Waking up "out of body"

[Bring4th_Austin]

True, Zenmaster, I guess what I was trying to say is that we have no reason to feel fear.

I agree, we have no necessity to fear. On the other hand, I'd also say we have no necessity to hope.

Hope removes us from the present, yes? There's no need to think "everything will okay." Everything IS as it is.

ok. then stop going to wc this instant. if everything as it is, just quit doing that. also, if everything is as it is at that given moment, stop right at that moment. even your breath should stop at the exact point you were inhaling/exhaling. because if you change ANYthing right from that moment in which everything 'is as it is', then it means everything was not 'okay' or 'as it is' at that given point in time.

I didn't say "everything is always okay." Everything is as it is. If you need to breathe in that moment, you obviously breathe. And it is.

Why do you think we should hope?

[unity100]

True, Zenmaster, I guess what I was trying to say is that we have no reason to feel fear.

I agree, we have no necessity to fear. On the other hand, I'd also say we have no necessity to hope.

Hope removes us from the present, yes? There's no need to think "everything will okay." Everything IS as it is.

ok. then stop going to wc this instant. if everything as it is, just quit doing that. also, if everything is as it is at that given moment, stop right at that moment. even your breath should stop at the exact point you were inhaling/exhaling. because if you change ANYthing right from that moment in which everything 'is as it is', then it means everything was not 'okay' or 'as it is' at that given point in time.

I didn't say "everything is always okay." Everything is as it is. If you need to breathe in that moment, you obviously breathe. And it is.

doesnt differ - if everything 'is as it is' then you shouldnt breathe. the moment you continue your breathing everything becomes not 'as it was' and if you keep continuing, you keep changing that everything and that everything becomes 'as it changes' than 'as it is'.

that makes 'present moment', 'as it is' propositions totally irrelevant.

the only moment everything becomes 'as it is' or 'present' etc, would be the point at which all change stops.

Why do you think we should hope?

im at a loss to understand the relevance of this question to the above concept.

[native]

Placing your will in the hands of hope denies the power of the creative energy that lies behind the use of the will. When you are waiting or hoping, you are no longer existing in the present, rather, you have forfeited your creative potential to something that has not yet happened. Hope feels slightly empty or has a small amount of insecurity attached to it, whereas faith feels abundant and is reassuring. One innately knows when their thoughts exist in hope, because there is a lingering amount of doubt in the back of the mind that can't be done away with.

Faith seems to be the quality of the mind where the application of the will manifests from. It is different from hope in that it doesn't place your thoughts solely in the future, but rather it has a carrying quality to it. Faith therefore carries you in the present towards your inner manifestations.

The more ingrained you become in the present, the more your environment changes. A simple illustration of this is acceptance of the self. The more you learn of and accept yourself, the more your perception shifts and moves into another state of consciousness. This is the movement through the sub-densities of experience that Ra talks about. You can retrace and re-experience this movement when you reflect on your development from childhood to adulthood. I've noticed that changes in myself manifested changes in how others perceive me. Or is that really what is happening? It seems that you are simply becoming detached from what others think and you no longer 'feel' the societal pull of the social mind. The more you embrace yourself, the more you will improve the quality of your being and the environment around you. This can only be done by acknowledging what is available in the present.

[Ruth]

I hope I sleep tonight. But if I don't I'll be in the moment, whatever the moment brings.
Light and love, y'all.

[zenmaster]

True, Zenmaster, I guess what I was trying to say is that we have no reason to feel fear.

I agree, we have no necessity to fear. On the other hand, I'd also say we have no necessity to hope.

Hope removes us from the present, yes? There's no need to think "everything will okay." Everything IS as it is.

Is fear/hope related to a blocked/overactive red ray? Red ray balance is something that escapes me.

It's generally related to something ego related. Red ray tends to be related to a much more basic grounding or foundation,

---

True, Zenmaster, I guess what I was trying to say is that we have no reason to feel fear.

I agree, we have no necessity to fear. On the other hand, I'd also say we have no necessity to hope.

Hope removes us from the present, yes? There's no need to think "everything will okay." Everything IS as it is.

Is fear/hope related to a blocked/overactive red ray? Red ray balance is something that escapes me.

Hope does remove us from the present. It moves us towards something unreal. Something fake and desirable. Look at all those who continue to try to create that hope. It fades away.

As far as thinking "everything will okay". That's up to the individual.

[Cassandra11]

I leave my body frequently. I go meet up with a group of people, some are friends in this illusion. We meet in a place that looks somewhat like a busy subway station - at least that's the nearest description I can give. Funny, just trying to type this I can feel myself going there and it makes it very difficult to work my fingers on the keyboard. Anyway, we're meeting up to go do "work" somewhere. We get in these tube things to travel to our destiination. Kind of like an elevator, kind of like those tubes you see at a bank where you open the little door, put your documents in it, then put it back in the holder and push the button so they are moved by vacuum to the teller. Know what I mean? Occasionally, if I'm gone a "long" time I have to go back and check on my body/vehicle to make sure it is comfortable. I've only ever told one other person about this experience, and then only because when I happened to see her the next day after one of these experiences she commented to me, "wow, did we meet up last night or what?" I was stunned to say the least, but when we compared notes, our experiences were very similar and we agreed that we'd done this together many times.
Cassandra11 - I've had a similar experience where I knew that a negative entity was trying to frighten me. It was a scary lizard figure, very dark, and he brought some other little creatures with him. It was the little ones trying to pull me away. I just looked at him and said NO!!!!! Go away! He looked very surprised, and then they all just vanished and I've never had that experience again. Good for you for sticking up for yourself. They can't harm us without our permission, which they elicit from us with fear. We need not fear, we are protected, we just have to accept the protection.
Love and light!

What an amazing experience thank you for sharing
The female entity I saw was also surprised when she saw that I was no longer scared. Since that day I haven't felt that kind of greetings/presence. I guess she was there for a period of time and her presence disturbed me at night specially when I meditate. Good to know that I had a reason to feel uncomfortable and that I managed to get rid of it. I am grateful for the experience.

[AnthroHeart]

If you can be congruent with yourself, so you are with the universe. 'faith' is not really the word, because it implies something extra. You experience cooperation and what is essential, basically to the extent you allow. Having even a small taste of 'oneness' seems to always reveal the balance or imbalance of a situation - there is no hiding.

So Zen, feelings of urgency or anticipation can take one out of the now/oneness, right? At the very least I feel my energy shift out of acceptance when I get these feelings.

[zenmaster]

If you can be congruent with yourself, so you are with the universe. 'faith' is not really the word, because it implies something extra. You experience cooperation and what is essential, basically to the extent you allow. Having even a small taste of 'oneness' seems to always reveal the balance or imbalance of a situation - there is no hiding.

So Zen, feelings of urgency or anticipation can take one out of the now/oneness, right? At the very least I feel my energy shift out of acceptance when I get these feelings.

Not only do you feel your energy shift out of acceptance, you will also find that it is almost impossible to learn anything in that state as you will not be open or curious. Same thing with the fear state or fear-based ideas.

Urgency and anticipation is as much of an avoidance as fear. It's what binds us here in suffering - that which we like (think we like) and that which we don't like (don't think we like). Catalyst comes in, that is ignored. More catalyst comes in, that is ignored. Slowly it reaches this emotional level, where we can see it in operation as this type of displacement. It often manifests as acceptable idea (based on personal or collective distortions) which carries the associated charge. Completely unnecessary and kind of lacks dignity due to shift away from honesty.

The central idea here is to make things more conscious, not avoid. That in itself leads to now/oneness.

[Bring4th_Austin]

I agree, we have no necessity to fear. On the other hand, I'd also say we have no necessity to hope.

Hope removes us from the present, yes? There's no need to think "everything will okay." Everything IS as it is.

ok. then stop going to wc this instant. if everything as it is, just quit doing that. also, if everything is as it is at that given moment, stop right at that moment. even your breath should stop at the exact point you were inhaling/exhaling. because if you change ANYthing right from that moment in which everything 'is as it is', then it means everything was not 'okay' or 'as it is' at that given point in time.

I didn't say "everything is always okay." Everything is as it is. If you need to breathe in that moment, you obviously breathe. And it is.

doesnt differ - if everything 'is as it is' then you shouldnt breathe.

That's just a silly thing to say. The present moment offers you the opportunity to breathe, there's no reason to remove yourself from the present to breathe. The present isn't static. Living in the present doesn't mean staying stuck in a moment in time. Using your water closet example (I hope that's what you meant by WC, USA and all..), you need to use the bathroom...that's a present moment urge, so you use the present moment to use the bathroom. Relieving yourself is not removing yourself from the present moment.

the moment you continue your breathing everything becomes not 'as it was' and if you keep continuing, you keep changing that everything and that everything becomes 'as it changes' than 'as it is'.

I didn't say "everything is as it was." Of course nothing is "as it was." What it IS a moment ago is no longer what it IS now.

that makes 'present moment', 'as it is' propositions totally irrelevant.

Yeah, if for some reason you think "everything is as it is" means "the present moment never changes/should never change." I don't see how you make that conclusion. It's rather silly in my eyes.

Why do you think we should hope?

im at a loss to understand the relevance of this question to the above concept.

Because it was related in the original context of my statement which you wished to debate. Hope removes us from the present moment, and you're contesting the idea that we should not be removed from the present moment.

[unity100]

Hope removes us from the present, yes? There's no need to think "everything will okay." Everything IS as it is.

ok. then stop going to wc this instant. if everything as it is, just quit doing that. also, if everything is as it is at that given moment, stop right at that moment. even your breath should stop at the exact point you were inhaling/exhaling. because if you change ANYthing right from that moment in which everything 'is as it is', then it means everything was not 'okay' or 'as it is' at that given point in time.

I didn't say "everything is always okay." Everything is as it is. If you need to breathe in that moment, you obviously breathe. And it is.

doesnt differ - if everything 'is as it is' then you shouldnt breathe.

That's just a silly thing to say. The present moment offers you the opportunity to breathe, there's no reason to remove yourself from the present to breathe. The present isn't static. Living in the present doesn't mean staying stuck in a moment in time. Using your water closet example (I hope that's what you meant by WC, USA and all..), you need to use the bathroom...that's a present moment urge, so you use the present moment to use the bathroom. Relieving yourself is not removing yourself from the present moment.

rephrasing it in eloquent manner like 'offering opportunity to' does not change the fact that the moment you change the present moment, it is not the present moment anymore. if the present moment is 'as it is', it wouldnt have changed.

if you define 'relieving yourself is not removing yourself from the PRESENT moment', then you define not the PRESENT moment. because what you called 'present' just moments ago, had changed with your every act in between then and this.

if you go that way, the 'present' you talk about becomes totally something vague like 'carpe diem'. with no relevance to the present that is being talked about in conjunction with 7d and above.

the moment you continue your breathing everything becomes not 'as it was' and if you keep continuing, you keep changing that everything and that everything becomes 'as it changes' than 'as it is'.

I didn't say "everything is as it was." Of course nothing is "as it was." What it IS a moment ago is no longer what it IS now.

then everything had infinitely changed from the moment ago until now. then there is no 'present' there. there is change.

that makes 'present moment', 'as it is' propositions totally irrelevant.

Yeah, if for some reason you think "everything is as it is" means "the present moment never changes/should never change." I don't see how you make that conclusion.

if you dont see how i made that conclusion, then maybe you shouldnt be making grand definitions and deductions about what you call 'present' ? for the deduction of the above is straightforward, when you look at the definition of present in regard to 7d that is being given in the material we study. timelessness, 'eternal present' etc, only happens when all the parallel developments of every entity merge from late 6d and on, and start merging with all it can be across all its parallel existences, all kinds of other manifestations and possibilities, ALL the potential states it HAS had in all those infinite parallels, as what we term the TOTALITY. not only one entity's totality either - all entities' totalities merging with other entities' totalities and all the totalities of all social memory complexes merging with every other totality that can be out there, which is in the end leading up to merging as the 'one' singular sun into intelligent infinity one more time.

that means, the 'present' you talk about can only happen near that event horizon - near intelligent infinity, when EVERYTHING that can happen in all universes and parallel realities have happened and merged.

anything under that, there are infinite amount of things happening. so, there can be no 'present'.

............

no other referral to a real state of 'everlasting present' has been used in the material other than when referring to the state of totalities in 7d and on. 'the totality of the entity can be seen in its eternal dance of the present'.

so, a 'present' does not exist in 3d. and, instead, 'past and future' exists, as Ra told about 3d.

Because it was related in the original context of my statement which you wished to debate. Hope removes us from the present moment, and you're contesting the idea that we should not be removed from the present moment.

then let me simply put it :

hope is desiring towards the next change that will make you come closer to infinity. that hope/desire will attract the next state of change which will make you come closer to the ever present you are talking about. and only through infinite desiring and experiencing you can come close to that present you are mentioning here.

there is nothing that can remove you from 'the present moment', because you are not there. you are, as a finite entity, just a part of that infinite present state you are trying to bring into this 3d time point, just like how Ra mentions that they are just but a tiny fragment, spark of infinite creator, regardless of how repetitively they mention how infinite the entities are.

[Ruth]

So, about waking up out of body. . .

When I was 16 years old my Mom had an accident and was rushed to the hospital. She'd required some surgery and we were not allowed to see her at all that night. But I was the eldest child, and my Mom and I were very close . She had a debilitating illness, and I was one of her predominant caregivers, plus, we were just really good friends. Often when she was suffering, she said it gave her comfort and eased her pain if I would just sit near her and touch her arm or leg. Just lay my hands on her with love.

So, knowing that she was suffering, I went to bed sending her love and light and saying prayers for her comfort. During my sleep I "awoke" to find myself hovering near the ceiling in my bedroom, looking down on my sleeping body. I don't remember quite how I understood that I was out of my body for the purpose of visiting my Mom. I remember vividly "flying" over the town to her hospital room - I didn't fly over the roads I would have driven, but over the rooftops, "as the crow flies". As I drew near the hospital, I could see the window of her room sort of glowing with her energy. I don't know how I knew this, but I did.

I came near her bed and just put my hands on the crown of her head and just sent her my love. She woke up and asked me for some water, but there was nothing but ice in her room. When I told her this she said, "oh, right. I've had surgery and they don't want me to have anything to drink until I wake up. Would you please just put some ice chips on my lips? And if you have some lip balm, use that, too. My mouth and lips are so dry!"

So I held some ice chips up to her lips, and found some lip balm somewhere (I have no idea where it appeared from) and put it on her lips. I don't remember leaving her, but did wake up in my body in my room the next morning. When I was finally able to see her that afternoon, she thanked me for visiting her the night before. I was too stunned to tell her the real story. In fact, I didn't tell her for at least another 20 years.

But that dream/experience is still so real to me, more like a memory really than a dream.

[native]

that means, the 'present' you talk about can only happen near that event horizon - near intelligent infinity, when EVERYTHING that can happen in all universes and parallel realities have happened and merged.

anything under that, there are infinite amount of things happening. so, there can be no 'present'.

I don't see anyone speaking about the eternal present here. We're talking about finity. Finity is the present moment, whereas the experience of infinity is the eternal present and all finites can be known.

The greater teaching is that the present moment experience (finity) is not entirely 'less than' the eternal present (infinity) because they are a part of each other. Infinity is made up of finites, and finity allows infinity to exist. You are either experiencing an infinite state of awareness, or you are experiencing a part of it. In meditation you experience a heightened state of being as you embrace the present which is a part of infinity, because you enter into a type of reciprocal realm of acknowledgement with infinity. So infinity seems to flow through you. Even in normal waking reality you can have surreal experiences just by focusing on the moment. I have had moments of clarity related to the present moment and it is always accompanied by a state of bliss and a displacement in time where you feel a greater eternal awareness. That is contact with intelligent infinity, which I know you'll disagree with. So if the present is directly a part of infinity, anything is possible.

65.12 - This vortex may be very small, but to turn one’s back upon it is to forget the infinite possibilities of the present moment.

In the above, Ra is clearly stating that we exist in the present. We have a 'past' and a 'future' because third density exists as a cycle of completion as the octave does. It seems to be a unique density because of the choice, and the infinite possibilities of reality creation. The higher densities can look into third density because they exist outside of the illusion of choice. In the higher densities you either exist in the positive or negative continuum, or at a point where polarity unifies. This variability trait of third density is what is referred to as 'past' and 'future' involving possibility/probability outcomes and the realities that they create.

As I understand it, in the higher densities you have your incarnational experiences themselves for the purpose of learning, but there is no 'past' or 'future' because you exist outside of the realm of choice, and you are always moving forward in your present moment experience. So there is no reality creation in the higher densities as much as it is simply a path of learning and refinement. Again, third density is variable and unpredictable because of the freedom of choice, hence an infinite realm of 'past' and 'future' probabilities, but everything always hinges on the present as stated above in 65.12. Learning and interaction in the higher densities 'remains graven in the present', because it is constant refinement of the choice..there is no movement in another direction other than the potential of switching from negative to positive. You may lose polarity because of mistakes, but you are always moving forward in the present. As I've said in other threads using Ra's own quotes, once you make the choice you step through the gate to the present. Ra uses those words because the choice involves leaving the illusion where you have the potential to be swayed in either direction, and you move into a density where the choice begins to be refined, i.e. a path of learning engraved solely in a more refined present awareness. The higher densities aren't illusory.

Irregardless, even in third density there is only the now because of finite experience. Manyness. The present moment, call it what you will. Within the illusion of third density, at any moment you can make the choice and leave the illusion at the time of harvest. One of the central philosophical messages from Ra was there there is only the now, and at any moment we can choose our direction. Hope does nothing because it places your intention outside of the present. You aren't creating anything with hope, rather you are waiting for something to happen but it never will.

---

So I held some ice chips up to her lips, and found some lip balm somewhere (I have no idea where it appeared from) and put it on her lips. I don't remember leaving her, but did wake up in my body in my room the next morning. When I was finally able to see her that afternoon, she thanked me for visiting her the night before. I was too stunned to tell her the real story. In fact, I didn't tell her for at least another 20 years.

Very cool. So what did she say?

[zenmaster]

You aren't creating anything with hope, rather you are waiting for something to happen but it never will.

It never will because that something can never be real, as it's a false projection away from the present. It's essentially someone's emotional motivational construct that is put in place when inspiration and faith are insufficient to fulfill desire. Or to put it another way, it tends to occur when some fear-based opposing construct in one's unconscious needs balancing. That's the way the unconscious works, it still attempts to provide guidance based on what we are capable of accepting (what has been made conscious so far).

[native]

Yes, I see hope as lacking the use of the will. Concentration on the will, or faith which is essentially the same thing, is to exist in the present while working towards what you wish to create.

[zenmaster]

Yes, I see hope as lacking the use of the will. Concentration on the will, or faith which is essentially the same thing, is to exist in the present while working towards what you wish to create.

In other words inspiration may be utilized without the idea-based projection of hope.
One can see how we do the opposite with fear - for example divorcing an 'ego' construct (rejected shadow aspects of personal unconscious) from self.

We either desire to bring things closer to consciousness or to create more distance. In both cases, and there will be an emotional charge, what we desire is false and transitory - a blockage to avoid confrontation with self (something still unconscious or unaccepted).

These projections are not moving us away from the present, it's our attachment to them. By attachment, I mean relative importance with regard to other aspects of self lacks balance.

[native]

So there must always be acknowledgement of what is true to exist in and work with the present. Many seekers like to project their idealistic visions in attempting to create while ignoring truths of certain situations. Well-intentioned, but not honest. These attachments to ideas as you say, weakens the strength of the will because it does not acknowledge what is in the present. When you tell people this, they think you're raining on their positive thinking reality creation parade. The adept is always working from a base of honesty, acknowledging the truth of the situation rather than solely projecting some biased desire. It's not until you've balanced yourself that the will is most effective. What is desirable becomes less personal and you begin focusing on what is necessary instead.

[zenmaster]

What is desirable becomes less personal and you begin focusing on what is necessary instead.

As we become more conscious, we become more familiar with what we thought was only personal. In so doing, there is less unconscious attraction (psychological identification) behind our motivations. We begin to take responsibility for ourselves (and others) as we individuate - that is doing what is necessary.

[native]

That's what I was intending to say. Your clarity is always helpful.

[zenmaster]

That's what I was intending to say. Your clarity is always helpful.

Not intending to clarify so much as to show yet another point of view on a general subject that seems to be foreign to many people. There tends to be many ways to say the same thing, or at least point toward it, when that thing is fundamental or more primary to our sensibilities. Any one way may be lost. For example, the 'simple' idea of space/time or time/space in Alexander's 'Space, Time, and Deity' (and later in Larson's theoretical approach), or the so-called 'mind-body' problem. We tend to require simple ideas to be rehashed to some suitable from, in order to connect or make them approachable.

[native]

I'm just always fascinated how Jung's ideas explain in a different language that which I've only known as Eastern concepts. It shows how an honest approach and contemplation reveals the same knowledge because it is who we are. I agree. If one understands the mind, these explanations translate naturally.

[zenmaster]

I'm just always fascinated how Jung's ideas explain in a different language that which I've only known as Eastern concepts. It shows how an honest approach and contemplation reveals the same knowledge because it is who we are. I agree. If one understands the mind, these explanations translate naturally.

That's what fascinated me with the Ra Material. Principles work on the neumonal level, but we translate them using various terminology to the phenomenal level at which point the essence it often lost. But if we talk about it enough, and experience what we are talking about, we will eventually get the gist.

The telepathic communication - for example in an intersubjective experience of mind, just presents the idea itself - fully formed. The communicated concept sort of emerges into your consciousness based on your own experience (as it must in order to find expression). So you're instantly on the 'same page' as the other/group it were.

[native]

The fact that the material just makes sense certainly was the strongest affirmation for me. Nothing had to be grasped..it was just understood. I've always found it peculiar that the concept of naming was odd for Ra. It seems that with telepathy, all that is needed is your own thought/feeling of a person which is then understood/felt by the other in their own way.

[zenmaster]

It seems that with telepathy, all that is needed is your own thought/feeling of a person which is then understood/felt by the other in their own way.

It's your mind's thought/feeling both of and with another 'mind', where that mind can be of/with another person, of/with a group, of/with the 'racial mind' which is basically the earth repository itself. Sort of makes these comparisons of what seem to many to be harbingers of 4D, such as between a social memory complex and internet 'social networks', for example, as naive as comparing the experience of reading a virgin's sex manual with the experience of actual sex.

[native]

Yeah..the idea that social networks allow each other to be more aware of other's thoughts sort of points to the idea of a social memory complex, but it still lacks in emphasis of the more important aspects. The more intimate and open with each other people become - expressing themselves and relating on a more personal level - will seem to signify that the first steps have been taken.

At least that's how I see it, because we've discussed before how telepathy seems to involve subconscious recognition of like-mindedness. There seems to be information communicated that doesn't need to be spoken, because you're already on the same page. So a social memory complex will naturally be composed of individuals that are relatively similar in their thoughts/intentions, and the first steps in telepathy would seem to require a relative harmonization of thoughts/intentions. So we move more towards a reality where everyone understands each other without the necessity to express ourselves in detail, and the faculties of the mind which allow telepathy to occur, begin to flourish. Another way to say it is that it's not so much that people are perceiving another's own personal thoughts so to speak, but everyone begins perceiving a more unified and unveiled consciousness. So everyone naturally 'understands' or 'hears' the creator within as they move closer to that type of consciousness. It probably is simply a function of the veil, so I guess I'm just philosophizing.