Veggies by Force...

[Pablísimo]

Well, to be honest, this is a bit of a pet peeve among vegetarians. Just as Christians have designated certain criteria (such as believing that the Bible is the word of God, Jesus died for mankind's sins, etc.) to be considered a Christian, so too have vegetarians agreed on basic criteria to be considered vegetarian. The consensual definition of 'vegetarian' is one who doesn't eat anything that ever had a face: ie., any animal, whether that be red meat, poultry, or fish. All vegetarian societies that I know of agree on this definition.

Those who choose to take it a step further and avoid eggs and dairy are called 'vegans.'

Those who eat occasional chicken, fish, or other meat are not vegetarians by definition, though their diet might be mostly vegetarian.

I agree 100% with your definitions and also that it is a bit of a pet peeve for me as well. I mean, really, eat what you wish but get the terminology right and please label things appropriately for those to whom it matters! By the way, the name I use for people that eat chicken or fish, even in small amounts, but are otherwise vegetarian is "meat minimalists."

Wow, Pablisimo, what an amazing post!!! Word for word, I agree 100%. You have articulated what I had wanted to say but lacked the words.

You know, I have been reading these forums rather much lately though my posting has been minimal. One thing that has struck me is I have been surprised at how much I find my thought patterns resonating with yours about various topics. Out of curiosity, what is your astrological makeup, if you don't mind me asking? I'm a Pisces Sun / Capricorn moon / Leo Ascendant if you're into that. And INFJ in Jungian typology.

I'm finding participation in this thread rather challenging.

I agree that it's "not strictly necessary to be vegetarian" in order to follow the STO path. We all know lots of beautiful, loving people who eat meat.

At the same time, I will be honest here and admit that I struggle with how to converse with spiritually-oriented people on the meat issue. The reason is that, while I respect the choice of others when no one is being hurt, my own spirituality makes a distinction when there are victims involved, and I feel compelled to speak up on behalf of the victims. How, then, do I speak up on behalf of the animals while still remaining non-judgmental towards my friends who either are ignorant of animal suffering, or, for whatever reason, justify it?

Amen to that, sister!! I too have been trying to tread carefully in this particular thread. Honestly, I have struggled with these kinds of conversations for years. I find it difficult to balance and moderate my views about this and the concept of spiritual people who do not embrace the vegetarian path has been a source of much soul-searching for me. Though it feels so black and white to me, I recognize the issue is complex for some others and I try to remember to have a sense of spiritual humility about a topic that I feel passionately about.

That is why I counseled akhtu early in this thread as a new vegetarian to be gentle and considerate when speaking to non-vegetarians. For some reason discussions of meat eating brings out guilt, anger, and hurt feelings very easily.

I must ruefully admit that I've had more than my share of conversations about meat eating go sour in the past, and I do not feel that they really helped anyone. I am actively working on letting go of my attachment to vegetarianism as a "spiritual litmus" test and am trying to teach myself to be more nonjudgmental.

I very nearly crossed my own personal line about forcefully sharing my views on vegetarianism with that post you replied to. I finally only justified it to myself by the rationalization that akhtu had recently become a vegetarian and hopefully my words would strengthen her resolve and banish some doubt about "if it's ok for animals to do it...". Even so, I almost deleted the comment because I was afraid it would trigger anger or guilt in others and that it came off as a bit "preachy".

I was more successful in other parts of the thread....

When I read the comment about buffets hating me because veggies are more expensive than meats, I was sorely tempted to write up some hasty response pointing out the horribly skewed economics of the food industry due to factory farming. Meat may be cheaper than fruits and vegetables in a monetary sense, but it certainly isn't cheaper to produce in terms of actual resources expended and its production has far worse consequences for the environment.

Then, when I read the suggestion of finding a balance between meat and veggies, I thought the idea was patently absurd. To a person like me, who does indeed believe in balance, the idea of finding a balance between meat and veggies is like suggesting finding a balance between child molestation and playing with your kids on the playground!! It just doesn't compute!

Ah but if I had done so I would have been reinforcing my old patterns of thought -- the ones that I am trying to work past. Though it could be argued I have just aired these very same thoughts, I have hopefully done so in a context that I sincerely hope comes across thoughtfully and lovingly, as that is my intention. Passionate and judgmental comments are not the kind of words that I want to use with my brothers and sisters who have a different view! To have done so would only sow the seeds of discord instead of finding common ground and shared spiritual values. The fact that thefool clarified that he was exempting those who choose vegetarianism for ethical or religious reasons proved to me that he is not one-sided on the issue at all. And I assume artichoke knows good and well about the economics of food production in this modern age and meant her comment in a lighthearted way. I have read several insightful, loving posts by thefool and artichoke and do not for a moment believe them to be anything less than great souls doing the best they can in this confusing plane of existence. Even so, I truly believe I would have been perceived as more than a little rude if I'd let my true thoughts be known so boldly.

I listen to my heart, to my intuition. The Creator whispers in my ear and tells me that the vegetarian path is right..... for me. I feel it in every fiber of my being, in the very depths of my soul that I cannot and will not and should not eat animal flesh for any reason whatsoever. I know reincarnation exists and nothing is lost, I understand that, but I simply cannot be any other way. I am convinced only of my own path, each must find their own way. I am only too aware of just how ignorant I am, ultimately. I look at beautiful souls like Carla Rueckert or the Dalai Lama, or even some of these fine people on the forum, and they are not vegetarian but in many ways have achieved a higher level of spiritual greatness than me. I wish I could understand how they can be so spiritual and yet eat animal flesh. I don't believe I ever will, though, and I'm finding peace with that. Just because I "can't figure it out" doesn't mean that what they are doing is wrong in a grand, cosmic sense. I find that focusing on these things stimulates feelings of separation in me and that is not what I am striving towards. So, I'm working on accepting that I DON'T understand and probably never will, but I will content myself with removing the log from my own eye and stop worrying about the speck in my neighbor's! And despite my vegetarianism, I am not innocent -- I have taken life accidentally and intentionally in my years in 3D life. I must do what my heart tells me in this area, but I pray that I will be granted the wisdom of when to speak and when to be silent on this issue. That I will somehow find a way to stand up for my brutalized and victimized animal brethren, without sowing discord and disharmony among my human brothers and sisters. I have found a peace in leaving this topic in the Creator's hands... following my heart and sense of ethics, while trying hard to respect others that have a different path. One common ground I have found with meat eaters is that they almost always at least agree that factory farming and the treatment of animals raised for food needs to be improved. Perhaps that is a better area of focus than on a pure discussion of vegetarian versus meat eating.

By the way, I'm not implying you have crossed any lines or said anything judgmental, I'm just sharing my inner struggle on this with you as I suspect it will resonate.

This topic is so very hard for me. I pray for compassion and wisdom and to be nonjudgmental. How to overcome the paradox of being nonjudgmental about something you personally feel is completely wrong? I really don't know! I really don't, but I am trying to understand. I counsel everyone who eats meat only to give gratitude to the soul that has given its life for their sustenance. I have resigned myself that I will never have all the answers nor completely understand this topic and all of its ramifications. I will simply continue to Be the way I feel I must Be, and try to honor both my human family as well as my younger brothers and sisters in the animal kingdom. For me, THAT is the balance I am striving towards.

Love to all

In respect to the overall lighthearted tone of this thread, I will continue my seriously ponderous (and potentially volatile) thoughts in another thread. If anyone would like to explore further the discussion about the spiritual implications of eating animals, please join me in the In regards to eating meat thread.

I would like to continue this conversation in that thread... as you rightly noted this thread has become more lighthearted and perhaps these musings are disruptive to that spirit. Good conversation though!!