Why the hate for wisdom?
06-03-2019, 01:27 AM, (This post was last modified: 06-03-2019, 08:20 PM by Minyatur.)
RE: Why the hate for wisdom?
(05-18-2019, 08:23 AM)Bring4th_Jade Wrote:  One of those fallacies is that there are people who are here to learn "wisdom over love".

Sorry to bump but I thought this quote apply:

Quote:Some entities seek to balance their open and loving hearts with more wisdom. Other wise souls come into incarnation hoping to break open their hearts and link that unconditional love vibration with wisdom in a more balanced and equal fashion. There are also some who seek the right use of power, balancing it either with love or with wisdom or with both. These are the usual areas of which concern the soul going into incarnation. - Q'uo

Also I don't think anyone thinks wisdom "over" love, it is love that seeks wisdom.

Anyhow, I think the Earth is a place with many potentials, so there can really be multiple reasons some incarnate. While it is true that the following density is 4D, the veil is really what offers the potential for desired experiences that cannot be had without it.

Someone who is wisdom oriented probably is here to balance it with love and someone who is love oriented is probably here to balance it with wisdom. So it is designed to be the opposite of what you have a natural tendency toward, else you would not need lessons.

I think someone that is here to balance wisdom with love is more likely to have a softer incarnation with little programmed catalysts so that it opens itself from a more balanced state to the stuggle of others, the rarer catalysts are there more so that the entity does not forget what struggle or pain can be. While someone that is here to balance its love with wisdom is more likely to have an harsher incarnation and experience a lot of struggle and disharmony, so that it develops an understanding of the need of wisdom to inform love. In case of wanderers, I would think that later is more common due to that an entity very open in love will deeply hurt itself from a confused state in lacking a clear perception of where others stand at and why they are not open in the same fashion. It seems to often start with parents that will be unlike what you need.

Now, I don't claim that my incarnation is meant to balance my love with wisdom. I always had a natural tendency toward understanding and it is clear to me in looking at my life what my incarnation works, truly a work of art in its design. Still though, balancing wisdom with love does not deny either to offer wisdom to those who balance the opposite. Most of the time, it seems that the wisdom of forgiveness/acceptance is what is called for, because it is what stops the wheel of karma. Due to the veil, it is very easy from an emotional perspective to get stuck in karma, because to forgive you need to step back from what you feel and seek to understand and accept. If you are just focused on feeling, then it is easy to remain stuck in confused feelings with no way out, living a paradox.

There is no self in the sense of separate individuality, yet there is one prevailing identity.
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06-03-2019, 02:30 AM,
RE: Why the hate for wisdom?
Wow, Minyatur. What you said makes me not really look forward to fifth density, where you learn wisdom.

You mentioned that balancing love with wisdom is a harsher incarnation.

Ra says fifth density is incredibly free.

Does this mean that after a very loving fourth density, you have to face unpleasant truths in fifth density?
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06-03-2019, 09:20 AM, (This post was last modified: 06-03-2019, 11:33 AM by Minyatur.)
RE: Why the hate for wisdom?
(06-03-2019, 02:30 AM)IndigoGeminiWolf Wrote:  Wow, Minyatur. What you said makes me not really look forward to fifth density, where you learn wisdom.

You mentioned that balancing love with wisdom is a harsher incarnation.

Ra says fifth density is incredibly free.

Does this mean that after a very loving fourth density, you have to face unpleasant truths in fifth density?

Well you can consider that the lessons of wisdom end with harvesting into the density of Unity, which equally signifies all things. So I think the end of 5D is realizing the essence that all things really are. You learn of the deeper mechanics of manifestation and see much more the effect of what you do or did, but realize that for everything you put out there is a counter balance and so you cannot prevent anything. There will always be infinite opportunity and all colors are part of Unity. I think how things really work is disheartening to an entity that harvests from 4D, but it will learn to accept and find love in the transcendant interconnection that manifests Infinity.

I think in 6D you have to balance wisdom with love and love with wisdom because things have to move forward in time. Your love needs to grow as balanced with wisdom and your wisdom needs to not keep you stuck from playing the game of duality and paradox. What you contain needs to be expressed even if you know better.

There seems to be a misconception that balancing wisdom with love is about not being compassionate toward others, while I think it is more about balancing the lower rays. Let's say that you contain anger but in your wisdom you know that anger is not justified and so refrain from allowing yourself the right to live this anger. To more fully connect to unconditional love starts with what you contain, so you have to accept this love and allow it its need to express and be released. If you disallow yourself to live these things, you become less emotional in general and so your energy field may be more balanced than another but it won't either be very open. So in general balancing love with wisdom is about balancing your energy field into alignment and balancing wisdom with love is about not disallowing yourself to feel whatever color of what you feel or to be open to contain an energy. While in wisdom anger may seem unjustified, in Unity and love it is valid to have its place within things and that is what it means to be unconditional/compassionate toward it.

There is no self in the sense of separate individuality, yet there is one prevailing identity.
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06-11-2019, 03:45 PM,
RE: Why the hate for wisdom?
(05-31-2019, 03:53 PM)Louisabell Wrote:  First off I want to point out that freedom of speech does not entail harrasment, incitement of violence, conspiracy to commit crimes and threats of violence, so if a political party engages in that speech, it is not protected! They are committing a crime.

Trump is engaging in it, along with his followers. The speech does not need to directly call for violence against a certain demographic.

All it needs to do is to vilify that demographic and blame whatever on them. Just like what is happening. Eventually some will act on the accumulated hate.

Quote:I could also ask you, will you become authoritarian to stop the authoritarians? Also a paradox.

Which is solved in 6th density, with 6th density principles...

Obligatorily so, since the 6d entity also needs some discipline in order to go forward starting from 6d.

That said, there is no way a 4d positive society can accept and accommodate those who are acting as negative and advocating negativity amidst them. Authoritarianism or not, unless the collective energy and love of the society cannot accept and transform the individual, they would eventually break up with those people and outcast them. Because such a situation cannot be sustained. Same or a negative 4d society in respect to an entity which is advocating positivity.

Exactly same principle in in play in between the wars in between Confederation and orion - because the confederation cannot accept what orion is suggesting, they lose polarity. But they cannot accept it and stay positive.

Quote:Lots of royal families, theocracies and military coups in the middle east - don't think those forms of power are big on the whole universal freedom of speech thing.

Numerous middle eastern countries were semi-socialist democracies in their time. From Iraq to Iran to Syria, to Egypt. All of which either got US backed coups and then islamicizationor direct islamicization.

Quote:Listening to the person in the room holding the gun is not "freedom of speech". You won't see them coming, and there will be little you can do to stop them, but your fear of them will evidently make you give up your ideals. Looks to me like they've already won.

Yeah...

This sensitivity sounds so right and and the principle sounds so right until you find yourself in a society where reactionaries who use freedom of speech to organize and then take over your society start ending your freedom of speech.

When you live through it, you suddenly see it differently.

You and a lot of other people who subscribe to this purity of usage of freedom of speech, have the opinion that freedom of speech is something that will endure and will just stay, if you just protect it. You treat it as if it was a 'god given right'. Natural in US political ideology spectrum in a way.

However the practical reality is that those who want to end your freedom of speech, do end it after taking over power by using that freedom of speech. It does not just endure and stay, and all attempts to protect freedom of speech further by those who protected the freedom of speech of those people who used freedom of speech for organizing a reactionary takeover of the society, are just frustrated by those reactionary forces.

Quote:But since most people here are agreeing with your arguments, I will end my contributions here. Let's just hope what is politically correct and patriotic is what is morally right, and that it stays that way indefinitely in the future.

This is not a matter of agreeing/disagreeing, neither it is a matter that pertains to this forum.

People like you dont seem to realize that this problem is an actual problem that is in your hands, inside your society, and your future will be determined by this. Its not something that will stay in the realm of principles or ideologies, it will shape your next 20-30 years at least. That is, if not the next 100 years or more.

Quote:I guess in the absence of universal principles, we always have hope to fall back on.

Let me put it into a non-conceptual, non-philosophical, solid practical context:

If and when these alt-right people who are increasingly going extreme get sufficient power, you will be considered a questionable person who engages in heretical spiritual material. They will seek to not only repress and shape you as they want, and they will definitely target spiritual communities, leave aside this particular forum.

At that point, no amount of freedom of speech advocacy will do any good, because these people just dont care about your freedom of speech.

That is the real question facing you people.
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09-07-2019, 12:21 PM,
RE: Why the hate for wisdom?
(05-18-2019, 09:12 PM)Glow Wrote:  
(05-18-2019, 08:15 PM)Cyan Wrote:  I feel like we should love the choice of those who choose wisdom over love and let them go where their choice takes them and appreciate them for illuminating the hard for us places of creation so we can choose love over wisdom.

It seems hate for the choice of wisdom before love is not the love of all we should try to strive for, the way I see it we're too focused on what is good for others and not enough on what is our own plan, but that seems to be the case from what I can see.

I don’t know where your anyone is seeing hate.

This is a service to others oriented forum by design so wisdom over love is not encouraged, that is not the same as hate.

I honestly disagree. This forum by the nature of LOO should encourage and include discussion with STO and STS. All is one and one is all. Reading your posts, sometimes i feel that you have been creating a division simply because of the thought that this forum leans towards to STO. I don't think that is beneficial at all. I learnt the most and fastest from the post "Greeting from the Dark". Even though I don't identify all that the then Zaxon had expressed, I enjoyed understanding things from all perspective. The work is always to look within and hold the ground not to control anything. Isn't control a tool of STS not STO? I personally polarized toward to STO and the understanding of all perspectives and pointviews would only help myself polarize more toward to STO.
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09-07-2019, 12:27 PM,
RE: Why the hate for wisdom?
(09-07-2019, 12:21 PM)Scah Wrote:  
(05-18-2019, 09:12 PM)Glow Wrote:  
(05-18-2019, 08:15 PM)Cyan Wrote:  I feel like we should love the choice of those who choose wisdom over love and let them go where their choice takes them and appreciate them for illuminating the hard for us places of creation so we can choose love over wisdom.

It seems hate for the choice of wisdom before love is not the love of all we should try to strive for, the way I see it we're too focused on what is good for others and not enough on what is our own plan, but that seems to be the case from what I can see.

I don’t know where your anyone is seeing hate.

This is a service to others oriented forum by design so wisdom over love is not encouraged, that is not the same as hate.

I honestly disagree. This forum by the nature of LOO should encourage and include discussion with STO and STS. All is one and one is all. Reading your posts, sometimes i feel that you have been creating a division simply because of the thought that this forum leans towards to STO. I don't think that is beneficial at all. I learnt the most and fastest from the post "Greeting from the Dark". Even though I don't identify all that the then Zaxon had expressed, I enjoyed understanding things from all perspective. The work is always to look within and hold the ground not to control anything. Isn't control a tool of STS not STO? I personally polarized toward to STO and the understanding of all perspectives and pointviews would only help myself polarize more toward to STO.
Nice to meet you. I wasn’t trying to debate. Simply stating the people who channeled Ra and host this forum created it to be a certain way. A place for STO oriented discussion.
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09-07-2019, 12:34 PM,
RE: Why the hate for wisdom?
(05-19-2019, 01:48 AM)Glow Wrote:  
(05-19-2019, 01:34 AM)Relaxo Wrote:  Putting this out there for the mod team:

I've said this before in pm - now saying it here publicly - moderation is ridiculously lenient... newbies should be put on probation to show they can behave politely and in a civil manner... there should be a questionnaire asked to be read and signed; as well as reading and signing that you expressly agree with the forum guidelines

B4 - for years now has needed some form of 'gatekeeping'... because without it - there's no duty of care.

I like that idea not to keep people out but to streamline things.
This did used to be a place for wanderers to find refuge with a strong sto bias. That was the intention as I understood it. If people aren’t told that coming in it leaves the door open for the mission/aims of the forum to swing wildly to something much less than a refuge for sto wanderers.
Often something akin to combat or a 4chan reddit experience.

I really wish all of us can think about what this thread is teaching us. The only truth is that All is one and one is all. And now exclusion and probation are mentioned? I am not done reading this thread yet and I already see many opportunities and lessons to be learnt. I am sure when I find out why Speedforce is banned, there will be more lessions.
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09-07-2019, 12:56 PM, (This post was last modified: 09-07-2019, 12:57 PM by Scah.)
RE: Why the hate for wisdom?
(05-19-2019, 07:56 AM)Cyan Wrote:  
(05-19-2019, 07:51 AM)IndigoGeminiWolf Wrote:  I'm not sure if the point of this thread is whether you are harvestable or not, or if it's having wisdom for wisdom's sake.
What is the ultimate goal? Is it to simply love wisdom?

I think it was best exemplified in the thread "People are plenty loving" I feel that light is missing more than love, love seems to be abundant but what lacks is discernement and light. I think for me, I seem to love wisdom more than hate wisdom as some here seem to, at least caution strongly against the use of light or wisdom before love or well, love. The way I see it im not worried about meeting the harvest, to me it seems like what lacks most in the LL community is light, not love, so im leaning in that direction, tho im also thinking of intentionaly polarizing STS just for the opportunity so my results may vary from yours.


Quote:In being harvestable, as I mentioned in another thread, it's about acceptance. The more you can accept, the more your chakras are aligned.
Despite all the negativity floating around here, I still feel pretty good. Usually, when you feel good you are in line with your higher self.

It seems that being in a state of acceptance about self and others is indeed the key to harvest, the more accepting you are the more able you are to align yourself with yourself and reach harvest, in which ever "side" you fall into, nasty thinking of sides to a universal paradise.


Quote:Is it that seeking wisdom before love sees love as folly?

I wouldnt say but love for other civilizations or soul groups seems to be when viewed from wisdom, folly, though i am unsure if this is true, it seems humanity would be better off serving humanity than say, the energy vampire planet, though service to them is offered by our greater understanding of ourselves, i dunno, hard topic.


Hi Cyan,

I am wondering if you don't mind elaborate what "light" is from your point of view?
I sort of understand it but never that solid.

Thank you
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09-07-2019, 01:02 PM,
RE: Why the hate for wisdom?
Apparently he threatened the moderators via private messages and that is why he was banned.

We actually over the years have had a lot of conversations not at all dismissing the service of sts part of self. This thread however occurred at a time where the forum was very heavy on the more combatant energies and many forum regulars left as a result.
It sucked. To see that light loving energy displaced due to the combat occurring here. No peace. Even the positive news thread was over taken and its poster left.

Seems others were bothered as you were so they left which is unfortunate but if you had been there the forum totality had been quite over taken, even positive unrelated threads spun into antagonism.

If only the angry combative remain because that is not what the gentle need then why have a forum created for them?
That is what this forum was for a haven by Carla's design. Angry and aggressive rules the rest of the world so if it comes to the haven being destroyed I am not sure there truly was any choice.

Honestly I got enough of this topic at the time so I will not be discussing it further myself.
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09-07-2019, 04:07 PM,
RE: Why the hate for wisdom?
(05-22-2019, 11:25 PM)Infinite Wrote:  
(05-22-2019, 07:39 PM)anagogy Wrote:  [Image: comedians-are-on-the-front-lines-in-the-...;amp;w=600]

Do you would defend the free speech of an Orion recipient? If not, you will understand why the free speech of far right people should not be allowed. Without limits it's impossible the basic civilizatory experience. And seems they will come us to another world war (as in the past). It always end like that.

I am assuming you have intended this question to be rhetorical but I don't think it should be a rhetorical question. If i assume wrong, please ignore this statement.

I don't know how anagogy would answer this but my answer is yes. It seems to me (after reading several old and new threads) that the only truth "All is one and one is all" would always be ignored when it comes to STS. Isn't STS communication or teaching also a catalyst for all? Also, if you polarize towards STO, wouldn't one of the lesson being having compassion and acceptance towards ALL?

Please let me know your opinions.

Thank you
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09-07-2019, 04:31 PM,
RE: Why the hate for wisdom?
I don't believe an STS being would accept an STO's compassion. And trying to force it on them is depolarizing.
Rather than acceptance towards, I'd say acceptance for. But you can't really accept everything the STS wants to do, like enslavement.

But this thread isn't about light = STS and love = STO I don't think. It's talking about seeking wisdom over love.

I think the order of the densities is there for a reason. Light without love is harsh.
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09-08-2019, 09:00 AM,
RE: Why the hate for wisdom?
It seems to me that STS oriented seekers on any forum in any organization, will be motivated to create chaos and division, to draw attention to themselves and to generate anxiety. It's low hanging fruit for a serious player, to mess with a forum comprised of many tolerant souls, but fun and good practice I'm sure. They are amateurs though, not even minor league players. These are certainly not dark adepts with some deep black wisdom for us.

You did not see Jim, Carla and Don flipping their attention to the "negative friend" when it arrived. You did not seem them giving it great space or exploring its point of view exhaustively. From my reading, they sought to protect themselves, solidifying ritual and asking Ra how to continue their work in spite of its distracting and dangerous presence.

Does evil not have its place in the world? Is its presence not foghorned into every aspect of our lives? Is it wrong to seek a space where the beautiful finds expression and support? I say it is not. We do these small STS players no favors by letting them spout. Kindly push them out of the little pond into the great sea where there are planes to crash,children to molest and corporations to run.
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09-08-2019, 09:54 AM, (This post was last modified: 09-08-2019, 10:08 AM by Infinite.)
RE: Why the hate for wisdom?
(09-07-2019, 04:07 PM)Scah Wrote:  I don't know how anagogy would answer this but my answer is yes. It seems to me (after reading several old and new threads) that the only truth "All is one and one is all" would always be ignored when it comes to STS. Isn't STS communication or teaching also a catalyst for all? Also, if you polarize towards STO, wouldn't one of the lesson being having compassion and acceptance towards ALL?

Quote:25.5 Questioner: You spoke of an Orion Confederation and a battle being fought between the Confederation and the Orion Confederation. Is it possible to convey any concept of how this battle is fought?

Ra: I am Ra. Picture, if you will, your mind. Picture it then in total unity with all other minds of your society. You are then single-minded and that which is a weak electrical charge in your physical illusion is now an enormously powerful machine whereby thoughts may be projected as things.

In this endeavor the Orion group charges or attacks the Confederation arms with light. The result, a stand-off, as you would call it, both energies being somewhat depleted by this and needing to regroup; the negative depleted through failure to manipulate, the positive depleted through failure to accept that which is given.

25.6 Questioner: Could you amplify the meaning of what you said by “failure to accept that which is given?”

Ra: I am Ra. At the level of time/space at which this takes place in the form of what you may call thought-war, the most accepting and loving energy would be to so love those who wished to manipulate that those entities were surrounded, engulfed, and transformed by positive energies.

This, however, being a battle of equals, the Confederation is aware that it cannot, on equal footing, allow itself to be manipulated in order to remain purely positive, for then though pure it would not be of any consequence, having been placed by the so-called powers of darkness under the heel, as you may say.

It is thus that those who deal with this thought-war must be defensive rather than accepting in order to preserve their usefulness in service to others. Thusly, they cannot accept fully what the Orion Confederation wishes to give, that being enslavement. Thusly, some polarity is lost due to this friction and both sides, if you will, must then regroup.


It has not been fruitful for either side. The only consequence which has been helpful is a balancing of the energies available to this planet so that these energies have less necessity to be balanced in this space/time, thus lessening the chances of planetary annihilation.

That occurs in any level. If the STO beings choose remains purely positive, the STS will enslave everyone. We can't avoid that because the nature of polarity will produce these frictions.

Of course we as 3D entities seeking STO path, we can't defends a war, only if the STS persons start one. But, the most common and legitm action is create laws to limitate the STS thinking on our society. However, as our planet has a mix of polarity, and the STO and STS thinking both are present, we have the scenario when discussions about politics are a constant.
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09-08-2019, 10:18 AM,
RE: Why the hate for wisdom?
(09-07-2019, 04:07 PM)Scah Wrote:  
(05-22-2019, 11:25 PM)Infinite Wrote:  
(05-22-2019, 07:39 PM)anagogy Wrote:  [Image: comedians-are-on-the-front-lines-in-the-...;amp;w=600]

Do you would defend the free speech of an Orion recipient? If not, you will understand why the free speech of far right people should not be allowed. Without limits it's impossible the basic civilizatory experience. And seems they will come us to another world war (as in the past). It always end like that.

I am assuming you have intended this question to be rhetorical but I don't think it should be a rhetorical question. If i assume wrong, please ignore this statement.

I don't know how anagogy would answer this but my answer is yes. It seems to me (after reading several old and new threads) that the only truth "All is one and one is all" would always be ignored when it comes to STS. Isn't STS communication or teaching also a catalyst for all? Also, if you polarize towards STO, wouldn't one of the lesson being having compassion and acceptance towards ALL?

Please let me know your opinions.

Thank you

Most speech is fine to my mind, for everyone has differing opinions. Those of STS orientation tend to have greater control of their speech, since they operate in deception and in order to deceive, one has to be diplomatic and reserved and appearing to be helping people.

However, those of STS orientation tend to have differences between their "diplomatic" speech and their actual activities. That's how you would determine how someone is potentially oriented. Tell you one thing and do another thing where that other thing bring about greater control.

"STS communication" doesn't teach much of anything. It's really the violent speech of those who are caught between STS and STO which is more informative..
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09-08-2019, 10:34 AM, (This post was last modified: 09-08-2019, 10:36 AM by Scah. Edit Reason: missing word )
RE: Why the hate for wisdom?
(09-08-2019, 09:54 AM)Infinite Wrote:  
(09-07-2019, 04:07 PM)Scah Wrote:  I don't know how anagogy would answer this but my answer is yes. It seems to me (after reading several old and new threads) that the only truth "All is one and one is all" would always be ignored when it comes to STS. Isn't STS communication or teaching also a catalyst for all? Also, if you polarize towards STO, wouldn't one of the lesson being having compassion and acceptance towards ALL?

Quote:25.5 Questioner: You spoke of an Orion Confederation and a battle being fought between the Confederation and the Orion Confederation. Is it possible to convey any concept of how this battle is fought?

Ra: I am Ra. Picture, if you will, your mind. Picture it then in total unity with all other minds of your society. You are then single-minded and that which is a weak electrical charge in your physical illusion is now an enormously powerful machine whereby thoughts may be projected as things.

In this endeavor the Orion group charges or attacks the Confederation arms with light. The result, a stand-off, as you would call it, both energies being somewhat depleted by this and needing to regroup; the negative depleted through failure to manipulate, the positive depleted through failure to accept that which is given.

25.6 Questioner: Could you amplify the meaning of what you said by “failure to accept that which is given?”

Ra: I am Ra. At the level of time/space at which this takes place in the form of what you may call thought-war, the most accepting and loving energy would be to so love those who wished to manipulate that those entities were surrounded, engulfed, and transformed by positive energies.

This, however, being a battle of equals, the Confederation is aware that it cannot, on equal footing, allow itself to be manipulated in order to remain purely positive, for then though pure it would not be of any consequence, having been placed by the so-called powers of darkness under the heel, as you may say.

It is thus that those who deal with this thought-war must be defensive rather than accepting in order to preserve their usefulness in service to others. Thusly, they cannot accept fully what the Orion Confederation wishes to give, that being enslavement. Thusly, some polarity is lost due to this friction and both sides, if you will, must then regroup.


It has not been fruitful for either side. The only consequence which has been helpful is a balancing of the energies available to this planet so that these energies have less necessity to be balanced in this space/time, thus lessening the chances of planetary annihilation.

That occurs in any level. If the STO beings choose remains purely positive, the STS will enslave everyone. We can't avoid that because the nature of polarity will produce these frictions.

Of course we as 3D entities seeking STO path, we can't defends a war, only if the STS persons start one. But, the most common and legitm action is create laws to limitate the STS thinking on our society. However, as our planet has a mix of polarity, and the STO and STS thinking both are present, we have the scenario when discussions about politics are a constant.

Thank you, Infinite, for the detail reply. It's always great to revisit passages from Ra's messages.

I agree that one should not accept (receive: I find this word more accurate in this discussion) what is provided by STS. I am still pondering if one should be open to accept the existence of STS and the existence of STS teachings. For example, I do find the Discipline attitude that STS stress on very similar to the Discipline (or strong Will) in Ra's messages.

In regards to creating law to limit STS thinking, I am not too sure about that because the STS ones are cunning in using laws as weapon to influence the veiled 3D entities. Case in point, https://www.wired.com/story/hulk-hogan-gawker-netflix-documentary/

I work in the financial world and deals with lawyers and accountants on a daily basis. One observation I have noted is that it does not matter how well intended a group of people or the executives are, the policies, as long as written/constructed by ill-intended people, can be the most detrimental weapon against the well-intended.

The only way I see one can defend oneself from STS teachings is to understand as much as one can and hold one's ground when tempted or threatened by STS. And as a social group, the best way is to spread the lessons and tools to see more clearly without distortion. This corresponds to Ruby's reply.

I agree with Ruby that temptation and threats are every where and so is suffering. The lesson I have learnt from STS about this is that the space for sanctuary can be within one. To be able to hold a sanctuary within, I hope I would be able to create and find sanctuary without with others for others.

Thank you both for your responses
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09-08-2019, 10:45 AM,
RE: Why the hate for wisdom?
(09-08-2019, 10:34 AM)Scah Wrote:  For example, I do find the Discipline attitude that STS stress on very similar to the Discipline (or strong Will) in Ra's messages.

The discipline is the same to both paths. The difference is the goal of that discipline: accept or control the others.

(09-08-2019, 10:34 AM)Scah Wrote:  Thank you both for your responses

I'm grateful as well.
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09-08-2019, 11:22 AM, (This post was last modified: 09-08-2019, 12:43 PM by Bring4th_Jade.)
RE: Why the hate for wisdom?
(09-07-2019, 12:21 PM)Scah Wrote:  
(05-18-2019, 09:12 PM)Glow Wrote:  
(05-18-2019, 08:15 PM)Cyan Wrote:  I feel like we should love the choice of those who choose wisdom over love and let them go where their choice takes them and appreciate them for illuminating the hard for us places of creation so we can choose love over wisdom.

It seems hate for the choice of wisdom before love is not the love of all we should try to strive for, the way I see it we're too focused on what is good for others and not enough on what is our own plan, but that seems to be the case from what I can see.

I don’t know where your anyone is seeing hate.

This is a service to others oriented forum by design so wisdom over love is not encouraged, that is not the same as hate.

I honestly disagree. This forum by the nature of LOO should encourage and include discussion with STO and STS. All is one and one is all. Reading your posts, sometimes i feel that you have been creating a division simply because of the thought that this forum leans towards to STO. I don't think that is beneficial at all. I learnt the most and fastest from the post "Greeting from the Dark". Even though I don't identify all that the then Zaxon had expressed, I enjoyed understanding things from all perspective. The work is always to look within and hold the ground not to control anything. Isn't control a tool of STS not STO? I personally polarized toward to STO and the understanding of all perspectives and pointviews would only help myself polarize more toward to STO.

Hello, Scah. This forum, by nature, was not designed to be a polarity free for all. This forum was designed to be a haven for people who resonated with being a Wanderer on a mission of service to others. This was Carla's intention upon the first creation of the forum. We haven't always succeeded in this mission. But, what we definitely try to put our foot down about is when people are promoting service to self philosophies. This just isn't the place. We can't be everything for everyone. 

There are more subtle lessons in the Law of One regarding purity of intention, group work, and consciously letting go when we recognize our service to self desires. There's also that pesky little bit about this being the time of harvest, and our group consciousness is moving into 4th density positive. That which is service to self can no longer be sustained on this planet. The availability of energies for that path is dwindling. The discussions you see, I believe, reflect that shift in awareness, that there are things on this planet that need to go so that we can move forward, and there is discernment required on an individual basis to achieve that intentional polarity towards the positive.

You are claiming that there is a lack of acceptance here. I think that is just from your lack of experience being integrated in these discussions. This forum is filled with acceptance. In fact, this forum is filled with discussion of STS! I think we all accept that there are STS energies on our planet. We just prefer to create small pockets that edge closer and closer to that fourth density positive ideal.

I would STRONGLY encourage you to read our forum rules and guidelines, which clearly state the purpose of this forum, it being contradictory to your assumptions. You can see them here: https://www.bring4th.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=13
There is no magic greater than honest distortion toward love.
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09-09-2019, 07:45 AM,
RE: Why the hate for wisdom?
 
It seems to me that both sides share the same valid point, they're just approaching it from different directions: viz., this project loses polarization as it fails to accept all (see 25.6 in post #345 above), and it likewise loses purity as it becomes a vehicle for promoting solipsism and separation.  I think all are best served through more thoughtful consideration of what service is being offered by each, that is, by asking, "Is what I'm offering carving out my own separate space, or am I working towards connectedness and general acceptance?"  Perhaps we can agree on that one point?

 
May all beings be happy.
May all beings find peace.
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09-09-2019, 11:21 AM, (This post was last modified: 09-09-2019, 12:01 PM by Diana.)
RE: Why the hate for wisdom?
(09-08-2019, 11:22 AM)Bring4th_Jade Wrote:  This forum, by nature, was not designed to be a polarity free for all. This forum was designed to be a haven for people who resonated with being a Wanderer on a mission of service to others. This was Carla's intention upon the first creation of the forum. We haven't always succeeded in this mission. But, what we definitely try to put our foot down about is when people are promoting service to self philosophies. This just isn't the place. We can't be everything for everyone. 

This is the bottom line, I think, for this forum, and it needs to be respected. But still, it's can be blurry proposition. Not to mention, what the moderators are aware of is generally more than what the members see. 

For my part, I am definitely for freedom of speech for all the obvious reasons including some based on the Ra material.

I personally don't necessarily want a haven here. I want to be challenged so I expand as a being, so I am exposed to thought outside of my current apprehension. But on the other hand, I want to be here because I know there are others who are also outside the normal box, and who are also curious and have common ground with me in resonating with Ra and the LoO. 

I definitely agree with the late George Carlin, in the meme posted above. I really don't think there is any getting around the wisdom in that quote.

The real issue here is that the human race is just not evolved enough to not need laws making them play nice. But laws and rules are generally carried out by the same unevolved people (I don't refer to this forum). It's a mess, and so thinking from the standpoint of the human drama is not going to solve the issues—humanity evolving forward in consciousness will. To that end, Ra says not to get caught up in the maelstrom. By that I don't mean not to care, or don't get involved even as an activist, but to detach from the drama, knowing that whomever is involved—victims, suffering individuals, STS authorities, etc.—have their own paths. (I speak only of humans here.) I see wanderers as a support system, and in that, detachment while still caring is the key, but not easy to do.

There is one way only that I see Political Correctness as helpful, and that is to highlight unconscious language. What I mean by that is we say many things without thought. Examples: bleeding like a stuck pig; best way to skin a cat; running around like a chicken with its head cut off (which I saw as a child and it haunted me and the memory still does). These are just thoughtless sayings or words that we haven't really considered.

And perhaps another way, still highlighting unconscious language and thought, is to expose us to a bigger picture of humanity. Being exposed to behaviors or people we have no dealings with because they were hiding away from society such as homosexuality not too long ago, is desensitizing the unconscious, tribal bias, based on limited exposure.

For my part, I simply live my life as I want to. I don't care about PC or laws for that matter. It's becoming increasingly more difficult to avoid human restrictions—it used to be the IRS was the main bully you couldn't avoid. But today…the digital world is up in everybody's business. And though that is a messy step toward transparency, it sucks until in a general sense there is a certain level of integrity in the human race and their motivations. 
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09-09-2019, 10:27 PM,
RE: Why the hate for wisdom?
(09-08-2019, 11:22 AM)Bring4th_Jade Wrote:  This forum, by nature, was not designed to be a polarity free for all. This forum was designed to be a haven for people who resonated with being a Wanderer on a mission of service to others. This was Carla's intention upon the first creation of the forum. We haven't always succeeded in this mission. But, what we definitely try to put our foot down about is when people are promoting service to self philosophies. This just isn't the place. We can't be everything for everyone. 
I understand and agree with this.
(09-09-2019, 11:21 AM)Diana Wrote:  I personally don't necessarily want a haven here. I want to be challenged so I expand as a being, so I am exposed to thought outside of my current apprehension. But on the other hand, I want to be here because I know there are others who are also outside the normal box, and who are also curious and have common ground with me in resonating with Ra and the LoO. 
Same here. This forum is amazing. I have so much love for everyone and especially the founders and moderators.  

Thank you, Diana, for your thoughtful response. I have learnt a lot.  
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09-10-2019, 09:59 AM,
RE: Why the hate for wisdom?
(09-09-2019, 11:21 AM)Diana Wrote:  For my part, I simply live my life as I want to. I don't care about PC or laws for that matter. It's becoming increasingly more difficult to avoid human restrictions—it used to be the IRS was the main bully you couldn't avoid. But today…the digital world is up in everybody's business. And though that is a messy step toward transparency, it sucks until in a general sense there is a certain level of integrity in the human race and their motivations. 

Humanity is learning rapidly right now, isn't it?
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09-10-2019, 10:57 AM,
RE: Why the hate for wisdom?
(09-10-2019, 09:59 AM)ScottK Wrote:  Humanity is learning rapidly right now, isn't it?

Maybe. Maybe it's that things have to get worse before they get better—that polarization is causing extremes in order to bring awareness. Because I see a world that has become addicted to media which tells people what to do and think; and businesses, especially online, that have no integrity. I won't go on, because my opinion is unpopular and admittedly jaded.

I sincerely hope things improve. One of the yardsticks (not the only one) I use as a measurement of consciousness is respect for all life. And there is such an enormous disconnect still.

In the 80s with the birth of the "new age" movement, the participants in that movement I think were under a mass delusion that they were "more advanced," more aware and spiritually superior (I witnessed this over and over in groups). In general, It seemed to me that they were just following "something else."

There has always been a fraction of humanity who think beyond the mass consciousness, and because we do have such effective and widespread media, we are more aware of them (such as those who gather here). But is it that we are more conscious in general, or just more informed (and consequently more manipulated) by it? There have always been people (probably most people) who want to help others and "be good," and because there are more opportunities to showcase this in the media, I am not sure how much of it is evolution or opportunity. Because I still see the disconnects.

I would love to hear good arguments (and I mean that as an exchange, not as a screaming match) for another view. Smile
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09-10-2019, 12:50 PM, (This post was last modified: 09-10-2019, 12:51 PM by ScottK.)
RE: Why the hate for wisdom?
I personally think what we are watching (in painful slow motion) is the creation of the concept that Dolores Cannon discussed which is the Split Earth.

One large group of humanity prefers centralized control, socialism, safe spaces, etc. The current structures of society generally support this model.

Then another large group of humanity prefers freedom and self reliance. The current structures do not generally support this model.

The current times really almost force a choice between the two mindsets, which would be the Split Earth. The second group and those who are moving into the second group seem to currently be in a state of shocked horror over what they are watching transpire in the world, and when the time comes to create their new world, I think it will be quite the peaceful revolution. Obviously, this will require years of work to create, but I think many have been catalyzed towards positive action from the current insanity.

In this case, I think negative short term truly is a positive long term. Historical times have probably always been a challenge to live through and this time doesn't appear to be an exception. Smile
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09-10-2019, 01:30 PM,
RE: Why the hate for wisdom?
@ ScottK: I haven't read that book by Dolores Canon. The concept is interesting. Thanks for your point of view. Smile
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09-10-2019, 07:31 PM, (This post was last modified: 09-10-2019, 07:35 PM by omcasey.)
RE: Why the hate for wisdom?
Wow.

What an eye-full. ( this thread! ).

Rather than split topics, or delete comments and/or whole threads - if the time ever comes for it on my own boards I will create a forum "purgatory" for threads such as this one. Where anger, pain and dis-harmony have come in to such a degree it is no longer in alignment with original energy and intent. An area of its own where it is collected and can exist in its own right can be created. And anyone who wishes to visit, at any time may. 

Between semantics, communication skill levels and where one is in their spiritual practice/path ( beginner, intermediate, advanced.. much certainly can be brought around in the way of understanding/mis-understanding. It is the challenge in all forums.

I see much being brought to light in the discussion re: STS and STO.

I see these collectively as 'torque', and therefore have a substantially neutral view - together they are a dance, an energy dynamic. ( not in my view a fight ).

There is no one without the other - and without the one and the other there is no movement. : this in itself is reason enough for genuine respect.

Each focus being necessary to the other, each being what it is, each requiring and culminating in skill. in growth. in graduation.

I feel there is much that is often overlooked, and even misunderstood in regard to the STS point of focus. Even from within the ranks of the STS faction itself. I do not feel it is a focus that itself lacks in integrity. Scah mentioned Zaxon from the Intro thread "Greetings from the Dark", a very fine example of STS integrity, acquired skill, advanced awareness and refinement through this focus. Not that everyone reaches it - ( and not that everyone STO does either. But there is the aim. Certainly there is always the aim, whether the lifeline be principally STO or STS. 

I am not sure the following of my own feeling is in alignment with the Ra Material and the LoO, but from my own vantage there is a spectrum to both the STO and STS focus. The latter ranging from the highly malevolent to highly benevolent ( though still sts ) and the former from the barely benevolent to the highly benevolent. This has likely been discussed to no end on these boards, but perhaps some discussion on this here would be an asset.


There is always sooo much more that could be said.


Casey
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09-10-2019, 09:23 PM,
RE: Why the hate for wisdom?
Hi omcasey. I'm gulping back coffee and running for the door for an appointment - but offer a brief reply to your assessment/ideas:


Quote:"Where anger, pain and dis-harmony have come in to such a degree it is no longer in alignment with original energy and intent."

there are many many threads on B4th that meet this description

Quote:"a substantially neutral view"

to some this is considered "the sinkhole of indifference"

Quote:"Even from within the ranks of the STS faction itself. I do not feel it is a focus that itself lacks in integrity".... "a very fine example of STS integrity"

integrity
/ɪnˈtɛɡrɪti/
noun: integrity
   1.
   the quality of being honest and having strong moral principles.
   "a gentleman of complete integrity"
   synonyms: honesty, uprightness, probity, rectitude, honour, honourableness, upstandingness, good character, principle(s), ethics, morals, righteousness, morality, nobility, high-mindedness, right-mindedness, noble-mindedness, virtue, decency, fairness, scrupulousness, sincerity, truthfulness, trustworthiness
   "I never doubted his integrity"

Quote:"highly benevolent ( though still sts )"

I'm of course not aware of how much LoO you've read but this is a misnomer  - a contradiction in terms
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09-11-2019, 12:02 AM,
RE: Why the hate for wisdom?
Hiya, Relax

Re: neutrality - the complete construct is this :

Quote:"I see much being brought to light in the discussion re: STS and STO ...I see these collectively as 'torque', and therefore have a substantially neutral view - together they are a dance, an energy dynamic. ( not in my view a fight )."

What I am saying in regard to 'torque' is that STS is what makes STO 'spin', ie: become active/alive - and vice versa. Each owes its energy and existence to the other. What at first seem two, indeed are more akin to two halves of a whole.. When the view is wide enough to house the whole, the understanding in itself is therefore neutral : ( 'one' generally not being incline to rail against 'itself' ).
 
I, myself, in this body, regardless of the understanding am most definitely still polarized ( the understanding is not yet the complete experience. A knowing that comes to me of this is that my very being ( polarized ) is creating it's pole, it's counter(part). The balance, right balance always being kept. I cannot stop this. And to rail against it is not intelligent. The knowing of this does not stop me from being who I am. As it, likewise, does not move me to stop you or any other.

If all are not sovereign - no one is.

STS and STO are in my own view and vision equivalents ...Equivalents which as we know, at a certain point fall together. not -again in my own view- as one over the other. but as a whole. the whole which originally subdivided into each.

Re:

Quote: omcasey Wrote:"highly benevolent ( though still sts )" 

Quote:Quote: Relax
I'm of course not aware of how much LoO you've read but this is a misnomer  - a contradiction in terms

It would be a fun discussion to have LIVE sometime.  Heart


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09-11-2019, 03:51 AM, (This post was last modified: 09-11-2019, 04:27 AM by Relax. Edit Reason: removing gaps in text in the quoted post )
RE: Why the hate for wisdom?
(09-11-2019, 12:02 AM)omcasey Wrote:  Hiya, Relax

Re: neutrality - the complete construct is this :
Quote:"I see much being brought to light in the discussion re: STS and STO ...I see these collectively as 'torque', and therefore have a substantially neutral view - together they are a dance, an energy dynamic. ( not in my view a fight )."

What I am saying in regard to 'torque' is that STS is what makes STO 'spin', ie: become active/alive - and vice versa. Each owes its energy and existence to the other. What at first seem two, indeed are more akin to two halves of a whole.. When the view is wide enough to house the whole, the understanding in itself is therefore neutral : ( 'one' generally not being incline to rail against 'itself' ).
 
I, myself, in this body, regardless of the understanding am most definitely still polarized ( the understanding is not yet the complete experience. A knowing that comes to me of this is that my very being ( polarized ) is creating it's pole, it's counter(part). The balance, right balance always being kept. I cannot stop this. And to rail against it is not intelligent. The knowing of this does not stop me from being who I am. As it, likewise, does not move me to stop you or any other.

If all are not sovereign - no one is.

STS and STO are in my own view and vision equivalents ...Equivalents which as we know, at a certain point fall together. not -again in my own view- as one over the other. but as a whole. the whole which originally subdivided into each.

Re:

Quote: omcasey Wrote:"highly benevolent ( though still sts )" 

Quote:Quote: Relax
I'm of course not aware of how much LoO you've read but this is a misnomer  - a contradiction in terms

It would be a fun discussion to have LIVE sometime.  Heart

Casey

I did get what you meant - ie:
Quote:"the complete construct"

writing
Quote:"I see these collectively as 'torque', and therefore have a substantially neutral view"

was what I went on.

Your further explanation now clarifies; because as it read you seemed to be saying you were neutral - and as this thread has been so fractious (to put it mildly) caution applies for me with this thread (and B4th) atm.

I do understand the principles of what you're saying - my vigilance is - again - thread related (though I'm often on high alert on this forum) so I also wanted to address that you say you think STS can be
Quote:"highly benevolent" and of "integrity"

I have to 'call this out' as there's no benevolence in STS - unless you count the 5% left over from the 95% service to self polarity required by RA's definition - and 5% isn't "highly benevolent. And along the way to polarising STS, benevolence would be destabilising to your path and contraindicated.

This just isn't my perception of STS with or without the LoO definition.

I also don't find any "integrity" in STS as it is the quality of "being honest and having strong moral principles; honour, upstandingness, good character, principle(s), ethics, morals, righteousness, high-mindedness, right-mindedness, noble-mindedness, virtue, decency, fairness, scrupulousness, sincerity, truthfulness, or trustworthiness."

Abandoning, subverting, overthrowing these qualities is vital behaviour on the path to STS polarising.

So, unless you mean integrity as in building (physical) related ie: "structural integrity"  Wink "integrity" used for STS is a contradiction in terms.

If you're meaning that in fulfilling it's role to provide the torque for STO... imo that's more functional than 'helpful' (benevolent, honourable et al).

I agree when you say
Quote:"they are equivalents"
yes - and they are 'polar opposites' - this is why I replied so quickly to your post because parts of it feel quite strange analysis to me/to 'the material'

I agree with
Quote:"The balance, right balance always being kept. I cannot stop this. And to rail against it is not intelligent. The knowing of this does not stop me from being who I am. As it, likewise, does not move me to stop you or any other.

If all are not sovereign - no one is."

It is also my perception - but there is still the fact that a time comes where the polarities separate past 3D and continue their growth on their chosen paths separately from 4D and onwards.

So, the RA material (and my own 'sense' of cosmic order/progression) is not aligned with:

Quote:"Equivalents which as we know, at a certain point fall together. not -again in my own view- as one over the other. but as a whole. the whole which originally subdivided into each."

by 6D STS eventually realises that to go any further it needs to 'switch polarity'.

I could see that The Ultimate 'All That Is' - the 'Origin'...that wants to 'know itself' - exists in a state of neutrality/all polarity/all potentiality - but neutrality in this current octave of densities is not the 'resolution' that occurs.
STO is.

Yes, light is perceived by the contrast of absence of light - but ultimately light is THE 'state' of this octave. I think absence of Light/Love is a lesser "distortion" than negativity/evil/horror/pain/greed/STS.

I'd also add that Service To Other is implicitly inclusive of self care, self respect, self love - ie: from a 'full cup' we are much better placed to go forth and serve others.

Also - service to others can often take the form of seemingly harsh or detached behaviour/s. Or of not "serving" ie: when it would be infringement of individual sovereignty.
For a wanderer simply to have had the courage/love to come to/revisit this 3D Earth planet and just 'exist' with a good heart/intention - already is 'serving' Smile <3


There are many members/mods who can explain and describe this much more fully than I have time to do.

the potential for discussion is an interesting idea - but I'm not sure how far we could progress - because I think STO has a wide range of % of benevolent qualities - but to me STS's path is very linear and difficult; and needs to be pursued very 'vigorously'.
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09-11-2019, 03:52 AM, (This post was last modified: 09-11-2019, 04:00 AM by Relax.)
RE: Why the hate for wisdom?
accidental double post
--
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09-11-2019, 11:05 PM, (This post was last modified: 09-11-2019, 11:05 PM by omcasey.)
RE: Why the hate for wisdom?
Relax,

Thank you for taking the time to share your perspective and understanding. I welcome all who would do the same.


Casey
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