Wisdom Run Amok
04-26-2018, 05:26 PM,
#91
RE: Wisdom Run Amok
(04-26-2018, 12:25 PM)Diana Wrote:  Not all cultures besides contemporary American avoid direct confrontations of what they actually think, such as some Asian cultures. In China in business, there are elaborate protocols of "politeness" which must be observed, and you may find yourself fired from doing business with a company for things you may not even realize, such as inadvertently moving a feng shui bagua. In Japan, "politeness" is intrinsic to the culture, where circling around directness is commonly practiced. I personally think it's too much like passive-aggressive behavior. And I am speaking generally, not trying to fit everyone into a stereotypical box. 

Correct. However in neither culture politeness takes the form of appeasing falsities or doing insincere, manipulative conversation to tell someone that s/he is wrong/incorrect, without making him or her realize that you are telling that s/he is wrong. In Japan for example, you may change the subject, you may act as if the person never said something like that, or, you may go about telling him or her that she is wrong in an excessively polite way. But that never takes the form of telling someone that s/he is wrong while making it appear as if you are actually agreeing with his or her error.

In contemporary (progressive) american culture, this kind of behavior seems to gone out of hand.

understandable, in a sense, since as an immigrant culture, it has to find ways to try and avoid any confrontation while trying to create some cohesion and unity. But that definitely isnt a good way of doing that...

Quote:There is also an observable and general difference between the coastal areas of the U.S. I am from NY and New Yorkers have a reputation for being blunt, forthright, outspoken etc.; and juxtaposed to this is the west coast California attitude which sometimes is called "fake."

Yes there are many cultural variations in US. I found out that people from conservative areas were more blunt, as well as various subcultures differing in their attitudes. But for some reason what seems to reflect on internet general discourse from US seems to be what you call 'fake'.

Being considerate is important. However when it is brought to the level of appeasing falsities, it ends up in lunacies like flat earth taking hold. And that's only the start, by the way. One look at rather 'far-out' forums makes one realize that new types of lunacies are brewing.

Quote:I think I am more like you in this, Unity100, as far as I can tell from words on a screen, that I prefer honesty and forthrightness. But as I have said, I am still trying to balance this with kindness. What I have gleaned from my attempts is that it is really about detachment, not politeness or kindness. Because I don't think it's kind to lie—therein has been the essence of my conflict. But when I am detached from this world, or rather, it might be expressed as accepting, things seem to fall in place more easily with no conflict.

But this too has its challenges, as the more accepting/detached, the more the feeling of separation in a sense. And I suppose that's just another step along the way of integrating—really doing it, not just imagining—the bigger picture. Like A. Square in his cozy 2-dimensional world, even when shown the 3D world by A. Cube, he did not quite get it, but at the same time he now could never be the same—and so there would be some separation between him and the others in his world.

Yes, there has to be a certain amount of separation in every density, vibration, path - in every single aspect. Because otherwise it becomes unworkable. Everyone goes dysfunctional.

Can someone appease every other person's 'truth' on internet or in real life? How much false appeasement masquerading as 'kindness' does it take to appease the appeasement necessity of an entire culture?

How long can one twist words and sentiments to avoid conflict? Can a handful of grounded people do that for an entire culture?

After a certain point it becomes a matter of choice and a decision to walk one's own path. Because someone choosing to do so could never take two steps ahead while looking into the horizon. And would instead constantly look left, right, down below.

Some could say that such measured detachment which makes one able to walk his/her path is uncaring. Yet then again, wouldnt it be actual arrogance, even if total foolishness to think that someone can solve everyone's problems? Isnt it more realistic and correct to realize that in the infinite sea of existence, there will be infinite numbers of entities helping each other when they need, where they need, and things will just happen as they need be, even if the person looks into the horizon and walks forward...

If something comes up in one's way, then it means it was meant to be looked at. Then, it is wise to do so. Even if it is a conflict.

But if something is not fated to be in one's path, it becomes increasingly unwise to stray from the path. For paths are infinite, and there is no end to wandering...
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04-26-2018, 05:37 PM,
#92
RE: Wisdom Run Amok
(04-26-2018, 01:32 PM)rva_jeremy Wrote:  
Unity100 Wrote:Offense of 'telling someone that he is wrong' seems to exist almost only in contemporary american culture.

When it comes to a matter of deep spiritual significance and belief to a person, I don't think it's uniquely American to take offense at being told one is wrong. If you told a devout Muslim or Christian in your own country that he or she is wrong on a point involving their faith, you would likely cause much more than mere offense.

If the framework for standards in such a spiritual forum would be semitic religions, we would end up having no discussion at all.

This, is a forum pertaining mostly to Ra material. Its the most direct, clear, blunt spiritualist material there is. Its not Bartholomew, Ramtha, or Silver Birch.

Someone being attracted to such material and coming to discuss things in public with other students would need to be focused on the knowledge than personal biases and the insecurities those may bring.

For, to put it in street speak, "this sh*t is real". There is decent chance of destabilizing one's own by misunderstanding or misusing this material. Oppositely, there is great chance of making great strides by proper understanding and usage of the knowledge within the very same material...

Quote:It might be useful to consider that when you correct somebody on something that has deep meaning to them, you are asking more of them than simply to acknowledge the truth value of your point; you are asking them to change a belief with subjective significance, often something tied to their identity, and that is not always easy for anybody.

Incorrectly citing a material people are collectively studying is not a personal bias, jeremy. Lets get real. Its a mistake, however you look at it. Which was what was done by talking about how blue/wisdom was negatively polarized.

To make an analogy from mathematics, its like someone saying that 2+2 is 5. Even if it has great meaning to someone personally, it is just flat out wrong and there is no other way to put it.

Other things which are uncertain and left to interpretation, yeah, you have a point. Then again you wont find me or people of the same persuasion going around falsifying such stuff.
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04-26-2018, 06:51 PM,
#93
RE: Wisdom Run Amok
(04-26-2018, 05:26 PM)unity100 Wrote:  Some could say that such measured detachment which makes one able to walk his/her path is uncaring. Yet then again, wouldnt it be actual arrogance, even if total foolishness to think that someone can solve everyone's problems? Isnt it more realistic and correct to realize that in the infinite sea of existence, there will be infinite numbers of entities helping each other when they need, where they need, and things will just happen as they need be, even if the person looks into the horizon and walks forward...

If something comes up in one's way, then it means it was meant to be looked at. Then, it is wise to do so. Even if it is a conflict.

But if something is not fated to be in one's path, it becomes increasingly unwise to stray from the path. For paths are infinite, and there is no end to wandering...

Very wise words in my estimation.
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04-26-2018, 07:14 PM, (This post was last modified: 04-26-2018, 07:58 PM by Louisabell.)
#94
RE: Wisdom Run Amok
In the spirit of blunt communication I wanted to add that I think it's highly patronising to peregrine to reduce his arguments down to him simply not being able to handle being told he is wrong. All I see on this forum is spirited debate, more so than the average. It is clearly a mischaractisation of what was actually said in order to bring the argument into a space that is irrefutable.

I believe the complaint was more on the authority to which some here speak from about topics which have no authority. Interpretations on a text are subjective, there is no getting around that. And when there was a textual incongruency it was simply blown out of proportion -
(04-25-2018, 11:25 PM)unity100 Wrote:  As i said before, it is important since it affects entire perception of the world, including the society we are in. In the light of this knowledge, a lot of notable and celebrated personas in politics, entertainment, religion and business would suddenly evaluate to negative entities.

Or perhaps the more likely scenario, instead of needing to change one's whole morality framework, is that someone will simply adjust their concept of what the blue ray actually is - something that can't be measured as it doesn't even exist in the physical.

As a side note, I am very grateful that I live where there is a strong pay-out culture, it feels so freeing to be able to laugh about one's self.
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04-26-2018, 07:16 PM,
#95
RE: Wisdom Run Amok
(04-26-2018, 05:37 PM)unity100 Wrote:  
(04-26-2018, 01:32 PM)rva_jeremy Wrote:  When it comes to a matter of deep spiritual significance and belief to a person, I don't think it's uniquely American to take offense at being told one is wrong. If you told a devout Muslim or Christian in your own country that he or she is wrong on a point involving their faith, you would likely cause much more than mere offense.

If the framework for standards in such a spiritual forum would be semitic religions, we would end up having no discussion at all.

I'd be interested in what standards comprise this framework you're citing. This could be a part of the constant misunderstandings between you and others.

But regardless, my analogy is sound insofar as it goes, I'd argue. The point is not whether you think it's reasonable to take offense; I can personally understand where you're coming from. I appreciate your directness and your answers to my questions (you weren't correcting me since I wasn't making a claim; I was asking a question).

Instead, the point is that some people undoubtedly do take offense -- and this has been 100% par for the course on Bring4th since I first joined way, way back when it first launched. We're stuck with you, and you with us, as long as we all want to use the same board. Why not try to get along? In the same way that you might be more careful asking a theological question to a devout muslim, why not apply the same thinking here? And we'll try not to take it so personally?

Jeremy
It is not that love will tell you what to do.
It is that love will tell you how to do it with love.
Q'uo 3/19/06
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04-26-2018, 07:35 PM,
#96
RE: Wisdom Run Amok
lol, what is more it there's taking offense, there's a big chance that the person leaves the conversation and then there's no more conversation, which is way too sad Big Grin
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04-27-2018, 02:41 AM,
#97
RE: Wisdom Run Amok
I want to first thank peregrine for starting this excellent thread, it is in my opinion one of the potentially most fruitfull in a long time!
There is always a lot of abstract discussion going on here, but for me, spiritual development has much more to do with how we interact with people, with our personal relationships, than with "dry knowledge", which often has little relevance for how we experience life.
That being said, I want to start with @unity100 and the reactions of the community:

@unity100

To start with, I have been living in gemany for my whole life, and how you discribe this culture has nothing at all to do with what i experienced in almost 50 years here. nothing...
Here its like probably everywhere else in the western culture, some people are more open, others aren't.
Verbal communication for me has two levels, one being the words used, the other being the undlying energy.
There is nothing wrong with sharing your opinion, nothing wrong with pointing out "mistakes" or "misconception".
Your posts in this thread however contain an energy of arrogance, offense and aggressiveness and this is what offends. And I dont believe there is any culture in this world where people welcome such aggressiveness!

I understand that you felt attacked or offended for some reason.
But even if that is so, I dont feel its justified to attack back.
You could instead point this out, that could help to clarify potential misunderstandings.
If it shows that you in fact have been attacked, the attacker could become aware of it and apologize, for example.

still @unity
What I am in general trying to convey is NOT that you or anybody else is wrong!
I believe we all have the same goal, we want to grow, we all want (thats what i believe at least) experience all the "cool" things Ra and many other sources speak of.
I am speaking from a perspective where I actually experienced many of these things and regularly do.
And from that perspective I am trying to offer methods, approaches and stuff that are meant To HELP people to actually EXPERIENCE these "things" themselves, as opposed to forever speculating.
Because what I found is, if I actually experience these "things" its absolutely different, and i really mean absolute, from everything I imagined it to be.
So, maybe you could be open to the possibility that actually i am trying to reach out to you and offer support, as flawed as my offerring might be.

@the community

I feel that this thread shows a lot how we view this community, how we interact one a one-to-one level and one a one-to-group level.
What kind of community do you want this to be?

Is it just a random anonymous internet forum?
Or is it a spiritual community?
Is this a place where we share openly and deeply, or just like any other forum a place of ultimately limited relevance to our personal lives?

For me, spiritual development is a very deep thing. Its about my deepest desires, my deepest fears, my biggest flaws and difficulties, its about my most sacred experiences.
And for me, that takes a huge amount of courage to share, and for me to share that, i feel that a sense of community, of family, of support is crucial!

In this thread, I experience many (not all) participants as very "detached".
But I wonder, if that is a detachment that comes from an open heart, from a place of compassion of support.
I cant help but suspect that its more the refusal to really commit, to not get personally involved. I think that keeps it on a somehow superficial level, I mean, what kind of community is it, if nobody (exagerated) wants to commit, to participate on a personal level?

I want to give a personal example for illustration:
(this is NOT opposing unity100 here!!)

In this thread I have been accused of trolling this forum.
It has been said, I just wanted to create conflict among members and so on.
(If thats unity's perceiption of my posts, so be it)
But what dissapointed me was the reaction of other participants:
No reaction (except for sprout, thank you sprout).
If have really put a lot of effort and love in trying to help this community as well as many times supporting members in emergency states.
You might notice, that (except for sprout) NO ONE spoke to my defense! Instead, the discussion just went on, as if nothing had happened.
Same thing a few posts later!
That either indicates that everybody shares this opinion, which would be a huge slap in my face, or that no one has the courage, the "balls", to get involved and say something.

And I have to clearly state, that i am personally very dissapointed Sad


That being said, I believe that our relationships, every relationship, does help much more in evolving than tons of abstract discussions!

One more thing:
If I want to hear Ra speaking, I read the Ra material, no need to come here.
I sometimes feel that Ra quotes are being instrumentalized, for what ever reason.
Maybe to support your own view. But then, Ra stated multiple times, that they dont want to be an authority.
Make yourself the authority, your inner source, trust in yourself, dare to make mistakes, to be wrong.
I would like to hear YOUR truth.
There is nothing to be found outside of you, it is all inside of you!
And it is really hard to find yourself outside of you Wink
I would like to hear of YOUR genuine experiences and learn from them, much more than Ra quotes.

This is like cherrypicking, quoting Ra to support an opinion and prove something right by Ra's authority, while omitting the crucial Ra statement that they dont want to be an authority Wink
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Highrculling
04-27-2018, 02:47 AM,
#98
RE: Wisdom Run Amok
(04-27-2018, 02:41 AM)Agua Wrote:  You might notice, that (except for sprout) NO ONE spoke to my defense! Instead, the discussion just went on, as if nothing had happened.

I would have spoke to your defense. I'm just not conscious enough as to what is going on.
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04-27-2018, 03:10 AM,
#99
RE: Wisdom Run Amok
(04-27-2018, 02:47 AM)IndigoGeminiWolf Wrote:  
(04-27-2018, 02:41 AM)Agua Wrote:  You might notice, that (except for sprout) NO ONE spoke to my defense! Instead, the discussion just went on, as if nothing had happened.

I would have spoke to your defense. I'm just not conscious enough as to what is going on.

Hey Indigo,
that wasnt tailored to you!
You expressed your appreciation very much in that other thread, so no worries Smile
Thank you, dear Indy Smile
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04-27-2018, 09:24 AM,
RE: Wisdom Run Amok
Agua Wrote:But I wonder, if that is a detachment that comes from an open heart, from a place of compassion of support.

I think it's detachment that comes from the limitations of an internet forum. I mean, there's little more detached than me typing at my keyboard and sending it off!

If this is a spiritual forum, then the idea of "defending" oneself or another is already a kind of misstep or lesson to be learned. I encourage folks to use the feelings these encounters engender as grist for the mill. It's ok to feel bad, uncomfortable, etc. -- these are not problems, they are signs pointing at something we can look at and better appreciate.

That's the thing: nobody needs "defense" from Unity100. He's completely entitled to his opinion! If you disagree, that's fine. You don't have to take his word for it. You don't have to make him accept the validity of your viewpoint if he rejects it.

I get why Unity100's tone irks people, and that's what I've attempted to address with him in my imperfect manner, but if it wasn't him it'd be somebody else irking you. This being a spiritual place is not equivalent to it being a place without any conflict or discomfort whatsoever. Hatonn puts this perfectly in their discussion of discipline:

Hatonn Wrote:My friends, it is so easy to think that the feast, the love, and the unity that you experience in moments of inspiration will be a natural fruit of your attempting to manifest these qualities through your being. However, this is far from the truth. When you choose to seek the truth, you embark upon a very personal journey, and one which will differ from person to person because of the unique nature of each being. Therefore, the first fruit of seeking may well be dissension, and the peace that you find will only be found at the end of a process of communication that may be very painful. When you seek the truth, you are acting as a creation inspired by an ideal. You move according to the winds of your own particular needs and energies, and those closest to you, if they are also seeking, shall also be in motion.

Perhaps you may look with dismay upon this first fruit of seeking, and yet we say to you it is entirely necessary within third density to use the illusion in order to open communication to the level of spiritual verbalizations. If you have a disagreement, count yourself blessed, for you may then use your manifested seeking to turn towards another self openly and fearlessly. Without seeking and grasping the principles of the discipline of the self, it is almost impossible to communicate clearly and with a minimum of bias. The chance to do so is precious indeed, and because success is so hard won it is worth a great deal. We come among you only as brothers and sisters and do not wish to add to your burdens, but we do challenge you to retain that fine sense of the ideal, that great seeking for the one original Thought, while gazing with a clear and careful eye upon each situation that seems to be quite out of keeping with all the effort and all the love you have given to that situation.

Do not let your heart falter because there are great difficulties, minor disagreements, or poor feelings. Know that your third density is doing what you planned for it to do, and now is your chance to use it wisely. When you were a child, did your parent see fit to discipline you? How much more wise is your higher self which offers you disciplines. You are not weak to be patient or poor in heart to strive for cheerfulness. You are not failing your brother or your sister when you step back from a confrontation that would leave a brother on one side and a sister upon another, and strive to reestablish by clear communication through dissension the final understanding that you are one being. If you have compassion, then you must seek discipline.

We shall at this time show some discipline by refraining from exercising the other instruments within this domicile, for they have come to listen and to be refreshed. Take refreshment from all that you can. Drink deep in the glory and the beauty that is around you, but do not feel betrayed by apparent disharmony. Isn’t it just like you, each of you, seekers all, to plan for yourself some hard times, some rough knocks, so that you might more clearly express your grasp of the truth and your penetration of all apparent separation.

We give this instrument a vision it does not understand. This instrument sees the hammer descending upon the anvil and the rock breaking. We attempt to say to this instrument that that which is not tempered will break. Go through the fire of experience willingly, my friends, and be tempered a bit at a time, that with experience you may bend and learn and become stronger, and serve more and more that great ideal that you so cherish. On the surface the spiritual path seems poetic and dramatic and will attract many who will become weak-hearted. Know, my friends, the spiritual path is for those who are tough and wish to become tougher. Perfect compassion involves an unbelievable personal discipline, for how in this great illusion can you naturally believe that all others are one with you?

Jeremy
It is not that love will tell you what to do.
It is that love will tell you how to do it with love.
Q'uo 3/19/06
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04-27-2018, 11:49 AM,
RE: Wisdom Run Amok
Beautiful quote from Hatonn, Jeremy, thank you so much.

Agua I didn't defend you at all but I was so happy to find you were Agua Del Cielo !!! I have been absent of the forum for a great part of last year as I got entangled with lots of work, but Agua I am so glad you are back here !!

I love this site because I love so much Ra, and the idea to be able to discuss and debate whatever is in the material nourishes me. I think perhaps discussions are sometimes see-sawing because to really talk about your own inner spiritual thoughts, is so personal, and sometimes so difficult to express the way it really feels inside. I can at times be courageous when very impassioned with a subject, then sometimes revert to my old weak self. Many here I find very inspiring, and not necessarily someone I would totally agree with..
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04-27-2018, 12:27 PM, (This post was last modified: 04-27-2018, 12:53 PM by Diana.)
RE: Wisdom Run Amok
(04-27-2018, 02:41 AM)Agua Wrote:  I feel that this thread shows a lot how we view this community, how we interact one a one-to-one level and one a one-to-group level.
What kind of community do you want this to be?

Is it just a random anonymous internet forum?
Or is it a spiritual community?
Is this a place where we share openly and deeply, or just like any other forum a place of ultimately limited relevance to our personal lives?

I personally find it a very, very different thing altogether to interact with someone in person and to interact with people via words typed on a screen. In person, I can look at someone and convey that I care with no words at all; I can put a hand on her/his shoulder and the person can feel my caring energy; and this way, I don't make any judgments about them or their concerns, I simply accept it all and lend my support. I can't do this on the Internet.

There are some members who are very good at conveying emotionality, at writing words which better reach the heart. I am not one of those. But I do think each and every one of us, and indeed all individuals and all life forms, have something to offer—no matter what that offering may appear to be or not be.

Expectations often get in the way of almost everything in life, in my opinion. Expectations are not the same as desires, or goals—they are the collapsing of perception to a single outcome. And here I am going to add the Bruce Lee quote again:

[Image: bringthbruceleequotejpg.jpg]

I have felt similarly regarding the vegan/vegetarian threads, in that I was taken aback at what I thought was a lack of community with the animal kingdom, with whom I am deeply connected and concerned. But interacting with the diversity of voices here helped me to widen my understanding of myself, and lessen my judgments, while at the same time not shifting my own convictions regarding respect for all life.

(04-27-2018, 02:41 AM)Agua Wrote:  For me, spiritual development is a very deep thing. Its about my deepest desires, my deepest fears, my biggest flaws and difficulties, its about my most sacred experiences.
And for me, that takes a huge amount of courage to share, and for me to share that, i feel that a sense of community, of family, of support is crucial!

I get that. And it seems ideal that there would be a community of comprehensive and unconditional support. But there is no guarantee that people who are "spiritual" are any more enlightened or sincerely loving than anyone else. I have never been in a gathering or group—spiritually oriented—to show otherwise.

So the courage of which you speak, for me, goes a step further, in that putting myself out there involves doing so with no support, no expectations, no thought that what I say or do will make any difference at all. I do so—I think—because of a human (or otherwise) solidarity with other humans and life forms, that I share who I am with all. That I "add my light to the sum of light" (from the movie The Year of Living Dangerously).

This is not to say it doesn't sting sometimes when heartfelt expressions fall on deaf ears, or people lash back (usually out of defensiveness). But these things are on them; they are not on me as long as I have not expected anything from them; as long as I accept them for who they are; if I don't attach to an outcome. What I mean by that is not that I don't care or want to help; what I mean is that I accept responsibility and accountability for myself only, and I do not accept responsibiilty and accountability for anyone else, because that is theirs, not mine to accept. I can't do it for them. It is like the Christian idea of Jesus taking sin away from others—I think this idea is reprehensible. Where is the accountability in that?

(04-27-2018, 02:41 AM)Agua Wrote:  In this thread, I experience many (not all) participants as very "detached".
But I wonder, if that is a detachment that comes from an open heart, from a place of compassion of support.

We all, I think, have our hearts opened to different aspects of life on Earth.

I could say the same thing about every member who eats cruelly tortured and slaughtered animals (even baby animals). There is no one on this planet, I daresay, with a fully open heart. 

I don't think a person could even stay here for one minute with a fully open heart; the amount of suffering on this planet, children starving and abused, lab animals experimented on in horrible ways, the unbelievable cruelty of meat animal factory farms, down to insects sprayed with pesticides (and I will guess that almost no one cares about the insects or feels their suffering, which proves my point that hearts are not fully open here) and the raping of the Earth with fracking and the like, the forest service doing what they call controlled burns, and on and on ad nauseam. I think this would destroy the last bit of will to live here, as it did the famous photographer who committed suicide after photographing the starving African child who collapsed and died just feet from the food wagon.

(04-27-2018, 02:41 AM)Agua Wrote:  I cant help but suspect that its more the refusal to really commit, to not get personally involved. I think that keeps it on a somehow superficial level, I mean, what kind of community is it, if nobody (exagerated) wants to commit, to participate on a personal level?
...In this thread I have been accused of trolling this forum. It has been said, I just wanted to create conflict among members and so on.
...That either indicates that everybody shares this opinion, which would be a huge slap in my face, or that no one has the courage, the "balls", to get involved and say something.

Those are not the only options, though it's understandable it seems that way. In my case, I didn't think those things, and I do have the courage to say what I think (though I endeavor to "act" not "react"). I'm a proactive personality, who keeps moving forward. Perhaps this is selfish, I don't know. But I don't mire myself down in squabbling generally, and you seem like a mature, intelligent person who can stand up for himself, and, arguing with silly comments seems like a waste of time to me on this forum and indeed in life in general.
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04-27-2018, 12:44 PM,
RE: Wisdom Run Amok
Thank you for your reply, Jeremy, quite interesting indeed!

(04-27-2018, 09:24 AM)rva_jeremy Wrote:  I think it's detachment that comes from the limitations of an internet forum. I mean, there's little more detached than me typing at my keyboard and sending it off!

Seems we have a different approach here.
I understand what you say about the limitations of an internet forum.
However, when I write here, I try to connect as much as possible with to whoever I write, especially since this is a spiritual forum.
For me, really connecting, especially on a heart level is very important when it comes to spirituality!

(04-27-2018, 09:24 AM)rva_jeremy Wrote:  If this is a spiritual forum, then the idea of "defending" oneself or another is already a kind of misstep or lesson to be learned. I encourage folks to use the feelings these encounters engender as grist for the mill. It's ok to feel bad, uncomfortable, etc. -- these are not problems, they are signs pointing at something we can look at and better appreciate.

That's the thing: nobody needs "defense" from Unity100. He's completely entitled to his opinion! If you disagree, that's fine. You don't have to take his word for it. You don't have to make him accept the validity of your viewpoint if he rejects it.

I get why Unity100's tone irks people, and that's what I've attempted to address with him in my imperfect manner, but if it wasn't him it'd be somebody else irking you. This being a spiritual place is not equivalent to it being a place without any conflict or discomfort whatsoever.

I am not sure if you understood what I was saying in regards to defense.
It was not about an "irky" tone, and it was not at all about a different opinion.
But maybe you misunderstood me.
Let me give you an exagerated example:

Lets say, you contribute here a lot, lets say you take a lot of time and try to really connect with people, to be compassionate with their sometimes critical states, lets say you take the time and effort to help many times (and I am sure one could say that about you).
now someone comes with a "different opinion" and tells you you´re an idiot, you only try to cause damage and chaos and your only contribution is seeding conflict among people.
Now for the example´s sake, lets say, people comment on a lot of things, share their differing opinions and make clear statements about all kinds of stuff. But not to the statement attacking and de-valuating you. Then all of a sudden everybody is "detached".

How would that feel?
What would you think about the community?
Would you think "oh, thats just a different opinion"?

Sorry, that would be a little too much of "detachment" for me!
Maybe a year ago, there was a thread, a very explosive one, I believe it was about women being suppresed by men if I remember correctly.
At least something along these lines.

There was a huge discussion about this very phenomenon. In that thread a lot of people spoke up to support and "defend" smc and Jade if I remember correctly, including myself.

Do you understand what I am trying to say?

It is not about starting a war or something. Not even about questioning unity´s opinion.
And its not about taking sides.

Stating a different opinion would have been enough of support!
If nobody does that, the temptation to conclude that people support this attcking opinion is a huge one.
Not sure if anybody can relate to that...
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rva_jeremy
04-27-2018, 01:03 PM,
RE: Wisdom Run Amok
Quote:Do you understand what I am trying to say?

I believe I do. I understand that the heart connection you seek is part of how you operate, and that when this connection is denied you by another, it hurts and limits the usefulness of the community for you. Do I more or less have that correct within acceptable parameters of distortion?

If I am correct, then I certainly sympathize. It sucks to feel like what you want to say can't be heard, only barked at as wrong. It is not easy to deal with that.

I wasn't trying to reprimand you to not feel the way you feel. I would also feel that way. Instead, I was trying to offer a different approach to "spiritual community" than the one you stated, which seems to center around support and affirmation. As Diana said, I don't see your vision as very accurate when describing spiritual communities I've known.

My feeling is that genuine community is not always just support and affirmation. Sometimes it's about conflict and disagreement. In fact it is through those rough times that we really learn about each other and gain the insight to truly open up. It is in conflict with people that I've grown closest to them, because no matter what else you want to say about conflict, it is honest--whereas a lot of times a mild, affirmative form of support can be half-hearted. Unity100, for all of his faults, cares enough to correct. That's not without value, even if the way he does it is inefficient (which is the point I was trying to make to him).

I think you're right that it is a temptation to see a certain ways of expressing oneself as hostile. I've definitely felt that way about Unity100 before, to be frank. It's tempting to throw that stuff right back in his face. But the key word you used is "temptation" because it seems like you recognize that this is a line of thought you shouldn't fall for. So in that sense, I was offering a different way to approach the situation that would allow you to not yield to the temptation, to instead, as the Buddhists say, "use the poison as medicine", to use the discomfort, the hurt, the bad feeling as a way to soften your heart even more and develop even more compassion.

The bottom line is that we're all different and we have to learn how to get along if we want to be on the same forum. It can't be about conforming to your ideal vision of a community anymore than it would be right to have all of us conform to unity100's "framework for standards" that he gestures at. My ideal vision is where we use our conflicts and misunderstandings as a way to practice Law of One philosophy in a simulated environment so we can do better in real life; it also doesn't get realized. Can we make something work in spite of all that?

Jeremy
It is not that love will tell you what to do.
It is that love will tell you how to do it with love.
Q'uo 3/19/06
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04-27-2018, 01:27 PM,
RE: Wisdom Run Amok
(04-27-2018, 12:27 PM)Diana Wrote:  We all, I think, have our hearts opened to different aspects of life on Earth.

I could say the same thing about every member who eats cruelly tortured and slaughtered animals (even baby animals). There is no one on this planet, I daresay, with a fully open heart.

I don't think a person could even stay here for one minute with a fully open heart; the amount of suffering on this planet, children starving and abused, lab animals experimented on in horrible ways, the unbelievable cruelty of meat animal factory farms, down to insects sprayed with pesticides (and I will guess that almost no one cares about the insects or feels their suffering, which proves my point that hearts are not fully open here) and the raping of the Earth with fracking and the like, the forest service doing what they call controlled burns, and on and on ad nauseam. I think this would destroy the last bit of will to live here, as it did the famous photographer who committed suicide after photographing the starving African child who collapsed and died just feet from the food wagon.

Beautiful post Diana, I'm commenting on this part because earlier I felt like I wanted to write about the essence of the heart because of how I feel it to be often misunderstood on this forum, yet I had not because I felt there was no opening for it in the thread for this. Now you've created this opening!

The reactions of rejection you attribute to a open heart lie in blockages, I think, and so are not what a fully open heart entails. Where you're right is that the process of opening the heart means you process things through the heart and this means to open yourself to all these things and process them within yourself, but if you remain stuck short of moving toward the core of what the heart is, that is unconditional love in a pure positive reaction, then that means you are blocked and not finding to express and radiate the heart.

A fully balanced and open heart feels unconditional love, and here there has to be an emphasis on the unconditional aspect, because that is what the heart is all about and so the path of the heart also. For oneself to reach one's heart implies the ability to have looked upon one's blockages and found the love they express, allowing the nodes to be released and the energy to move upward into a place of acceptance. This initial process with self allows the heart to become activated, once activated the heart allows a deeper connection with others, where others' energy becomes able to be consciously internalized and then the same process has to take place as if it were you, one has to find the ability to regard another's blockages and circumstances as love in unconditional acceptance of it. The challenge of this is how we are multifaceted, on aspects of yourself you find unconditional love while on others you don't, with a certain balance you are able to have an open heart, but it is not fully open on everything either hence creating blocked and more negative reactions. But I guess here we are moving into what's balanced in 4D, so beyond what the design of here leads to achieve (not that anyone needs to see themselves as limited by it either, it is well to strive to be unconditional in one's love, just that it makes you meet with your own resistance toward it).

Obviously it is not possible to really just jump straightforwardly to a fully balanced and open heart as it is not the purpose of being here, but were that to be so, I think the fully open heart would only see beauty in this world in a positive light, as otherwise it implies an inability to move the energy internally back to the heart.
In the end, is not everything on-going in this world never so much an absence of love as it is instead love expressed in blocked states? The heart is simply where love flows when unblocked, for without conditional blockages, only the unconditional love is left.

There is no self in the sense of separate individuality, yet there is one prevailing identity.
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04-27-2018, 02:28 PM, (This post was last modified: 04-27-2018, 02:50 PM by unity100.)
RE: Wisdom Run Amok
(04-26-2018, 07:14 PM)Louisabell Wrote:  In the spirit of blunt communication I wanted to add that I think it's highly patronising to peregrine to reduce his arguments down to him simply not being able to handle being told he is wrong. All I see on this forum is spirited debate, more so than the average. It is clearly a mischaractisation of what was actually said in order to bring the argument into a space that is irrefutable.

The post in which he lumped in many people, including me, into a bunch of people who 'do not speak of love' and swimming in a 'testosterone stew' is still in the first post of this thread.

After doing that, taking offense when being told wrong where he clearly was wrong about something in material, in plain text to boot, is contradictory and hypocritical.

Quote:I believe the complaint was more on the authority to which some here speak from about topics which have no authority. Interpretations on a text are subjective, there is no getting around that. And when there was a textual incongruency it was simply blown out of proportion

There is nothing interpretive in something that is textually wrong. Blue and Green are not found in negative spectrum - that is what the material we study says. Saying otherwise, is just wrong. The moment one steps out of the context of the material and then starts interpreting, it becomes something irrelevant and not discuss-sable in the context of Ra material.

We were discussing in the context of Ra Material.

(04-25-2018, 11:25 PM)unity100 Wrote:  Or perhaps the more likely scenario, instead of needing to change one's whole morality framework, is that someone will simply adjust their concept of what the blue ray actually is - something that can't be measured as it doesn't even exist in the physical.

Even if the person adjusts his/her concept of what the blue ray actually is, blue ray's nature and its effects wont change. So, blue cannot be made something pertaining to negative even by 'changing one's concept'. That's just 'interpreting' something to be which that thing actually isnt, anyway...

(04-26-2018, 07:16 PM)rva_jeremy Wrote:  
(04-26-2018, 05:37 PM)unity100 Wrote:  If the framework for standards in such a spiritual forum would be semitic religions, we would end up having no discussion at all.

I'd be interested in what standards comprise this framework you're citing. This could be a part of the constant misunderstandings between you and others.

Being prepared to have one's own biases and beliefs challenged, even proven wrong in an objective context - like in the current case of flat out mistaking blue ray as negative.

There were times in this forum in which even the context of 'god' couldnt be questioned. Going back to threads from 2010, one can find numerous people railing and accusing people of 'not having love' or 'respect' for questioning the idea of an all powerful, benevolent god that never falters. When you dared say 'logos can make mistakes', you would trigger a cascade of rants - much more stronger than what's written in the first post, and much more harsher than the offense which was taken later, though.

Not surprisingly, those people were adherents of various semitic religions to certain degrees. Christians, muslims...

Unquestionable holistic theology cannot be a basis for spiritual discussions. There is nothing to discuss when things cannot be questioned - it doesnt matter whether this unquestion-ability is enforced in the form of treating other people as heretics, or taking offense and enforcing it through political correctness.

Quote:Instead, the point is that some people undoubtedly do take offense -- and this has been 100% par for the course on Bring4th since I first joined way, way back when it first launched. We're stuck with you, and you with us, as long as we all want to use the same board. Why not try to get along?

We get along. This thread is the result of someone not getting along, and ranting against what he viewed as a 'no-no' inclination/bias, in a not so subtle call to change it. Its a major rant against a certain inclination/bias of a certain segment of people, denigrating them and then asking them to do things differently.

Im taking it personally, because it is.

I dont understand why i have to tell this again after telling it so many times - there is only one person who gave 'cellular configurations' example in the past month. That is me. And you will explicitly find it in the first post as a reference to those 'who speak not of love' and swimming in a 'testosterone stew'.

It is offensive. Its not that i am offended by it so that i am hurt or anything, but, it is utterly hypocritical to make such an attack on an entire group of people including me, and then take offense at being told that he was wrong when he was objectively wrong.

I wasnt the one who posted a thread about how this or that type of people were doing it wrong by having a particular bias, or by being emotional or by being like this or like that, and how that was actually negative and it was '(insert hormone X) stew' and whatnot. That's not getting along.

What is rather repetitive and tiring at this point is how another 'conciliation method' which i generally see in american popular discourse is being applied - you seem to be trying to find faults and valid points on both parties here, and trying to make us concede something in order to 'get along'. Or at least this is what it appears to be from here.

I wasnt the one who assaulted the bias of an entire group of people. At this point when you are reading this reply, please go back to 1st post of this thread and re-read it. That's what started everything. The poster of that post taking offense for being told he was incorrect much later in something in which he was flat out incorrect is just not sustainable or acceptable.

Quote: In the same way that you might be more careful asking a theological question to a devout muslim, why not apply the same thinking here? And we'll try not to take it so personally?

Leaving aside even a devout muslim would in general be able to handle and change his mind when he was quoted something from Quran which he clearly misquoted it and even built a massive rant based on that misconception against a group of people, neither muslim, nor christianity, nor judaism or any other organized religion cannot be a basis for standards in spiritual discussions - unless one doesnt want to study in depth. As i mentioned, once you bring in the idea of 'sensitive values that cant be offended', you eventually block discussion at some point irreversibly.

(04-27-2018, 02:41 AM)Agua Wrote:  Your posts in this thread however contain an energy of arrogance, offense and aggressiveness and this is what offends. And I dont believe there is any culture in this world where people welcome such aggressiveness!

There is no aggressiveness in my responses. The wordage and dialogue i used is no different than in any debate among two intellectuals that could be broadcast in a tv without any legal or moral issues.

Its your perception.

And:

Quote:I understand that you felt attacked or offended for some reason.
But even if that is so, I dont feel its justified to attack back.You could instead point this out, that could help to clarify potential misunderstandings.
If it shows that you in fact have been attacked, the attacker could become aware of it and apologize, for example.

Leaving aside there is no 'attack' back, despite 3-4 pages of discussion and pointing out, the original offensive post of this thread, the poster's attitude still stands. Including your other thread which just seems to be a follow-up on his thread.

Those were attacks. Your threads basically say 'you are doing wrong, what you are doing is evil' (since blue is depicted as negative, incorrectly), change yourselves!'. And among them, the original post of this thread has 'testosterone stew in it. The first time i saw something in this forum in 8 years, by the way.

Quote:still @unity
What I am in general trying to convey is NOT that you or anybody else is wrong!
I believe we all have the same goal, we want to grow, we all want (thats what i believe at least) experience all the "cool" things Ra and many other sources speak of.
I am speaking from a perspective where I actually experienced many of these things and regularly do.
And from that perspective I am trying to offer methods, approaches and stuff that are meant To HELP people to actually EXPERIENCE these "things" themselves, as opposed to forever speculating.
Because what I found is, if I actually experience these "things" its absolutely different, and i really mean absolute, from everything I imagined it to be.
So, maybe you could be open to the possibility that actually i am trying to reach out to you and offer support, as flawed as my offerring might be.

If 'no one is wrong', then there was no need for two threads which you and peregrine opened, about how some people who have a 'wisdom bias' were wrong and they should change themselves. And all that discussion was unnecessary. Opening those threads, and making that actual assault on an entire group's bias was, then, wrong from the start, according to what you just said.

Quote:Is it just a random anonymous internet forum?
Or is it a spiritual community?
Is this a place where we share openly and deeply, or just like any other forum a place of ultimately limited relevance to our personal lives?

At this point it feels to me as if you were expecting a place where your biases would be agreed and shared without questioning and people would be supportive of whatever you say...

Quote:In this thread I have been accused of trolling this forum.
It has been said, I just wanted to create conflict among members and so on.
(If thats unity's perceiption of my posts, so be it)
But what dissapointed me was the reaction of other participants:
No reaction (except for sprout, thank you sprout).
If have really put a lot of effort and love in trying to help this community as well as many times supporting members in emergency states.
You might notice, that (except for sprout) NO ONE spoke to my defense! Instead, the discussion just went on, as if nothing had happened.
Same thing a few posts later!
That either indicates that everybody shares this opinion, which would be a huge slap in my face, or that no one has the courage, the "balls", to get involved and say something.

And I have to clearly state, that i am personally very dissapointed Sad

They possibly did not react to my suspicion because my suspicion was my own personal opinion totally based on my own experience and my personal feeling about you and what you were doing.

I still think and feel the same way. In fact, after this particular post of yours, i am even more suspicious - because after peregrine and i just let the matter go, you just jumped in and now you are 'following up' and keeping the issue which was practically among us two, going. Especially when you switched to a vague perceived 'aggressiveness and offense' rhetoric in your post when the concept of 'telling someone that s/he is wrong is not an offense in other cultures' argument was raised.

See, these are personal opinions and feelings, openly shared, without needing a common framework to discuss or think about.

And per what you just said above, i am right - because no one is wrong...

Quote:That being said, I believe that our relationships, every relationship, does help much more in evolving than tons of abstract discussions!

That's your opinion. I think differently. You may have your opinion since everyone is entitled to theirs. I may have my opinion similarly.

However you may not try to pressure me to change my opinion, just like i am not pressuring you to change yours.

Quote:One more thing:
If I want to hear Ra speaking, I read the Ra material, no need to come here.
I sometimes feel that Ra quotes are being instrumentalized, for what ever reason.
Maybe to support your own view. But then, Ra stated multiple times, that they dont want to be an authority.
Make yourself the authority, your inner source, trust in yourself, dare to make mistakes, to be wrong.
I would like to hear YOUR truth.
There is nothing to be found outside of you, it is all inside of you!
And it is really hard to find yourself outside of you Wink
I would like to hear of YOUR genuine experiences and learn from them, much more than Ra quotes.

This is like cherrypicking, quoting Ra to support an opinion and prove something right by Ra's authority, while omitting the crucial Ra statement that they dont want to be an authority Wink

Ra has no problem being the author and authority of their own material.

https://www.lawofone.info/results.php?q=authority

They have repeatedly corrected their material and corrected Don as necessary. They never, at any point, left things to misinterpretation and not correct something wrong which Don said.

Ra didnt want to be elevated by a group which respected and revered them greatly, and they stated it clearly so.

Aside from that, what you say basically means 'Mind not what is written in this material you want to study, but mind what is said - especially what i feel about it'.

Thats not productive or fruitful.

(04-27-2018, 12:44 PM)Agua Wrote:  now someone comes with a "different opinion" and tells you you´re an idiot, you only try to cause damage and chaos and your only contribution is seeding conflict among people.
Now for the example´s sake, lets say, people comment on a lot of things, share their differing opinions and make clear statements about all kinds of stuff. But not to the statement attacking and de-valuating you.

Except that's what you did. Your particular thread criticizes and demeans a whole bunch of people, calling them less spiritual, peregrine's this thread basically calls it a testosterone stew.

Why did you, yourself, do something which you are criticizing, yourself...

....

As for being an 'idiot', if someone being mistaken about something feels that s/he was offended and called an 'idiot' after someone references something objectively disproves it, then the problem is not with the information or its bringer, but the person's self-esteem. People in science, academia, even business world do not get as such 'offended' by anyone who corrects them for something objective, instead they thank him/her. Maybe there is something for you to learn in that behavior.

Of course, it goes without saying that someone who would get offended by getting corrected on something on which he clearly built an entire demeaning rant and rail against a whole segment of people, should let go of either one: Getting offended by being corrected or building personal attacks against people based on incorrect knowledge.

..........

This tangent has taken long enough. I see no need to continue this tangent any further. Repetition is not productive.

The conclusion i see is:

Everyone's personal biases are their own. Everyone has a right to keep and follow their own biases and his/her spiritual path. Follow whomever you want to discuss, discuss with whichever person whose style and bias is compatible with yours.

That's what i was doing, without criticizing or ranting against anyone with a different bias or perspective, and i recommend that anyone who is disturbed by other people's biases to try doing the same. If someone or his/her bias is too bothering for you, just put the person on ignore and solve that. For neither s/he has to agree to your bias, nor you have to agree to his or hers.

Im interested in discussing and discovering the mysteries of existence and infinity. I welcome anyone who intends to do the same with open arms. If that's not your thing, i respect that. You have to respect others' calling and biases as yours was respected.

......

From this point on for this thread, I will read and reply to any post discussing wisdom or relevant topics. Any personal stuff, i will just skip.

Have a nice evening.
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04-27-2018, 04:23 PM, (This post was last modified: 04-27-2018, 04:25 PM by rva_jeremy.)
RE: Wisdom Run Amok
(04-25-2018, 11:25 PM)unity100 Wrote:  
(04-26-2018, 07:16 PM)rva_jeremy Wrote:  I'd be interested in what standards comprise this framework you're citing. This could be a part of the constant misunderstandings between you and others.

Being prepared to have one's own biases and beliefs challenged, even proven wrong in an objective context - like in the current case of flat out mistaking blue ray as negative.

OK, I get where you're coming from, because I agree with you. I personally would much prefer to enter a forum where I could say whatever I want without having to worry about whether it hurt others' feelings.

Unfortunately, I don't see any way to get to that forum from here. This forum with some more sensitive people, along with all the normal flaws we all have, is the forum we're stuck with. The rules are not written to favor our preferred way of running things.

So I'm curious: what should we do?

(04-25-2018, 11:25 PM)unity100 Wrote:  Leaving aside even a devout muslim would in general be able to handle and change his mind when he was quoted something from Quran which he clearly misquoted it and even built a massive rant based on that misconception against a group of people, neither muslim, nor christianity, nor judaism or any other organized religion cannot be a basis for standards in spiritual discussions - unless one doesnt want to study in depth. As i mentioned, once you bring in the idea of 'sensitive values that cant be offended', you eventually block discussion at some point irreversibly.

Well, just one quick thing: you're making my analogy do a lot of work there. The point of my analogy was not to compare the Law of One to specifically semitic religions -- what I said would apply just as easily to Hinduism or Shinto or Jainism or whatever. You might disagree with me, but I just want to make sure you're disagreeing with what I actually think, which is that people attached to spiritual beliefs of any kind are known to take criticism of those beliefs personally. Not universally, but enough.

But furthermore, I disagree that asking for the use of a more conciliatory, less harsh tone blocks discussion in and of itself. A proper tone actually makes it possible for more than a single party to engage the discussion, so it's a back and forth instead of just one party talking at another. There's an argument to be made that your tone is causing you to not actually communicate your points effectively.

P.S. Please don't feel like I require a response if you're done with this line of discussion, Unity100.

Jeremy
It is not that love will tell you what to do.
It is that love will tell you how to do it with love.
Q'uo 3/19/06
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04-27-2018, 05:01 PM, (This post was last modified: 04-27-2018, 05:04 PM by unity100.)
RE: Wisdom Run Amok
(04-27-2018, 04:23 PM)rva_jeremy Wrote:  
(04-25-2018, 11:25 PM)unity100 Wrote:  
(04-26-2018, 07:16 PM)rva_jeremy Wrote:  I'd be interested in what standards comprise this framework you're citing. This could be a part of the constant misunderstandings between you and others.

Being prepared to have one's own biases and beliefs challenged, even proven wrong in an objective context - like in the current case of flat out mistaking blue ray as negative.

OK, I get where you're coming from, because I agree with you. I personally would much prefer to enter a forum where I could say whatever I want without having to worry about whether it hurt others' feelings.

Unfortunately, I don't see any way to get to that forum from here. This forum with some more sensitive people, along with all the normal flaws we all have, is the forum we're stuck with. The rules are not written to favor our preferred way of running things.

So I'm curious: what should we do?

I already mentioned the reasonable way of approaching this: The moment people can just concentrate on whomever person or whatever style that call to them, problem gets solved. That's what people do in real life as well, that's what everyone will do after graduating to higher vibrations as well: Not everyone does the same thing or offers the same service - just checking descriptions of confederation in Ra material will attest to that. Everyone offers what service they have to offer to anyone interested.

In such an environment problems only arise when some people want other people to think and behave like themselves. Like these two threads actually do - 'dont think or feel like you do, do it like me'.

And when the target does not validate that necessity or demand, there would be problems. And if people start doing such validation by rule or collective choice, then there would be much bigger problems very swiftly because it will create an environment where every other person will expect adherence to his/her biases and validation - leading to immense conflict.

The only way to coexistence is acceptance. Its the basis of green ray, termed love in our modern world. The moment that acceptance comes with conditions of adherence to particular demands, it is no longer acceptance.

Quote:You might disagree with me, but I just want to make sure you're disagreeing with what I actually think, which is that people attached to spiritual beliefs of any kind are known to take criticism of those beliefs personally.

That is the same - the moment you establish that personal/social biases can be expected to be adhered to, a lot of people will expect that. From those who believe organized religions to those who have any set of bias in spiritualism. There is no fulfilling that need. Because there isnt tolerance in that. There will be conflict because eventually someone's bias will conflict with some other's.

It was like that ~8 years ago. You couldnt discuss anything which could be sensitive to anyone in depth, because eventually someone would get offended. It was a landmine of avoiding topics to talk to avoid someone getting worked up, and a constant pressure to appease this or other person's bias. All you could say safely was that everything was ok, future was going to be fantastic and very soon and things like that. Because the majority was waiting for ascension/2012/mayan new age. Even in those topics, when you attempted to discuss in detail eventually someone would get worked up because what this or that person would say would not match the personal expectations that someone had.

If you told that harvest/transition/new age would happen at 2011-2012, it would upset some people. If totally to the contrary, you told that it would be a continuous, unfolding event, this time those who waited a major event in 2012 would get upset and the tone of the discussion would change.

There was no way of not offending someone and appeasing everyone. There just couldnt be. Everyone's expectations were different then, everyone's expectations are different today. And it will be so in the future

Whatever that can be expected and requested can be maturity and respect for other people's ideas and perspectives. This naturally would require refraining posting rant/attack threads which target other people.

That said, the current state of this forum, the dialogue, the ideas and insight in the posts, intricate questions that are asked, inspiration that can be gleamed - are lightyears ahead of what was here back in 2010.

Quote:P.S. Please don't feel like I require a response if you're done with this line of discussion, Unity100.

I replied to this since it involved a social angle. But i will avoid that angle from now on as well. It is just expected that people respect each others' differences in perspective, style and bias in a civilized social setting. It shouldnt require long discussions or advocacy..
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04-27-2018, 05:38 PM,
RE: Wisdom Run Amok
Quote:I already mentioned the reasonable way of approaching this: The moment people can just concentrate on whomever person or whatever style that call to them, problem gets solved.

I didn't think you were seriously suggesting that it's a reasonable solution for everybody on this forum to change to suit your style. What am I missing?

Jeremy
It is not that love will tell you what to do.
It is that love will tell you how to do it with love.
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04-27-2018, 05:48 PM, (This post was last modified: 04-27-2018, 05:48 PM by unity100.)
RE: Wisdom Run Amok
(04-27-2018, 05:38 PM)rva_jeremy Wrote:  
Quote:I already mentioned the reasonable way of approaching this: The moment people can just concentrate on whomever person or whatever style that call to them, problem gets solved.

I didn't think you were seriously suggesting that it's a reasonable solution for everybody on this forum to change to suit your style. What am I missing?

I didnt say that others should suit my style. It was the original posters of this thread and that other thread which asked other people to suit their style, ie 'dont be scientific'.

If by 'your style' you mean 'just talking with people whom you want to talk with and not issuing demands to people whose style doesnt suit you', thats exactly what i meant. However that is not 'my style'. Its civility.

The opposite of that is demanding that people to conform to certain standards which will suit other people. For example, per these two threads in question, me and anyone who talks 'scientifically' are expected to be less 'scientific' and be more 'emotional'. Therefore, if we go about doing the opposite of what you mistook as 'my style', i and any other person who talks 'technically' about 'things' will have to be 'less scientific'. And the moment someone proposes that is the moment i could rightfully demand other people to be 'less emotional' - since it goes both ways.

Ah, also, recently a final demand which practically tells that 'dont quote the material' was issued in the last few posts.

I think its pretty clear that expecting people to conform to other people's biases wont work...

This leaves being tolerant, pluralist and taking from the basket what you would like to take, and leaving what you would not like, in peace for whomever would be interested in that.
can reach me@ unity100-gmail
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04-27-2018, 08:34 PM, (This post was last modified: 04-27-2018, 08:34 PM by rva_jeremy.)
RE: Wisdom Run Amok
Quote:If by 'your style' you mean 'just talking with people whom you want to talk with and not issuing demands to people whose style doesnt suit you', thats exactly what i meant.

I'm not saying I support every criticism leveled at you. I don't agree with others making blanket demands on you.

I'm simply saying I think you could communicate more effectively than you are.

Jeremy
It is not that love will tell you what to do.
It is that love will tell you how to do it with love.
Q'uo 3/19/06
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Highrculling
04-28-2018, 02:44 AM,
RE: Wisdom Run Amok
@Diana

Thank you fot your post! I understand what you are saying and agree to a degree.
Having no expectations surely is a desirable goal.
On the other hand i find it important to acknowlegde one's needs, even if they might not be met in a situation or relationship. And I am just not without needs and stuff.
But I guess you understand what i mean, especially since we pm'ed a lot.
So thank you Smile

@flofrog
i want to thank you for your appreciation!

@jeremy
Thank you, jeremy, you're taking a lot of effort and your good intentions are clearly visible!
So thank you for that!

@unity
Not offending, just asking, do you think its possible that you do not really undstand what i am trying to say and offer you?
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04-28-2018, 07:40 AM,
RE: Wisdom Run Amok
The thing with expectations is that you project a distortion or blockage upon others. Your own well being becomes dependant of the response you get when the basic usefulness of others is to offer a diversity in response. So, you deny to others what they are for your own emotional node never facing how it is rooted in you and so forcing others to upset you, by merely being unlike you expect them to be and instead simply what they are, to the extent you are forced to turn inward and face your own emotion as it relates to yourself without projecting it.

In my experience, the stronger your expectations are and the stronger you will attract catalyst to assist you in liberating your basic nature that is free potential from them. To be part of any community with subjective expectations can be little more than unhealthy as you have strong points to disapprove and dislike what positive love is about accepting and not rejecting. As a forum focused on the positive path, what I would expect from the place is to act as a reminder that whatever you disapprove of in another is about what in you makes you fall short from finding to be positive in how you feel.

There is no self in the sense of separate individuality, yet there is one prevailing identity.
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Highrculling
04-28-2018, 12:47 PM,
RE: Wisdom Run Amok
(04-28-2018, 02:44 AM)Agua Wrote:  @Diana

Thank you fot your post! I understand what you are saying and agree to a degree.
Having no expectations surely is a desirable goal.
On the other hand i find it important to acknowlegde one's needs, even if they might not be met in a situation or relationship. And I am just not without needs and stuff.
But I guess you understand what i mean, especially since we pm'ed a lot.
So thank you Smile

I understand. And, I think, one of the problems of a forum such as this, is that there is a thin line between what we see ourselves as/what we want to be and who we really are and act like at a given moment in time. It's certainly true of me. While I am mostly detached/accepting, there are times when I get hit in the face with something that hurts, and I realize I had expectations, and those expectations were based on some need which likely was a trigger.

My personal goal is to accept all—with the correct intentions. But I still wrestle with that. I suppose it's because the suffering of others (all life forms, not just humans) is so difficult to handle. I can detach and have no expectations, but I can't reach acceptance in a way that feels loving all around, which brings me to: 

(04-27-2018, 01:27 PM)Elros Wrote:  ...The challenge of this is how we are multifaceted, on aspects of yourself you find unconditional love while on others you don't, with a certain balance you are able to have an open heart, but it is not fully open on everything either hence creating blocked and more negative reactions. But I guess here we are moving into what's balanced in 4D, so beyond what the design of here leads to achieve (not that anyone needs to see themselves as limited by it either, it is well to strive to be unconditional in one's love, just that it makes you meet with your own resistance toward it).


Obviously it is not possible to really just jump straightforwardly to a fully balanced and open heart as it is not the purpose of being here, but were that to be so, I think the fully open heart would only see beauty in this world in a positive light, as otherwise it implies an inability to move the energy internally back to the heart.
In the end, is not everything on-going in this world never so much an absence of love as it is instead love expressed in blocked states? The heart is simply where love flows when unblocked, for without conditional blockages, only the unconditional love is left.

I know exactly what you are talking about. I both get it and a part of me rejects it at the same time. I can see the beauty in everything, if I am in the right perspective. But if I am looking directly at the suffering of another being (human, animal, all life forms), it can break down. 

I have always done what Ra suggests (paraphrasing): to feed a starving person if one comes upon a starving person. And doing so feels balanced (for lack of a better word) to me. When I give cash to a homeless person on a corner, for instance, it feels detached, accepting, and nonjudgmental, while at the same time, I feel a connection to the person and sharing what I have seems incidental or, just what I do because I can. Jeez, it's hard to explain. I don't put undue importance on it, and yet, I feel it has all the importance in the world. I think because it's not ego-driven.

The most challenging thing for me here is humanity. At this juncture in evolution, humans are like selfish teenagers without frontal lobes. It is very difficult to watch the drama unfold with humans at the helm. Because they don't only hurt and destroy themselves, they do it to all life here. Just the example of wars illustrates that. When napalm is used, bombs dropped, etc., we weep for fallen humans, but who weeps for the trees and plants and animals maimed or killed or poisoned and left suffering? And here is where I lose the perspective of the beauty of it all. Human folly affecting more than just humanity.

One thing that seems to help put things in perspective is to live one's life to potential, and by that I mean to become authentically one's self. This goes back to the idea of "adding your light to the sum of light." That in becoming self—stripping away societal overlays, protective masks, and stepping outside the human drama—one realizes a greater existence and the drama here reveals itself. It's like floating to the top of an enormous bowl of soup because you've lightened your load, and crawling up onto the lip of the bowl where the whole thing can be viewed. 
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04-28-2018, 01:03 PM, (This post was last modified: 04-28-2018, 01:52 PM by xise.)
RE: Wisdom Run Amok
'Loving' conflict (regarding issues for discussion) is not incompatible with love.

True harmony does not result from refusing to discuss or avoid materials with others who are also attempting a similar path, but it comes from being able to evolve to a point where disagreement is no longer creates disharmony, but rather allows us to appreciate the one Creator and its infinite perspectives and experiences in all its glory (assuming it's not beating a dead horse topic, and of course assuming you're not discussing someone who has a fundamentally different polarity choice who may not be interested in genuine discussion).

I say because of my own experience with myself and the great value forum catalyst has had for me in my personal journey. True harmony within oneself involves going to the deepest dark places of your own subconscious, and engaging with that matter, and learning to see emotional charges as things indicators of where one can shift in their perspectives to find love in in places that previously had an uncomfortable emotional charge. And I think this applies to discussion of issues with others.

Of course, it's very easy to engage in disagreement with others and fall back into the yellow ray I'm right he's wrong, I'm reasonable he's crazy, I'm doing the right thing they're doing the wrong thing, Us versus Them mentality - after all, the 3D societal consciousness on Earth is so strong that's it overlays Earth's natural 4D field - so it makes sense that the societal consciousness can affect even those of us who may be more 4D or wandering in vibration. I know I fall into this energy sometimes. But I think it's better to understand and evolve past the emotional turbulence disagreement brings, and that can be only done with deep self-work and true engagement with such disagreement. Of course, unless both parties are in interested in this sort of evolution, and are in agreement in willingness to engage, I think it is to be respected if one wishes to stop engaging in the discussion.

-----

I am not saying that everyone should go and keep engaging when they don't want to. I don't want people's behavior to change overnight - that's following a ruleset as opposed to organic evolution. 

All I am saying that perhaps conflict is not always a bad thing, but can be done with love, and is but another catalyst that may be distilled and engaged with, rather than avoided. Certainly, though, such conflict-based catalyst should not be forced upon anyone. But I am hoping by explaining my perspective that both parties involved in a future forum discussion conflict, can explore the idea that it is useful to explore conflict lovingly, rather than just say let's stop talking about it.  I feel an often (and mistaken) New Age-type belief is to not engage and avoid disharmony. I believe such a practice encourages suppression over integration, and separation over unity. Overall, I think this misses the mark because I think those of us who on the positive path you engage unconditionally with everything - including disharmony, if that disharmony arises naturally from two different viewpoints. Of course, this is my perspective and I'm sure others will disagree  Smile

STO is about universal love and therefore includes the self. All is acceptable. All. Every single thing. 
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04-28-2018, 03:04 PM, (This post was last modified: 04-28-2018, 03:09 PM by peregrine.)
RE: Wisdom Run Amok
Thanks, xise, for bringing the discussion back on course.  The matter at hand, in my view, is as you state, harmony......and what makes harmony so challenging.  

The post which opens this thread could have been better written, I see now after all this discussion, but the main point was that too much of an unwelcoming tone chases away potential interlocutors who would add much value to the discussions.  Some of us have very thick hides, and that's fine, but, in my opinion, it would be more appropriate if the guests of these forums ("guests" defined here as all users not paying for web hosting) were more gracious towards and accepting of others.  

Okay, this is the internet and the above sounds like something you have to die and go to heaven to experience, but in the context of the Ra & Q'uo channelings it seems like a reasonable aspiration to moi.  I'm not seeking perfection, just to turn down the cold and turn up the warmth a modest amount. (But maybe that's too much to ask or too complicated?)

So, how to get there?  That's the question. 

I'll just offer this.  Perhaps it requires some kind of periodic communal recommitting to harmony and good will?  Is that even a good idea?  Is that a shared value?  Would it be a service to the planet to do so?  (I think so.)  Is it important enough to ask--not demand--some level of commitment to it?  Could that be reasonably defined?  Does anybody care?

And I have to add, this is not coming from world's warmest guy.  Again, the desire here is for harmony/balance to better serve in this time of tumult and transition.

 
May all beings be happy.
May all beings find peace.
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04-28-2018, 03:32 PM,
RE: Wisdom Run Amok
This passage was posted on another thread and it got me thinking about the title of this thread.

Ra Dialogue Wrote:42.7 ▶ Questioner: I would like to try to make an analogy for this in third density. Many entities here feel great compassion toward relieving the physical problems of third-density other-selves by administering to them in many ways, bringing them food if there is hunger as there is in the African nations now, bringing them medicine if they believe they require administering to them medically, and being selfless in all of these services to a very great extent.

This is creating a polarization or a vibration that is in harmony with green ray or fourth density. However, it is not balanced with the understanding of fifth density that these entities are experiencing catalyst and a more balanced administration to their needs would be to provide them with the learning necessary to reach the state of awareness of fourth density than it would be to administer to their physical needs at this time. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is incorrect. To a mind/body/spirit complex which is starving, the appropriate response is the feeding of the body. You may extrapolate from this.

On the other hand, however, you are correct in your assumption that the green ray response is not as refined as that which has been imbued with wisdom. This wisdom enables the entity to appreciate its contributions to the planetary consciousness by the quality of its being, without regard to activity or behavior which expects results upon visible planes.

I wonder it would be fair (or "wise") to infer from this that, if wisdom's role is to refine love, then wisdom absent prevenient love is of lesser value?  I don't expect there's a definitive proof or disproof this, but it strikes me as a curious postulate.

 
May all beings be happy.
May all beings find peace.
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04-28-2018, 10:04 PM,
RE: Wisdom Run Amok
I think Peregrine you are right on target, which is that wisdom and love are so linked at some point. at least seems to me, whence Ra speaking so much on balance.
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04-29-2018, 12:55 AM,
RE: Wisdom Run Amok
I love you guys.
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04-29-2018, 11:20 PM,
RE: Wisdom Run Amok
(04-29-2018, 12:55 AM)Billy Wrote:  I love you guys.

Love says "I don't negotiate with terrorists."*straight face*
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