 5 to 16 hours a day every day, you will need about 12 years for everything. After this self-study, you can talk about Mystery Schools. And this is not condescending advice, but real work that I did for myself. Although I didn't really learn English)))

This approach may seem boring and tedious, but it helped me. Personally, no one invited me to the organization to which I applied. I found the Charter website myself, wrote a petition, passed a four-time interview, then a dedication, and then went down the list. Mystery schools may be different, but their internal structure and working principles are similar. Until you get inside, you won't know how it works for you personally. And even if you do, an untrained person very quickly becomes disillusioned with such organizations and leaves.

Good info, although the post that I transplanted though doesn't address so much about how one goes about joining, but calls into question the actual sincerity of the service to humanity of such organizations and their ethics, which seem to me a bit elitist, judgmental, and less than heart-centered.

[Vasilisa]

Good info, although the post that I transplanted though doesn't address so much about how one goes about joining, but calls into question the actual sincerity of the service to humanity of such organizations and their ethics, which seem to me a bit elitist, judgmental, and less than heart-centered.

I don't think I can say more than that, given our perception filters at this point in time. My response is not as cordial as Peregrine's, but it is sincere) Feelings are not always the best adviser, and sometimes they can create a separation between the entity and the Creator. Please also note that I write in a language that is not my native language

The word "School" itself implies learning. Adult education. Without indulging their feelings and weaknesses. Speaking generally, it turns out that training is the path to elitism) If you put a negative connotation in the word "Elite". There are Small and Great Mysteries. The Great Mysteries cannot be understood intellectually. This is what Agua wrote about.