03-24-2010, 03:15 PM
RE: Veggies by Force...
Well, Monica, with our last couple of posts I believe we have smashed this particular Pandora's box wide open! Since it is out in the open now, rather than just let it be, I've decided I will continue to share my thoughts openly and honestly, in the sincere hope that what I have to say may increase harmony and mutual understanding. I realize there is a high probability that some of my views on vegetarianism will be taken as arrogant and divisive, but I can only appeal to the Higher Selves of everyone in this wonderful forum to accept that this is not my intent and let the spirit of compassion and mutual understanding reign. I do not intend to be judgemental or dishonor the choices of others, and if anything that follows comes across that way then I apologize in advance and echo Monica's call for understanding and forgiveness. I will do my very best to respect others, but at the same time I will not dishonor myself and continue to censor my thoughts so harshly.
I reflected on your comments for a long time and re-read my own several times and realized just how fearful I have become when talking about this subject. I am always walking on eggshells about something that is so very close to my heart, even in a group of loving and spiritually-minded individuals such as this one. In truth, I have been dealing with this burden for a long time and I cannot tell you how empowering it is simply to know that I am not alone in that struggle. To find other-selves out there with the same tumultuous thoughts and passions somehow makes it easier to bear. Thank you for your emboldening and inspiring words.
I just learned about the Jungian typology myself while reading Peregrinus's Unfeeling thread. There was a link posted to a Myers-Briggs personality test:
http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes2.asp
where I found out I was INFJ. It's oddly listed as less than 1% of the population but my wife (a Cancer) and sister (a Pisces) came back as INFJ from this test as well so it can't be THAT rare. To be perfectly frank though, astrology has always resonated with me more than psychology, but I found this to be an interesting corner of the field to explore. Anyway, I'm still thinking about this concept on the back burner -- I haven't yet made up my mind on it.
Good question. Please consider this part a response also to your post #50 in the "In regards to eating meat" thread and for others reading a direct response from one vegetarian to another, in an effort to increase our own compassion and understanding, not an attempt to make others feel bad about their choices.
Now, if I remove all the sugar coating, the question really becomes, why on earth should we give more tolerance and respect to meat eaters for their choice than we do to people who perform other acts we perceive as equally despicable, such as child rapists? How can we NOT feel justified, once we become aware of the enormous suffering of the animals, to forcefully, vehemently defend them and shine the cold light of day upon the very ugly realities that encompass a meat eating lifestyle in the modern age?
Why, when all we are doing is trying to minimize suffering and the unnecessary taking of life, should we walk eggshells with everyone, especially when, in our minds, this issue is so simple, obvious and "cut and dried"? Why, indeed?!?!?!
I have 3 basic reasons: Practicality, inspiration, and Humility.
1) Practicality
To answer this question, I believe that we must ask ourselves what exactly our true goals are. Do we wish to start a fight? Get on a soapbox or high horse? Make others feel bad? Sow the seeds of division in our HUMAN family? Or is that what we really want is for animal suffering to end? It's the latter of course! What I have found through trial and error is that if I do NOT walk eggshells with meat eaters, if I am overly forceful in explaining my vegetarian perspective, that it causes people to shut down. They feel anger and guilt and their heart chakra closes up tightly. At that point, they have hardened their hearts and are deaf to anything I may have to say, no matter how heartfelt or insightful, on the subject. The net result of this is that I have incited divisive feelings of separation, an "us and them" mentality, caused an other-self to feel guilt and anger and lower their consciousness level, and all this without actually doing anything to help the other person focus on the issues of animal suffering in the first place! It's not that I feel that we should have to tread lightly in a grand sense, it's that from a practical standpoint, we get nowhere by being confrontational in any way.
Even a mild discussion of meat eating versus vegetarianism tends to elicit very strong defensive reactions in many, many people, spiritual or otherwise. I, too, have had several experiences where I just asked for the vegetarian menu in a restaurant or made a simple request to leave the meat off of my pasta that sparked a defensive reaction in someone else at the table. These reactions, which I did not in any way solicit intentionally, range from people poking fun at my dietary choice to making guilty statements like "I only eat chicken occasionally" or "I need the protein" or some other excuse.
I know how arrogant this may sound to a non-vegetarian, but my personal theory is that most people are aware of the cruelty inherent in a meat-centered diet on an unconscious level, but they choose not to think about it. Most people seem to look at meat as little circles and squares of food and nothing else. It's "pork and beef", not "cows and pigs". Or how about the fact that many are horrified at the very concept of eating a dog or horse but will happily devour a burger. I really think most people push it out of their conscious mind and choose not to see what is on their plate for what it really is. I seriously doubt the average meat eater thinks to themselves "I'm responsible for the suffering and slaughter of thousands of sentient beings by my food choices."
When confronted with a vegetarian who is on that path for ethical reasons, I believe it forces people to think about things they would rather not. You're shining a light on a very dark corner of their minds and the instant reaction is an internal revulsion that manifests as guilt, anger, and defensiveness. When a person is in that mode, they are pulled by their very emotions into a lower state of vibration, and are simply not receptive to "seeing the light". And because we feel so strongly on the topic, it is all too easy for us to get self-righteous in our condemnation of the practice. Remember they are likely perceiving this as a personal attack as we are discussing something very fundamental and intimate to day to day existence.
Though I agree with the basic premise about fur, I don't really think the people who throw fake blood on people wearing fur coats are really helping to raise awareness in a constructive fashion. We just don't get very far by telling strangers in a restaurant what they are doing is cruel, true as it might be.
To me, what we have here is a situation where we simply MUST be more gentle when approaching the topic with meat eaters if we want to have any hope whatsoever of spreading the word about animal suffering. Once I shifted my attitude and approach to meat eaters by being intentionally non-judgemental and extra understanding, I began to see that I had a greater impact on people in raising awareness of animal suffering. Like I mentioned before, a good common ground has been to suggest that we first must change the horrifying conditions of animals raised for meat production as a major environmental and humanitarian priority. I mean, though I personally reject outright the slaughter of animals for food no matter how you do it, I would at least prefer that it be done in a more humane fashion, such as the methods that Lorna described in the other thread.
I have yet to meet a meat eater who disagreed that factory farming has to change when the subject was broached in a loving fashion.
2) Inspiration
I believe that a step toward the light is simultaneously a step away from the darkness. If you walk toward the east, you walk away from the west, to put it another way.
We don't have to point out others' faults -- we can instead provide an example of spiritual living where vegetarianism is a natural part. Like it or not, we vegetarians are ambassadors of a way of living and people will draw conclusions on our choices based on the way that we behave. I would much rather concentrate on being a loving being, spreading kindness and compassion wherever I can than making people feel guilty about things that they are doing that are wrong. When people see you behaving in this kind, loving and humble fashion, they are more likely to want to know more about your reasons for choosing a vegetarian path. That opens the door to loving, constructive dialogue where you can make great progress and raise awareness. I have seen the impact of my new, gentler approach in my friends and cowokers and it is a beautiful sight to see their hearts expand, even if they don't embrace vegetarianism completely. Whenever asked, I try to tell people that being vegetarian does not make me spiritual. Being spiritual is what made me become vegetarian. There is a subtle, but important difference. Overall, what I am struggling to say is that I would rather lead by letting my own light shine than by pointing out the darkness in others.
3) Humility
I have come to terms with the fact that I will never reconcile spiritual people who are meat eaters, and must acknowledge that several otherwise wonderful people exist. Carla, Dalai Lama, etc. Even Ra actually suggested to Carla to eat meat! So, I have to allow for the possibility that I am wrong. I will not choose a different path for myself,but I can at least be respectful of others and who knows, maybe I am being an extremist after all. If this choice is wrong, then I don't want to be right, but I won't be so arrogant as to ignore the possibility that I'm looking at this from a lower perspective than I should.
One thing that has helped me to is to focus on stopping the suffering and torture rather than the death (though both bother me). To try to be more compassionate and separate meat eating itself from the conditions the animals are held under, I meditate on the Native Americans, participating in the great dance of life. Taking what they needed to live, both plants and animals, but always doing so with gratitude and respect. Since I have the option not to do so, I do not eat meat, but ultimately is what they were doing wrong? Did you see the movie Avatar? There is a scene in it where Jake shoots a hexapede with an arrow. He then walks over to it and finishes the kill while he prays: "I see you, brother, and thank you. Your spirit goes with Eywa (God), your body stays behind to become part of the people." Despite the harsh moment, I found this to be very beautiful in some way.
Another thing is that there is a consciousness in plants and I am not completely convinced that I never cause suffering by eating plants. I try to minimize the suffering I inflict on this earth and overall try to tread lightly on the earth plane, but I don't lose site of the possibility of hypocrisy.
You know, I am working on correcting a wide range of problems and improving myself in many ways that have nothing to do with diet. I am trying to remain humble as I wander through this life and sometimes talking about meat eating has made me feel superior and arrogant. I do not believe I am any better than anyone else and I truly wish to focus on unity, common ground, and harmony in my interactions with other human beings.
So, there you have it. THESE are the real reasons why I think we should be careful about how we discuss this topic, not because the other side is right in any way. I hope to explain my perspective rather than justify it.
Oh my goodness, what a terrible situation for her to be in! This is great catalyst for her soul growth, but I would not want to be forced into that environment in a million years. Please don't take this the wrong way, but given that grocery store positions are relatively low on the economic scale and competitors are prevalent in the US, I would suggest that she try to get a job at another store where she can work in a section that does not involve the execution of lobsters. That is horrifying to have to push the button day after day!! And I know exactly what she means about the meat department. There comes a point in your vegetarian path where you realize the terrible macabre sight of meat piled on a table. You one day recognize it for what it truly is and it is deeply disturbing. I try not to even look in that direction when I am in the grocery store.
I hate to share an ugly experience with you, but I too know well the scream of a lobster in pain. I was scuba diving in Florida some years ago, and had just gotten back onto the boat, warm and flushed with the glow of the joy of the ocean. I feel such oneness when I swim among the fishes and corals -- being surrounded by the Creator's beauty under the waves is a truly sublime and spiritual experience. Well, apparently one of the other divers had been catching lobster and before I realized what was happening, he actually RIPPED the claws and legs off of the lobster, laughed, and threw it in a cooler. The lobster was shrieking, mad with pain, and thrashing around wildly. It was so brutal, so shocking, and so cruel. I was just stunned, and all I could think to say was "Why don't you just kill it?" The answer was something to the effect that they taste better if they are alive when you boil them. I'm ashamed to admit to you that I held my tongue that day, saying nothing more to this man. I should have spoken up, but I didn't. I just walked to the end of the boat, looked towards the horizon and wept silently as I listened to the lobster shriek. Upset as I was, you can bet I was feeling pretty unkind thoughts at the time, dropping my vibrations in spite of myself.
I honestly don't think I could bear that sound with any regularity. I pray your friend be granted the courage to deal with it.
Yes, I think they do. If you feel guilty about something that is not from external programming, then it can be a great catalyst to correct actions that are hurting you. I just feel it is not my place to stimulate that guilt in others. They will need to confront it, or pretend they don't have any guilt, as they see fit, but it is not my right to make them see it.
This thread has been very healing for me and you have inspired me to say far more than I normally would have and also to challenge my assumptions about how much I should normally say. What I wrote above came from the heart, but I wouldn't normally share it in front of meat eaters like this. But this forum is a special place, and if there ever was a place to be "real", it is here. As long as we are compassionate and respectful in the way we talk about this, we have every right to our views, even if they make others uncomfortable. Thank you for helping me to see that.
I agree completely. This is a great exercise!! Just to clarify, I believe you're not asking meat eaters to accept that human children suffering and animal suffering are of equal importance. I believe you are asking them to hypothetically imagine how they would feel about the issue if it was human kids instead of cows being tortured and killed. Then, recognize that to a vegetarian there is no real difference in these scenarios even if they personally do not equate the two in importance. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but that's the way I received it. This could be a key to compassion and understanding for a meat eater. THIS is why we're so darned passionate about it! Overzealous we may be, but thinking of it in terms of human children might help them understand where we are coming from.
In closing, I would like only to re-iterate that I meant no disrespect whatsoever by my posts and am striving to be nonjudgemental and compassionate with those who do not agree with me. I ask for the forgiveness of anyone I have offended by my position. Monica mentioned in a previous post that perhaps we should have had this conversation in a PM because in many ways our comments were directed to eachother, those of like mind with a similar struggle. And perhaps that is true, but I am not ashamed of my views. Just like the difficult pornography thread, I cannot help but feel that on our collective journey to oneness these innermost thoughts and heartfelt perspectives shared by loving people striving for understanding and growth will be helpful to others as well.
Again, let mutual understanding and compassion reign in our hearts!!
Love to all
Well, Monica, with our last couple of posts I believe we have smashed this particular Pandora's box wide open! Since it is out in the open now, rather than just let it be, I've decided I will continue to share my thoughts openly and honestly, in the sincere hope that what I have to say may increase harmony and mutual understanding. I realize there is a high probability that some of my views on vegetarianism will be taken as arrogant and divisive, but I can only appeal to the Higher Selves of everyone in this wonderful forum to accept that this is not my intent and let the spirit of compassion and mutual understanding reign. I do not intend to be judgemental or dishonor the choices of others, and if anything that follows comes across that way then I apologize in advance and echo Monica's call for understanding and forgiveness. I will do my very best to respect others, but at the same time I will not dishonor myself and continue to censor my thoughts so harshly.
I reflected on your comments for a long time and re-read my own several times and realized just how fearful I have become when talking about this subject. I am always walking on eggshells about something that is so very close to my heart, even in a group of loving and spiritually-minded individuals such as this one. In truth, I have been dealing with this burden for a long time and I cannot tell you how empowering it is simply to know that I am not alone in that struggle. To find other-selves out there with the same tumultuous thoughts and passions somehow makes it easier to bear. Thank you for your emboldening and inspiring words.
(03-23-2010, 08:56 PM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote: Yeah, I noticed that too! Maybe we're from the same planet! Big GrinHmm...interesting thought. As crazy as it sounds, that might just be!
(03-23-2010, 08:56 PM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote: (Yesterday 05:05 PM)Pablísimo Wrote: And INFJ in Jungian typology.
I don't know anything about that.
I just learned about the Jungian typology myself while reading Peregrinus's Unfeeling thread. There was a link posted to a Myers-Briggs personality test:
http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes2.asp
where I found out I was INFJ. It's oddly listed as less than 1% of the population but my wife (a Cancer) and sister (a Pisces) came back as INFJ from this test as well so it can't be THAT rare. To be perfectly frank though, astrology has always resonated with me more than psychology, but I found this to be an interesting corner of the field to explore. Anyway, I'm still thinking about this concept on the back burner -- I haven't yet made up my mind on it.
(03-23-2010, 08:56 PM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote: I too have been trying to tread carefully in this particular thread.
This is my point. Why must the burden of 'treading carefully' fall on us?
Good question. Please consider this part a response also to your post #50 in the "In regards to eating meat" thread and for others reading a direct response from one vegetarian to another, in an effort to increase our own compassion and understanding, not an attempt to make others feel bad about their choices.
Now, if I remove all the sugar coating, the question really becomes, why on earth should we give more tolerance and respect to meat eaters for their choice than we do to people who perform other acts we perceive as equally despicable, such as child rapists? How can we NOT feel justified, once we become aware of the enormous suffering of the animals, to forcefully, vehemently defend them and shine the cold light of day upon the very ugly realities that encompass a meat eating lifestyle in the modern age?
Why, when all we are doing is trying to minimize suffering and the unnecessary taking of life, should we walk eggshells with everyone, especially when, in our minds, this issue is so simple, obvious and "cut and dried"? Why, indeed?!?!?!
I have 3 basic reasons: Practicality, inspiration, and Humility.
1) Practicality
To answer this question, I believe that we must ask ourselves what exactly our true goals are. Do we wish to start a fight? Get on a soapbox or high horse? Make others feel bad? Sow the seeds of division in our HUMAN family? Or is that what we really want is for animal suffering to end? It's the latter of course! What I have found through trial and error is that if I do NOT walk eggshells with meat eaters, if I am overly forceful in explaining my vegetarian perspective, that it causes people to shut down. They feel anger and guilt and their heart chakra closes up tightly. At that point, they have hardened their hearts and are deaf to anything I may have to say, no matter how heartfelt or insightful, on the subject. The net result of this is that I have incited divisive feelings of separation, an "us and them" mentality, caused an other-self to feel guilt and anger and lower their consciousness level, and all this without actually doing anything to help the other person focus on the issues of animal suffering in the first place! It's not that I feel that we should have to tread lightly in a grand sense, it's that from a practical standpoint, we get nowhere by being confrontational in any way.
Even a mild discussion of meat eating versus vegetarianism tends to elicit very strong defensive reactions in many, many people, spiritual or otherwise. I, too, have had several experiences where I just asked for the vegetarian menu in a restaurant or made a simple request to leave the meat off of my pasta that sparked a defensive reaction in someone else at the table. These reactions, which I did not in any way solicit intentionally, range from people poking fun at my dietary choice to making guilty statements like "I only eat chicken occasionally" or "I need the protein" or some other excuse.
I know how arrogant this may sound to a non-vegetarian, but my personal theory is that most people are aware of the cruelty inherent in a meat-centered diet on an unconscious level, but they choose not to think about it. Most people seem to look at meat as little circles and squares of food and nothing else. It's "pork and beef", not "cows and pigs". Or how about the fact that many are horrified at the very concept of eating a dog or horse but will happily devour a burger. I really think most people push it out of their conscious mind and choose not to see what is on their plate for what it really is. I seriously doubt the average meat eater thinks to themselves "I'm responsible for the suffering and slaughter of thousands of sentient beings by my food choices."
When confronted with a vegetarian who is on that path for ethical reasons, I believe it forces people to think about things they would rather not. You're shining a light on a very dark corner of their minds and the instant reaction is an internal revulsion that manifests as guilt, anger, and defensiveness. When a person is in that mode, they are pulled by their very emotions into a lower state of vibration, and are simply not receptive to "seeing the light". And because we feel so strongly on the topic, it is all too easy for us to get self-righteous in our condemnation of the practice. Remember they are likely perceiving this as a personal attack as we are discussing something very fundamental and intimate to day to day existence.
Though I agree with the basic premise about fur, I don't really think the people who throw fake blood on people wearing fur coats are really helping to raise awareness in a constructive fashion. We just don't get very far by telling strangers in a restaurant what they are doing is cruel, true as it might be.
To me, what we have here is a situation where we simply MUST be more gentle when approaching the topic with meat eaters if we want to have any hope whatsoever of spreading the word about animal suffering. Once I shifted my attitude and approach to meat eaters by being intentionally non-judgemental and extra understanding, I began to see that I had a greater impact on people in raising awareness of animal suffering. Like I mentioned before, a good common ground has been to suggest that we first must change the horrifying conditions of animals raised for meat production as a major environmental and humanitarian priority. I mean, though I personally reject outright the slaughter of animals for food no matter how you do it, I would at least prefer that it be done in a more humane fashion, such as the methods that Lorna described in the other thread.
I have yet to meet a meat eater who disagreed that factory farming has to change when the subject was broached in a loving fashion.
2) Inspiration
I believe that a step toward the light is simultaneously a step away from the darkness. If you walk toward the east, you walk away from the west, to put it another way.
We don't have to point out others' faults -- we can instead provide an example of spiritual living where vegetarianism is a natural part. Like it or not, we vegetarians are ambassadors of a way of living and people will draw conclusions on our choices based on the way that we behave. I would much rather concentrate on being a loving being, spreading kindness and compassion wherever I can than making people feel guilty about things that they are doing that are wrong. When people see you behaving in this kind, loving and humble fashion, they are more likely to want to know more about your reasons for choosing a vegetarian path. That opens the door to loving, constructive dialogue where you can make great progress and raise awareness. I have seen the impact of my new, gentler approach in my friends and cowokers and it is a beautiful sight to see their hearts expand, even if they don't embrace vegetarianism completely. Whenever asked, I try to tell people that being vegetarian does not make me spiritual. Being spiritual is what made me become vegetarian. There is a subtle, but important difference. Overall, what I am struggling to say is that I would rather lead by letting my own light shine than by pointing out the darkness in others.
3) Humility
I have come to terms with the fact that I will never reconcile spiritual people who are meat eaters, and must acknowledge that several otherwise wonderful people exist. Carla, Dalai Lama, etc. Even Ra actually suggested to Carla to eat meat! So, I have to allow for the possibility that I am wrong. I will not choose a different path for myself,but I can at least be respectful of others and who knows, maybe I am being an extremist after all. If this choice is wrong, then I don't want to be right, but I won't be so arrogant as to ignore the possibility that I'm looking at this from a lower perspective than I should.
One thing that has helped me to is to focus on stopping the suffering and torture rather than the death (though both bother me). To try to be more compassionate and separate meat eating itself from the conditions the animals are held under, I meditate on the Native Americans, participating in the great dance of life. Taking what they needed to live, both plants and animals, but always doing so with gratitude and respect. Since I have the option not to do so, I do not eat meat, but ultimately is what they were doing wrong? Did you see the movie Avatar? There is a scene in it where Jake shoots a hexapede with an arrow. He then walks over to it and finishes the kill while he prays: "I see you, brother, and thank you. Your spirit goes with Eywa (God), your body stays behind to become part of the people." Despite the harsh moment, I found this to be very beautiful in some way.
Another thing is that there is a consciousness in plants and I am not completely convinced that I never cause suffering by eating plants. I try to minimize the suffering I inflict on this earth and overall try to tread lightly on the earth plane, but I don't lose site of the possibility of hypocrisy.
You know, I am working on correcting a wide range of problems and improving myself in many ways that have nothing to do with diet. I am trying to remain humble as I wander through this life and sometimes talking about meat eating has made me feel superior and arrogant. I do not believe I am any better than anyone else and I truly wish to focus on unity, common ground, and harmony in my interactions with other human beings.
So, there you have it. THESE are the real reasons why I think we should be careful about how we discuss this topic, not because the other side is right in any way. I hope to explain my perspective rather than justify it.
(03-23-2010, 08:56 PM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote: I recently did the same with a friend who became a vegetarian. She works at a grocery store and had recently been having some intense spiritual revelations. She began feeling ONE with the entire planet, and developed compassion whereas it had formerly been difficult for her. Suddenly, one day when she was at work and had to get some meat out of the freezer, she became acutely aware of the body parts all around her. She suddenly felt as though she were in a morgue. She no longer saw the meat wrapped in plastic as food, but as body parts of living, sentient beings...beings with faces, personalities and souls....beings who felt pain and who shrieked in terror when slaughtered.
She felt such an intense impact of compassion and pain that she burst into tears and could no longer continue at work that day. She struggled with it because she needed the job. She asked to be transferred and they sent her to work in the deli. But that wasn't safe either. They were selling live lobsters. They dipped the lobsters in boiling water, and turned on a machine at that instant so that the customers wouldn't hear the lobsters scream. But my friend heard the screams, and the screams haunted her.
She is still working at that store. Each day is a torment for her. I advised her to try to raise awareness one person at a time, and this is what she is doing. Rather than storm up to a woman wearing a fur coat, she now gently asks her is she is aware of the pain that animal endured. Rather than accuse people of being insensitive and cruel, she now tries to tactfully and gently introduce them to what they are doing. I reminded her how recently it was that she too was oblivious to the suffering.
Oh my goodness, what a terrible situation for her to be in! This is great catalyst for her soul growth, but I would not want to be forced into that environment in a million years. Please don't take this the wrong way, but given that grocery store positions are relatively low on the economic scale and competitors are prevalent in the US, I would suggest that she try to get a job at another store where she can work in a section that does not involve the execution of lobsters. That is horrifying to have to push the button day after day!! And I know exactly what she means about the meat department. There comes a point in your vegetarian path where you realize the terrible macabre sight of meat piled on a table. You one day recognize it for what it truly is and it is deeply disturbing. I try not to even look in that direction when I am in the grocery store.
I hate to share an ugly experience with you, but I too know well the scream of a lobster in pain. I was scuba diving in Florida some years ago, and had just gotten back onto the boat, warm and flushed with the glow of the joy of the ocean. I feel such oneness when I swim among the fishes and corals -- being surrounded by the Creator's beauty under the waves is a truly sublime and spiritual experience. Well, apparently one of the other divers had been catching lobster and before I realized what was happening, he actually RIPPED the claws and legs off of the lobster, laughed, and threw it in a cooler. The lobster was shrieking, mad with pain, and thrashing around wildly. It was so brutal, so shocking, and so cruel. I was just stunned, and all I could think to say was "Why don't you just kill it?" The answer was something to the effect that they taste better if they are alive when you boil them. I'm ashamed to admit to you that I held my tongue that day, saying nothing more to this man. I should have spoken up, but I didn't. I just walked to the end of the boat, looked towards the horizon and wept silently as I listened to the lobster shriek. Upset as I was, you can bet I was feeling pretty unkind thoughts at the time, dropping my vibrations in spite of myself.
I honestly don't think I could bear that sound with any regularity. I pray your friend be granted the courage to deal with it.
(03-23-2010, 08:56 PM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote: Why are feelings of guilt to be avoided? Doesn't guilt serve a purpose?
Yes, I think they do. If you feel guilty about something that is not from external programming, then it can be a great catalyst to correct actions that are hurting you. I just feel it is not my place to stimulate that guilt in others. They will need to confront it, or pretend they don't have any guilt, as they see fit, but it is not my right to make them see it.
(03-23-2010, 08:56 PM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote: I would not have had the courage to voice my own comments had it not been for you voicing yours. So thank you! This illustrates my point: Why must we feel that we must censor ourselves?
This thread has been very healing for me and you have inspired me to say far more than I normally would have and also to challenge my assumptions about how much I should normally say. What I wrote above came from the heart, but I wouldn't normally share it in front of meat eaters like this. But this forum is a special place, and if there ever was a place to be "real", it is here. As long as we are compassionate and respectful in the way we talk about this, we have every right to our views, even if they make others uncomfortable. Thank you for helping me to see that.
(03-23-2010, 08:56 PM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote: I would like to invite those who eat meat to do a little exercise. Pretend, just for a minute, that it's human children we vegetarians are championing. Would you feel differently about our obnoxious zealousness?
Compassion and understanding work both ways. Perhaps, if the vegetarians can have tolerance and understanding of those who eat meat, so too can the meat-eaters have compassion of what it must be like for vegetarians to feel so frustrated, when they are expected to politely nod and turn their backs on horrible suffering by...human children.
The fact that it's animals who are suffering rather than human children is irrelevant to someone who considers animals sentient. Animals feel pain just as acutely as do humans.
I agree completely. This is a great exercise!! Just to clarify, I believe you're not asking meat eaters to accept that human children suffering and animal suffering are of equal importance. I believe you are asking them to hypothetically imagine how they would feel about the issue if it was human kids instead of cows being tortured and killed. Then, recognize that to a vegetarian there is no real difference in these scenarios even if they personally do not equate the two in importance. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but that's the way I received it. This could be a key to compassion and understanding for a meat eater. THIS is why we're so darned passionate about it! Overzealous we may be, but thinking of it in terms of human children might help them understand where we are coming from.
In closing, I would like only to re-iterate that I meant no disrespect whatsoever by my posts and am striving to be nonjudgemental and compassionate with those who do not agree with me. I ask for the forgiveness of anyone I have offended by my position. Monica mentioned in a previous post that perhaps we should have had this conversation in a PM because in many ways our comments were directed to eachother, those of like mind with a similar struggle. And perhaps that is true, but I am not ashamed of my views. Just like the difficult pornography thread, I cannot help but feel that on our collective journey to oneness these innermost thoughts and heartfelt perspectives shared by loving people striving for understanding and growth will be helpful to others as well.
Again, let mutual understanding and compassion reign in our hearts!!
Love to all