Veggies by Force...

[Monica]

I mean, really, eat what you wish but get the terminology right and please label things appropriately for those to whom it matters!

Exactly!!!

One thing that has struck me is I have been surprised at how much I find my thought patterns resonating with yours about various topics.

Yeah, I noticed that too! Maybe we're from the same planet!

Out of curiosity, what is your astrological makeup, if you don't mind me asking? I'm a Pisces Sun / Capricorn moon / Leo Ascendant if you're into that.

Taurus Sun, Gemini Rising, Sag Moon. I'm married to a Pisces, and have had a lot of Pisceans in my life.

And INFJ in Jungian typology.

I don't know anything about that.

I too have been trying to tread carefully in this particular thread.

This is my point. Why must the burden of 'treading carefully' fall on us?

Honestly, I have struggled with these kinds of conversations for years. I find it difficult to balance and moderate my views about this and the concept of spiritual people who do not embrace the vegetarian path has been a source of much soul-searching for me. Though it feels so black and white to me, I recognize the issue is complex for some others and I try to remember to have a sense of spiritual humility about a topic that I feel passionately about.

Me too!

That is why I counseled akhtu early in this thread as a new vegetarian to be gentle and considerate when speaking to non-vegetarians.

I recently did the same with a friend who became a vegetarian. She works at a grocery store and had recently been having some intense spiritual revelations. She began feeling ONE with the entire planet, and developed compassion whereas it had formerly been difficult for her. Suddenly, one day when she was at work and had to get some meat out of the freezer, she became acutely aware of the body parts all around her. She suddenly felt as though she were in a morgue. She no longer saw the meat wrapped in plastic as food, but as body parts of living, sentient beings...beings with faces, personalities and souls....beings who felt pain and who shrieked in terror when slaughtered.

She felt such an intense impact of compassion and pain that she burst into tears and could no longer continue at work that day. She struggled with it because she needed the job. She asked to be transferred and they sent her to work in the deli. But that wasn't safe either. They were selling live lobsters. They dipped the lobsters in boiling water, and turned on a machine at that instant so that the customers wouldn't hear the lobsters scream. But my friend heard the screams, and the screams haunted her.

She is still working at that store. Each day is a torment for her. I advised her to try to raise awareness one person at a time, and this is what she is doing. Rather than storm up to a woman wearing a fur coat, she now gently asks her is she is aware of the pain that animal endured. Rather than accuse people of being insensitive and cruel, she now tries to tactfully and gently introduce them to what they are doing. I reminded her how recently it was that she too was oblivious to the suffering.

For some reason discussions of meat eating brings out guilt, anger, and hurt feelings very easily.

Why are feelings of guilt to be avoided? Doesn't guilt serve a purpose?

I must ruefully admit that I've had more than my share of conversations about meat eating go sour in the past, and I do not feel that they really helped anyone. I am actively working on letting go of my attachment to vegetarianism as a "spiritual litmus" test and am trying to teach myself to be more nonjudgmental.

Me too.

I almost deleted the comment because I was afraid it would trigger anger or guilt in others and that it came off as a bit "preachy".

I would not have had the courage to voice my own comments had it not been for you voicing yours. So thank you! This illustrates my point: Why must we feel that we must censor ourselves?

When I read the comment about buffets hating me because veggies are more expensive than meats, I was sorely tempted to write up some hasty response pointing out the horribly skewed economics of the food industry due to factory farming. Meat may be cheaper than fruits and vegetables in a monetary sense, but it certainly isn't cheaper to produce in terms of actual resources expended and its production has far worse consequences for the environment.

Why did you refrain? Is not education about these issues a good thing? These are issues that concern us all, not just the animals. It concerns the environment and other humans as well.

Then, when I read the suggestion of finding a balance between meat and veggies, I thought the idea was patently absurd. To a person like me, who does indeed believe in balance, the idea of finding a balance between meat and veggies is like suggesting finding a balance between child molestation and playing with your kids on the playground!! It just doesn't compute!

My feelings exactly!

I would like to invite those who eat meat to do a little exercise. Pretend, just for a minute, that it's human children we vegetarians are championing. Would you feel differently about our obnoxious zealousness?

Compassion and understanding work both ways. Perhaps, if the vegetarians can have tolerance and understanding of those who eat meat, so too can the meat-eaters have compassion of what it must be like for vegetarians to feel so frustrated, when they are expected to politely nod and turn their backs on horrible suffering by...human children.

The fact that it's animals who are suffering rather than human children is irrelevant to someone who considers animals sentient. Animals feel pain just as acutely as do humans.

The Creator whispers in my ear and tells me that the vegetarian path is right..... for me. I feel it in every fiber of my being, in the very depths of my soul that I cannot and will not and should not eat animal flesh for any reason whatsoever. I know reincarnation exists and nothing is lost, I understand that, but I simply cannot be any other way. I am convinced only of my own path, each must find their own way. I am only too aware of just how ignorant I am, ultimately. I look at beautiful souls like Carla Rueckert or the Dalai Lama, or even some of these fine people on the forum, and they are not vegetarian but in many ways have achieved a higher level of spiritual greatness than me. I wish I could understand how they can be so spiritual and yet eat animal flesh. I don't believe I ever will, though, and I'm finding peace with that. Just because I "can't figure it out" doesn't mean that what they are doing is wrong in a grand, cosmic sense. I find that focusing on these things stimulates feelings of separation in me and that is not what I am striving towards. So, I'm working on accepting that I DON'T understand and probably never will, but I will content myself with removing the log from my own eye and stop worrying about the speck in my neighbor's! And despite my vegetarianism, I am not innocent -- I have taken life accidentally and intentionally in my years in 3D life. I must do what my heart tells me in this area, but I pray that I will be granted the wisdom of when to speak and when to be silent on this issue. That I will somehow find a way to stand up for my brutalized and victimized animal brethren, without sowing discord and disharmony among my human brothers and sisters.

...This topic is so very hard for me. I pray for compassion and wisdom and to be nonjudgmental. How to overcome the paradox of being nonjudgmental about something you personally feel is completely wrong? I really don't know! I really don't, but I am trying to understand. I counsel everyone who eats meat only to give gratitude to the soul that has given its life for their sustenance. I have resigned myself that I will never have all the answers nor completely understand this topic and all of its ramifications. I will simply continue to Be the way I feel I must Be, and try to honor both my human family as well as my younger brothers and sisters in the animal kingdom. For me, THAT is the balance I am striving towards.

Again, your thoughts are my thoughts.

I ask all of you for forgiveness and compassion. I have probably said too much. I hope that you can understand the kinship I feel with Pablisimo right now, the release of a burden and the joy of finding someone who understands what has been such a struggle for me. Many of my comments were directed at him. Perhaps we should have have had our conversation in private, via pm, so as not to offend anyone. But I know that both Pablisimo and I have tried valiantly to not be judgmental, and if we have failed, please forgive us! I hope that we will be forgiven for choosing to express our thoughts, for the sake of sharing and understanding other points of view. (And, this is a vegetarian thread!)