Veggies by Force...

[thefool]

I eat what resonates with me.


The real question then becomes what resonates with you and your body? For some it will be Veggies... for others they will be consummate omnivores.

fairyfarmgirl

fairyfarmgirl

Me too. And it keeps changes with the needs of the body. The body will tell you what it needs.

---

This person had health problems, but to say that vegetarian diet is not healthy for anyone is like taking any random meat eater with diabetes, heart disease, cancer, or whatever, and saying that their own particular diet caused all their problems therefore no one should ever eat meat. MOST meat-eaters have myriad health problems, and so do some vegetarians. But, statistically, vegetarians are healthier across the board, and that is an indisputable fact. There will always be those who, whether vegetarian or not, have health issues. There are many factors to health. Being a vegetarian doesn't guarantee health.

Also we don't have to be completely Vegetarian or completely Meat eaters. The balance is what is desired. For each person it is a different. You can have a majority of your food as vegetarian and then eat some animal protein for protein intake. Again even the definition of vegetarian changes from culture to culture. For some people it includes dairy and eggs. For some it is strict plant only food. For some others it is plant only but no roots, as it is considered violent to unroot a plant to eat the roots. Still for some others fish is aprt of vegetarian diet...

Unless you are doing it for religious or ethical reasons, listen to your body's needs and strike a balance between the veggies and meat...

[charlie2012]

My interest for what i eat has always been high, since my mother enjoys making food and is quite the chef. Naturally i've been interested in what i consume for a long time, the recent year avoiding most additives and toxins they put in our food.

I started eating more vegetarian food about 2 months ago. Meat used to be the main component of almost every meal i ate before (except most desserts). I now eat meat if people offer it to me, or if it would otherwise be thrown away, but when i choose what to eat i go vegetarian 95% of the time (polarizing to the 4th veggie-density).

JoshC, i recommend lentils with different indian spices! You'll get full in no time! Indian cuisine is so awesome

[artichoke]

...
P.S. Monica -- I know that feeling you described so well!! Meat doesn't look like food to me anymore. I can scan a buffet table and it just looks like a bunch of blocks around the "real food." Very strange phenomenon, indeed.

The buffets must hate you. As I'm sure you know, veggies cook down much more than meat. So the veggies on the buffet table are more expensive to provide than the meats.

As for pesticides -- don't worry, if they are just on the outside of the plant. Whole Foods has organic vegetable wash that works quite well. We're still meat eaters, but we only buy organic meat. As for fruits and veggies, organic is often too expensive, but we wash them well with veg. wash. Leafy stuff too.

[origin]

When I do eat it has become a spiritual exercise for me.

Now, I’m not complaining. I’ve been wanting to do this for a long time, but it’s always been so hard, and now suddenly it’s like someone re-routed all the wires in my head. The little voices in my head have been urging me (somewhat vehemently sometimes), to become vegetarian for a good while now, and now I get the sense that they’re saying: “Okay, it’s time now. Time to get serious. You’ve had time to adjust and now you need to take this seriously because big stuff is coming up and this will help you.” It almost feels like someone else is controlling my mind in the area of food, but not in a bad way.


Has anyone else experienced stuff like this?

This is exactly what is happening to me now too, ahktu! I've been a vegetarian on and off since I was 14. I received a lot of criticism and pressure from my family (very avid meat lovers) to stop. I gave in to that at the time, but when I went to college, I switched back and was even vegan for a while. My boyfriend and I both changed our diets (for him reading The China Study was a catalyst) and I had chosen to do so because of a feeling in my heart---it felt wrong and I described it as "barbaric" to my family when I was much younger.

After another short period of meat-eating chosen simply because my partner had chosen to (he's a competitive athlete and found that he was not getting enough iron and suffered a particular condition because of this), I've chosen to go back to being a vegetarian. This time it stems from a deeper spiritual place. I've noticed that my subtle vibration changed when I made this choice and that eating meat brings a heaviness to my consciousness. I do not feel good physically, mentally and spiritually. Between switches in diet before, I never noticed this difference, but more recently I have become much more sensitive to my vibration and how my choices of sustenance alter it. I am also very conscious now (and I never was before) of saying a prayer over anything I eat or drink. Somehow, a shift inside occurs and it just ripples through everything.

Love and Light,
origin

[Brittany]

So I decided to try out bein' a strict vegetarian (as per liferegenerator @ youtube) for this weekend, starting today. It seems kinda hard, do u guys just eat nonstop? I'm still hungry and I've eaten a ton

To be honest, I barely eat, anyway. I don’t get hungry nearly as often as I used to. For me the highest difficulty was psychological. My brain was used to finding meats and complex carbs the most pleasurable type of food to indulge, and to suddenly go without it caused some mental frustration. I’ve almost cried a few times because I was really craving meat and I literally couldn’t chew it. It was like the whole thing turned to ash in my mouth. I guess I’m fortunate to have whatever force is contributing to this change in lifestyle to back me. After a few weeks I’m used to it and don’t feel so deprived. I no longer feel like I’m on a diet…this just feels natural.

I still eat fish on occasion, btw. Also, I try to eat a lot of beans and whole grains to get carbs and proteins. If you’re eating nothing but apples and carrots, you really are going to get hungry because your body isn’t going to get all the nutrients it needs. Nuts and avocados have a lot of the healthy fats that your body needs. Also, taking a natural multi-vitamin might help.

[AnthroHeart]

For me, it's the expensive Starbucks coffee that is psychological. Their cream coffees taste great, and I tend to get somewhat addicted to their flavor. Like once or twice a week or so.

[fairyfarmgirl]

Everyone is always dissing Starbucks... but where in the corporate world can you go to purchase a cup of coffee in a recycable cup that is FAIR TRADE coffee not harvested by little kids and organic so the harvesters are not sprayed with herbacides and pesticides and you can actually purchase and consume foods that are made with whole food ingredients.

I have found their coffee to be on par as per cost as Dunkin Donuts which is not free trade or organic by any stretch of the imagination. Yet the cost is nearly the same as Starbucks and served in a non-recyclable disposable cup made from sterofoam and if you eat the food chances are it is laden with human hair from china (got love the execution trade) and cornsyrup and a whole host of diet diatrabe baddies.

So, if I am going to have a coffee to go while I am out and about it will be Starbucks or I will do without.

fairyfarmgirl

[thefool]

For me, it's the expensive Starbucks coffee that is psychological. Their cream coffees taste great, and I tend to get somewhat addicted to their flavor. Like once or twice a week or so.

What do you normally order? I usually get no foam soy latte. Anytime I need to bring my system back to order, a well made Starbucks Soy Latte at correct temperature is a good bet Actually Soy Chai at Panera is pretty good as well. I have to get it made extra strong with extra chai...

[Brittany]

I like Starbucks' apple cider. I hate coffee to begin with, so I guess I just got lucky there. I can't handle much of anything in the way of caffiene. But yes, Starbucks seems to be a lot more economically and ecologically conscious that a great deal of other companies. Still, if you're actually just trying to lose weight or something, a lot of their stuff is a bit fattening, so be careful what you order or there'll be calories spewing all over the place.

[fairyfarmgirl]

Anyone craving Peanut butter and Natural Preserves sandwiches? Seems to be all we have eaten the last 3 days... other than Loaded Veggie Nachos last night with organic salsa... Tonight it is Mashed Potatoes and Eggs over Easy with a simple green salad on the side. I make a modified Thousand Island Dressing... It consists of 3tbs organic Ketchup, 1/3 cup Yougurt, 1tbs Olive oil, 1tbs Cider Vinager, pinch of SeaSalt and organic relish or chopped up pickle and 1 little paper packet of stevia. Mix it all up and it is terrific on salad, veggie burgers, mashed potatoes etc. The kids and hubby loves this dressing on salad.

fairyfarmgirl

[Lorna]

peanut butter on lightly toasted granary bread is my thing for breakfast at the moment
i've never every understood the US peanut butter and jam thing though
i'm going to be making leek and potato soup later, with lots of fresh black pepper and wholegrain mustard stirred through at the end - yummy

[Steppingfeet]

peanut butter on lightly toasted granary bread is my thing for breakfast at the moment
i've never every understood the US peanut butter and jam thing though
i'm going to be making leek and potato soup later, with lots of fresh black pepper and wholegrain mustard stirred through at the end - yummy

Lorna, you never understood the peanut butter and jam thing? What is this blasphemy!?

: ) This is one of my favorite sandwiches, especially with the bread toasted and butter prior to being made. Though I don't use traditional supermarket peanut butter and jelly. Rather, my pb is all natural (peanuts only) and my jelly is fruit juice sweetened only.

I think it was Ra who said that it is necessary that the "peanut butter and jam thing" be understood in order to be harvestable.

You may want to reconsider your distortions regarding the pb&j.

; )

[fairyfarmgirl]

Me too! I use naturally ground peanuts only peanut butter and natural all fruit preserves on whole grain bread that is corn free! The sweetness of the preserves offsets the stickyness of the peanutbutter! I also like peanutbutter and maple syrup sandwiches or peanut butter and honey sandwiches. I abhor peanut butter and fluff (a spreadable cornsyrup marshmallow type of stuff) which in Mainer, Maine USA speak is called a fluffernutta... Ayah!

Love--

fairyfarmgirl

[Lorna]

peanut butter and hazelnut chocolate spread on the other hand.... mmmm.... lol!

[JoshC]

^Nutella? That stuff is tasty :p

I had a similar experience just now, ahktu. I was gonna make some sort of egg dish like an omelet and I couldn't eat the eggs! I had them out and hadn't even gotten the pan out when I looked at them and thought "damn it, i wanted those." Lol. I left the 10 eggs left in the 18-egg carton arranged in a pattern that says "HI" for the funsies

I think part of it was the compulsion to find meats to eat, now that I'm over it I've found out that I don't want to eat meat for ethical reasons. Vegetarians +1! (though I'm not like liferegenerator@youtube, I'm still eating all the whole grains and beans n stuff)

[Monica]

Also we don't have to be completely Vegetarian or completely Meat eaters. The balance is what is desired. For each person it is a different.

I agree that each person should seek their own guidance as to what is appropriate for them at this point in their lives. As shown in this thread, people often change their dietary tastes when they have a major spiritual breakthru.

I would like to point out, though, that 'balance' doesn't necessarily mean a middle-ground between being vegetarian and eating meat. I've been told before (by meat-eaters) that I was 'too extreme' and 'not balanced' because I chose to not eat meat. I was told that a 'balance' meant eating meat in moderation. Although I respect that this might be appropriate for others, I didn't feel it was their place to dictate to me what was 'balance' for me. My point is that the idea of 'balance' need not necessarily include meat at all.

You can have a majority of your food as vegetarian and then eat some animal protein for protein intake.

I agree that being 'mostly' vegetarian and just reducing meat intake can do a world of good. If everyone on the planet just reduced their meat consumption by 50%, it would have a dramatic impact on the environment! It needn't be an all-or-nothing proposition. Just cutting back on meat can improve one's health.

It's not necessary to eat meat for protein, however. Protein is found in nearly all foods, even fruit. The key is to eat a wide variety of foods and to eat enough calories to feel satisfied. As long as the person is eating healthy, natural whole foods, they will get ample protein without meat.

Again even the definition of vegetarian changes from culture to culture. For some people it includes dairy and eggs. For some it is strict plant only food. For some others it is plant only but no roots, as it is considered violent to unroot a plant to eat the roots. Still for some others fish is aprt of vegetarian diet...

Well, to be honest, this is a bit of a pet peeve among vegetarians. Just as Christians have designated certain criteria (such as believing that the Bible is the word of God, Jesus died for mankind's sins, etc.) to be considered a Christian, so too have vegetarians agreed on basic criteria to be considered vegetarian. The consensual definition of 'vegetarian' is one who doesn't eat anything that ever had a face: ie., any animal, whether that be red meat, poultry, or fish. All vegetarian societies that I know of agree on this definition.

Those who choose to take it a step further and avoid eggs and dairy are called 'vegans.'

Those who eat occasional chicken, fish, or other meat are not vegetarians by definition, though their diet might be mostly vegetarian. My husband is one of those. We never have any meat in the house, but he has a seafood dish at a Thai restaurant about once a week, and chicken once in a blue moon (maybe 3-4 times a year). We refer to him as being 95% vegetarian. I'm thrilled that he eats so little meat and would never judge him for it. But he would never call himself a vegetarian, even though his diet is mostly vegetarian.

Unless you are doing it for religious or ethical reasons, listen to your body's needs and strike a balance between the veggies and meat...

Agreed! For me personally, I am vegetarian for health, spiritual, ethical, and environmental reasons.

What if someone wants to be a vegetarian for spiritual/ethical reasons but their body still craves meat? In that case, I would suggest getting better educated on the vegetarian diet. Their body is obviously lacking something, but it can be resolved in other ways besides eating meat. Try eating free-range eggs (they're from an animal but nothing died). Try doing green smoothies (lots of protein and very satisfying). Try eating more calories (you might just need more volume of food!). Try adding more of the healthy fats like nuts, seeds, and avocados. Try adding some superfoods (like flower pollen, bluegreen algae, sprouts, etc.). You may find that you no longer crave the meat, once your needs are being met. If that still doesn't work, visit a slaughterhouse.

---

I only discovered the Law of One about a year ago, but I've been a spiritual seeker for most of my life. As such, I long ago had reached certain spiritual conclusions about a range of topics, including vegetarianism. I found that in most cases, the LOO didn't replace those old conclusions, so much as it expanded upon the truths I had already realized deep within my being.

I have a deep connection with the natural world and the animal kingdom. So, naturally, I spent a lot of time thinking about ourselves in relation to other animals and plants in the context of vegetarianism, sexuality, aggression, etc.

At that time, long before I heard of the "Density of Choice", I came to the conclusion that being incarnate as a human being was a great gift because we had the power to *choose.*

That is, there are many animals that kill for every meal, but there is no darkness in this act for they are merely following their instincts. By the same token, there are many other animals that are vegetarian by nature, but they deserve no praise for this for they did not choose this path, either. You also see animals that devote themselves to one mate by instinct and others that breed in a random fashion with hundreds of partners over time. Some animals band together in packs, some remain solitary. Some are peaceful by instinct, others aggressive. However, these behaviors are directed by instinct and genetics, not choice.

It finally occurred to me that humans are special because we have a CHOICE. We can subsist on meat or on vegetables and still be healthy. We can be monogamous or promiscuous and propogate the species just fine. We can make war or we can choose peaceful resolution to our difficulties. In every case, humans are exceptional because of our ability to choose. Also, as we become more aware, our responsibility grows. There is comparatively little karma generated in negative acts performed in ignorance. But once we begin to awaken, we are held to a higher standard.

To be clear, though I am vegetarian, I do believe one can progress spiritually without being a strict vegetarian. (I mean, really, look at the Dalai Lama!). But it DOES help you -- refraining from ingesting the fear, the pain, the hormones (natural and added), and the adrenaline helps you raise your vibrational state. For me, personally, it is also a way to honor my spiritual younger Brothers and Sisters. While it is not a strictly necessary to be vegetarian for everyone in order to follow the STO path, it is a very important part of my own STO path and a topic that I believe any spiritual seeker would do well to at least contemplate.

I guess what I'm saying is that we are animals in the physical sense, but we are of a higher density and are therefore on a different path. At our core we are all one and it can be useful to draw comparisons, but a distinction must be drawn. What we must do to evolve further is not the same as it is for 2nd density beings, and what is OK for them is not necessarily OK for us.

Wow, Pablisimo, what an amazing post!!! Word for word, I agree 100%. You have articulated what I had wanted to say but lacked the words.

I'm finding participation in this thread rather challenging. I agree that it's "not strictly necessary to be vegetarian" in order to follow the STO path. We all know lots of beautiful, loving people who eat meat.

At the same time, I will be honest here and admit that I struggle with how to converse with spiritually-oriented people on the meat issue. The reason is that, while I respect the choice of others when no one is being hurt, my own spirituality makes a distinction when there are victims involved, and I feel compelled to speak up on behalf of the victims. How, then, do I speak up on behalf of the animals while still remaining non-judgmental towards my friends who either are ignorant of animal suffering, or, for whatever reason, justify it?

In respect to the overall lighthearted tone of this thread, I will continue my seriously ponderous (and potentially volatile) thoughts in another thread. If anyone would like to explore further the discussion about the spiritual implications of eating animals, please join me in the In regards to eating meat thread.

[Pablísimo]

Well, to be honest, this is a bit of a pet peeve among vegetarians. Just as Christians have designated certain criteria (such as believing that the Bible is the word of God, Jesus died for mankind's sins, etc.) to be considered a Christian, so too have vegetarians agreed on basic criteria to be considered vegetarian. The consensual definition of 'vegetarian' is one who doesn't eat anything that ever had a face: ie., any animal, whether that be red meat, poultry, or fish. All vegetarian societies that I know of agree on this definition.

Those who choose to take it a step further and avoid eggs and dairy are called 'vegans.'

Those who eat occasional chicken, fish, or other meat are not vegetarians by definition, though their diet might be mostly vegetarian.

I agree 100% with your definitions and also that it is a bit of a pet peeve for me as well. I mean, really, eat what you wish but get the terminology right and please label things appropriately for those to whom it matters! By the way, the name I use for people that eat chicken or fish, even in small amounts, but are otherwise vegetarian is "meat minimalists."

Wow, Pablisimo, what an amazing post!!! Word for word, I agree 100%. You have articulated what I had wanted to say but lacked the words.

You know, I have been reading these forums rather much lately though my posting has been minimal. One thing that has struck me is I have been surprised at how much I find my thought patterns resonating with yours about various topics. Out of curiosity, what is your astrological makeup, if you don't mind me asking? I'm a Pisces Sun / Capricorn moon / Leo Ascendant if you're into that. And INFJ in Jungian typology.

I'm finding participation in this thread rather challenging.

I agree that it's "not strictly necessary to be vegetarian" in order to follow the STO path. We all know lots of beautiful, loving people who eat meat.

At the same time, I will be honest here and admit that I struggle with how to converse with spiritually-oriented people on the meat issue. The reason is that, while I respect the choice of others when no one is being hurt, my own spirituality makes a distinction when there are victims involved, and I feel compelled to speak up on behalf of the victims. How, then, do I speak up on behalf of the animals while still remaining non-judgmental towards my friends who either are ignorant of animal suffering, or, for whatever reason, justify it?

Amen to that, sister!! I too have been trying to tread carefully in this particular thread. Honestly, I have struggled with these kinds of conversations for years. I find it difficult to balance and moderate my views about this and the concept of spiritual people who do not embrace the vegetarian path has been a source of much soul-searching for me. Though it feels so black and white to me, I recognize the issue is complex for some others and I try to remember to have a sense of spiritual humility about a topic that I feel passionately about.

That is why I counseled akhtu early in this thread as a new vegetarian to be gentle and considerate when speaking to non-vegetarians. For some reason discussions of meat eating brings out guilt, anger, and hurt feelings very easily.

I must ruefully admit that I've had more than my share of conversations about meat eating go sour in the past, and I do not feel that they really helped anyone. I am actively working on letting go of my attachment to vegetarianism as a "spiritual litmus" test and am trying to teach myself to be more nonjudgmental.

I very nearly crossed my own personal line about forcefully sharing my views on vegetarianism with that post you replied to. I finally only justified it to myself by the rationalization that akhtu had recently become a vegetarian and hopefully my words would strengthen her resolve and banish some doubt about "if it's ok for animals to do it...". Even so, I almost deleted the comment because I was afraid it would trigger anger or guilt in others and that it came off as a bit "preachy".

I was more successful in other parts of the thread....

When I read the comment about buffets hating me because veggies are more expensive than meats, I was sorely tempted to write up some hasty response pointing out the horribly skewed economics of the food industry due to factory farming. Meat may be cheaper than fruits and vegetables in a monetary sense, but it certainly isn't cheaper to produce in terms of actual resources expended and its production has far worse consequences for the environment.

Then, when I read the suggestion of finding a balance between meat and veggies, I thought the idea was patently absurd. To a person like me, who does indeed believe in balance, the idea of finding a balance between meat and veggies is like suggesting finding a balance between child molestation and playing with your kids on the playground!! It just doesn't compute!

Ah but if I had done so I would have been reinforcing my old patterns of thought -- the ones that I am trying to work past. Though it could be argued I have just aired these very same thoughts, I have hopefully done so in a context that I sincerely hope comes across thoughtfully and lovingly, as that is my intention. Passionate and judgmental comments are not the kind of words that I want to use with my brothers and sisters who have a different view! To have done so would only sow the seeds of discord instead of finding common ground and shared spiritual values. The fact that thefool clarified that he was exempting those who choose vegetarianism for ethical or religious reasons proved to me that he is not one-sided on the issue at all. And I assume artichoke knows good and well about the economics of food production in this modern age and meant her comment in a lighthearted way. I have read several insightful, loving posts by thefool and artichoke and do not for a moment believe them to be anything less than great souls doing the best they can in this confusing plane of existence. Even so, I truly believe I would have been perceived as more than a little rude if I'd let my true thoughts be known so boldly.

I listen to my heart, to my intuition. The Creator whispers in my ear and tells me that the vegetarian path is right..... for me. I feel it in every fiber of my being, in the very depths of my soul that I cannot and will not and should not eat animal flesh for any reason whatsoever. I know reincarnation exists and nothing is lost, I understand that, but I simply cannot be any other way. I am convinced only of my own path, each must find their own way. I am only too aware of just how ignorant I am, ultimately. I look at beautiful souls like Carla Rueckert or the Dalai Lama, or even some of these fine people on the forum, and they are not vegetarian but in many ways have achieved a higher level of spiritual greatness than me. I wish I could understand how they can be so spiritual and yet eat animal flesh. I don't believe I ever will, though, and I'm finding peace with that. Just because I "can't figure it out" doesn't mean that what they are doing is wrong in a grand, cosmic sense. I find that focusing on these things stimulates feelings of separation in me and that is not what I am striving towards. So, I'm working on accepting that I DON'T understand and probably never will, but I will content myself with removing the log from my own eye and stop worrying about the speck in my neighbor's! And despite my vegetarianism, I am not innocent -- I have taken life accidentally and intentionally in my years in 3D life. I must do what my heart tells me in this area, but I pray that I will be granted the wisdom of when to speak and when to be silent on this issue. That I will somehow find a way to stand up for my brutalized and victimized animal brethren, without sowing discord and disharmony among my human brothers and sisters. I have found a peace in leaving this topic in the Creator's hands... following my heart and sense of ethics, while trying hard to respect others that have a different path. One common ground I have found with meat eaters is that they almost always at least agree that factory farming and the treatment of animals raised for food needs to be improved. Perhaps that is a better area of focus than on a pure discussion of vegetarian versus meat eating.

By the way, I'm not implying you have crossed any lines or said anything judgmental, I'm just sharing my inner struggle on this with you as I suspect it will resonate.

This topic is so very hard for me. I pray for compassion and wisdom and to be nonjudgmental. How to overcome the paradox of being nonjudgmental about something you personally feel is completely wrong? I really don't know! I really don't, but I am trying to understand. I counsel everyone who eats meat only to give gratitude to the soul that has given its life for their sustenance. I have resigned myself that I will never have all the answers nor completely understand this topic and all of its ramifications. I will simply continue to Be the way I feel I must Be, and try to honor both my human family as well as my younger brothers and sisters in the animal kingdom. For me, THAT is the balance I am striving towards.

Love to all

In respect to the overall lighthearted tone of this thread, I will continue my seriously ponderous (and potentially volatile) thoughts in another thread. If anyone would like to explore further the discussion about the spiritual implications of eating animals, please join me in the In regards to eating meat thread.

I would like to continue this conversation in that thread... as you rightly noted this thread has become more lighthearted and perhaps these musings are disruptive to that spirit. Good conversation though!!

[fairyfarmgirl]

A true vegetarian eats no animal products. This would make eggs and cheese and milk a big NO! I am not a vegetarian for the reasons. I am not an herbivore. I am an omnivore. I require Vitamin B6 and Vitamin B12 in order to exist and be spiritual. These vitamins come from raw milk, raw butter, raw cheese and are in eggs and meats.

Balance is key. For me the path of the herbivore is fraught with disarray for me. What happens if I accidently inhale an insect or eat a bug that is living in the plant. When I was vegetarian this just was too much for me and I stopped eating all together. Not really conducive to life is it? LOL

I wish you well on your paths as Vegetarians. Balance for me is key and has been found... it involves eating eggs, cheese and milk and being a meat minimalist at times when I feel I need the amino acids within the meat.

Killing? That is a completely different subject. Simply by being here as Humans every breath we take we are creating violence and killing something. Every time we get into our car the chances of killing are high... Violence by its core definition is in direct conflict to living.

fairyfarmgirl

[thefool]

A true vegetarian eats no animal products. This would make eggs and cheese and milk a big NO! I am not a vegetarian for the reasons. I am not an herbivore. I am an omnivore. I require Vitamin B6 and Vitamin B12 in order to exist and be spiritual. These vitamins come from raw milk, raw butter, raw cheese and are in eggs and meats.

Balance is key. For me the path of the herbivore is fraught with disarray for me. What happens if I accidently inhale an insect or eat a bug that is living in the plant. When I was vegetarian this just was too much for me and I stopped eating all together. Not really conducive to life is it? LOL

I wish you well on your paths as Vegetarians. Balance for me is key and has been found... it involves eating eggs, cheese and milk and being a meat minimalist at times when I feel I need the amino acids within the meat.

Killing? That is a completely different subject. Simply by being here as Humans every breath we take we are creating violence and killing something. Every time we get into our car the chances of killing are high... Violence by its core definition is in direct conflict to living.

fairyfarmgirl

Thank you. As you have saved me the trouble of typing. My thoughts exactly...

I would just reiterate that balance is the key. As there is a danger in making vegetarianism a religion and dogma. This may further lead to judgement of others and feeling inherent superiority based upon the food choices...Like I said before it is a personal choice and each decides what they need to eat in their life...

[Pablísimo]

A true vegetarian eats no animal products. This would make eggs and cheese and milk a big NO! I am not a vegetarian for the reasons. I am not an herbivore. I am an omnivore. I require Vitamin B6 and Vitamin B12 in order to exist and be spiritual. These vitamins come from raw milk, raw butter, raw cheese and are in eggs and meats.

Terminology again, here. Vegetarians can eat eggs or dairy...that is ovo/lacto vegetarianism. Vegans are those who choose to ingest no animal products. Vegans won't even eat honey. I personally have no problem with animals being involved in my lunch, as long as they are still around to live and love after lunch is over!

Balance is key. For me the path of the herbivore is fraught with disarray for me. What happens if I accidently inhale an insect or eat a bug that is living in the plant. When I was vegetarian this just was too much for me and I stopped eating all together. Not really conducive to life is it? LOL

For me, that is part of 3rd density life. You can't help but take life intentionally or unintentionally. I just try to minimize that taking of life and nothing more. I don't always succeed, but I do my best. If I eat a bug unintentionally, or if I step on one accidentally, I forgive myself, wish that creature's spirit well and try to avoid it happening again whenever I am able. It doesn't mean, however, that just because these unintentional things happen that I will ignore the effect my intentional daily dietary choices have on other beings.

You know, I have even injured bugs while trying to save them. These experiences made me more careful, but ultimately it's about doing the best I can while still maintaining a practical sense of life. You can't be so extreme that you don't walk or breathe to avoid the taking of life. However, I believe you minimize your contribution to animal suffering and raise your vibrations by choosing a vegetarian path.

That is what balance in this arena means to me. Minimizing the taking of life, and minimizing the suffering to other beings I cause, while trying to avoid getting fanatical or judgmental and yet still recognizing that you just cannot live in 3rd density without doing it some of the time.

I would just reiterate that balance is the key. As there is a danger in making vegetarianism a religion and dogma. This may further lead to judgement of others and feeling inherent superiority based upon the food choices...Like I said before it is a personal choice and each decides what they need to eat in their life...

Your words are so true. I agree completely, and that judgment of others and superiority are issues that I have struggled with in the past. You are right to remind us all to avoid such ways of being. And it is indeed a personal choice. I truly meant no disrespect to others who choose a different path, I was just sharing my inner struggle with Monica. I really am trying to do my best to respect others and yet remain true to my ideals while maintaining humility. Again, this is my balance: avoiding turning it into a religion or dogma and yet following my heart. And I still believe that vegetarianism is not a requirement for a spiritual life, I only state that it is right for me. You know, these kinds of difficult conversations are exactly why I generally try to tread lightly on the topic. I don't wish to spread any more discord, so I suggest we get back to the recipes

Love to all

[Monica]

A true vegetarian eats no animal products.

Well, I'd rather not quibble over terminology. This just shows that people use terms in different ways. Another member might now post that vegetarians can eat chicken too! Who gets to decide who's right?

I don't play golf. If I am speaking to a person who plays golf, I will defer to his/her use of golf terms.

I've belonged to a number of vegetarian societies over the years and all of them welcomed lacto-ovo vegetarians. I am just offering the consensually agreed-upon definition. The term vegan was coined to differentiate between vegetarians who consume eggs and dairy and those who don't.

I require Vitamin B6 and Vitamin B12 in order to exist and be spiritual. These vitamins come from raw milk, raw butter, raw cheese and are in eggs and meats.

That is my point precisely. Since these nutrients are found in abundance in eggs and dairy, why kill an animal unnecessarily? Why eat meat when the nutrients can be provided in organically-produced eggs and dairy, in which no animal suffered? Why not reduce the suffering if possible?

That's what I truly don't understand.

What happens if I accidently inhale an insect or eat a bug that is living in the plant.

Well, that would be the same as if we accidentally hit a dog or a squirrel with our car. It's an accident. I just don't follow the logic of intentionally killing dogs and squirrels just because I might occasionally kill one on the road.

I wish you well on your paths as Vegetarians. Balance for me is key and has been found... it involves eating eggs, cheese and milk and being a meat minimalist at times when I feel I need the amino acids within the meat.

OK. I wish you well as well! I hope that we can discuss this without anyone feeling offended. We vegetarians have valid points and questions that we would like to discuss without any judgement. I hope that we can explore this topic with the spirit of love and understanding of different points of view.

Killing? That is a completely different subject. Simply by being here as Humans every breath we take we are creating violence and killing something. Every time we get into our car the chances of killing are high... Violence by its core definition is in direct conflict to living.

Ah, this is very enlightening! :idea: So are you saying that every death is an act of violence?

I find this confusing. I don't consider a natural death or an accidental death to be violence. If a driver accidentally runs over a child playing in the street, I don't consider that violence. To me, violence is the intentional act of harming another entity.

Stepping on a bug for no reason, just because it's a bug, is violence. Accidentally hitting a bug with your windshield isn't violence.

Breathing microorganisms in the air isn't violence. We were designed to breathe the air, and we must breathe the air. And, how do we know the microorganisms are even being killed, anyway? Being swept up into our nostrils might just be part of their normal lifecycle.

But, aside from those with specific medical conditions requiring the use of meat, most of us don't need to eat animals. We know the animals suffer. Therefore, how can the killing of animals unnecessarily be viewed as anything but violence?

I truly mean no judgement here. I am truly confused about this. I truly don't understand the inconsistency. I have seen my dad butcher chickens and I have seen what goes on in slaughterhouses. I don't think most people have any clue just how much heaviness all those millions of violent deaths each day are adding to this planet's pain. It's sad enough that humans continue to slaughter one another in warzones. Why must we add to it when there are peaceful alternatives?

---

As there is a danger in making vegetarianism a religion and dogma. This may further lead to judgement of others and feeling inherent superiority based upon the food choices...

Do you think this is what we are doing? I am curious. If you only knew how much we are trying to not do that!

I agree that it's very easy to get into dogma and judgement, with any personal choice. I have definitely been guilty of that in the past. When I first became a vegetarian, I was like a newly-converted religious person! I turned a lot of people off!

I don't do that anymore. I no longer approach strangers in restaurants and tell them they are being cruel by ordering that steak.

On the other hand, don't we vegetarians have just as much right to express our views as those who eat meat? Why must we feel anxious about expressing our views? Why are Pablisimo and I so nervous about expressing what we really feel? Why can't we be accepted for our views, just as we are expected to accept others for theirs?

I'm not saying that we aren't being accepted. I'm just voicing some concerns. I am getting the impression that we're walking a fine line here, and the pressure is on us, the vegetarians, to suppress our true feelings lest anyone be offended. In other words, if anyone is offended, it will likely be viewed as the fault of the vegetarians, for being so self-righteous. Yet, this thread is about being vegetarian! If we cannot speak openly here in this thread, where then can we express ourselves?

The reverse doesn't seem to be true. In other threads, in which the eating of animals was discussed, the vegetarians could have easily been offended. I personally found some of the discussion very distasteful, but I kept my feelings to myself. Somehow, I didn't think that those discussing meat would have understood why a vegetarian might feel offended. It just seems like a double standard. So many times have I experienced people getting offended by my mere presence. For example, I'd be in a restaurant and ask the waiter what they had that was vegetarian, and immediately the jokes would start flying. Or sometimes people would immediately start defending their meat choices, when I never said a single word about what they were eating!

Why do people tend to get defensive about eating meat? And why is the burden on the vegetarians to watch out for the meat eaters' feelings?

These are just musings that I have wondered for a long time. I see it happening, to some degree, even here, in a community that is so loving and courteous.

I could just not mention these thoughts. But by suppressing them, they are still in the mass consciousness. If we can't reconcile our differences here, what hope is there for the rest of the world? I have confidence that our love and compassion for one another will prevail!!! I am baring my soul here, NOT to judge anyone, but to express some of my deep feelings on this issue. I hope that others will understand and that we can all reach out to one another in love, without judgement.

[Monica]

I mean, really, eat what you wish but get the terminology right and please label things appropriately for those to whom it matters!

Exactly!!!

One thing that has struck me is I have been surprised at how much I find my thought patterns resonating with yours about various topics.

Yeah, I noticed that too! Maybe we're from the same planet!

Out of curiosity, what is your astrological makeup, if you don't mind me asking? I'm a Pisces Sun / Capricorn moon / Leo Ascendant if you're into that.

Taurus Sun, Gemini Rising, Sag Moon. I'm married to a Pisces, and have had a lot of Pisceans in my life.

And INFJ in Jungian typology.

I don't know anything about that.

I too have been trying to tread carefully in this particular thread.

This is my point. Why must the burden of 'treading carefully' fall on us?

Honestly, I have struggled with these kinds of conversations for years. I find it difficult to balance and moderate my views about this and the concept of spiritual people who do not embrace the vegetarian path has been a source of much soul-searching for me. Though it feels so black and white to me, I recognize the issue is complex for some others and I try to remember to have a sense of spiritual humility about a topic that I feel passionately about.

Me too!

That is why I counseled akhtu early in this thread as a new vegetarian to be gentle and considerate when speaking to non-vegetarians.

I recently did the same with a friend who became a vegetarian. She works at a grocery store and had recently been having some intense spiritual revelations. She began feeling ONE with the entire planet, and developed compassion whereas it had formerly been difficult for her. Suddenly, one day when she was at work and had to get some meat out of the freezer, she became acutely aware of the body parts all around her. She suddenly felt as though she were in a morgue. She no longer saw the meat wrapped in plastic as food, but as body parts of living, sentient beings...beings with faces, personalities and souls....beings who felt pain and who shrieked in terror when slaughtered.

She felt such an intense impact of compassion and pain that she burst into tears and could no longer continue at work that day. She struggled with it because she needed the job. She asked to be transferred and they sent her to work in the deli. But that wasn't safe either. They were selling live lobsters. They dipped the lobsters in boiling water, and turned on a machine at that instant so that the customers wouldn't hear the lobsters scream. But my friend heard the screams, and the screams haunted her.

She is still working at that store. Each day is a torment for her. I advised her to try to raise awareness one person at a time, and this is what she is doing. Rather than storm up to a woman wearing a fur coat, she now gently asks her is she is aware of the pain that animal endured. Rather than accuse people of being insensitive and cruel, she now tries to tactfully and gently introduce them to what they are doing. I reminded her how recently it was that she too was oblivious to the suffering.

For some reason discussions of meat eating brings out guilt, anger, and hurt feelings very easily.

Why are feelings of guilt to be avoided? Doesn't guilt serve a purpose?

I must ruefully admit that I've had more than my share of conversations about meat eating go sour in the past, and I do not feel that they really helped anyone. I am actively working on letting go of my attachment to vegetarianism as a "spiritual litmus" test and am trying to teach myself to be more nonjudgmental.

Me too.

I almost deleted the comment because I was afraid it would trigger anger or guilt in others and that it came off as a bit "preachy".

I would not have had the courage to voice my own comments had it not been for you voicing yours. So thank you! This illustrates my point: Why must we feel that we must censor ourselves?

When I read the comment about buffets hating me because veggies are more expensive than meats, I was sorely tempted to write up some hasty response pointing out the horribly skewed economics of the food industry due to factory farming. Meat may be cheaper than fruits and vegetables in a monetary sense, but it certainly isn't cheaper to produce in terms of actual resources expended and its production has far worse consequences for the environment.

Why did you refrain? Is not education about these issues a good thing? These are issues that concern us all, not just the animals. It concerns the environment and other humans as well.

Then, when I read the suggestion of finding a balance between meat and veggies, I thought the idea was patently absurd. To a person like me, who does indeed believe in balance, the idea of finding a balance between meat and veggies is like suggesting finding a balance between child molestation and playing with your kids on the playground!! It just doesn't compute!

My feelings exactly!

I would like to invite those who eat meat to do a little exercise. Pretend, just for a minute, that it's human children we vegetarians are championing. Would you feel differently about our obnoxious zealousness?

Compassion and understanding work both ways. Perhaps, if the vegetarians can have tolerance and understanding of those who eat meat, so too can the meat-eaters have compassion of what it must be like for vegetarians to feel so frustrated, when they are expected to politely nod and turn their backs on horrible suffering by...human children.

The fact that it's animals who are suffering rather than human children is irrelevant to someone who considers animals sentient. Animals feel pain just as acutely as do humans.

The Creator whispers in my ear and tells me that the vegetarian path is right..... for me. I feel it in every fiber of my being, in the very depths of my soul that I cannot and will not and should not eat animal flesh for any reason whatsoever. I know reincarnation exists and nothing is lost, I understand that, but I simply cannot be any other way. I am convinced only of my own path, each must find their own way. I am only too aware of just how ignorant I am, ultimately. I look at beautiful souls like Carla Rueckert or the Dalai Lama, or even some of these fine people on the forum, and they are not vegetarian but in many ways have achieved a higher level of spiritual greatness than me. I wish I could understand how they can be so spiritual and yet eat animal flesh. I don't believe I ever will, though, and I'm finding peace with that. Just because I "can't figure it out" doesn't mean that what they are doing is wrong in a grand, cosmic sense. I find that focusing on these things stimulates feelings of separation in me and that is not what I am striving towards. So, I'm working on accepting that I DON'T understand and probably never will, but I will content myself with removing the log from my own eye and stop worrying about the speck in my neighbor's! And despite my vegetarianism, I am not innocent -- I have taken life accidentally and intentionally in my years in 3D life. I must do what my heart tells me in this area, but I pray that I will be granted the wisdom of when to speak and when to be silent on this issue. That I will somehow find a way to stand up for my brutalized and victimized animal brethren, without sowing discord and disharmony among my human brothers and sisters.

...This topic is so very hard for me. I pray for compassion and wisdom and to be nonjudgmental. How to overcome the paradox of being nonjudgmental about something you personally feel is completely wrong? I really don't know! I really don't, but I am trying to understand. I counsel everyone who eats meat only to give gratitude to the soul that has given its life for their sustenance. I have resigned myself that I will never have all the answers nor completely understand this topic and all of its ramifications. I will simply continue to Be the way I feel I must Be, and try to honor both my human family as well as my younger brothers and sisters in the animal kingdom. For me, THAT is the balance I am striving towards.

Again, your thoughts are my thoughts.

I ask all of you for forgiveness and compassion. I have probably said too much. I hope that you can understand the kinship I feel with Pablisimo right now, the release of a burden and the joy of finding someone who understands what has been such a struggle for me. Many of my comments were directed at him. Perhaps we should have have had our conversation in private, via pm, so as not to offend anyone. But I know that both Pablisimo and I have tried valiantly to not be judgmental, and if we have failed, please forgive us! I hope that we will be forgiven for choosing to express our thoughts, for the sake of sharing and understanding other points of view. (And, this is a vegetarian thread!)

[fairyfarmgirl]

Violence is any act that impacts the life of another. This is an inherently violent place, this Earth. The Earth is inherently violent. Just by being Herself she takes life and gives life. This is the act, the violence.

Even plants have feelings. When I awakened I could not eat anything and struggled with just living for in breathing I was killing another-- the act of existing was killing something somewhere. The clothes I wear. The furniture I sit upon. The car I drive. The food I eat. The Insects that meet their death at my hand and/or windshield. This is an act of violence. I had to then choose my life or the lives of others. Even committing suicide is an act of violence against self. Not eating is an act of violence against self. So what is one to do with all these acts of violence?

I made peace with it all for I had to choose life, my life and that of my child's. So I now eat and eat that which balances me and keeps me in balance. But I still struggle with the ethicalness of being here on Earth and the Violence of Living.

fairyfarmgirl

[Monica]

Violence is any act that impacts the life of another.

I am very surprised by your perception of the word. So do you consider childbirth a violent act? I respect your view but this is strange to me.

This is an inherently violent place, this Earth. The Earth is inherently violent. Just by being Herself she takes life and gives life. This is the act, the violence.

I don't see Earth as violent at all. I see Earth as being very patient and tolerant, but it is humans who cause the violence. Earth responds by releasing builtup pressure. I don't see power as violent.

Even plants have feelings. When I awakened I could not eat anything and struggled with just living for in breathing I was killing another-- the act of existing was killing something somewhere. The clothes I wear. The furniture I sit upon. The car I drive. The food I eat. The Insects that meet their death at my hand and/or windshield. This is an act of violence.

Wow. Again I am surprised! I see it totally differently. I see my body as a host, the same way the Earth is host to us. I have some, but not total, choice in what sorts of organisms I invite to inhabit my body. Our bodies contain millions upon millions of microorganisms. I don't see it as violence to them to breathe them in, or even death.

Clothing, as in the case of fur or leather, was obtained by acts of violence. But do you see even cotton as killing something, as violence?

I had the opposite experience as you. I am now delighting in the richness of my wild foods garden. Beautiful, wild weeds are growing in abundance in my front yard, and when I pick them and eat them, I feel joy radiating from the plants. The more I enjoy eating them, the more they seem to multiply! They seem to delight in nourishing my body and I truly believe they are not dying, but merging their consciousness with mine. How can this be compared to an animal whose runs in terror from the hunter? I am trying to understand your point of view.

I had to then choose my life or the lives of others.

Ah, I am beginning to understand that we have a different paradigm. In my paradigm, choosing self over other-self would be divisive. If we are all One, then what is best for me is also best for you. How could it be otherwise? How could there be a conflict? How could it be good for me to eat an animal, if the animal does not wish to be eaten? Why must I choose between myself and another?

My prayer is always that the highest good for all be done. What is the highest good for all will also be the highest good for each of us.

Even committing suicide is an act of violence against self. Not eating is an act of violence against self.

This I agree with.

So what is one to do with all these acts of violence?

Why must we do anything with them, if they are beyond our control? I cannot control a bug who splatters on my windshield. But I can choose to look a calf in the eyes and see its soul, and I can choose to not kill it.

I can choose to talk to the oversoul of the bees and wasps, and politely ask them to please not build their nests by my door and windows, instead of just spraying them with bug spray.

I can choose to turn the beetle over, instead of letting it flounder on its back. But if I accidentally step on it without intending to, I see no point in feeling guilty about that.

I made peace with it all for I had to choose life, my life and that of my child's. So I now eat and eat that which balances me and keeps me in balance. But I still struggle with the ethicalness of being here on Earth and the Violence of Living.

No one is judging you. Thank you for sharing!

I too struggle, but in a different way. I struggle with the knowing that millions of animals are being cruelly slaughtered every day, and I wonder whether I am speaking up enough. My guilt is not from the bug I accidentally stepped on, but from wondering whether I am letting my own fear of not being accepted by other (human) selves get in the way of championing those who cannot speak for themselves.

Many humans are suffering as well, but at least most aware people try to do their part on that, whether it's by being politically active, giving to charities, or whatever. I see the animal suffering and the human suffering as being connected.

The Starfish Story

Once there was a great, great storm. Waves high as mountains, winds strong as giants.
But that's not important

What is important is the next day, when Old Man Acha comes walking down the beach, looking for bodies and treasure, the last remnants of ships gone to sleep in the storm. He has to pick his way carefully, 'cause the beach is littered in starfish, castaways from the deep. The storm plucked them from their watery beds and deposited the poor souls on the sandy shore. Acha steps around them - many still alive. He keeps ambling up the beach, minding his own business, when he spies a youngling. She's throwing starfish into the ocean, many as she can, but still not makin' a dent in the piles. The Old Man, he wonders at this and says:

"Why bother to throw back any? How can it matter when there are so many? You throw back one, you still left with a ton? You never save them all."

That little girl she doesn't even pause to glance his way. She just keeps on flinging those 'fish back in the sea. She stops only long enough to say:

"It matters to this one"

as she flings it into the ocean.

[fairyfarmgirl]

Growing Cotton I see as violent. The Earth is violently turned up. The natural plants living there destroyed. The insects and animals, birds and reptiles and if near a body of water amphibians and fish living in the earth are killed or maimed their homes destroyed. The Cotton is forced to grow in ways that it does not wish to. It is filled with Genetics It does not want. It is planted and sprayed with pesticides and herbicides. The fauna and flora of the area is assaulted by humanity. Human migrant workers are assaulted by the spraying of chemicals and by classism. They are seen not as human. Not worth anything. Expendable.

Then the harvesting of Cotton. Once again machines come. Destroy the Earth. Pollute the air and water. Kill the Cotton.

Then the processing. Done by the hands of children and women. Classism is an act of violence.

Then the selling of the cotton. The spinning into thread. Done by women and children in places where they have no voice, no rights and are seen as expendable.

Then the weaving. Then the selling of cloth. All is an act of violence against someone somewhere.

Then the buying of clothes. A single mom scans the tags of the clothes barely making enough to pay her rent, feed her children working for a store sells clothes made of cotton.

Someone somewhere is dying because of a field of cotton. Flora and Fauna have been harmed. The Earth assaulted.

Then, the clothes are seen as old news. Discarded into a landfill. Again another assault to Earth, flora and fauna.

Everywhere with everything an act of violence is committed against something somewhere just by living.

I pray that the highest good occurs for all everywhere.

fairyfarmgirl

[Monica]

Growing Cotton I see as violent.

fairyfarmgirl, when I mentioned cotton, I had no idea I'd get such a strong response. I can see that you are very passionate about this.

Even though you are I are approaching these issues differently, I see us as ultimately working together for the same cause. We both want harmony on the planet and a respect for all of her lifeforms.

I would like to offer a suggestion which may explain why I have chosen to focus on the animal suffering issue.

You are able to perceive fairies and other entities. Most people don't. I don't. I wish I did. I have tried many times to reach them, but to no avail. I perceive feelings from plants, but that's it. And average, mainstream people have even less awareness of the life around them.

For most people, asking them to comprehend the feelings of a plant is beyond their present capability. It's too subtle.

But these people can comprehend blood.

Bloodshed is real, tangible. Blood is equated with pain, violence, and death. People understand bloodshed. People know that when a human bleeds, s/he is feeling pain. They comprehend this. They might not comprehend the consciousness of plants, but they can easily comprehend that when their dog gets hit by a car, he is in pain.

It's a big leap to go from having compassion for human suffering to having compassion for plant suffering (if they do indeed suffer in the way that animals do, which I am not convinced of). But it's not such a leap for them to go from having compassion for human suffering to having compassion for animal suffering.

Most people are oblivious to animal suffering. Most people have never visited a slaughterhouse and have no idea of the horrors going on there. But now, with youtube videos, all of that has been made public. I am a supporter of getting the ugliness out into the open where the light can shine in. People get offended when they see anything graphic but how else can they be made aware of it? Why should ugliness be swept under the rug?

I honor and respect your passionate views about the raping of the Earth. I feel the same. What I'm suggesting is that we START with the animals!!! This is something people can grasp. They might not be ready to grasp the depth of what you shared in your last post. That is asking too much for them at this time. But they CAN grasp the image of a cow bellowing in pain, the look of terror in her eyes, the images of cruelty that have been preserved for all the world to see.

If we could all work together to expose this OBVIOUS suffering of entities who are getting close to graduation to 3D, we could do so much good in the world. So much pain could be alleviated if animal suffering were brought out into the public awareness. This is what we animal activists are trying to do.

I think it's fruitless to have a debate on who suffers more, the animals or the plants. We've already explored that and will have to agree to disagree, since there is no way to prove it one way or the other. But I think we might be able to agree that, for the average person, seeing an entity who has a face, with emotions displayed on that face, and the ability to express his pain and suffering, will have a greater impact than trying to get them to comprehend something more subtle and less tangible.

I propose that we start with the more obvious suffering, and we will make more progress towards ending all suffering.

blessings to you on your path

[Richard]

I have a good friend who is a vegetarian. His definition of it is…that he eats nothing that has eyes. Everything else is okay as far as he is concerned.

Richard

[Monica]

I have a good friend who is a vegetarian. His definition of it is…that he eats nothing that has eyes. Everything else is okay as far as he is concerned.

Yes, that is the standard definition. Some take it a step further and avoid conventional eggs and dairy, opting instead for free-range eggs and organic, hormone-free dairy. But yes, the consensual standard definition of vegetarian is one who doesn't eat anything that had a face. This includes clocks!

[Pablísimo]

RE: Veggies by Force...

Well, Monica, with our last couple of posts I believe we have smashed this particular Pandora's box wide open! Since it is out in the open now, rather than just let it be, I've decided I will continue to share my thoughts openly and honestly, in the sincere hope that what I have to say may increase harmony and mutual understanding. I realize there is a high probability that some of my views on vegetarianism will be taken as arrogant and divisive, but I can only appeal to the Higher Selves of everyone in this wonderful forum to accept that this is not my intent and let the spirit of compassion and mutual understanding reign. I do not intend to be judgemental or dishonor the choices of others, and if anything that follows comes across that way then I apologize in advance and echo Monica's call for understanding and forgiveness. I will do my very best to respect others, but at the same time I will not dishonor myself and continue to censor my thoughts so harshly.

I reflected on your comments for a long time and re-read my own several times and realized just how fearful I have become when talking about this subject. I am always walking on eggshells about something that is so very close to my heart, even in a group of loving and spiritually-minded individuals such as this one. In truth, I have been dealing with this burden for a long time and I cannot tell you how empowering it is simply to know that I am not alone in that struggle. To find other-selves out there with the same tumultuous thoughts and passions somehow makes it easier to bear. Thank you for your emboldening and inspiring words.

Yeah, I noticed that too! Maybe we're from the same planet! Big Grin

Hmm...interesting thought. As crazy as it sounds, that might just be!

(Yesterday 05:05 PM)Pablísimo Wrote: And INFJ in Jungian typology.
I don't know anything about that.

I just learned about the Jungian typology myself while reading Peregrinus's Unfeeling thread. There was a link posted to a Myers-Briggs personality test:

http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes2.asp

where I found out I was INFJ. It's oddly listed as less than 1% of the population but my wife (a Cancer) and sister (a Pisces) came back as INFJ from this test as well so it can't be THAT rare. To be perfectly frank though, astrology has always resonated with me more than psychology, but I found this to be an interesting corner of the field to explore. Anyway, I'm still thinking about this concept on the back burner -- I haven't yet made up my mind on it.

I too have been trying to tread carefully in this particular thread.
This is my point. Why must the burden of 'treading carefully' fall on us?

Good question. Please consider this part a response also to your post #50 in the "In regards to eating meat" thread and for others reading a direct response from one vegetarian to another, in an effort to increase our own compassion and understanding, not an attempt to make others feel bad about their choices.

Now, if I remove all the sugar coating, the question really becomes, why on earth should we give more tolerance and respect to meat eaters for their choice than we do to people who perform other acts we perceive as equally despicable, such as child rapists? How can we NOT feel justified, once we become aware of the enormous suffering of the animals, to forcefully, vehemently defend them and shine the cold light of day upon the very ugly realities that encompass a meat eating lifestyle in the modern age?

Why, when all we are doing is trying to minimize suffering and the unnecessary taking of life, should we walk eggshells with everyone, especially when, in our minds, this issue is so simple, obvious and "cut and dried"? Why, indeed?!?!?!

I have 3 basic reasons: Practicality, inspiration, and Humility.

1) Practicality

To answer this question, I believe that we must ask ourselves what exactly our true goals are. Do we wish to start a fight? Get on a soapbox or high horse? Make others feel bad? Sow the seeds of division in our HUMAN family? Or is that what we really want is for animal suffering to end? It's the latter of course! What I have found through trial and error is that if I do NOT walk eggshells with meat eaters, if I am overly forceful in explaining my vegetarian perspective, that it causes people to shut down. They feel anger and guilt and their heart chakra closes up tightly. At that point, they have hardened their hearts and are deaf to anything I may have to say, no matter how heartfelt or insightful, on the subject. The net result of this is that I have incited divisive feelings of separation, an "us and them" mentality, caused an other-self to feel guilt and anger and lower their consciousness level, and all this without actually doing anything to help the other person focus on the issues of animal suffering in the first place! It's not that I feel that we should have to tread lightly in a grand sense, it's that from a practical standpoint, we get nowhere by being confrontational in any way.

Even a mild discussion of meat eating versus vegetarianism tends to elicit very strong defensive reactions in many, many people, spiritual or otherwise. I, too, have had several experiences where I just asked for the vegetarian menu in a restaurant or made a simple request to leave the meat off of my pasta that sparked a defensive reaction in someone else at the table. These reactions, which I did not in any way solicit intentionally, range from people poking fun at my dietary choice to making guilty statements like "I only eat chicken occasionally" or "I need the protein" or some other excuse.

I know how arrogant this may sound to a non-vegetarian, but my personal theory is that most people are aware of the cruelty inherent in a meat-centered diet on an unconscious level, but they choose not to think about it. Most people seem to look at meat as little circles and squares of food and nothing else. It's "pork and beef", not "cows and pigs". Or how about the fact that many are horrified at the very concept of eating a dog or horse but will happily devour a burger. I really think most people push it out of their conscious mind and choose not to see what is on their plate for what it really is. I seriously doubt the average meat eater thinks to themselves "I'm responsible for the suffering and slaughter of thousands of sentient beings by my food choices."

When confronted with a vegetarian who is on that path for ethical reasons, I believe it forces people to think about things they would rather not. You're shining a light on a very dark corner of their minds and the instant reaction is an internal revulsion that manifests as guilt, anger, and defensiveness. When a person is in that mode, they are pulled by their very emotions into a lower state of vibration, and are simply not receptive to "seeing the light". And because we feel so strongly on the topic, it is all too easy for us to get self-righteous in our condemnation of the practice. Remember they are likely perceiving this as a personal attack as we are discussing something very fundamental and intimate to day to day existence.

Though I agree with the basic premise about fur, I don't really think the people who throw fake blood on people wearing fur coats are really helping to raise awareness in a constructive fashion. We just don't get very far by telling strangers in a restaurant what they are doing is cruel, true as it might be.

To me, what we have here is a situation where we simply MUST be more gentle when approaching the topic with meat eaters if we want to have any hope whatsoever of spreading the word about animal suffering. Once I shifted my attitude and approach to meat eaters by being intentionally non-judgemental and extra understanding, I began to see that I had a greater impact on people in raising awareness of animal suffering. Like I mentioned before, a good common ground has been to suggest that we first must change the horrifying conditions of animals raised for meat production as a major environmental and humanitarian priority. I mean, though I personally reject outright the slaughter of animals for food no matter how you do it, I would at least prefer that it be done in a more humane fashion, such as the methods that Lorna described in the other thread.

I have yet to meet a meat eater who disagreed that factory farming has to change when the subject was broached in a loving fashion.

2) Inspiration

I believe that a step toward the light is simultaneously a step away from the darkness. If you walk toward the east, you walk away from the west, to put it another way.

We don't have to point out others' faults -- we can instead provide an example of spiritual living where vegetarianism is a natural part. Like it or not, we vegetarians are ambassadors of a way of living and people will draw conclusions on our choices based on the way that we behave. I would much rather concentrate on being a loving being, spreading kindness and compassion wherever I can than making people feel guilty about things that they are doing that are wrong. When people see you behaving in this kind, loving and humble fashion, they are more likely to want to know more about your reasons for choosing a vegetarian path. That opens the door to loving, constructive dialogue where you can make great progress and raise awareness. I have seen the impact of my new, gentler approach in my friends and cowokers and it is a beautiful sight to see their hearts expand, even if they don't embrace vegetarianism completely. Whenever asked, I try to tell people that being vegetarian does not make me spiritual. Being spiritual is what made me become vegetarian. There is a subtle, but important difference. Overall, what I am struggling to say is that I would rather lead by letting my own light shine than by pointing out the darkness in others.

3) Humility

I have come to terms with the fact that I will never reconcile spiritual people who are meat eaters, and must acknowledge that several otherwise wonderful people exist. Carla, Dalai Lama, etc. Even Ra actually suggested to Carla to eat meat! So, I have to allow for the possibility that I am wrong. I will not choose a different path for myself,but I can at least be respectful of others and who knows, maybe I am being an extremist after all. If this choice is wrong, then I don't want to be right, but I won't be so arrogant as to ignore the possibility that I'm looking at this from a lower perspective than I should.

One thing that has helped me to is to focus on stopping the suffering and torture rather than the death (though both bother me). To try to be more compassionate and separate meat eating itself from the conditions the animals are held under, I meditate on the Native Americans, participating in the great dance of life. Taking what they needed to live, both plants and animals, but always doing so with gratitude and respect. Since I have the option not to do so, I do not eat meat, but ultimately is what they were doing wrong? Did you see the movie Avatar? There is a scene in it where Jake shoots a hexapede with an arrow. He then walks over to it and finishes the kill while he prays: "I see you, brother, and thank you. Your spirit goes with Eywa (God), your body stays behind to become part of the people." Despite the harsh moment, I found this to be very beautiful in some way.

Another thing is that there is a consciousness in plants and I am not completely convinced that I never cause suffering by eating plants. I try to minimize the suffering I inflict on this earth and overall try to tread lightly on the earth plane, but I don't lose site of the possibility of hypocrisy.

You know, I am working on correcting a wide range of problems and improving myself in many ways that have nothing to do with diet. I am trying to remain humble as I wander through this life and sometimes talking about meat eating has made me feel superior and arrogant. I do not believe I am any better than anyone else and I truly wish to focus on unity, common ground, and harmony in my interactions with other human beings.

So, there you have it. THESE are the real reasons why I think we should be careful about how we discuss this topic, not because the other side is right in any way. I hope to explain my perspective rather than justify it.

I recently did the same with a friend who became a vegetarian. She works at a grocery store and had recently been having some intense spiritual revelations. She began feeling ONE with the entire planet, and developed compassion whereas it had formerly been difficult for her. Suddenly, one day when she was at work and had to get some meat out of the freezer, she became acutely aware of the body parts all around her. She suddenly felt as though she were in a morgue. She no longer saw the meat wrapped in plastic as food, but as body parts of living, sentient beings...beings with faces, personalities and souls....beings who felt pain and who shrieked in terror when slaughtered.

She felt such an intense impact of compassion and pain that she burst into tears and could no longer continue at work that day. She struggled with it because she needed the job. She asked to be transferred and they sent her to work in the deli. But that wasn't safe either. They were selling live lobsters. They dipped the lobsters in boiling water, and turned on a machine at that instant so that the customers wouldn't hear the lobsters scream. But my friend heard the screams, and the screams haunted her.

She is still working at that store. Each day is a torment for her. I advised her to try to raise awareness one person at a time, and this is what she is doing. Rather than storm up to a woman wearing a fur coat, she now gently asks her is she is aware of the pain that animal endured. Rather than accuse people of being insensitive and cruel, she now tries to tactfully and gently introduce them to what they are doing. I reminded her how recently it was that she too was oblivious to the suffering.

Oh my goodness, what a terrible situation for her to be in! This is great catalyst for her soul growth, but I would not want to be forced into that environment in a million years. Please don't take this the wrong way, but given that grocery store positions are relatively low on the economic scale and competitors are prevalent in the US, I would suggest that she try to get a job at another store where she can work in a section that does not involve the execution of lobsters. That is horrifying to have to push the button day after day!! And I know exactly what she means about the meat department. There comes a point in your vegetarian path where you realize the terrible macabre sight of meat piled on a table. You one day recognize it for what it truly is and it is deeply disturbing. I try not to even look in that direction when I am in the grocery store.

I hate to share an ugly experience with you, but I too know well the scream of a lobster in pain. I was scuba diving in Florida some years ago, and had just gotten back onto the boat, warm and flushed with the glow of the joy of the ocean. I feel such oneness when I swim among the fishes and corals -- being surrounded by the Creator's beauty under the waves is a truly sublime and spiritual experience. Well, apparently one of the other divers had been catching lobster and before I realized what was happening, he actually RIPPED the claws and legs off of the lobster, laughed, and threw it in a cooler. The lobster was shrieking, mad with pain, and thrashing around wildly. It was so brutal, so shocking, and so cruel. I was just stunned, and all I could think to say was "Why don't you just kill it?" The answer was something to the effect that they taste better if they are alive when you boil them. I'm ashamed to admit to you that I held my tongue that day, saying nothing more to this man. I should have spoken up, but I didn't. I just walked to the end of the boat, looked towards the horizon and wept silently as I listened to the lobster shriek. Upset as I was, you can bet I was feeling pretty unkind thoughts at the time, dropping my vibrations in spite of myself.

I honestly don't think I could bear that sound with any regularity. I pray your friend be granted the courage to deal with it.

Why are feelings of guilt to be avoided? Doesn't guilt serve a purpose?

Yes, I think they do. If you feel guilty about something that is not from external programming, then it can be a great catalyst to correct actions that are hurting you. I just feel it is not my place to stimulate that guilt in others. They will need to confront it, or pretend they don't have any guilt, as they see fit, but it is not my right to make them see it.

I would not have had the courage to voice my own comments had it not been for you voicing yours. So thank you! This illustrates my point: Why must we feel that we must censor ourselves?

This thread has been very healing for me and you have inspired me to say far more than I normally would have and also to challenge my assumptions about how much I should normally say. What I wrote above came from the heart, but I wouldn't normally share it in front of meat eaters like this. But this forum is a special place, and if there ever was a place to be "real", it is here. As long as we are compassionate and respectful in the way we talk about this, we have every right to our views, even if they make others uncomfortable. Thank you for helping me to see that.

I would like to invite those who eat meat to do a little exercise. Pretend, just for a minute, that it's human children we vegetarians are championing. Would you feel differently about our obnoxious zealousness?

Compassion and understanding work both ways. Perhaps, if the vegetarians can have tolerance and understanding of those who eat meat, so too can the meat-eaters have compassion of what it must be like for vegetarians to feel so frustrated, when they are expected to politely nod and turn their backs on horrible suffering by...human children.

The fact that it's animals who are suffering rather than human children is irrelevant to someone who considers animals sentient. Animals feel pain just as acutely as do humans.

I agree completely. This is a great exercise!! Just to clarify, I believe you're not asking meat eaters to accept that human children suffering and animal suffering are of equal importance. I believe you are asking them to hypothetically imagine how they would feel about the issue if it was human kids instead of cows being tortured and killed. Then, recognize that to a vegetarian there is no real difference in these scenarios even if they personally do not equate the two in importance. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but that's the way I received it. This could be a key to compassion and understanding for a meat eater. THIS is why we're so darned passionate about it! Overzealous we may be, but thinking of it in terms of human children might help them understand where we are coming from.

In closing, I would like only to re-iterate that I meant no disrespect whatsoever by my posts and am striving to be nonjudgemental and compassionate with those who do not agree with me. I ask for the forgiveness of anyone I have offended by my position. Monica mentioned in a previous post that perhaps we should have had this conversation in a PM because in many ways our comments were directed to eachother, those of like mind with a similar struggle. And perhaps that is true, but I am not ashamed of my views. Just like the difficult pornography thread, I cannot help but feel that on our collective journey to oneness these innermost thoughts and heartfelt perspectives shared by loving people striving for understanding and growth will be helpful to others as well.

Again, let mutual understanding and compassion reign in our hearts!!

Love to all

[fairyfarmgirl]

Growing Cotton I see as violent.

fairyfarmgirl, when I mentioned cotton, I had no idea I'd get such a strong response. I can see that you are very passionate about this.

Even though you are I are approaching these issues differently, I see us as ultimately working together for the same cause. We both want harmony on the planet and a respect for all of her lifeforms.

I would like to offer a suggestion which may explain why I have chosen to focus on the animal suffering issue.

You are able to perceive fairies and other entities. Most people don't. I don't. I wish I did. I have tried many times to reach them, but to no avail. I perceive feelings from plants, but that's it. And average, mainstream people have even less awareness of the life around them.

For most people, asking them to comprehend the feelings of a plant is beyond their present capability. It's too subtle.

But these people can comprehend blood.

Bloodshed is real, tangible. Blood is equated with pain, violence, and death. People understand bloodshed. People know that when a human bleeds, s/he is feeling pain. They comprehend this. They might not comprehend the consciousness of plants, but they can easily comprehend that when their dog gets hit by a car, he is in pain.

It's a big leap to go from having compassion for human suffering to having compassion for plant suffering (if they do indeed suffer in the way that animals do, which I am not convinced of). But it's not such a leap for them to go from having compassion for human suffering to having compassion for animal suffering.

Most people are oblivious to animal suffering. Most people have never visited a slaughterhouse and have no idea of the horrors going on there. But now, with youtube videos, all of that has been made public. I am a supporter of getting the ugliness out into the open where the light can shine in. People get offended when they see anything graphic but how else can they be made aware of it? Why should ugliness be swept under the rug?

I honor and respect your passionate views about the raping of the Earth. I feel the same. What I'm suggesting is that we START with the animals!!! This is something people can grasp. They might not be ready to grasp the depth of what you shared in your last post. That is asking too much for them at this time. But they CAN grasp the image of a cow bellowing in pain, the look of terror in her eyes, the images of cruelty that have been preserved for all the world to see.

If we could all work together to expose this OBVIOUS suffering of entities who are getting close to graduation to 3D, we could do so much good in the world. So much pain could be alleviated if animal suffering were brought out into the public awareness. This is what we animal activists are trying to do.

I think it's fruitless to have a debate on who suffers more, the animals or the plants. We've already explored that and will have to agree to disagree, since there is no way to prove it one way or the other. But I think we might be able to agree that, for the average person, seeing an entity who has a face, with emotions displayed on that face, and the ability to express his pain and suffering, will have a greater impact than trying to get them to comprehend something more subtle and less tangible.

I propose that we start with the more obvious suffering, and we will make more progress towards ending all suffering.

blessings to you on your path

Living is an Act of Violence is a Paradox. There is no way out of this. Someone and Something somewhere will be suffering and be on the recieving end of violence.

Trees are 3D. Many are operating at that level right now. They feel and have consciousness. They speak. It is us who do not understand... does that make what they are speaking any less important.

It was an Aborigional Guide (a spirit) that assisted me out of the paradox I had boxed myself into. Yes, all suffers. Yet, their suffering can be minimized by the Law of Love and Right Action. Through the process of Blessing and seeing all as Sacred including Self. All is part of a system of eating. All is eaten. When put in this context one is simply living within a system of eating. I eat and then I am eaten. My essence, my Beingness (Soul and Spirit) are ever Eternal. The body is simply a tool to be used with respect, honor and dignity and with Sacred Attention... but it is still a tool with a consciousness of its own that requires an operating system (the soul).

Plants have feeling and thoughts as much as an animal. Some plants will become poisonous when harvested incorrectly. This is a FEAR response-- sometimes certain plants will preconcieve a threat and take actions to protect themselves. Precognition is a sign of intelligence.

All life is sacred. In eating I take life from something and someone somewhere. In living I take life from something and someone somewhere.

In my conversations with the Fairies and Devas and the Aborigional Guide was that by cultivating sacred attention to life I was lifting up life. Through prayer and blessings and a sacred attitude and posture I create a vortex of positive energy this acts to raise up that which I have taken... to move it forward into Greater Beingness.

I am an American. I live in a modern home with modern convienences. I eat food from a grocery store. There was a time that I did not do any of this except still be an American. I lived along side the road and ate that which was given... Now that I have children to raise whose paths do not include living alongside the road eating that which is given I live a modern life with modern trappings. The difference is I cultivate a Sacred Life. I see all as Sacred and act with Love and Honor and Respect. As Jake said in Avatar, I see you, brother. This is the HEART of Living a Life Sacred.

What I also learned during my conversations with the Aborigine was my role here on Earth is stay Embodied. Staying Embodied means caring for body in the way that it is asking to be cared for. This is also a paradox. For some the body will ask for animal proteins. And once again my guide gently turned me to the Lion and the Gazelle. The Lion must eat thus it stalks the Gazelle. The Gazelle must eat thus it stalks the Plants. The Plants must eat thus it stalks the Earth. The Earth must Eat and awaits the Stalking to begin. All is eaten. Lions are not vegetarians. For them to be so would mean certain death. Gazelles are not Carnivores to Eat Meat would be certain death for the Gazelle. The Plants eat all. All is welcome. The Decomposers Eat All. All is Welcome... All is eaten. Seen in this context I became more comfortable with being embodied and began to make Peace with the way things are. In the space of acceptance Change is initiated.

I work toward Ethical Treatment of all Food sources and Plants. This is key.

I pray for the highest good for all everywhere.

fairyfarmgirl