Can the heart chakra infringe???
05-16-2018, 12:15 AM,
#1
Can the heart chakra infringe???
Can the heart chakra (green ray) ever infringe on the Self?
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05-16-2018, 12:24 AM,
#2
RE: Can the heart chakra infringe???
Can you give an example of what you’re concerned about?
May all beings be happy.
May all beings find peace.
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Heart4
05-16-2018, 02:55 AM, (This post was last modified: 05-16-2018, 12:27 PM by xise.)
#3
RE: Can the heart chakra infringe???
There are definitely green ray distortions; one common one that comes to mind is a green-yellow/orange distortions where you desire to control the ones you love for their own best interest.

This occurs when you love another adult and if they seem to be making bad / harmful choices, then you desire to control them/the situation and control their choices for their own good. You overrride their free will (because obviously they did not wish to listen to your advice) and took matters into your own hands to protect them, because after all, you love them and what's best for them.

This is a contradiction in terms, as pure green ray love is unconditional and freely accepts another adult's decision to make what seems to be a bad choice and takes no action against it (assuming it is not purposely hurting others, at which point you still accept it but you take action out of love for the others that would be hurt). However, the desire to control a loved one so that they do not do what you consider to be self-sabotage is a common green-yellow/orange distortion, seemingly everpresent in our society.

-----

Please note that things are slightly different when it comes to children (though I don't necessarily agree that a person is a child until they are 18).

Service to Others means Service to All. That includes yourself.
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05-16-2018, 06:06 AM,
#4
RE: Can the heart chakra infringe???
The heart is about universal compassion.

It's the desire to help.

Wisdom (experience) often informs that desire.

I think - deep down - if we absolutely knew that we could be assisted with our issues, in the best way possible, very few people would say no to that.
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Heart4
05-16-2018, 06:26 AM,
#5
RE: Can the heart chakra infringe???
The Heart is like another sub-conscious energy/intelligence within Self, and it is there to serve with Self. Though its service requires one to be silent, and listen to other Hearts.

"Everything comes from the sun"
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05-16-2018, 10:38 AM,
#6
RE: Can the heart chakra infringe???
(05-16-2018, 06:06 AM)Bring4th_Plenum Wrote:  I think - deep down - if we absolutely knew that we could be assisted with our issues, in the best way possible, very few people would say no to that.

Not necessarily. Some individuals want to find their own way. 

I have had this discussion with a best friend before many times. He compares "living masters" to a guide who has forged a path through a dense and difficult forest and knows how to get to the other side in the shortest way. He contends that it's easier and smarter to get through the forest with that guidance if it's available because the goal is the same—to reach the other side. I disagree. I think there is an inherent difference between the two ways to get there: to follow a guide, or to find your own way. The difference is the accumulated experience; the accomplishment; the wisdom; which you gain by doing it yourself. In this you can glory in the trial, tribulations, as well as the joys.

Being an example (that not being the goal but rather the effect); supporting others in whatever paths they take; while balancing honesty and authenticity in myself (without agreeing to what others may be doing but supporting their free will), is what I aim for.

It takes courage and a huge amount of self-honesty to forge ahead alone. But ultimately, and paradoxically, this is what we do anyway. Being alone in one's path and decisions does not have to be lonely, when you take into consideration that we ideally support one another's free will and have unconditional love in our hearts.
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05-16-2018, 02:21 PM,
#7
RE: Can the heart chakra infringe???
Sorry, i couldnt resist contributing Smile

@Original Poster

what you are describing does not sound like its really related to the heart chakra/green ray, I'd say this is a misunderstanding!
How come you suspect its an issue of the heart?

I am familiar with what you describe and found, at least for me, that its ultimately a control issue and, if you insist attributing it to a certain chakra, much more related to red,yellow and orange.

I would really strongly and very sincerely suggest setting the "rays", chakras or how you name it aside.
Forgive me when I state this plain open and frankly, but the understanding of the different rays or chakras that is being displayed in many threads here is very superficial to the extent that its more of an obstacle than a help in my opinion.

Ra gives only a very short, brief and not in-depth explanation of the chakras.
There are complete books about EACH chakra, so it should be clear that a two sentence summary ommits a great deal.
This will lead to great misunderstanding and can potentially slow down your progress significantly!
Especially the understanding of root/heart/throat or red/green/blue is often so distorted that it would be better to NOT use this concept!
Apart from that the chakras are not seperated but interconnected in multiple ways.

If you're interested, i will gladly expand on that!

@diana
i think a matter delicate and complex as this should be a little more differentiated!
There are different people with different "designs" and most of all different goals!
Some need more guidance some less.
Also, what is perfect for a certain stage of development can be "wrong" for other stages.
detachment would be a great example Wink
Following a (real) guru is an act of surrender, which is a great help for surrendering to the divine!

An outer teacher can save you lots of time.
But i absolutely agree that it is favorable, at least for me, to work with the inner teacher.
My outer teacher on the other hand has probably saved me decades of work and played a crucial part in developing the connection to my inner teacher.

In both cases i would say it is close to impossible to develop past a certain point without a teacher, be it an inner or an outer teacher.
But i guess we agree here.

Then one more but in my experience most crucial point:

please note that i am speaking about people who want to go the "whole distance"!
You cannot do it alone!!
Since spiritual development is closed tied to healing, it has to be said, that when you reach real depths in your inner work, it is impossible to do it alone!
There are crucial experiences that cannot be solved alone!
(they could be solved alone in theory, but working alone you wont even get close to a position where you could do it alone).

This does not mean that you have to do everything in groups.
But someone HAS to be available for those parts where its necessary!

I hope this is understandable at least a bit Smile
I can also further expand on that, if anybody wishes so.
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05-16-2018, 04:27 PM, (This post was last modified: 05-16-2018, 04:36 PM by Cainite.)
#8
RE: Can the heart chakra infringe???
(05-16-2018, 02:55 AM)xise Wrote:  There are definitely green ray distortions; one common one that comes to mind is a green-yellow/orange distortions where you desire to control the ones you love for their own best interest.

This occurs when you love another adult and if they seem to be making bad / harmful choices, then you desire to control them/the situation and control their choices for their own good. You overrride their free will (because obviously they did not wish to listen to your advice) and took matters into your own hands to protect them, because after all, you love them and what's best for them.

This is a contradiction in terms, as pure green ray love is unconditional and freely accepts another adult's decision to make what seems to be a bad choice and takes no action against it (assuming it is not purposely hurting others, at which point you still accept it but you take action out of love for the others that would be hurt). However, the desire to control a loved one so that they do not do what you consider to be self-sabotage is a common green-yellow/orange distortion, seemingly everpresent in our society.

-----

Please note that things are slightly different when it comes to children (though I don't necessarily agree that a person is a child until they are 18).

I remember being mad at my mother and my friend. telling them things like : ''I'm suffering and just want to escape this intense pain but can't because of you''.

But now that I'm not suicidal anymore. I'm thankful for their lack of acceptance at the time. I actually want to live longer now.. the desire is new to me.


(05-16-2018, 02:21 PM)Agua Wrote:  i think a matter delicate and complex as this should be a little more differentiated!
There are different people with different "designs" and most of all different goals!
Some need more guidance some less.
Also, what is perfect for a certain stage of development can be "wrong" for other stages.
detachment would be a great example Wink
Following a (real) guru is an act of surrender, which is a great help for surrendering to the divine!

An outer teacher can save you lots of time.
But i absolutely agree that it is favorable, at least for me, to work with the inner teacher.
My outer teacher on the other hand has probably saved me decades of work and played a crucial part in developing the connection to my inner teacher.

In both cases i would say it is close to impossible to develop past a certain point without a teacher, be it an inner or an outer teacher.
But i guess we agree here.

Then one more but in my experience most crucial point:

please note that i am speaking about people who want to go the "whole distance"!
You cannot do it alone!!
Since spiritual development is closed tied to healing, it has to be said, that when you reach real depths in your inner work, it is impossible to do it alone!
There are crucial experiences that cannot be solved alone!
(they could be solved alone in theory, but working alone you wont even get close to a position where you could do it alone).

This does not mean that you have to do everything in groups.
But someone HAS to be available for those parts where its necessary!

I hope this is understandable at least a bit Smile
I can also further expand on that, if anybody wishes so.

I wish I had a teacher when I was younger. things would turn out differently..

Now I don't require guidance as much as I did once.. my heart guides me.
______________
'The wise man lacked nothing but needed a great number of things, whereas the fool needs nothing but lacks everything.'
Seneca
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05-16-2018, 05:22 PM,
#9
RE: Can the heart chakra infringe???
(05-16-2018, 02:21 PM)Agua Wrote:  Sorry, i couldnt resist contributing Smile

@Original Poster

what you are describing does not sound like its really related to the heart chakra/green ray, I'd say this is a misunderstanding!
How come you suspect its an issue of the heart?

I am familiar with what you describe and found, at least for me, that its ultimately a control issue and, if you insist attributing it to a certain chakra, much more related to red,yellow and orange.

I would really strongly and very sincerely suggest setting the "rays", chakras or how you name it aside.
Forgive me when I state this plain open and frankly, but the understanding of the different rays or chakras that is being displayed in many threads here is very superficial to the extent that its more of an obstacle than a help in my opinion.

Ra gives only a very short, brief and not in-depth explanation of the chakras.
There are complete books about EACH chakra, so it should be clear that a two sentence summary ommits a great deal.
This will lead to great misunderstanding and can potentially slow down your progress significantly!
Especially the understanding of root/heart/throat or red/green/blue is often so distorted that it would be better to NOT use this concept!
Apart from that the chakras are not seperated but interconnected in multiple ways.

If you're interested, i will gladly expand on that!

@diana
i think a matter delicate and complex as this should be a little more differentiated!
There are different people with different "designs" and most of all different goals!
Some need more guidance some less.
Also, what is perfect for a certain stage of development can be "wrong" for other stages.
detachment would be a great example Wink
Following a (real) guru is an act of surrender, which is a great help for surrendering to the divine!

An outer teacher can save you lots of time.
But i absolutely agree that it is favorable, at least for me, to work with the inner teacher.
My outer teacher on the other hand has probably saved me decades of work and played a crucial part in developing the connection to my inner teacher.

In both cases i would say it is close to impossible to develop past a certain point without a teacher, be it an inner or an outer teacher.
But i guess we agree here.

Then one more but in my experience most crucial point:

please note that i am speaking about people who want to go the "whole distance"!
You cannot do it alone!!
Since spiritual development is closed tied to healing, it has to be said, that when you reach real depths in your inner work, it is impossible to do it alone!
There are crucial experiences that cannot be solved alone!
(they could be solved alone in theory, but working alone you wont even get close to a position where you could do it alone).

This does not mean that you have to do everything in groups.
But someone HAS to be available for those parts where its necessary!

I hope this is understandable at least a bit Smile
I can also further expand on that, if anybody wishes so.

Expand on that! I would love it! Lovely answer!
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05-16-2018, 07:32 PM,
#10
RE: Can the heart chakra infringe???
(05-16-2018, 10:38 AM)Diana Wrote:  I have had this discussion with a best friend before many times. He compares "living masters" to a guide who has forged a path through a dense and difficult forest and knows how to get to the other side in the shortest way. He contends that it's easier and smarter to get through the forest with that guidance if it's available because the goal is the same—to reach the other side. I disagree. I think there is an inherent difference between the two ways to get there: to follow a guide, or to find your own way. The difference is the accumulated experience; the accomplishment; the wisdom; which you gain by doing it yourself. In this you can glory in the trial, tribulations, as well as the joys.

I really share your insight. In terms of 3D experience, an "overly" good/bad guide could literally ruin your incarnational lessons and make you need to restart over the same life thematics, awakening aids do the same, and its heavily tied to the importance of respecting free will.

3D is centered upon self-realization in terms of lessons of the Creator in the experience of the Creator. I find within myself much love for guidance, but I think at some point any guide has to face that it abstracts others' path to find its own and while this serves many purposes it also misguides in a way. Like you said somewhat, it's more about the journey than any destination and so just like that you said elsewhere that the best of healers is one with no need to heal, the best of guides is one without need to guide. It's more balanced to offer to the needs that come to oneself as otherwise it's more about personal lessons in which what you have to offer is somewhat rigid and without flexibility nor transparency.



To answer the thread :

Quote:Can the heart chakra (green ray) ever infringe on the Self?

Not really, it is very easy and natural to reject heart ray transfers or openings and is unlike the nature of the heart to force anything.

You are in a dance with your life, acknowledge your end.
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05-17-2018, 12:57 AM, (This post was last modified: 05-17-2018, 12:58 AM by xise.)
#11
RE: Can the heart chakra infringe???
(05-16-2018, 04:27 PM)Cainite Wrote:  
(05-16-2018, 02:55 AM)xise Wrote:  There are definitely green ray distortions; one common one that comes to mind is a green-yellow/orange distortions where you desire to control the ones you love for their own best interest.

This occurs when you love another adult and if they seem to be making bad / harmful choices, then you desire to control them/the situation and control their choices for their own good. You overrride their free will (because obviously they did not wish to listen to your advice) and took matters into your own hands to protect them, because after all, you love them and what's best for them.

This is a contradiction in terms, as pure green ray love is unconditional and freely accepts another adult's decision to make what seems to be a bad choice and takes no action against it (assuming it is not purposely hurting others, at which point you still accept it but you take action out of love for the others that would be hurt). However, the desire to control a loved one so that they do not do what you consider to be self-sabotage is a common green-yellow/orange distortion, seemingly everpresent in our society.

-----

Please note that things are slightly different when it comes to children (though I don't necessarily agree that a person is a child until they are 18).

I remember being mad at my mother and my friend. telling them things like : ''I'm suffering and just want to escape this intense pain but can't because of you''.

But now that I'm not suicidal anymore. I'm thankful for their lack of acceptance at the time.  I actually want to live longer now.. the desire is new to me.


I think you only fully infringe upon free will when both the conscious and subconscious mind wants the same thing - everything else are mere shades or gradiations of infringement, and I think sometimes there can be almost no infringement at all if the subconscious is fully against a conscious idea. While that's certainly possible with suicide, I'm betting that a part of you in the deep mind did not want to die, irrespective of the pressures or limitations your friends and family placed upon you.

In short, this is why it is less infringing to limit others who attempt to carry out impulsive, poorly thought out actions as opposed to someone who deeply wants something, or has deeply pondered a course of action, from the root of their being.

Ie, your buzzed but not drunk friend randomly decides hes gonna jump off a bridge because hes upset over a breakup while you guys are walking home across a bridge from the bars, I don't think there is an infringement to stop him. On the other extreme, to create an extremely unrealistic but ideal example of a rational suicide, if a person of sound mind and is not depressed, after much meditation over the course of several years has contemplated suicide over several years for hundreds of hours, and decides to undertake this action, stopping that I think entails more infringement.

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05-17-2018, 01:02 AM,
#12
RE: Can the heart chakra infringe???
xise,

I feel the same thing, the latter would entail way more infringement.
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05-17-2018, 02:43 AM,
#13
RE: Can the heart chakra infringe???
(05-16-2018, 05:22 PM)Heart4 Wrote:  Expand on that! I would love it! Lovely answer!


As for the chakras/rays and why i think "shortened" information is misleading, a few examples on that:

Since most here seem to be very sincere in their seeking and ultimately strive for "self-realization", "finding", experiencing and ultimately freeing our real self is of utmost importance.
Our real self has no layers, no "aspects" and no rays or chakras.
It is whole and undivided!
You cannot experience something "whole" in its totality when you seperate it, so a holistic approach makes much more sense.

For example red ray/ root chakra is GREATLY misunderstood!
Many label it "fear of survival". This is not wrong, but extremely simplified to a point it doesnt make much sense anymore.
This would indicate, for pravtical work, that the root chakra does not have to be worked on, when there is no fear of survival present.
It would be closer to the truth to describe the root chakra as the one that connects you to the physical plane.
If this is blocked, which it usually is, it is because of fear of survival.
This does imply two important realization, especially after you have done some deeper inner work:
First of all, we obviously live on a physical plane. If we want to be effective here, be it physically OR concerning work in consciousness, we can only be effective to the degree that we are connected to this plane.
A metaphor would be, if you want to do work on the astral plane, astral travels for example, you first have to really inhabit your astral body. if you dont do this, you cannot do work there.

Second would be, as you go deeper in your inner work and healing, you will umdoubtedly find out, that EVERY blockage ultimately has an experience of very strong fear at its root.
So speaking in terms of rays/chakras, every blockage also contains a good portion of red ray blockage and there is not a single blockage that you could really solve without incorporating the root chakra!

Additionally, there are several "ways" of reaching self realization if you want to name it so.
One would be to move away from this physical plane to reach the inn core, which in the end would result in dying as soon as you reach "enlightenment" (taken to the extreme), or in enlightenment of only the "mental plane".
This would be enlightenment with still neurosis and emotional problems persisting, not even speaking of the body.
Or you can bring your higher consciousness as much as possible into the physical world. Which would incorporate the emotional and the physical plane.

The root chakra also "makes" the connection to the material world and you will find, as you go deeper and deeper, that the energy gets so strong, that there is a huge tendency to move away from the physical plane.
This does mean, given your deeper desire would be staying in this incarnation, that your inner system will never allow you to experience really strong energies and experiences UNLESS you are firmly and stable connected to the physical body.

Although this is still a very superficial overview, it indicates that, if you would place importance on a single chakra, it should be the root chakra, since this is the absolutely most crucial one!

Then blue ray/throat chakra is greatly misunderstood:

it often gets labeled as the one that is about "open communication" or heart communication.
This is not wrong but again shortened to a degree that it is misleading.
You could be tempted to communicate in a "loving way" or in a way that coreesponds with your understanding of love (just an example). This would however not unblock or develop the throat chakra/blue ray but make the blockage even WORSE.
I'll try to shortly explain why:
Blue ray has not only to do with communication but first of all with SELF IMAGE!
It is first of all about how you view yourself. For a very long time, this view is extremely distorted. You do not experience your real self but an "identity", an"artificial identity" which is NOT yourreal self but an identity designed to protect your inner core from pain so to say.
Your false identity however has been built because of bad experiences that are mostly stored in the lower three chakras.
To "reveal" your true self, you first have to remove the blockages and distortions stored in the lowertriad and then afterwards deeply open your heart.
THEN and only then is it recommendable to work on blue ray.
If you follow that sequence, blue ray work will help in further loosening the grip of false identities and in bringing your "real self" into the world.
If you do this prematirely, all the energy of blue ray work will go into your false and protective identities, further distorting them and charging them with even more distortions.

So IF you really want to work on specific chakras, it is recommended to gain a broader understanding what each is about AND at the same time tealizing they are ALL CONECTED and cannot be seperated ultimately!
And i would really recommend starting from the bottom up!

It has been my experience that a whole lot of what many desire and label as adept work and/or magic in fact comes naturally as
a byproduct of "lower chakra work".
I think this is especially true for wanderers, since in our body/mind/spirit complex, the "spirit" part is different from non-wanderers, indicating that the main work is not developing higher consciousness, but to BRING it to the material plane!

I will answer the other part in the next post
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05-17-2018, 02:46 AM,
#14
RE: Can the heart chakra infringe???

I would suggest that for different stages of development different approaches are needed.
The approach that serves a certain stage can be an obstacle for anotjer stage.
An example would be detachment:

while this is in general very desirable to develop, i think it is crucial to investigate it more deeply.

Lets say somebody has made devastating experiences with his parents. Lets say this person has been let down in a really bad experience.
Violence, sexual or emotional abuse, neglect to name a few.
The person has made these experiences because he was in deep contact (in very young age we allow a depth of contact that is unimagineable to us as adults).
So deep contact as well as being dependant on someone (in that case parents, bit we transfer this to all humans) has been experienced as unreliable and very dangerous.
This person would then,potentially, decide in an extremely young age, maybe even as a baby or before birth, that it wants to be independant. This would be an attempt to prevent further violation.

Now this person would potentially carry on to use this "approach" which would ultimately be a defense mechanism in his later life. When on a spiritual path, this can then be labeled "detachment" and looks like something desirable.
However, that person would not be able to develop past a certain point, since it would actually be a seperation from other humans and ultimately from him/herself.
This is because "detachment" in that case would have avoidamce as a deeper motivation.

Ideally this person should first learn attachment in that case!
He/she should first learn to dare to commit to a human being, to allow deep contact. This ould bring up deep fear, old fear, and at some point pain, old pain.
But there would be the potential for two crucial experiences:
I can allow commitment and deep contact and nothing bad happens.
When something bad happens, i will get through this and am now in a position to change the outer situation (as opposed to the childhood experience).

An opposite example would be someone who never developed trust in his own abilities and fears making wrong decisions.
For that person it would be an important step to not rely that much on others in order to experience that her own decisions and her own guidance will lead to good results.
Self trust cannot be developed if you always hide behind someone else!

These are just two examples.
I would say it is always important to find out what the deeper motivation is!
When the deeper motivation is avoidance, then its an obstacle, no matter how "spiritual" it may look on the outside.
When the deeper motivation is growth and healing, then it probably serves you well, no matter how un-spiritual it may appear superficially.

A few words on healing and "inner child work":
Viewing healing work as "inner child" work is a useful approach for many, since it indicates that you are actually dealing with a little child and it should be treated with love, compassion and softness.
Now to the "you cannot do it alone" part.
It is, in theory, possible to do this work alone, however it is extremely unlikely that you get past the stage of concepts if you do it alone. The reason is very simple:
You have secluded that child in you from the world and yourself for safety reasons. We ate talking about an extremely vulnerable being. You have lived your life afterwards in a way, where such a vulnerable being has no place.
Plus this "inner child" is packed with fear of great pain.
I dont know of a single person that all alone was able to REALLY connect with the inner child fully.
However if you work with a good therapist for example or if you have a really supportive relationship, there is a very good chance that you are being offered an atmosphere where the inner child can feel safe and for the first time dares to "come out".
When that has happened, and this is an initiation, further work can also be done alone.
Unless that initiation has happened, it is unlikely to happen at all.

And if you go even deeper, which you will have to if you want to go full length, you will sooner or later encounter your trauma.
lmost all trauma happened because you have been alone.
So there is a protective mechanism that would prevent it from arising when you are alone, simply because you fear it to happen again (not you as an adult, but the part that made that experience), and unless this is healed, you have ABSOLUTELY no power over that decision.
Second aspect is, in each trauma there occurs dissociation, the seperation from the experience and yourself, in order to survive.
That means, that as soon as you approach these deep portions of yours, you will encounter an extremely strong impuls to dissociate and "leave" the present moment.
In order to heal and dissolve this you need to be absolutely present. The contradiction is obvious.
So what you need is somewhat that stays present with you IN that experience, this brings presence into that situation (this is again an initiation), serving you as an anchor an helping you to develop presence IN that experience.
AFTER that has happened, and only after that, you can do this work alone. BEFORE you have had this initiation it is so unlikely you even allow yourself to get close to that experience or issue, that it would be fair to say in general it is impossible.

While this may be an "extreme" example, this is actually what happens deep down in us, all the time, we are just not aware of it.
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05-17-2018, 03:53 AM,
#15
RE: Can the heart chakra infringe???
Those are some good thoughts and experiences there Agua. Thanks for taking the time to share them.  Angel
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