Veggies by Force...

[Monica]

I will do my very best to respect others, but at the same time I will not dishonor myself and continue to censor my thoughts so harshly.

Wow, this statement really jumped out at me! What an amazing revelation! That is exactly right...I have been dishonoring myself and limiting my own expression. Is it not a disservice to both myself and to other-selves, to deny them an opportunity to love and accept the passion and beauty of people with other views...people like you and me? We are expressions of the Creator too! And if this issue is weighing heavily on our hearts, isn't there a reason for that?

...realized just how fearful I have become when talking about this subject. I am always walking on eggshells about something that is so very close to my heart, even in a group of loving and spiritually-minded individuals such as this one.

Yes, I too have been very nervous about these veg threads...and being a moderator doesn't help to lessen my discomfort, for I am apprehensive that my words will be scrutinized even more for that reason.

In truth, I have been dealing with this burden for a long time and I cannot tell you how empowering it is simply to know that I am not alone in that struggle. To find other-selves out there with the same tumultuous thoughts and passions somehow makes it easier to bear. Thank you for your emboldening and inspiring words.

The same here...thank YOU!

Now, if I remove all the sugar coating, the question really becomes, why on earth should we give more tolerance and respect to meat eaters for their choice than we do to people who perform other acts we perceive as equally despicable, such as child rapists? How can we NOT feel justified, once we become aware of the enormous suffering of the animals, to forcefully, vehemently defend them and shine the cold light of day upon the very ugly realities that encompass a meat eating lifestyle in the modern age?

The difference is that, in the mainstream consensus, raping children is despicable, whereas the mainstream consensus about eating animals is that it's acceptable.

We are attempting to change the paradigm, and paradigms don't get changed overnight. Just a few decades ago, racism was still rampant, and we could not have had an African-American president. While racism is still alive and well, unfortunately, we've come a long way. The same with civil rights, women's rights, etc.

We are pioneers on the animal cruelty issue, just as pioneers worked hard to get our mainstream to the point where they could elect a Black president. In a few decades, perhaps people will be horrified that it was once considered 'normal' to eat animals!

It's not that I feel that we should have to tread lightly in a grand sense, it's that from a practical standpoint, we get nowhere by being confrontational in any way.

I agree completely! However, may I remind everyone that this is a thread about vegetarianism. If Pablisimo and I had barged into a thread about dreams or meditation and started a rampage about cruelty to animals, I could understand that the people who just wanted to talk about dreams would feel defensive. But, this is a thread about vegetarianism! No one is being forced to read this thread. Those who have chosen to read and participate in this thread should expect to hear the opinions of vegetarians. How is discussing vegetarianism in a thread about vegetarianism being confrontational?

I know you didn't say it was. I'm just expressing my own opinion that, our normal habit of walking on eggshells needn't be necessary on a thread about vegetarianism. While I do agree with your 3-point explanation completely, 100%! I also think that you and I could allow our meat-eating friends a little more credit. I think they will accept us with love and compassion. I don't think we have to walk on eggshells quite as much as we do out in the everyday world, or even in a thread about dreams. I think we can trust that those who chose to participate in this thread about vegetarianism will be able to handle our passionate views on the subject. I really do trust in the love of our B4 members. Love and understanding will prevail.

I know how arrogant this may sound to a non-vegetarian, but my personal theory is that most people are aware of the cruelty inherent in a meat-centered diet on an unconscious level, but they choose not to think about it. Most people seem to look at meat as little circles and squares of food and nothing else. It's "pork and beef", not "cows and pigs". Or how about the fact that many are horrified at the very concept of eating a dog or horse but will happily devour a burger. I really think most people push it out of their conscious mind and choose not to see what is on their plate for what it really is. I seriously doubt the average meat eater thinks to themselves "I'm responsible for the suffering and slaughter of thousands of sentient beings by my food choices."

Exactly! This is precisely why I asked the question, Why does this topic stir up feelings of guilt?

I agree that it's not our place to intentionally seek to make another person feel guilt. But neither should we have to stifle who WE are, in order to shelter others from their own guilt. If I simply order a veggie meal at a restaurant and my meat-eating friend feels guilt, maybe there's a reason for that. I'm not going to go out of my way to sugar-coat their guilt. Maybe their task is to confront that guilt. Certainly those who are otherwise aware and awake spiritually can be trusted to deal with their own feelings without us having to protect them from themselves. All we can do is offer love and compassion, but we can do that while still allowing whatever feelings that surface naturally, to surface, and trust that they will serve some purpose.

When confronted with a vegetarian who is on that path for ethical reasons, I believe it forces people to think about things they would rather not. You're shining a light on a very dark corner of their minds and the instant reaction is an internal revulsion that manifests as guilt, anger, and defensiveness. When a person is in that mode, they are pulled by their very emotions into a lower state of vibration, and are simply not receptive to "seeing the light". And because we feel so strongly on the topic, it is all too easy for us to get self-righteous in our condemnation of the practice. Remember they are likely perceiving this as a personal attack as we are discussing something very fundamental and intimate to day to day existence.

Exactly. But why are they perceiving this as a personal attack? I submit that this is something they might consider changing. If I simply order a veggie meal, and my friend feels attacked just by my very presence (which has happened many times), why is it my responsibility as to how my mere presence makes them feel?

I agree that we shouldn't get on a soapbox. And I actually rarely ever do that, anymore. But this is a discussion forum. That's what we're doing - we discussing our views. Again, I think if someone chooses to not hear our reasons for being vegetarian, they certainly can choose to not read this thread. No one is forcing anyone to listen to a lecture. This is just a discussion and all opinions are welcome!

Though I agree with the basic premise about fur, I don't really think the people who throw fake blood on people wearing fur coats are really helping to raise awareness in a constructive fashion. We just don't get very far by telling strangers in a restaurant what they are doing is cruel, true as it might be.

Oh I agree totally on that! I've never, ever done anything like that. When I first became a veg., I did start conversations with people, and I never do that anymore. Now, I only speak up if an opportunity presents itself. I take that as a cue that the person might be receptive on some level. I disagree with those who throw fake blood on fur coats, vandalize medical labs, and other violent acts. Those are the extremists. I do, however, fully support graphic billboards, graphic videos on youtube, etc. because it is REAL so why not show it?

Once I shifted my attitude and approach to meat eaters by being intentionally non-judgemental and extra understanding, I began to see that I had a greater impact on people in raising awareness of animal suffering.

Same here.

a good common ground has been to suggest that we first must change the horrifying conditions of animals raised for meat production as a major environmental and humanitarian priority. I mean, though I personally reject outright the slaughter of animals for food no matter how you do it, I would at least prefer that it be done in a more humane fashion

I understand and respect that approach, and I do the same by encouraging people to at least by free-range eggs and organic meats and dairy, but it's not the approach I focus on. Instead, I tend to focus more on encouraging people to start reducing their meat consumption. I prefer to be very upfront about the fact that the idea of 'humane killing' is an oxymoron.

I have yet to meet a meat eater who disagreed that factory farming has to change when the subject was broached in a loving fashion.

Well, I guess the abolitionists made progress by getting slave 'owners' [sic] to treat their 'slaves' more humanely...

I agree with pretty much everything else you said.

I meditate on the Native Americans, participating in the great dance of life. Taking what they needed to live, both plants and animals, but always doing so with gratitude and respect.

I have no issue whatsoever with the killing of animals, if done in the way the Native Americans did it, AND if it is TRULY NECESSARY. They would hunt the weakest in the herd, instead of the strongest, and give thanks to its spirit as it died. They also believed that the spirit of the animal merged with theirs. I believe they were correct. Therefore, I don't see that as violent killing. I believe that spirit of the deer didn't get yanked from its body, but was invited to merge with the spirit of the hunter. This is the same way I view the eating of live plants. The Native Americans were essentially eating a live deer, just transferring its spirit to their own, rather than overriding its free will.

Although I respect the way they did it, I don't think their example applies to our present society. I would speculate that very few hunters hunt in the way the Native Americans did. Rather, they go after the biggest buck, as a trophy. And, they don't meet the 2nd criteria of NEED.

So, although I agree with you about the Native Americans, I really don't think their ways can be applied here. Nor do I think going back to their ways is feasible nor beneficial. Most people don't hunt their own food. They make very little connection, if any, between the living animal and the meat wrapped in plastic at the grocery store. And, most importantly, the spirit of that cow is long gone. It has been gone for days or weeks. And it was torn apart from its body, with no regard or thanks, by the butcher. Even if the animal is given a less cruel environment to live in, when it is slaughtered, it it no less cruel.

Another thing is that there is a consciousness in plants and I am not completely convinced that I never cause suffering by eating plants. I try to minimize the suffering I inflict on this earth and overall try to tread lightly on the earth plane, but I don't lose site of the possibility of hypocrisy.

It's all about minimizing the suffering.

Here's a hypothetical situation:

Suppose you were in a situation in which a dog and a human child were both about to die, and you could save only one of them. Which would you save?

Most of us would obviously save the child, right? That's a no-brainer.

Even most animal-rights activists (save perhaps a few hardcore extremists) would save the child first. I think we can all agree on that.

Now, suppose a tree was about to fall, and would crush either a dog or a lettuce plant. Which would you save first?

OK, that is such a no-brainer it's almost comical.

I rest my case.

THESE are the real reasons why I think we should be careful about how we discuss this topic, not because the other side is right in any way. I hope to explain my perspective rather than justify it.

As always, you've done a terrific job!

Just to clarify, I believe you're not asking meat eaters to accept that human children suffering and animal suffering are of equal importance. I believe you are asking them to hypothetically imagine how they would feel about the issue if it was human kids instead of cows being tortured and killed. Then, recognize that to a vegetarian there is no real difference in these scenarios even if they personally do not equate the two in importance.

Oh yes, you are correct! It didn't even enter my mind that anyone would think I was suggesting that animals and humans were of equal importance. As I just mentioned, I would always put humans ahead of animals. Why do I do that? it's common sense...instinct. With the Law of One, I now understand about spiritual evolution. Some people who don't share our spiritual views might actually argue that point...But yes, I do value humans more than animals...just as I value animals more than plants. Understanding 2D-3D and the levels in between just confirms what seems natural to me.

Rather than take this to an extreme and tolerate animal suffering just because I can't avoid plant suffering or microbe suffering, I see it as starting with what we KNOW...we KNOW humans are sentient so obviously we want to start there...and the obvious next in importance, imho, after humans is animal suffering. We have to start someplace!

They needn't be prioritized. The hypothetical situation I gave above rarely happens in real life. In real life, we can work to avoid both human and animal suffering...and guess what? By eliminating or at least reducing meat consumption, we help humans!!! There would be more food to go around, and we'd have a much better chance at ending human starvation, if we all adopted a vegetarian diet. So we don't have to choose. They work together.

[Lorna]

"Even a mild discussion of meat eating versus vegetarianism tends to elicit very strong defensive reactions in many, many people, spiritual or otherwise. I, too, have had several experiences where I just asked for the vegetarian menu in a restaurant or made a simple request to leave the meat off of my pasta that sparked a defensive reaction in someone else at the table."


Such interesting posts i don't really know how to do quotes from huge posts so i've just copied and pasted pablisimo's text above. what you describe is so very very common for vegetarians, it never ceases to amaze me, but in fact my expereinces in these situations are often more aggressive, along the lines that monica describes where i suddenly feel under attack by people who are offended that i don't eat meat.

however, just to share an anecdote, i had an interesting experience on a christmas night out a few months ago with 12 butchers, only one of whom i really knew and even he didn't know i was veggie (even though i do the odd piece of work for him). anyway... i asked if there was a veggie option rather than a turkey christmas meal, and after the sound of jaws dropping had passed i had a really interesting, warm and supportive conversation with all these butchers, who were intrigued at why a vegetarian would feel so comfortable with them and would indeed actively support one of them - i mainly help the guy to win awards which he quite rightly deserves.

having had these horrible 'attack' experiences in the past i was genuinely quite worried about going on the meal and would probably have wriggled out of it if it had been easy for me to do so. but i'm really glad i didn't. what was interesting to me was that it was me that had the preconceptions about how these people would react to my choices, they were actually very open

[thefool]

Now, suppose a tree was about to fall, and would crush either a dog or a lettuce plant. Which would you save first?

OK, that is such a no-brainer it's almost comical.

I rest my case.

Who would you save first?- The Tree of course. As when you save the tree the dog and lettuce plant both are saved as well

Seriously, Monica - I have no problem with you expressing your views on this topic. You are certainly very passionate about the subject and have to say a lot so don't hold back by all means...

[Monica]

Who would you save first?- The Tree of course. As when you save the tree the dog and lettuce plant both are saved as well

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA I LOVE IT!!!

Seriously, Monica - I have no problem with you expressing your views on this topic. You are certainly very passionate about the subject and have to say a lot so don't hold back by all means...

Whew! That's a relief!!! Thank you for that! Now I feel much better!

---

having had these horrible 'attack' experiences in the past i was genuinely quite worried about going on the meal and would probably have wriggled out of it if it had been easy for me to do so. but i'm really glad i didn't. what was interesting to me was that it was me that had the preconceptions about how these people would react to my choices, they were actually very open

That's a beautiful story, Lorna! Thanks for sharing that!

I have yet to experience something like that, so I am heartened by your experience.

For me, thus far, I seem to intimidate people just by BEING a vegetarian, even though I say nothing at all about it. So many times I have reassured people to go ahead and eat their meat, that they needn't feel self-conscious in front of me. But I will be honest about my reasons if asked.

I also try to raise awareness in small ways whenever possible. This past weekend, I was at a convention, and they served lunch. I asked the waitperson if there was anything vegetarian. She pointed to the tuna sandwiches. So I repeated my question. She looked puzzled. I repeated, "I'm a vegetarian. I don't eat meat." She then finally realized that tuna is meat. I admit I didn't make it easy for her. I said it that way to convey that tuna=meat, for the sake of the next vegetarian to visit that restaurant.

Whenever I go to a restaurant and ask what they have that's veg, they usually point me to the salads. I then say, "Do you have anything besides just salads? We vegetarians would be skinny if we just ate salads!"

I try to keep it lighthearted yet offer some education at the same time.

At the airport, I had a 2-hour layover, and couldn't find anything edible except cheese pizza, and I am trying to avoid eating so much cheese for health reasons. I stopped at an Italian restaurant in the airport that had nothing vegetarian on the menu except cheesy pasta. The chef offered to make me whatever I wanted. He made me a special potato and green bean/asparagus dish that was absolutely wonderful! I was so appreciative I gave him a generous tip. So I am starting to have some good experiences...awareness seems to be improving, slowly.

[artichoke]

Violence is any act that impacts the life of another. This is an inherently violent place, this Earth. The Earth is inherently violent. Just by being Herself she takes life and gives life. This is the act, the violence.

Even plants have feelings. When I awakened I could not eat anything and struggled with just living for in breathing I was killing another-- the act of existing was killing something somewhere. The clothes I wear. The furniture I sit upon. The car I drive. The food I eat. The Insects that meet their death at my hand and/or windshield. This is an act of violence. I had to then choose my life or the lives of others. Even committing suicide is an act of violence against self. Not eating is an act of violence against self. So what is one to do with all these acts of violence?

I made peace with it all for I had to choose life, my life and that of my child's. So I now eat and eat that which balances me and keeps me in balance. But I still struggle with the ethicalness of being here on Earth and the Violence of Living.

fairyfarmgirl

As usual I agree with what FFG says. I've found in my life that there are often no nice answers. I won't go into details here but perhaps you have had similar experiences. I don't agonize about it any more. I see problems with every course of action I can imagine. And often I feel I must respond immediately (that is a weakness of mine; sometimes I respond too fast when I could have taken time.) I do my best, listen to guidance if it's available and makes sense to me, and ... move on.

Meat animals are raised because they will be killed for food. If there were not demand for the meat, the animal would not have been born to begin with. Transporting vegetables is more expensive than transporting meat, per unit of food value. That means more "fossil" fuels are used, etc. I have a garden but that's not enough to feed my family, and the local "boutique" grower I know charges about three times too much. Choices. At least we eat only organic or natural meat. I don't want my kids fed with artificial hormones and antibiotics intended for other species.

One of my weaknesses is that I don't have much patience in a lot of ways. There's a lot here I don't have respect for, and I get irritated putting up with it. I don't know if the lack of patience has anything to do with red meat consumption. But I know my body feels tired without it. I think some chemical bodies need it and some don't. The only time I felt good when eating no red meat was when I ate nothing else either, a one-week fast. I think my body switched over to using ambient energy from the atmosphere, or something. At the end I was hardly even drinking water. I could have gone longer -- some people claim to go years -- but it became socially difficult, so I gave up the fast.

I don't feel right and wrong so strongly. Someone's a killer, someone's a saint, whatever, it could have been me. It is me. Someone's STO, someone's STS ... heck, everyone is both! And since I believe the soul is eternal, I can only wish those dying in the physical body (plants, meat animals, humans, myself one day, others on other days) a decent or even pleasant experience of it and moving on to the next thing.

By the way this artichoke is a "he" and a cannibal. I eat artichokes.

This was pretty rambling, sorry about that.

[fairyfarmgirl]

Violence is any act that impacts the life of another. This is an inherently violent place, this Earth. The Earth is inherently violent. Just by being Herself she takes life and gives life. This is the act, the violence.

Even plants have feelings. When I awakened I could not eat anything and struggled with just living for in breathing I was killing another-- the act of existing was killing something somewhere. The clothes I wear. The furniture I sit upon. The car I drive. The food I eat. The Insects that meet their death at my hand and/or windshield. This is an act of violence. I had to then choose my life or the lives of others. Even committing suicide is an act of violence against self. Not eating is an act of violence against self. So what is one to do with all these acts of violence?

I made peace with it all for I had to choose life, my life and that of my child's. So I now eat and eat that which balances me and keeps me in balance. But I still struggle with the ethicalness of being here on Earth and the Violence of Living.

fairyfarmgirl

As usual I agree with what FFG says. I've found in my life that there are often no nice answers. I won't go into details here but perhaps you have had similar experiences. I don't agonize about it any more. I see problems with every course of action I can imagine. And often I feel I must respond immediately (that is a weakness of mine; sometimes I respond too fast when I could have taken time.) I do my best, listen to guidance if it's available and makes sense to me, and ... move on.

Meat animals are raised because they will be killed for food. If there were not demand for the meat, the animal would not have been born to begin with. Transporting vegetables is more expensive than transporting meat, per unit of food value. That means more "fossil" fuels are used, etc. I have a garden but that's not enough to feed my family, and the local "boutique" grower I know charges about three times too much. Choices. At least we eat only organic or natural meat. I don't want my kids fed with artificial hormones and antibiotics intended for other species.

One of my weaknesses is that I don't have much patience in a lot of ways. There's a lot here I don't have respect for, and I get irritated putting up with it. I don't know if the lack of patience has anything to do with red meat consumption. But I know my body feels tired without it. I think some chemical bodies need it and some don't. The only time I felt good when eating no red meat was when I ate nothing else either, a one-week fast. I think my body switched over to using ambient energy from the atmosphere, or something. At the end I was hardly even drinking water. I could have gone longer -- some people claim to go years -- but it became socially difficult, so I gave up the fast.

I don't feel right and wrong so strongly. Someone's a killer, someone's a saint, whatever, it could have been me. It is me. Someone's STO, someone's STS ... heck, everyone is both! And since I believe the soul is eternal, I can only wish those dying in the physical body (plants, meat animals, humans, myself one day, others on other days) a decent or even pleasant experience of it and moving on to the next thing.

By the way this artichoke is a "he" and a cannibal. I eat artichokes.

This was pretty rambling, sorry about that.

Artichoke:

I have just finally recieved my copy of my favorite cookbook and information book all rolled into one. I just Love this book!
Nourishing Traditions

I highly recommend it to anyone who is an omnivore... even chickens and fruit bats are omnivores! They eat bugs! They need to eat fauna protein in order to live... they LOVE to eat bugs and a stray mouse or two. But NEVER let them eat eggs if you wish to eat the eggs instead for they will then steal each others eggs and eat them... But I digress---

fairyfarmgirl
[/quote]

[Pablísimo]

I just wanted to write a quick final post in this thread to thank everyone for sharing their perspectives on this topic.

While I certainly don't agree with those last comments truly reflecting the reality of the economics of meat versus vegetable production, nor on the relevance of a fruit bat's choices to my own, I appreciate what you guys are trying to convey, I really do.

I personally did not change my core beliefs about meat eating -- and I rather suspect neither did anyone else participating in this thread -- but I do feel that despite the tense moments, I learned a great deal. Reading this thread helped me to better understand and accept other views on an issue that is very dear to my heart. I wrote things in this thread that I've never spoken aloud in "mixed company" and I feel that I received the same level of honesty in kind from those who do not refrain from meat consumption. I recognize these posts as gifts to each other -- gifts of openness and honesty - a true peek into the hearts of beloved Other-Selves coming from different places.

Monica's posts helped me a great deal to clarify my inner thoughts, to know that I am not alone in my struggle, and to enhance my understanding of my own conclusions. Fairyfarmgirl, thefool, and others helped me to take a more balanced, nuanced view of the other side of this question and to really ponder deeply the VALIDITY of other points of view. Thank you, thank you, for such thoughtful catalyst.

I hope that both those who choose to eat meat and those who choose to refrain will help raise the bar on these kinds of conversations in the wider world. All too frequently, vegetarians get arrogant and feel superior or angry at meat eaters. At the same time, it is far too common of an experience for a vegetarian quietly making their choice to be harassed and antagonized by those who will not respect this choice. Let's be honest, here -- outside of a loving place such as this forum, these attitudes are common. I propose we try to take the spirit of the forum with us the next time the topic arises with those who are not quite so spiritually-oriented. Let's raise the compassion and love in this debate -- remember how we respect each other and try to help others find the love and common ground even in disagreement.

I'd like to focus on the love in each and every moment. There's not much more to say on this topic, really. The words we have already written, from all angles, stand on their own, echoing through the ether at their own level of vibration. It is my sincere wish that this dialogue be helpful to others that may one day read them.

One thing I found particularly heartening is that everyone seemed to have a well-thought and multi-dimensional stance on the topic, as opposed to unconscious habit or unthinking fanaticism. We may choose differently than each other, but clearly we are doing so with AWARENESS.

I am walking my own personal STO path to the best of my ability, following my heart and the Creator's gentle guidance. While I do so, I will endeavor to remember that our paths are all unique, as are our very beings, but that at our core, we are One. Each of you are beautiful, sacred expressions of the One Infinite Creator that is All. To everyone, even to those with whom I do not agree, I respect your path, honor the validity of your perspective, and thank you for this civil and open dialogue.

Thank you so much, dear brothers and sisters, for teaching me, for challenging me, for sharing your innermost thoughts, and for loving me. I am humbled and filled with gratitude and joy that you are here with me on this Journey.

Love to all

[fairyfarmgirl]

My experience has been always of respect... everywhere I go there are Vegans, Vegetarians, Vegan Raw Foodist, Purist Fruitarians, Omnivores, Raw food Omnivores and Raw Food Vegetarians... LOL... They all seem to get along quite well.

The stores cater to all types of eating choices... restaurants too...

Most of my friends are staunch purist Raw Foodist Vegans and they LOVE just the same as I LOVE them.. I believe if RESPECT is given then it is RECIEVED as WELL... as I am a mostly RAW Food Omnivore I have many foods in common with my Raw Food Vegan friends... Since I am an Omnivore I will eat what is given (as long as it is corn syrup, msg, preservative and food colorant and l-cystine (comes from human hair) free ... and that works out GREAT for being well fed when visiting my Vegan, Vegan Raw Foodist, Vegetarian, Vegetarian Raw Foodist, Omnivore Raw Foodist, Fruitarian Friends....


I have friends who are vegetarians and also Gluten and Corn Allergic... Since I am an Omnivore I eat well when I visit them... and they eat really well when they visit me as I am an accomplished food preparer and cook... and I Respect their choices... and serve foods that are compatible with their choices and prepared properly...

So my question is... this... do you expect to be treated poorly due to your food choices? Fore I have traveled far and wide and most that I have known are vegetarian...

Love--
fairyfarmgirl

[Monica]

do you expect to be treated poorly due to your food choices? Fore I have traveled far and wide and most that I have known are vegetarian...

Really? Most of the people you know are vegetarian? That's amazing. You have clearly attracted a lot of vegetarians in your life, since vegetarians are only a very tiny % of the general population. (What is it...maybe 1% if I remember correctly?)

Or maybe it's where you live. I live in Texas, known for cowboys and ranchers.

I don't encounter problems much anymore since I started working at home. Now, I can choose whom I want to be around, to a great degree. Back when I worked in an office, I had no such luxury.

[fairyfarmgirl]

do you expect to be treated poorly due to your food choices? Fore I have traveled far and wide and most that I have known are vegetarian...

Really? Most of the people you know are vegetarian? That's amazing. You have clearly attracted a lot of vegetarians in your life, since vegetarians are only a very tiny % of the general population. (What is it...maybe 1% if I remember correctly?)

Or maybe it's where you live. I live in Texas, known for cowboys and ranchers.

I don't encounter problems much anymore since I started working at home. Now, I can choose whom I want to be around, to a great degree. Back when I worked in an office, I had no such luxury.

Actually it is higher than that at 2.8 to 10% depending on where you live in the USA... World wide it is much higher in some countries as haigh as 40%... But what is a Vegetarian... so many definitions make it challenging to correlate and quantify the data..

Here are some resources:

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=706957
http://kblog.lunchboxbunch.com/2009/02/w...on-is.html
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0...106422316/
http://www.happycow.net/blog/?p=133

I don't know about Texas! But where I live many are vegetarians.... And for the most part people are far too busy with their own lives to notice what you are buying at the supermarket or what you are cooking for dinner or eating for lunch... Unless of course you are saying in a loud voice you are a vegetarian and every one else in the market line is going to at least look over at you... and an errant child might ask what a vegetarian is---



Love--
fairyfarmgirl

[Monica]

Actually it is higher than that at 2.8 to 10% depending on where you live in the USA... World wide it is much higher in some countries as haigh as 40%... But what is a Vegetarian... so many definitions make it challenging to correlate and quantify the data..

From one of the sources you cited:

In the United States, an 2003 Harris Poll conducted for a vegetarian
organisation, found that 4-10% of the American population calls itself
"vegetarian". However, only 2.8% of the population never eats meat,
poultry, or fish/seafood.

The consensually accepted definition is one who never eats any meat, and this includes poultry and seafood. By this accepted definition, the reported number is 2.8% in the US.

This is a huge increase in the last 3 decades, when it was less than 1%. (I guess we're making a dent, heh. )

I don't think anyplace in the world has a 40% vegetarian rate. That sounds much too high. Even India, which has the highest % of vegetarians, is only 30% veg. at most, according to your sources:

The most concentrated population of vegetarians (and vegans) is in
India, where many avoid meat of religious reasons. However, because of
the nature of statistical information about India, it is not clear how
many really avoid meat, and how many do that out of principle
(religious or ideological) reasons, as opposed to those who cannot
afford meat. Because of the religious nature of vegetarianism, it is
also possible that people ?beautify? their answers at polls, and
occasional meat-eaters claim to be vegetarians. Most Indian
vegetarians are lacto-vegetarians (who drink milk but avoid eggs), and
this counts, according to U.S. Dept. of Agriculture data, to 20-30% of
the population. Large parts of the remaining 70% are only occasional
meat-eaters, and don?t eat animal products regularly (See: Wikipedia,
Vegetarianism, <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism>).

---

I don't know about Texas!

Texas can be a difficult place to live for vegetarians, especially in some areas. Austin is an oasis for vegetarians, and the other large cities have growing vegetarian communities. But it's very beef-oriented for the most part.

[fairyfarmgirl]

Rest Easy, Monica and Know that you are Loved. For most the issue of Classism is the issue that keeps them from eating consciously... as we all know in a crisis there is no time to reflect...

The other day I had a bit extra from my grocery money (I feed 5 people on 60.00 US Dollars a Week) So I had a little extra and I bought some canned vegetables that were msg and additive free and gave them to the food bank.

By providing foods for others that are good to eat and good for all is one way to raise awareness... not with fanfare or lengthy diatribes on how good it is to be a veg.... but by simply providing the food for those in need... Nonchalance goes a loooong way in changing that which is around you...

At my son's school he has taught all his school mates to bless their food... not because he was prophetising it... but by simply doing it with nonchalance... and then everyone wanted to do it... My little trend setter...

fairyfarmgirl

[Monica]

For most the issue of Classism is the issue that keeps them from eating consciously... as we all know in a crisis there is no time to reflect...

Are you referring to those who cannot afford to eat as they wish...who are in crisis mode? Yes, sadly that is a large % of the population.

The other day I had a bit extra from my grocery money (I feed 5 people on 60.00 US Dollars a Week) So I had a little extra and I bought some canned vegetables that were msg and additive free and gave them to the food bank.

Wonderful!

not with fanfare or lengthy diatribes on how good it is to be a veg.

In everyday life, I would agree! But this isn't everyday life...it's a discussion forum, where lengthy diatribes are what we do for fun.

[Brittany]

insert lengthy diatribe here....

[fairyfarmgirl]

insert lengthy diatribe here....

LOL!!! LOL!!

[Monica]

From Real Men Eat Plants

Most people are aware that adopting a meatless diet is not only good for the body, but good for the planet. It cannot be denied, however, that vegetarians and vegans often get stereotyped as granola-crunching hippies with a chip on their shoulder. Fortunately, the veggie lifestyle has become largely mainstream and accepted for what it is, a healthy and environmentally-friendly alternative.

For men, though, it is has been a bit harder to shake the stigma associated with adopting a plant-based diet. Often they are thought of as wimpy or feminine because animal protein supposedly makes you big and strong. However, “hegans,” are slowly coming out of their shells and embracing the lifestyle, shamelessly. Men are frequenting vegan restaurants and cooking vegan food for their friends, family and co-workers. The Boston Globe highlighted a number of these men in a recent article, but perhaps the most intriguing of them is Rip Esselstyn from Austin, TX. The firefighter and triathlete who helped his fellow firefighters to lower their cholesterol and get healthy with his “plant-strong” diet. In regards to his lifestyle, he said, “Sure there is a stigma attached to it, that it’s for yuppie, tree-hugging, emaciated weaklings. That is far from the truth. I like to say that real men eat plants.’’

Whether fully vegan or not, making small steps to incorporate more vegetables, fruit, protein-rich whole grains, legumes, and nuts, while reducing animal proteins, has been shown to reduce cholesterol and lower the risk for cancer and heart disease. It also is one of the most effective ways to reduce your carbon footprint.

To prove that vegetarians can be just as strong and manly as any meat-eater, check out professional Ironman triathlete Brendan Brazier, bodybuilding and gold-medalist ski jumper Andreas Cahling, wrestler Chris Campbell, NBA player Anthony Peeler, track star Carl Lewis and four-time Mr Universe Bill Pearl to name a few.

[Monica]

Today I was responsible for the unnecessary death of a living creature who fought hard for his life.

Not by intention, but accidentally. The death was intentional. At the time I thought it was necessary, but later found out it wasn't necessary. It was an honest mistake, made according to my best judgement at the time. Nevertheless, I feel sad.

I live in Texas, where we have all 4 venomous snakes found in North America. We have found rattlesnakes in our yard about 20 times in as many years. (We live on the edge of town.) I have lost at least 10 cats to rattlesnakes over the years, and managed to saved a dog or cat from snakebite several other times (along with an exorbitant vet bill).

Last night, one of my beloved cats was playing with a snake. In the dark, it looked like a rattlesnake. So I was confronted with my own hypothetical situation about whom to save, the cat or the snake. The choice was clear. We killed the snake.

This morning, in the light of day, we realized that it was only a harmless garter snake. (They have similar markings.)

If a bee or wasp gets into my house, I don't kill it. I catch it and release it outside. There's no reason to kill it. I chose to kill this snake because I knew that if I didn't, and it had turned out to be a rattlesnake, it would kill my cat. I could live with that because it was necessary at the time. But the fact that this harmless snake got killed unnecessarily bothers me a lot.

I know there are some people who would be very indignant at what we did. There are ways to capture snakes and release them into the wild, so they needn't be killed. I don't have the skills or resources to do that. I would gladly take the time to learn how to safely catch rattlesnakes, IF I could be assured that the place I was releasing them to would not pose a risk to anyone else. But there's no such guarantee. I could not set a deadly snake free out in the country, because a farmer's child might be outside playing. So we did what we had to do, at the time.

It was the unnecessary death that bothered me. The mistake.

[thefool]

It was the unnecessary death that bothered me. The mistake.

Forgive the cat, snake and most importantly yourself and move forward. And reflect on the lesson it provided you and the catalyst that was offered. Just by the process of breathing, walking on earth and farming, we cause death of small organism and living beings. In my opinion we have to understand it and bless it and keep moving forward to more love...