Wisdom Run Amok
04-30-2018, 11:32 AM,
RE: Wisdom Run Amok
(04-28-2018, 03:32 PM)peregrine Wrote:  This passage was posted on another thread and it got me thinking about the title of this thread.


Ra Dialogue Wrote:42.7 ▶ Questioner: I would like to try to make an analogy for this in third density. Many entities here feel great compassion toward relieving the physical problems of third-density other-selves by administering to them in many ways, bringing them food if there is hunger as there is in the African nations now, bringing them medicine if they believe they require administering to them medically, and being selfless in all of these services to a very great extent.

This is creating a polarization or a vibration that is in harmony with green ray or fourth density. However, it is not balanced with the understanding of fifth density that these entities are experiencing catalyst and a more balanced administration to their needs would be to provide them with the learning necessary to reach the state of awareness of fourth density than it would be to administer to their physical needs at this time. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is incorrect. To a mind/body/spirit complex which is starving, the appropriate response is the feeding of the body. You may extrapolate from this.

On the other hand, however, you are correct in your assumption that the green ray response is not as refined as that which has been imbued with wisdom. This wisdom enables the entity to appreciate its contributions to the planetary consciousness by the quality of its being, without regard to activity or behavior which expects results upon visible planes.

I wonder it would be fair (or "wise") to infer from this that, if wisdom's role is to refine love, then wisdom absent prevenient love is of lesser value?  I don't expect there's a definitive proof or disproof this, but it strikes me as a curious postulate.

 

That is the Ra quote I was referring to in an earlier post. 

I think there IS wisdom in feeding the starving person one comes across—as opposed to just "being" (which is also a valid choice and one that must be understood but not necessarily adhered to)—as long as there are no expectations (just as Ra did not expect to save a bunch of humans from their situation). If I come across the starving person and feed him/her, with no expectations or attachment, that is service with unconditional love and the wisdom to not expect anything out of it at all. It just IS (the person in need and my ability to share, help, offer food). 

So detachment, and having no expectations, is the wisdom, in my opinion. It is a choice whether or not to assist others when one has reached this place of wisdom. Even just "being" can be attached to the ego, as is true of many new agers who aggrandize themselves by "holding space" or "being a light in the world"—it's not that I'm saying they aren't these things, but some are validated by announcing it, rather than just doing the service with no ego attachment. And that is not to say they can't talk about it, but if one really knows one's self, and is confident in his/her mission and place in the world, there is no need for validation.   
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04-30-2018, 11:55 AM,
RE: Wisdom Run Amok



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peregrine
04-30-2018, 12:08 PM,
RE: Wisdom Run Amok
Diana, I agree with your post above up until the last line.  A little validation now and then can help balance the stress of having to struggle through the illusion to find what's more real.  I wouldn't forswear it entirely, myself.

 
May all beings be happy.
May all beings find peace.
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Billy
04-30-2018, 02:58 PM,
RE: Wisdom Run Amok
(04-30-2018, 11:55 AM)IndigoGeminiWolf Wrote:  


That made me smile, thank you.  Shy
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IndigoGeminiWolf
05-02-2018, 03:35 AM, (This post was last modified: 05-02-2018, 03:36 AM by Billy.)
RE: Wisdom Run Amok
The whole not having expectations thing I find quite interesting.  I don't think it is actually possible to not have expectations, and maybe it is not even desirable, just like it isn't possible to not have any desires or wants.  Come to think of it, how would you guys differentiate between an expectation and a desire?  Or even a hope?  In some cases they all seem somewhat interchangeable.  

Take for example the expectation, "I expect bring4th to be a loving and encouraging place".  Compare that to "I desire bring4th to be a loving and encouraging place".  And finally, "I hope for bring4th to be a loving and encouraging place".  They all have the same thing in common in that a certain outcome or reality is wanted.  The difference seems to be in 'energy' or 'tone'.  When you expect something, the 'energy' behind that seems a bit stiff (at least in the context I have provided), when compared to hoping for something, which seems lighter, more free.  

I think an expectation can also be seen as a need.  So an helpful thing to do, would be to discover what the need is and go about accepting and understanding it, rather than dismissing it.

Just some thoughts Smile   
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05-02-2018, 03:45 AM,
RE: Wisdom Run Amok
I think hope has an air of uncertainty to it.

I think the best thing would be "I choose to see bring4th as a loving and encouraging place."

Choice puts the power back on you.

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05-02-2018, 11:23 AM, (This post was last modified: 05-02-2018, 11:24 AM by Aion.)
RE: Wisdom Run Amok
Don't worry about what other people are doing, focus on your own creative activities which contribute to the overall atmosphere of the forum.

I think "focus on what you can do" is a good way to keep an objective view of your own expectations.
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05-02-2018, 11:56 AM, (This post was last modified: 05-02-2018, 11:58 AM by Diana.)
RE: Wisdom Run Amok
(05-02-2018, 03:35 AM)Billy Wrote:  The whole not having expectations thing I find quite interesting.  I don't think it is actually possible to not have expectations, and maybe it is not even desirable, just like it isn't possible to not have any desires or wants.  Come to think of it, how would you guys differentiate between an expectation and a desire?  Or even a hope?  In some cases they all seem somewhat interchangeable.  

Take for example the expectation, "I expect bring4th to be a loving and encouraging place".  Compare that to "I desire bring4th to be a loving and encouraging place".  And finally, "I hope for bring4th to be a loving and encouraging place".  They all have the same thing in common in that a certain outcome or reality is wanted.  The difference seems to be in 'energy' or 'tone'.  When you expect something, the 'energy' behind that seems a bit stiff (at least in the context I have provided), when compared to hoping for something, which seems lighter, more free.  

I think an expectation can also be seen as a need.  So an helpful thing to do, would be to discover what the need is and go about accepting and understanding it, rather than dismissing it.

Just some thoughts Smile   

An expectation is a closed loop. It's one outcome, and only that one outcome. 

Desire and hope are emotions that create magnetic resonance. They can light the way on a path.

For example, you may desire a soulmate. In doing so without expectations, you may then automatically improve yourself, or get out of the house and be available more, or simply open the energetic, metaphorical door for a soulmate to come into your life. It can be more of an "opening" energy. This may break down if the hope/desire is juxtaposed with a belief it isn't possible. But if you expect a soulmate, this is a rigid, unmoving energy. Expecting is dictatorial, saying you demand, expect, deserve, won't take any other answer, mindset.

If you expect B4 to be a kind and encouraging place—that's it, there is nothing else accepted. It either is what you expect or it isn't. You are trying to control something outside of self, fit it into a box of your making, pigeonhole it into being something very specific. And your idea of what kind and encouraging is may differ greatly than someone else's idea. Who is correct?

If you hope or desire B4 to be kind and encouraging, you may be disappointed if it isn't what you expect kindness and encouraging to be. But it won't stop there as long as the hope/desire exists—you may try to contribute to B4 to bring it into alignment with these things by being kind and encouraging yourself, without slamming the door on B4 because it didn't meet your expectations. In doing so, you change yourself, and can have an effect on B4 in the process.

Goals are different than expectations. And it can be very difficult to understand the difference. Think of an entrepreneur. If an entrepreneur has a goal, she strives to achieve that goal. If something gets in the way of that goal, she climbs over that brick wall. If something unexpected comes up along the way, she will change course and cut losses without hesitation. If the goal becomes inviable, she switches to the next best thing. It's all very malleable based upon a desire/goal. But if the entrepreneur only has one expectation and it has to be that specific one, this doesn't leave room for any variables or dynamic shifts to be included in the path to the goal.

This relates directly to the subatomic realm. You can only predict probabilities in quantum mechanics. The Uncertainty Principal (a fundamental limit to the precision with which certain pairs of physical properties of a particle can be known), and The Observer Effect (which notes that measurements of certain systems cannot be made without affecting the systems, that is, without changing something in a system) both reflect the dynamic nature of energy. And the wave/particle duality also shows that in the particle function there is one outcome (relating to an expectation) and one outcome only; whereas in the wave function all possible outcomes remain present.
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05-02-2018, 01:22 PM,
RE: Wisdom Run Amok
Oh wow, this debate is still going on, huh? Are we using wisdom to debate whether or not wisdom has gone amok? Wink
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peregrine
05-02-2018, 01:35 PM,
RE: Wisdom Run Amok
I vacillate between dropping my expectations and embracing my disappointment. The former is the healthier option, I think -- to release the need for specific outcomes so that I avoid confusion and suffering. But the latter is actually more spiritually useful -- to not attempt to avoid pain, but instead to learn the lesson it is teaching you. Yes, that lesson is often about expectations and attachments, but since I don't know how to live a life in third density without some of those things, I don't see them as eliminable.

Jeremy
It is not that love will tell you what to do.
It is that love will tell you how to do it with love.
Q'uo 3/19/06
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05-02-2018, 05:19 PM,
RE: Wisdom Run Amok
(05-02-2018, 01:35 PM)rva_jeremy Wrote:  I vacillate between dropping my expectations and embracing my disappointment. The former is the healthier option, I think -- to release the need for specific outcomes so that I avoid confusion and suffering. But the latter is actually more spiritually useful -- to not attempt to avoid pain, but instead to learn the lesson it is teaching you. Yes, that lesson is often about expectations and attachments, but since I don't know how to live a life in third density without some of those things, I don't see them as eliminable.


lol,  expectations are dropped during meditation so for a few seconds or long minutes (!), so it's perhaps quite possible to slowly drop expectations more and more.  I love what Diana says about goals.  And, perhaps, little attachments are great,   giving something to work on. Wink

I remember long long time ago reading a conversation in one of Castañeda's books with Don Juan,  about stopping smoking and Don Juan  was saying just drop it, and Carlos was saying  how do I do that, I have tried, and Juan said you just drop it.  Visualize you take it and you drop it.  I thought it was awesome and in fact it worked for me once. Wink
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05-02-2018, 08:49 PM, (This post was last modified: 05-02-2018, 09:29 PM by Elros.)
RE: Wisdom Run Amok
I think expectations always resolve around a state of blockage, so spiritual advancement somewhat holds on either accentuating them (negative path) or liberating them (positive path).

What does it mean to accentuate them? Well, it means that you desire to empower your emotional blockages to the extent that your external reality is controlled by them, that rather than to shift within you want to see what's without shift in your stead. In this scenario, you don't come to accept, you don't come to liberate your emotional potential to feel otherwise, instead you'll deepen the blockages within your emotional field and shutdown your ability to feel positive. It is impossible to reach the heart through expectations, because to begin with they testify of intelligent energy failing to find the love of acceptance on something.

What does it mean to liberate them? Well first, it feels really good (since it's liberating your potential to feel positive), like weights dropping off your shoulder just because you learned that you don't actually need to hold to them outside your beliefs that it was the only manner in which you should feel. It makes your emotional nodes untangle and allows the energy to move upward so that you can feel in new and lighter ways, it's allowing yourself to love without conditions and feel for something as well to be what it rightfully is. It's the movement from conditional love toward being unconditional in one's ability to love.

Maybe the concept of online community is too abstract as a context, let's take something more personal like a father that is soon to have a child. Every father is predisposed in being conditional in their love, as they wil be their own self feeling toward a potential that has yet to manifest any way of being. Perhaps they'll want their child to be alike them and aspire to the same things, or perhaps they'll desire them to achieve beyond what they could achieve, be born with abilities they admire rather than weaknesses they may despise, anything here is possible really since that's the gift of manyness. What does this do? It creates a tension with what is to come and through it a need to resolve this tension, the universe will usually answer with what resolves the tension in time/space through what accentuates its expression in space/time (catalyst), and so often parents have children unlike themselves so that both sides have an opportunity for growth, a mutual service. What the father will experience because of its expectations is on what he will come short to love it's child and instead feel a blocked emotion, the mirror is obviously to itself but that is not how he'll feel things (why wasn't it born more intelligent? less clumsy? hardworking?!) and through this will accentuate what is rejected in its child. If the father was to release all it's expectations, then that'd mean he'd both learn to ability to freely love its child in what it is, but also gain the ability to assist it as best as it can in allowing its child's potential to grow rather than imprison it in its projected perception of both what it is and what it should be. In both my experience and observations, the stronger your expectation are and the stronger you'll manifest against your own self, not because others are wrong but just so you face that you are.

The Ra material has a good point, balance should not be confused with indifference. The free oneself of expectations is not to free oneself from the ability to feel, instead it is to find to feel more positively and freely (without blockages) on more and more things for both how they come and what they are.



As a side note, the purpose of the veil is to accentuate each being conditional, so there's really no need to blame anyone over such an empowered trait of this great experience we share.

If you gaze upon something without expecting it to be perfect, then you may be open to contemplate its actual perfection.
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05-02-2018, 11:47 PM,
RE: Wisdom Run Amok
Honestly, I find this conversation about expectations confusing. I don't see how any form of anger (annoyance, frustration, rage) is not a direct result of an unmet expectation. Therefore to me, saying that someone shouldn't have expectations is like saying they also shouldn't ever be frustrated. That is great if there are people here who are beyond anger, but to "expect" this as being feasible for others is perhaps missing a big part of 3D experience.

In my experience, one usually isn't consciously aware of their expectations until a form of anger (or resistance) is felt, thereby catalytic learning becomes possible. For me the wise response is to welcome the frustration or disappointment (in yourself and in others), to examine it, to meet it with understanding. To say, 'you shouldn't of had the expectation in the first place' seems a little ... repressive?

For example, one may reasonably expect that they be treated with human dignity. OK, but what does that mean for one person? It's subjective. And maybe some people expect others to be supportive because they feel it is a necessity of life, therefore someone withholding support from them is akin to threatening their survival in the world. To take away someone else's expectation that they should be supported (when they are still incapable of supporting themselves completely), seems premature and possibly unbalanced. Is it not better to ask, "what kind of support do you feel that you need?", "what are you hoping to get from others that you can't give yourself?", etc.

<BTW - I'm not talking about anyone specific in this thread, this is just a theoretical argument>
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05-03-2018, 02:29 AM, (This post was last modified: 05-03-2018, 03:31 AM by xise.)
RE: Wisdom Run Amok
While it is indeed true that anything that bothers you - including unmet expectation - is catalyst that can be learned from, I think having no expectations is more of a side-effect of evolution. Or to put another way, the catalyst is no longer needed or needed as much past a certain point of integration. If you're trying to for a rule-based system, and telling yourself to have no expectations, that's less efficient and more akin to suppression of catalyst than organically evolving and learning from the unmet expectations catalsyt to the point where you have no expectations naturally, or at least fewer of them because you have learned the appropriate lessons and balanced the appropriate energies and worldview. I have no yet reached this stage, but I feel I am making progress. In my limited inquiry in the area, I have found that you have less expectation as you begin to embody more love:
  • Specifically, in terms of unmet expectations of others, once you truly begin to shift to a worldview where you love and accept all exercise of free will by of others - even if the others do something unwise, stupid, or even harmful (once again, doesn't mean you that you don't take action against harmful acts, just that you view them as a unique soul making their own decisions and that they are the Creator too and having the utmost respect for that). 
  • In terms of unmet expectations of reality - ie job opportunities, twists and turns in life, etc - I would say that loving and having faith in life and in the universe greatly reduces one sense of expectation that their life needs to be a certain way - I have to be in a certain city, with a certain job, or have to be married at a certain age, etc. Recall that Ra says that there are no mistakes. I have found I myself am slowly but surely coming to this conclusion on my own with respect to my own life.
  • In terms of unmet expectations of the self, I have found that simple self-understanding and self-compassion and accepting the inherent worth of the self regardless of expectations goes a long way.
To be fair, this is very much a work in progress area for me and is a rich area for self-discovery. I love how bring4th threads evolve to cover some many different subtle aspects of inner work, often in a timely and synchronistic fashion. Thank you peregrine for allowing this opportunity to manifest  Heart

-----

Some Ra passages with the word "expectation" or discussing expectation using phrases such as "demands no return" or similar phrases.

Quote:31.5 Questioner: If a sexual energy transfer occurs in green ray— and I am assuming in this case that there is no red-ray energy transfer— does this mean it is impossible then for this particular transfer to include fertilization and the birthing of an entity?

Ra: I am Ra. This is incorrect. There is always the red-ray energy transfer due to the nature of the body complex. The random result of this energy transfer will be as it will be, as a function of the possibility of fertilization at a given time in a given pairing of entities. The green-ray energy transfer occurs due to the vibratory rate of each entity being undistorted in any vital sense by the yellow- or orange-ray energies; thus the gift, shall we say, being given freely, no payment being requested either of the body, of the mind, or of the spirit. The green ray is one of complete universality of love. This is a giving without expectation of return.

Quote:83.18 Questioner: Specifically, by what process in the first case, when two polarized entities would attempt to penetrate the veil, whether they be positively or negatively polarized— specifically by what technique would they penetrate the veil?

Ra: I am Ra. The penetration of the veil may be seen to begin to have its roots in the gestation of green-ray activity, that all-compassionate love which demands no return. If this path is followed the higher energy centers shall be activated and crystallized until the adept is born. Within the adept is the potential for dismantling the veil to a greater or lesser extent that all may be seen again as one. The other-self is primary catalyst in this particular path to the piercing of the veil, if you would call it that.


Quote:54.25 Questioner: Then it seems that those on the positive path as opposed to those on the negative path would have precisely the reciprocal objective in the first three rays; red, orange, and yellow. Each path would be attempting to utilize the rays in precisely opposite manners. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. It is partially and even substantially correct. There is an energy in each of the centers needed to keep the mind/body/spirit complex, which is the vehicle for experience, in correct conformation and composition. Both negative and positive entities do well to reserve this small portion of each center for the maintenance of the integrity of the mind/body/spirit complex. After this point, however, it is correct that the negative will use the three lower centers for separation from and control over others by sexual means, by personal assertion, and by action in your societies.

Contrary-wise, the positively oriented entity will be transmuting strong red-ray sexual energy into green-ray energy transfers and radiation in blue and indigo and will be similarly transmuting selfhood and place in society into energy transfer situations in which the entity may merge with and serve others and then, finally, radiate unto others without expecting any transfer in return.

Quote:66.15 Questioner: Is this desire and will that operates through to the time/space section a function only of the entity who is healed or is it also the function of the healer, the crystallized healer?

Ra: I am Ra. May we take this opportunity to say that this is the activity of the Creator. To specifically answer your query the crystallized healer has no will. It offers an opportunity without attachment to the outcome, for it is aware that all is one and that the Creator is knowing Itself.

Quote:Ra: I am Ra. It is impossible to help another being directly. It is only possible to make catalyst available in whatever form, the most important being the radiation of realization of oneness with the Creator from the self, less important being information such as we share with you.


We, ourselves, do not feel an urgency for this information to be widely disseminated. It is enough that we have made it available to three, four, or five. This is extremely ample reward, for if one of these obtains fourth-density understanding due to this catalyst then we shall have fulfilled the Law of One in the distortion of service.

We encourage a dispassionate attempt to share information without concern for numbers or quick growth among others. That you attempt to make this information available is, in your term, your service. The attempt, if it reaches one, reaches all.

We cannot offer shortcuts to enlightenment. Enlightenment is of the moment, is an opening to intelligent infinity. It can only be accomplished by the self, for the self. Another self cannot teach/learn enlightenment, but only teach/learn information, inspiration, or a sharing of love, of mystery, of the unknown that makes the other-self reach out and begin the seeking process that ends in a moment, but who can know when an entity will open the gate to the present?

Quote:Ra: I am Ra. We scan this instrument and find that we may be of service without infringement due to this instrument’s decision to abide by the most careful appraisal possible rather than the most desired.


We have been surprised that we have been able to maintain contact on a regular basis during this most intense period of negatively influenced interference. Sexual energy transfers have at some workings given this instrument additional vital resources upon which to draw. However, this is not so at this working and, therefore, the will of the instrument drives its bodily complex. This instrument has no judgment about this service. The faculty of will, while recognized as most central and valuable, could in this application cause serious distortion in bodily complex of the instrument. May we note that martyrdom is not necessarily helpful. We ask this instrument to examine these thoughts, judge, and discriminate the possible truth of them, and if they be deemed true we suggest this instrument release the power of judgment to the support group whose interests are balanced far more than this instrument’s. Allow decisions to be made without expectation or attachment to the outcome. Our hopes, may we say, for long-term contact through this instrument depend upon its maturing ability to be of service to other-selves by accepting their help and thus remaining a viable instrument.

Quote:42.7 Questioner: I would like to try to make an analogy for this in third density. Many entities here feel great compassion toward relieving the physical problems of third-density other-selves by administering to them in many ways, bringing them food if there is hunger as there is in the African nations now, bringing them medicine if they believe they require administering to them medically, and being selfless in all of these services to a very great extent.

This is creating a polarization or a vibration that is in harmony with green ray or fourth density. However, it is not balanced with the understanding of fifth density that these entities are experiencing catalyst and a more balanced administration to their needs would be to provide them with the learning necessary to reach the state of awareness of fourth density than it would be to administer to their physical needs at this time. Is this correct?


Ra: I am Ra. This is incorrect. To a mind/body/spirit complex which is starving, the appropriate response is the feeding of the body. You may extrapolate from this.

On the other hand, however, you are correct in your assumption that the green ray response is not as refined as that which has been imbued with wisdom. This wisdom enables the entity to appreciate its contributions to the planetary consciousness by the quality of its being, without regard to activity or behavior which expects results upon visible planes.

Service to Others means Service to All. That includes yourself.
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05-03-2018, 11:59 AM,
RE: Wisdom Run Amok
I just want to say that I think this conversation is a great example of us meeting our potential as a discussion forum. It is an absolute pleasure to read y'all.

Jeremy
It is not that love will tell you what to do.
It is that love will tell you how to do it with love.
Q'uo 3/19/06
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05-03-2018, 12:54 PM, (This post was last modified: 05-03-2018, 01:31 PM by Diana.)
RE: Wisdom Run Amok
@ rva_jeremy: I so agree!

@ xise: thank you for all the quotes about attachment to outcomes. I wasn't aware of them.

(05-02-2018, 11:47 PM)Louisabell Wrote:  Honestly, I find this conversation about expectations confusing. I don't see how any form of anger (annoyance, frustration, rage) is not a direct result of an unmet expectation. Therefore to me, saying that someone shouldn't have expectations is like saying they also shouldn't ever be frustrated. That is great if there are people here who are beyond anger, but to "expect" this as being feasible for others is perhaps missing a big part of 3D experience.

In my experience, one usually isn't consciously aware of their expectations until a form of anger (or resistance) is felt, thereby catalytic learning becomes possible. For me the wise response is to welcome the frustration or disappointment (in yourself and in others), to examine it, to meet it with understanding. To say, 'you shouldn't of had the expectation in the first place' seems a little ... repressive?

First of all. there is no "shouldn't." Smile

I believe I am the one always talking about not being attached to outcomes, and to examine expectations. (And I don't care that your comments in this post may have  been made in response to my opinions; I welcome the opportunity to canvass the subject and if we all agree, there is no widening of perspective or awareness.) But my posts also advise NOT to repress anger or any emotions. I agree with xise that evolution of consciousness is an organic process, not a set of rules to follow. But that doesn't mean one can't be the observer of one's self.

For example, your reaction—anyone's reaction—to words or a situation, is an opportunity to take a look at self. There is the concept of "letting go." Letting go does not mean repress, or deny. Letting go implies flexibility, willingness to step outside one's paradigm, looking at things differently and in a way counter to habit, ingrained beliefs, and cultural rubric. To observe self is to act, not react. Reacting is fine, but I am saying when one does react, this is a good time to act (observe).

(05-02-2018, 11:47 PM)Louisabell Wrote:  For example, one may reasonably expect that they be treated with human dignity. OK, but what does that mean for one person? It's subjective. And maybe some people expect others to be supportive because they feel it is a necessity of life, therefore someone withholding support from them is akin to threatening their survival in the world. To take away someone else's expectation that they should be supported (when they are still incapable of supporting themselves completely), seems premature and possibly unbalanced. Is it not better to ask, "what kind of support do you feel that you need?", "what are you hoping to get from others that you can't give yourself?", etc.

No one is taking anyone's expectations away. All of this is theoretical and a discussion for the purpose of exploring existence. If one has a child, for example, does one coddle that child forever and protect it from the world, or allow that child to learn and grow and find its own path?

Personally, I don't expect to be treated with "human" dignity; for one thing, I don't think the general state of humanity is beyond self-centered concerns for the most part (and that extends to the individual's circle of existence). That doesn't mean there aren't times when I'm surprised and the result is anger, or sadness, etc.—and then I have the opportunity to examine a possible trigger. I don't repress the source of what I can learn from, but I don't indulge in it either.

It is my responsibility to support myself, not someone else's. It's nice to have friendly support. But if I expect others to support me I am putting a burden on them that has nothing to do with them—it is my need, not their job. This may sound harsh, but it is in fact being accountable and taking responsibility, and allowing others to be themselves with no conditions (unconditional acceptance). If I have a partner who does not support me emotionally, for example, this is an opportunity to ask myself why I am expecting it or needing it. This is not the time, in my opinion, to wonder what is wrong with my partner. Maybe I wasn't nurtured as a child; maybe current modalities of relationship standards is influencing what I think a relationship should be; maybe I'm a wanderer who has a buried memory of a more "loving" community—and so on ad infinitum. The point is, the answer lies within me, not outside of me. The partner, who "hasn't given me what I need," then could be seen to be a gift for pointing out my own need/trigger/blockage/ etc. to me. In other words, if I am open to it, I can recognize catalyst and see it as a good thing.

It's not easy. There is so much suffering in this world it is difficult to be detached. But that doesn't mean one stops observing self, and examining conditional thinking and reacting.
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05-03-2018, 08:51 PM, (This post was last modified: 05-03-2018, 09:55 PM by Louisabell.)
RE: Wisdom Run Amok
(05-03-2018, 12:54 PM)Diana Wrote:  
(05-02-2018, 11:47 PM)Louisabell Wrote:  Honestly, I find this conversation about expectations confusing. I don't see how any form of anger (annoyance, frustration, rage) is not a direct result of an unmet expectation. Therefore to me, saying that someone shouldn't have expectations is like saying they also shouldn't ever be frustrated. That is great if there are people here who are beyond anger, but to "expect" this as being feasible for others is perhaps missing a big part of 3D experience.

In my experience, one usually isn't consciously aware of their expectations until a form of anger (or resistance) is felt, thereby catalytic learning becomes possible. For me the wise response is to welcome the frustration or disappointment (in yourself and in others), to examine it, to meet it with understanding. To say, 'you shouldn't of had the expectation in the first place' seems a little ... repressive?

First of all. there is no "shouldn't." Smile

I believe I am the one always talking about not being attached to outcomes, and to examine expectations. (And I don't care that your comments in this post may have  been made in response to my opinions; I welcome the opportunity to canvass the subject and if we all agree, there is no widening of perspective or awareness.) But my posts also advise NOT to repress anger or any emotions. I agree with xise that evolution of consciousness is an organic process, not a set of rules to follow. But that doesn't mean one can't be the observer of one's self.

For example, your reaction—anyone's reaction—to words or a situation, is an opportunity to take a look at self. There is the concept of "letting go." Letting go does not mean repress, or deny. Letting go implies flexibility, willingness to step outside one's paradigm, looking at things differently and in a way counter to habit, ingrained beliefs, and cultural rubric. To observe self is to act, not react. Reacting is fine, but I am saying when one does react, this is a good time to act (observe).



(05-02-2018, 11:47 PM)Louisabell Wrote:  For example, one may reasonably expect that they be treated with human dignity. OK, but what does that mean for one person? It's subjective. And maybe some people expect others to be supportive because they feel it is a necessity of life, therefore someone withholding support from them is akin to threatening their survival in the world. To take away someone else's expectation that they should be supported (when they are still incapable of supporting themselves completely), seems premature and possibly unbalanced. Is it not better to ask, "what kind of support do you feel that you need?", "what are you hoping to get from others that you can't give yourself?", etc.

No one is taking anyone's expectations away. All of this is theoretical and a discussion for the purpose of exploring existence. If one has a child, for example, does one coddle that child forever and protect it from the world, or allow that child to learn and grow and find its own path?

Personally, I don't expect to be treated with "human" dignity; for one thing, I don't think the general state of humanity is beyond self-centered concerns for the most part (and that extends to the individual's circle of existence). That doesn't mean there aren't times when I'm surprised and the result is anger, or sadness, etc.—and then I have the opportunity to examine a possible trigger. I don't repress the source of what I can learn from, but I don't indulge in it either.

It is my responsibility to support myself, not someone else's. It's nice to have friendly support. But if I expect others to support me I am putting a burden on them that has nothing to do with them—it is my need, not their job. This may sound harsh, but it is in fact being accountable and taking responsibility, and allowing others to be themselves with no conditions (unconditional acceptance). If I have a partner who does not support me emotionally, for example, this is an opportunity to ask myself why I am expecting it or needing it. This is not the time, in my opinion, to wonder what is wrong with my partner. Maybe I wasn't nurtured as a child; maybe current modalities of relationship standards is influencing what I think a relationship should be; maybe I'm a wanderer who has a buried memory of a more "loving" community—and so on ad infinitum. The point is, the answer lies within me, not outside of me. The partner, who "hasn't given me what I need," then could be seen to be a gift for pointing out my own need/trigger/blockage/ etc. to me. In other words, if I am open to it, I can recognize catalyst and see it as a good thing.

It's not easy. There is so much suffering in this world it is difficult to be detached. But that doesn't mean one stops observing self, and examining conditional thinking and reacting.

Thank you for sharing your life experiences. I too relate, as I have been heavily into Byron Katie's work lately - the turn arounds are so illuminating (if anyone else has done the worksheet).

I was responding to the reactions that a poster got after he presented criticisms on the forum. It was discussed that if the poster had no expectations in the first place then there wouldn't of been a problem. However, evidently he did have some unmet expectations (which is a totally normal thing) by the very nature of his commentary. So I see this type of reaction as a pushing back of what is.

I hoped to balance those statements made about expectations, which are true, but I felt lacked some context. I think STO people are quite modest and may not realise that what they are doing is very advanced work that is the cummulation of many lifetimes.

To be fair, it's already advanced to see most (if not all) external catalyst as a reflection of one's own biases, let alone being at a stage where one is nearing the cessation of anger by living in a space with little to no expectations from their external environment. It is commendable.

But the danger of presenting de-attachment as an ideal to another which is experiencing an emotional catalyst is that they instead hear dismissal and dissociation. For to de-attach with a fully open heart is such a complicated thing, the essence of it can easily get lost in words, which are by their very nature clumsy.

Therefore I was trying to say that there are some precursory steps to be considered so that others who are experiencing catalyst aren't made to feel spiritual shame and repress their impulses. Instead we can mirror back what we already do internally (as you have said that you do with your inner process) - honor the anger, question it, find its root, understand and accept it (thereby lessening future expectation).
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05-03-2018, 09:11 PM,
RE: Wisdom Run Amok
(05-03-2018, 08:51 PM)Louisabell Wrote:  To be fair, it's already advanced to see most (if not all) external catalyst as a reflection of one's own biases, let alone being at a stage where one is nearing the cessation of anger by living in a space with little to no expectations from their external environment. It is commendable.

This part really stood out for me. It makes us powerful co-creators if we're not attached to our creation.

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05-03-2018, 10:22 PM,
RE: Wisdom Run Amok
(05-02-2018, 01:35 PM)rva_jeremy Wrote:  I vacillate between dropping my expectations and embracing my disappointment. The former is the healthier option, I think -- to release the need for specific outcomes so that I avoid confusion and suffering. But the latter is actually more spiritually useful -- to not attempt to avoid pain, but instead to learn the lesson it is teaching you. Yes, that lesson is often about expectations and attachments, but since I don't know how to live a life in third density without some of those things, I don't see them as eliminable.

Dropping all expectations while expecting everything. Embracing disappointment while embracing fulfillment.

All at the same time... However, that would be the mode of existence of a very highly balanced high density entity...

......

Expectations exist in everyone. But when they turn into demands or fixations, they block flow of energy and unfolding of creation. For what is really desired deep within may not be the thing consciously expected, and what is demanded may be distracting from what is actually desired.

......

When applied to people, relationships, society, discussion forums, groups, expectations and demands may not only create conflict due to their inherent implicit requirement that the group/people comply with those expectations and demands, but also they could easily block any social group or relationship from achieving its fulfillment. With that, what that person, relationship, group or social environment could offer to the seeker could easily be missed, unutilized, and instead all that would be gotten would be conflict.

A seeker can get whatever is particularly being offered from anything at a given time. Just like how the story, setting, people unfold in many books in spiritual literature. Not everyone comes to the path of the voyager to give everything. Each of them have something to give to each other.

Even the deepest relationships are the same - one's best friend can only offer a high percentage of one's expectations, and even so s/he may be compatible in a given set of intellectual and emotional exchanges. May be very good friend to play games with, but may not like baseball. Another may be a very good friend to talk cultural things with, but may not like politics. Trying to extract what they are not inclined to from them would lead to conflict and unwisdom. Instead whatever any person can give should be accepted and received graciously, and whatever is needed or desired should be sought from whomever can give it.

This principle stays the same in higher densities. To fulfill everything, everything in infinite creation must synchronize, integrate and combine into infinity, in which infinite facets of existence will provide infinite faces to each other to complete each other.
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05-21-2018, 03:55 AM,
RE: Wisdom Run Amok
I think this has to do with a text based forum.

You guys could express love much more obviously through videos: a Bring4th section of YouTube.

Twitch streaming for Love and Light.


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