Why I am not a vegan
02-22-2021, 06:45 PM,
RE: Why I am not a vegan
(02-22-2021, 05:38 PM)Diana Wrote:  
(02-22-2021, 05:27 PM)confusedseeker Wrote:  Veganism is absolutely terrible for your health, even if you take out the agenda behind it.

I don't know why you think that. I am also a long-time vegan and like Jade, I am very healthy—healthier than many people way younger than me.

I am wondering what you think the "agenda" is. Please tell us.

I definitely think some people can handle being vegan, some people are genetically able and genetically gifted. But the human body is designed to digest animal protein, fats, and micronutrients. This is especially the case with Omega 3s, DHA/EPA, which are most easily digestible from animals.
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02-22-2021, 07:48 PM,
RE: Why I am not a vegan
(02-22-2021, 06:45 PM)confusedseeker Wrote:  I definitely think some people can handle being vegan, some people are genetically able and genetically gifted.  But the human body is designed to digest animal protein, fats, and micronutrients.  This is especially the case with Omega 3s, DHA/EPA, which are most easily digestible from animals.

The following is just one reference and if you don't believe this, I can find others. The human body was not designed to eat meat. Maybe the recent popularity of the keto diet sparked the idea. This is not to say that your personal choices don't matter. I just want to give you the facts about the human body.

Quote:The Truth About Humans and Eating Meat

What is the natural human diet? Are humans natural meat-eaters? Quick test: When you see dead animals on the side of the road, are you tempted to stop and snack on them? Do you daydream about killing cows with your bare hands and eating them raw? If you answered “no” to these questions, then, like it or not, you’re an herbivore.

The following points help prove that a natural human diet is, in fact, vegan—and that enslaving animals, stealing their milk and eggs, and killing them simply isn’t what nature intended.

Think you’re a paleo caveman or -woman? Well …
Although many humans choose to eat both plants and meat, earning us the dubious title of “omnivore,” we’re anatomically herbivorous. The good news is that if you want to eat like our ancestors, you still can: Nuts, vegetables, fruit, and legumes are the basis of a healthy vegan lifestyle.

Our Teeth, Jaws, and Nails
Humans have short, soft fingernails and small “canine” teeth. In contrast, carnivores all have sharp claws and large canine teeth that are capable of tearing flesh.

Carnivores’ jaws move only up and down, requiring them to tear chunks of flesh from their prey and swallow them whole. Humans and other herbivores can move their jaws up and down and from side to side, allowing them to grind up fruit and vegetables with their back teeth. Like other herbivores’ teeth, humans’ back molars are flat for grinding fibrous plant foods.

Dr. Richard Leakey, a renowned anthropologist, summarizes, “You can’t tear flesh by hand, you can’t tear hide by hand. Our anterior teeth are not suited for tearing flesh or hide. We don’t have large canine teeth, and we wouldn’t have been able to deal with food sources that require those large canines.”

Stomach Acidity
Carnivorous animals swallow their food whole, relying on extremely acidic stomach juices to break down flesh and kill the dangerous bacteria in it, which would otherwise sicken or kill them. Our stomach acids are much weaker in comparison, because strong acids aren’t needed to digest prechewed fruits and vegetables.

Intestinal Length
Animals who hunt have short intestinal tracts and colons that allow meat to pass through their bodies relatively quickly, before it can rot and cause illness. Humans’ intestinal tracts are much longer than those of carnivores of comparable size. Longer intestines allow the body more time to break down fiber and absorb the nutrients from plant-based foods, but they make it dangerous for humans to eat meat. The bacteria in meat have extra time to multiply during the long trip through the digestive system, increasing the risk of food poisoning. Meat actually begins to rot while it makes its way through human intestines, which increases the risk of developing colon cancer.

Human Evolution and the Rise of Meat-Heavy Diets
If it’s so unhealthy and unnatural for humans to eat meat, why did our ancestors sometimes turn to flesh for sustenance? Author of the book The Power of Your Plate, Dr. Neal Barnard, talks about humans’ early diet, explaining that we “had diets very much like other great apes, which is to say a largely plant-based diet …. [M]eat-eating probably began by scavenging—eating the leftovers that carnivores had left behind. However, our bodies have never adapted to it. To this day, meat-eaters have a higher incidence of heart disease, cancer, diabetes, and other problems.”

Briana Pobiner, paleoanthropologist at the Smithsonian’s National Museum of Natural History, adds, “[F]ruit and different plants and other things that we may have eaten maybe became less available. . . . The meat-eating that we do, or that our ancestors did even back to the earliest time we were eating meat, is culturally mediated. You need some kind of processing technology in order to eat meat .… So I don’t necessarily think we are hardwired to eat meat.”

There’s Something About Dairy
Humans started domesticating cattle only 10,000 years ago. Until then, children who stopped breastfeeding also stopped making the enzyme lactase and became lactose intolerant. After the domestication of cattle, however, the human digestive tract began to process dairy “products.” Groups who do not rely on cattle—like the Pima tribe, the Chinese and Thai, and the Bantu of West Africa—continue to be lactose intolerant today.

The Unfortunate Modern Diet
Until recently, only the wealthiest people could afford to feed, raise, and slaughter animals for meat, while everyone else ate mostly plant foods. Consequently, prior to the 20th century, only the rich were plagued routinely with diseases such as heart disease and obesity.

Now that animal flesh has become relatively cheap and is easily available (thanks to the cruel, cost-cutting practices of farming), deadly ailments such as heart disease, strokes, cancer, diabetes, and obesity have spread to people across the socio-economic spectrum. And as the Western lifestyle spills over into less-developed areas of Asia and Africa, people there, too, have begun to suffer and die from diseases associated with meat-based diets.

When humans consume animal protein, research shows a link to cancer of the colon, breast, prostate, and pancreas. According to nutrition expert T. Colin Campbell, the director of the Cornell-China-Oxford Project on Nutrition, Health, and the Environment, “In the next ten years, one of the things you’re bound to hear is that animal protein . . . is one of the most toxic nutrients of all that can be considered.”

https://www.peta.org/living/food/really-natural-truth-humans-eating-meat/
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MrWho
02-22-2021, 08:03 PM, (This post was last modified: 02-22-2021, 08:04 PM by MrWho.)
RE: Why I am not a vegan
I remember a study on ancient human remains that found a lot of grass and plant matter in the remains! Humans have always loved eating veggies!

(Remnants of plants found stuck between teeth if I remember correctly)
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02-22-2021, 08:09 PM,
RE: Why I am not a vegan
(02-22-2021, 07:48 PM)Diana Wrote:  
(02-22-2021, 06:45 PM)confusedseeker Wrote:  I definitely think some people can handle being vegan, some people are genetically able and genetically gifted.  But the human body is designed to digest animal protein, fats, and micronutrients.  This is especially the case with Omega 3s, DHA/EPA, which are most easily digestible from animals.

The following is just one reference and if you don't believe this, I can find others. The human body was not designed to eat meat. Maybe the recent popularity of the keto diet sparked the idea. This is not to say that your personal choices don't matter. I just want to give you the facts about the human body.



Quote:The Truth About Humans and Eating Meat

What is the natural human diet? Are humans natural meat-eaters? Quick test: When you see dead animals on the side of the road, are you tempted to stop and snack on them? Do you daydream about killing cows with your bare hands and eating them raw? If you answered “no” to these questions, then, like it or not, you’re an herbivore.

The following points help prove that a natural human diet is, in fact, vegan—and that enslaving animals, stealing their milk and eggs, and killing them simply isn’t what nature intended.

Think you’re a paleo caveman or -woman? Well …
Although many humans choose to eat both plants and meat, earning us the dubious title of “omnivore,” we’re anatomically herbivorous. The good news is that if you want to eat like our ancestors, you still can: Nuts, vegetables, fruit, and legumes are the basis of a healthy vegan lifestyle.

Our Teeth, Jaws, and Nails
Humans have short, soft fingernails and small “canine” teeth. In contrast, carnivores all have sharp claws and large canine teeth that are capable of tearing flesh.

Carnivores’ jaws move only up and down, requiring them to tear chunks of flesh from their prey and swallow them whole. Humans and other herbivores can move their jaws up and down and from side to side, allowing them to grind up fruit and vegetables with their back teeth. Like other herbivores’ teeth, humans’ back molars are flat for grinding fibrous plant foods.

Dr. Richard Leakey, a renowned anthropologist, summarizes, “You can’t tear flesh by hand, you can’t tear hide by hand. Our anterior teeth are not suited for tearing flesh or hide. We don’t have large canine teeth, and we wouldn’t have been able to deal with food sources that require those large canines.”

Stomach Acidity
Carnivorous animals swallow their food whole, relying on extremely acidic stomach juices to break down flesh and kill the dangerous bacteria in it, which would otherwise sicken or kill them. Our stomach acids are much weaker in comparison, because strong acids aren’t needed to digest prechewed fruits and vegetables.

Intestinal Length
Animals who hunt have short intestinal tracts and colons that allow meat to pass through their bodies relatively quickly, before it can rot and cause illness. Humans’ intestinal tracts are much longer than those of carnivores of comparable size. Longer intestines allow the body more time to break down fiber and absorb the nutrients from plant-based foods, but they make it dangerous for humans to eat meat. The bacteria in meat have extra time to multiply during the long trip through the digestive system, increasing the risk of food poisoning. Meat actually begins to rot while it makes its way through human intestines, which increases the risk of developing colon cancer.

Human Evolution and the Rise of Meat-Heavy Diets
If it’s so unhealthy and unnatural for humans to eat meat, why did our ancestors sometimes turn to flesh for sustenance? Author of the book The Power of Your Plate, Dr. Neal Barnard, talks about humans’ early diet, explaining that we “had diets very much like other great apes, which is to say a largely plant-based diet …. [M]eat-eating probably began by scavenging—eating the leftovers that carnivores had left behind. However, our bodies have never adapted to it. To this day, meat-eaters have a higher incidence of heart disease, cancer, diabetes, and other problems.”

Briana Pobiner, paleoanthropologist at the Smithsonian’s National Museum of Natural History, adds, “[F]ruit and different plants and other things that we may have eaten maybe became less available. . . . The meat-eating that we do, or that our ancestors did even back to the earliest time we were eating meat, is culturally mediated. You need some kind of processing technology in order to eat meat .… So I don’t necessarily think we are hardwired to eat meat.”

There’s Something About Dairy
Humans started domesticating cattle only 10,000 years ago. Until then, children who stopped breastfeeding also stopped making the enzyme lactase and became lactose intolerant. After the domestication of cattle, however, the human digestive tract began to process dairy “products.” Groups who do not rely on cattle—like the Pima tribe, the Chinese and Thai, and the Bantu of West Africa—continue to be lactose intolerant today.

The Unfortunate Modern Diet
Until recently, only the wealthiest people could afford to feed, raise, and slaughter animals for meat, while everyone else ate mostly plant foods. Consequently, prior to the 20th century, only the rich were plagued routinely with diseases such as heart disease and obesity.

Now that animal flesh has become relatively cheap and is easily available (thanks to the cruel, cost-cutting practices of farming), deadly ailments such as heart disease, strokes, cancer, diabetes, and obesity have spread to people across the socio-economic spectrum. And as the Western lifestyle spills over into less-developed areas of Asia and Africa, people there, too, have begun to suffer and die from diseases associated with meat-based diets.

When humans consume animal protein, research shows a link to cancer of the colon, breast, prostate, and pancreas. According to nutrition expert T. Colin Campbell, the director of the Cornell-China-Oxford Project on Nutrition, Health, and the Environment, “In the next ten years, one of the things you’re bound to hear is that animal protein . . . is one of the most toxic nutrients of all that can be considered.”

https://www.peta.org/living/food/really-natural-truth-humans-eating-meat/

All of those are true. However, Orion 4D STS might have re-engineered our bodies for eating in omnivore style. For making our lives more difficult and prone to diseases. Who knows.  
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02-22-2021, 08:15 PM, (This post was last modified: 02-22-2021, 08:24 PM by MrWho.)
RE: Why I am not a vegan
I know there a billions of people who live eating almost no animal products. (And they are fine.)

Western culture forgets eating meat isn't an option everywhere.
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Diana
02-22-2021, 09:29 PM, (This post was last modified: 02-22-2021, 09:35 PM by confusedseeker.)
RE: Why I am not a vegan
Humans are built to be omnivores. Plant eaters have huge digestive tracts, look at a cow, they have GIGANTIC digestive systems to convert that energy (up to four stomachs I believe); carnivores have relatively short digestive tracts, but much closer to humans. Humans are somewhere in the middle, but the micronutrients our body needs often comes most efficiently from animals (K2, DHA/EPA, collagen, Vitamin b12...many vegans need to supplement B12, some even get injections...some are genetically gifted). The worst thing for us, however, are vegetable oils..stay the heck away from that stuff. Avocado oil and Olive oil are fine though. Too much Omega 6 is bad news.

I would say a Carnivore diet is healthier than a vegan diet, but I think either extreme isn't great for us. You want to eat mostly organic (no pesticides), a good amount of seafood (DHA/epa, omega 3), grass fed local meat, raw dairy is great if you can handle it. Nothing is better than healthy animal fats, we weren't meant to eat so much starch and carbs.

This is probably the best book on nutrition around, so many copycats:

Weston A Price: Nutrition and Physical Degeneration

https://www.amazon.com/Nutrition-Physical-Degeneration-Weston-Price/

Here is the book online for free: http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks02/0200251h.html
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02-22-2021, 09:31 PM, (This post was last modified: 02-22-2021, 09:45 PM by confusedseeker.)
RE: Why I am not a vegan
(02-22-2021, 08:15 PM)MrWho Wrote:  I know there a billions of people who live eating almost no animal products. (And they are fine.)

Western culture forgets eating meat isn't an option everywhere.

Well I can tell you that I'm Indian, and Indians have a very high population of vegans/vegetarians.  They also have a very, very high population of anemic women. Up to 52% in India:

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/isrn/2012/765476/

Sure, you can survive off these diets, but there are animal foods that are so rich in micronutrients and bioavailable protein, it's not really ideal to ignore them. A cage free egg every once in a while, or some salmon 2-3x a week will go a longggg way.
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02-22-2021, 10:59 PM,
RE: Why I am not a vegan
(02-22-2021, 09:31 PM)confusedseeker Wrote:  Well I can tell you that I'm Indian, and Indians have a very high population of vegans/vegetarians.  They also have a very, very high population of anemic women. Up to 52% in India...

That is likely the traditional cultural diet not including certain foods. A rich food source of B-12 is tempe (fermented soybeans). Iron sources: lentils, chickpeas, beans, tofu, cashew nuts, chia seeds, ground linseed, hemp seeds, pumpkin seeds, kale, dried apricots and figs, raisins, quinoa.


(02-22-2021, 09:31 PM)confusedseeker Wrote:  Sure, you can survive off these diets, but there are animal foods that are so rich in micronutrients and bioavailable protein, it's not really ideal to ignore them.  A cage free egg every once in a while, or some salmon 2-3x a week will go a longggg way.

You are entitled to your opinion as we all are. My perspective goes beyond what is just good for me (and again, a vegan diet is good for me so I am not ignoring self). My concern extends to the health of the planet, and keeping animals enslaved for our use, to mention a couple of things. There is a lot involved in making choices in this world today regarding how we feed everyone and harmonize with the ecosystem.
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02-22-2021, 11:15 PM, (This post was last modified: 02-22-2021, 11:16 PM by confusedseeker.)
RE: Why I am not a vegan
(02-22-2021, 10:59 PM)Diana Wrote:  
(02-22-2021, 09:31 PM)confusedseeker Wrote:  Well I can tell you that I'm Indian, and Indians have a very high population of vegans/vegetarians.  They also have a very, very high population of anemic women. Up to 52% in India...

That is likely the traditional cultural diet not including certain foods. A rich food source of B-12 is tempe (fermented soybeans). Iron sources: lentils, chickpeas, beans, tofu, cashew nuts, chia seeds, ground linseed, hemp seeds, pumpkin seeds, kale, dried apricots and figs, raisins, quinoa.




(02-22-2021, 09:31 PM)confusedseeker Wrote:  Sure, you can survive off these diets, but there are animal foods that are so rich in micronutrients and bioavailable protein, it's not really ideal to ignore them.  A cage free egg every once in a while, or some salmon 2-3x a week will go a longggg way.

You are entitled to your opinion as we all are. My perspective goes beyond what is just good for me (and again, a vegan diet is good for me so I am not ignoring self). My concern extends to the health of the planet, and keeping animals enslaved for our use, to mention a couple of things. There is a lot involved in making choices in this world today regarding how we feed everyone and harmonize with the ecosystem.

I think as long as vegan/vegetarian diets aren't forced on anyone, go for it.  I don't like enslaving animals either, so I try to eat mostly free range, locally raised food products.  Keep in mind, when you eat a lot of vegetables, a lot of animals are killed (literally tons) in the collection of the food and grains. If it's not organic, then you have even animals killed and damage done (I'm assuming most on here eat organic). Best thing for the planet is smaller, local farming, and there are a regenerative soil techniques that make it sustainable as well.
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MrWho
02-23-2021, 12:25 AM,
RE: Why I am not a vegan
I am so with you, confusedseeker, on local farming, if only we could get rid of industrial farming. It’s a complex issue since we are so numerous on Earth. If we were fewer, then not being vegan in the way you describe would mean that way fewer animals would be needed.
I feel, unless you live in very cold zones of the Earth, we could in fact be at least vegetarians, but we could , I think , also eat less. I am surprised at how well my body functions with in fact way less calories than a standard nutritionist would prescribe.
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MrWho
02-23-2021, 12:31 AM,
RE: Why I am not a vegan
Let's be truly honest with humans and diet. Or just about anything related to humanity.

We tend to be opportunists. Rarely will you see any segment of humanity pass up an opportunity. Especially in our materialistic and "orange ray" driven society currently.
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02-23-2021, 12:32 AM,
RE: Why I am not a vegan
(02-23-2021, 12:25 AM)flofrog Wrote:  I am so with you, confusedseeker, on local farming, if only we could get rid of industrial farming. It’s a complex issue since we are so numerous on Earth. If we were fewer, then not being  vegan in the way you describe would mean that way fewer animals would be needed.
I feel, unless you live in very cold zones of the Earth, we could in fact be at least vegetarians, but we could , I think , also eat less. I am surprised at how well my body functions with in fact way  less calories than a standard nutritionist would prescribe.


I have learned to reduce my consumption by a lot. I totally agree!
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flofrog
02-23-2021, 01:17 AM,
RE: Why I am not a vegan
(02-23-2021, 12:25 AM)flofrog Wrote:  I am so with you, confusedseeker, on local farming, if only we could get rid of industrial farming. It’s a complex issue since we are so numerous on Earth. If we were fewer, then not being  vegan in the way you describe would mean that way fewer animals would be needed.
I feel, unless you live in very cold zones of the Earth, we could in fact be at least vegetarians, but we could , I think , also eat less. I am surprised at how well my body functions with in fact way  less calories than a standard nutritionist would prescribe.

I actually think one of the best things one can do is have children and raise them with love and direction and morality, but that's a different issue. So I don't think we need to depopulate. However, I do think we could consume less. I try to fast for 24-48 hours a week. The benefits of fasting are pretty numerous, with data to prove it.
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02-23-2021, 05:28 PM,
RE: Why I am not a vegan
(02-11-2021, 03:57 PM)Patrick Wrote:  In our modern society, there is no need to consume animal products anymore.  It's important when reading the research on the subject to take the modern context into account.  By modern I do not mean only a question of technology, like B12 pills, but a question of the science and knowledge that gives us the information required to be healthy without any animal sources.  That is because, even without technology, B12 for example can be gotten from bacterial sources.  But we first need to know what B12 is and why it might be an issue if you stop consumption of all animal sources.

Now the societal debate is going to resolve around "if" and "how" we want to transit away from animal products.  This, in my opinion, is where many people are underestimating the difficulty.

The "how" is going to be a challenge for sure.  It will take some time before everything sold in groceries and everything served in restaurants is no longer sourced from animals and also happens to meet everyone expectations.

Regarding the "if", is there anyone in these forums who would prefer this process not to start at all ?  It would require zero effort from anyone and there is nothing that needs to change in your life at all.  This process will take generations and you will be able to finish your current incarnation while still eating meat no problems.  I myself still consume animal products, yet I have zero problem with society transiting away from it.
Im much like you.

Transiting but slowly. Change I make fast never works when it comes to food.
I lost my home raised small farm source due to a divorce so I have had to speed up the process.

For anyone wanting to learn better vegetarian cooking, hot tip:
I started getting hello fresh last year as they offer lots of vegetarian recipes with nutritional breakdown.

My god they are good.
I had one last night I would be fine eating everyday for the rest of my life it was so good, and healthy.

I know for me minimizing meat consumption was always hindered by not having any idea what recipes would taste good and still wanting the meal experience most of us grew up with that satiates. Especially so I could continue hosting people for community.

These meal boxes are going to be very helpful in helping people transition if they feel called to.

I’m not sure I would ever go vegan. I love eggs and see lots of ranging happy chickens at the farms I go to. Still all progress is progress.
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flofrog
02-24-2021, 04:38 AM,
RE: Why I am not a vegan
Curious thread. I always found it peculiar when people begin to praise one path (theirs) over the others almost as gospel, failing to realize truths and paths are different. Listen to yourself and follow that advice, is my take on this. Each and every one of the diets is capable of forming deep personal distortions. Going for history, nutritional science, or even spirituality of others is often a road laid with confusion. If a diet makes one's mind, body and spirit feel good, why all the judgement? There's always lessons set up for one self to digest Wink which are usually unperceivable from the external 3D point of view.
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02-24-2021, 10:01 AM, (This post was last modified: 02-24-2021, 10:26 AM by Minyatur.)
RE: Why I am not a vegan
(02-24-2021, 04:38 AM)LeiwoUnion Wrote:  Curious thread. I always found it peculiar when people begin to praise one path (theirs) over the others almost as gospel, failing to realize truths and paths are different. Listen to yourself and follow that advice, is my take on this. Each and every one of the diets is capable of forming deep personal distortions. Going for history, nutritional science, or even spirituality of others is often a road laid with confusion. If a diet makes one's mind, body and spirit feel good, why all the judgement? There's always lessons set up for one self to digest Wink which are usually unperceivable from the external 3D point of view.

I think the point is more that from the vegan perspective, they do not see the separation of specie as a reason to not treat another animal specie as one of their own.

So while a lot of people wonder why one should have judgment in regard to another's diet, I think most people actually also do feel judgment whenever someone's diet would go against their own moral code. For example if anyone learns that some people in their town are cannibalistic, ate their own children or other people's children, or ate some dogs and cats, then they would probably feel judgment. These examples may seem extreme and one would think they do not apply for comparison, but I believe that is how a vegan feels about it. They hold a perspective of wanting to bond with all living things. They recognize all things as one family and as such feel the same empathy they would feel for the suffering of another human, if not perhaps even more because of the lack of the inherent greater responsibility of a human's in their own life.

Now I am not saying whether they are right or not, or if this can be extended to everyone realistically, but I do think their perspective makes a whole lot of sense. I don't think we can avoid feeling an ounce of judgment when someone does something we believe internally to be morally wrong. Who says that it is not a valid way to survive in the world to beat up and kill others to take their things, like you see a car you like and you just take your knife out and go take it. To certain people this is acceptable, so why would I judge them and impose an idea that they should work and contribute to society to earn something? Well I personally would not be well with myself doing that, then the work of acceptance is more along the lines of understanding why I am not over that either in realizing the oneness of these other-selves and myself, but it is clearly a work to be done and an expectation to not feel an ounce of judgment at first is unrealistic.

When things involve one's behaviors with others and the creating of suffering, then I believe judgment is most natural. Vegans merely extend the circle of their empathic inclusivity wider than most.

Let no consideration of bird or beast, darkness or light, shape or shadow keep any which seeks from the central consideration of unity.
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02-24-2021, 11:25 AM, (This post was last modified: 02-24-2021, 12:21 PM by Diana.)
RE: Why I am not a vegan
@ Minyatur: Thank you for your understanding.

(02-24-2021, 04:38 AM)LeiwoUnion Wrote:  Curious thread. I always found it peculiar when people begin to praise one path (theirs) over the others almost as gospel, failing to realize truths and paths are different. Listen to yourself and follow that advice, is my take on this. Each and every one of the diets is capable of forming deep personal distortions. Going for history, nutritional science, or even spirituality of others is often a road laid with confusion. If a diet makes one's mind, body and spirit feel good, why all the judgement? There's always lessons set up for one self to digest Wink which are usually unperceivable from the external 3D point of view.

I can only speak for myself on this. I am actually not judging anyone when I talk about being vegan. I only offer my perspective because I think it is important. Especially since the whole world basically is held within this ingrained way of thinking and surviving which is based on outdated modes, which are, by the way, destroying our planet. This is not a judgment but a fact. Humans are not the only life forms here, including the life form which is this planet we live on, and there is responsibility and accountability to consider for the life forms who are capable of choice (us).

To be fair and honest, I WAS a bit judgmental when I first came here in 2011. I am absolutely detached in my life and never talk about it unless asked (and even then, no judgments), but when I came here, to a "spiritual" site (my first ever and only forum experience), I was taken aback that everyone didn't agree that eating animals was not in the best interest of any spiritual path for a plethora of reasons. I had been in a couple of other "spiritual" groups, and of course I know about many so-called masters such as Yogananda etc., so I thought it was a no-brainer. I even said as much. But interacting here expanded my perception on the subject. It didn't change my own convictions, but it gave me a better understanding of others.

Ultimately, I do not get "caught up in the maelstrom." But I do, without having to fix anything, hope humanity will evolve soon and stop using and abusing other life forms. As for the diet, of course it is personal. But each person may consider more than just themselves when making choices. Factory farming (animals), for example, is the biggest cause of greenhouse gases. We are losing our oxygen supply by cutting down rain forest to graze cattle. We are polluting the oceans and hurting ocean life, and, fishing certain species to near extinction. There are many people starving in this world and a plant-based diet would rectify that (the United Nations put out a statement to this effect s few years ago). These are just a few considerations.

So, I'm not judging, but hoping, humanity wakes up. Perhaps that is selfish of me because it does hurt to see suffering. But cosmically speaking, I think it matters what we do even if it is transient or fleeting in the bigger scheme of things. We "add our light to the sum of light," one of my favorite movie lines (The Year of Living Dangerously).
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flofrog, Minyatur, Patrick, sillypumpkins
02-24-2021, 12:23 PM,
RE: Why I am not a vegan
I hope I am not derailing the thread too much here, but here is something else to add about the psyche of animals..

We all have heard of, for example, cows making a circle around a hurt child to protect the child, or dolphins helping a swimmer in difficulty, or pigs nuzzling staff even when they are on the moving carpet in a slaughter factory..

I know someone who has two horses that she trails herself to shows. She cares immensely for those two horses and she always talks about what they are thinking, what they fear, and what makes them happy etc.. Two weeks ago, she had a lady highly recommended by friends, who transmits the thoughts of horses or dogs etc.. So she wanted the lady to start with her older horse, but the lady said the other one, Elegant wants to talk first. Elegant is the younger horse, a bit full of himself. And the lady says, do you want to lease him to a friend who cannot afford a good horse such as Elegant, for a smaller lease ? So the owner was pretty astounded, she said yes. So the lady said ok Elegant is fine with it, he likes her, but he doesn't want to be sold because he is very attached to you.
For the second horse, the owner had bought him a stuffed animal, which was a small elephant to put in his stall, horses like to have toys. So the lady said, the older horse says I really love this elephant, and when she trails me, could she put it next to me during the trip. My friend, who is a sap like me, started to cry.

But this gives much thought about Buddhism which considers that animals are not sentient beings.... LOL
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Diana, MrWho
02-24-2021, 12:28 PM, (This post was last modified: 02-24-2021, 12:31 PM by MrWho.)
RE: Why I am not a vegan
All things have awareness to some degree or another. Even plants and minerals.

Through "investment" it is possible to raise their awareness.

Some animals are very close to or far into 3rd density.

Pets especially! Some are more like friends honestly. A strong mutual relationship.

I have a strong relationship to my Kia soul! We take care of eachother.
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flofrog
02-24-2021, 12:35 PM,
RE: Why I am not a vegan
(02-24-2021, 12:28 PM)MrWho Wrote:  All things have awareness to some degree or another. Even plants and minerals.

Through "investment" it is possible to raise their awareness.

Some animals are very close to or far into 3rd density.

Pets especially! Some are more like friends honestly. A strong mutual relationship.

I have a strong relationship to my Kia soul! We take care of eachother.

I think its a good idea to be a bit cautious in judging how much awareness a certain life form has.

From a certain perspective, plants and animals have considerably more awareness than most humans.

The problem lies in the lack of understanding of HUMAN consciousness and not being aware that our judgement is a mere projection.

Most humans never have experienced,plant or animal consciousness,first hand, so.its purely speculative and a projection of our own limitations...
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02-24-2021, 12:44 PM,
RE: Why I am not a vegan
(02-24-2021, 12:23 PM)flofrog Wrote:  But this gives much thought about Buddhism which considers that animals are not sentient beings....  LOL

Where did you get that from?

I googled because found that strange, but the wikipedia page on Animals in Buddhism says the opposite:
Quote:Animals have always been regarded in Buddhist thought as sentient beings. Furthermore, animals possess Buddha nature (according to the Mahāyāna school) and therefore potential for enlightenment. Moreover, the doctrine of rebirth held that any human could be reborn as animal, and any animal could be reborn as a human. An animal might be a reborn dead relative, and anybody who looked far enough back through their series of lives might come to believe every animal to be a distant relative. The Buddha expounded that sentient beings currently living in the animal realm have been our mothers, brothers, sisters, fathers, children, friends in past rebirths. One could not, therefore, make a hard distinction between moral rules applicable to animals and those applicable to humans; ultimately humans and animals were part of a single family. They are all interconnected.

I know there are many branches to Buddhism, so maybe that is a specific one with those beliefs of animals not being sentient?

Seems like there are even branches of Buddhism (like Tibetan) that consider that some inanimate objects can be sentient, which is in line with what Ra said that in rare circumstances even minerals can reach harvestability for 3D.

Let no consideration of bird or beast, darkness or light, shape or shadow keep any which seeks from the central consideration of unity.
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MrWho
02-24-2021, 12:45 PM, (This post was last modified: 02-24-2021, 08:20 PM by MrWho.)
RE: Why I am not a vegan
https://www.lawofone.info/s/13#5

Quote:Questioner: Thank you. Can you tell me of the earliest, first known thing in the creation?

Ra: I am Ra. The first known thing in the creation is infinity. The infinity is creation."

13.6 "Questioner: From this infinity then must have come what we experience as creation. What was the next step or the next evolvement?

Ra: I am Ra. Infinity became aware. This was the next step.

Technically consuming anything can be considered cannibalism.

A grotesque thought experiment I know.

All is one. We are infinitely aware. If we allow ourselves. Big Grin
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