How does Infinity simply 'become' aware.

[caycegal]

These are interesting and complex posts.

I'll go with this, from memory, I believe: God or "All-That-Is" begins in mystery and ends in mystery.

[Shin'Ar]

Now turn on the light bulb and there you have the Love, Infinite Energy (the bulb) and the ensuing Creation (the light: all the forms and shapes and patterns and delineations and objects that "stuff" the room).

ah, thank you for this Siren. I think I better understand what you are saying now.

You seem to be equating the Light to what I would refer to as The All, and the Flower of Life.

But I have two problems with that speculation.

First is that you also seem to confusing matter with its source.

And secondly as you acknowledge Light to be the result of The Spirit/Source acting, this does not agree with the many ancient teachings that clearly refer to the Spirit as Light.

I prefer to think of the Spirit as Light, and it's being as creation/matter.

This is how all of the ancient archetypes refer to it. And this is the teaching of Serpent Wisdom.

[Siren]

First is that you also seem to confusing matter with its source.

It appears that this arises from you perceiving light as being the source, when the source of light is Love; and seeing "light" as distinct from "matter," when in fact they are the same (in different states, qualities, frequencies). This is why Ra states light is the only material (matter=materia=material).

I am congruent with Ra.

(The brackets in the following quotes to were added)

Our understanding is that there is no other material except light.

The concept of light is instrumental in grasping this great leap of thought as this vibrational distortion [i.e. light] of infinity is the building block of that which is known as matter

The first distortion, free will, finds focus [i.e Love]. This is the second distortion known to you as Logos, the Creative Principle or Love. This intelligent energy [i.e Love] thus creates a distortion known as Light.

Questioner: I will make a statement that I have extracted from the physics of Dewey Larson which may or may not be close to what we are trying to explain. Larson says that all is motion [i.e Love] which we can take as vibration [i.e Love], and that vibration is pure vibration [i.e Love] and is not physical [i.e Light] in any way or in any form or density [i.e Light], and the first product of that vibration [i.e Love] is what we call the photon or particle of light. I am trying to make an analogy between this physical solution and the concept of love and light. Is this close to the concept of Love creating light?

Ra: I am Ra. You are correct.

Questioner: Then this vibration [i.e Love] which is, for lack of better understanding, pure motion [i.e Love]; it is pure love; it is nothing that is yet condensed, shall we say, to form any type of density of illusion [i.e light]. This Love then creates by this process of vibration a photon, as we call it, which is the basic particle of light. This photon [i.e light] then, by added vibrations and rotation, further condenses into particles of the densities we experience. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is correct

[Shin'Ar]

I would agree to the extent that creation is the extension of the True Light, so naturally all that exists is of the Light.

But I cannot follow your line of speculation with regard to love being 'pure motion', because to have motion there must be two forces opposing each other with equal force. And before anything was even created what do you speculate existed fro motion to take place?

In my speculation that is accounted for.

[Siren]

And before anything was even created what do you speculate existed fro motion to take place?

Infinite potential.

[AnthroHeart]

What I call "blackness" (for lack of a better term) is not the darknes most people seem to speak of. This blackness, or esoteric obscurity, is the quiescence of the void/plenum when neither Love nor light were yet.

Exactly what I was thinking. Blackness is the plenum, the potential. It is not darkness, which wasn't created till Light was created. I was just about to respond to this thread when I saw you mention the plenum. Perfect example.

[Shin'Ar]

First of All Siren,

I want to thank you deeply for challenging these thoughts along with me, with such depth and congruity. It is via such speculation and discussion that deep learning and further understanding can be had. I am always seeking to find thoughts that challenge my own which may enhance my path into further understanding.

Becoming locked into a belief system as though it is no longer speculation, or for the purpose of wanting to avoid being wrong about a matter is the end of learning and I have sworn to be ever cautious of that trap.

Now back to our discussion, as you seem as intrigued as I about the topic, shall we proceed.



In response to my suggestion that you and I are perceiving Light in different ways you said,

“It appears that this arises from you perceiving light as being the source, when the source of light is Love; and seeing "light" as distinct from "matter," when in fact they are the same (in different states, qualities, frequencies). This is why Ra states light is the only material (matter=materia=material).”

To this I acknowledge that I see Light as being two aspects of the One, just as darkness and light are two aspects of the One.

It seems that we only really differ in that you acknowledge Intelligent Energy as being love, which creates light/matter.

Whereas I acknowledge Light as the Source/Infinity from which further light spawns and becomes creation. And so it is this aspect of your definition of Love which becomes the variable that differentiates our thought processes.


This quote we seem to agree on,

Quote:
The concept of light is instrumental in grasping this great leap of thought as this vibrational distortion [i.e. light] of infinity is the building block of that which is known as matter"



All thought is vibration/light/sound/ becoming material as it condenses. We agree on this. It is the Source, the aspect of love, and the concept of the void from which it spawns where our semantics part ways.

Okay let us agree that when we speak of distortion we are speaking of the first vibration or motion or energy of the Source. As such we cannot suggest that the Source is the first distortion, as it is the Source of the first distortion.


Quote:
The first distortion, free will, finds focus [i.e Love]. This is the second distortion known to you as Logos, the Creative Principle or Love. This intelligent energy [i.e Love] thus creates a distortion known as Light.


Here Ra says that the first distortion is basically the ‘will’ to love, and that ‘love’ itself is the second distortion. Love being intelligent energy creates ‘Light’, which by succession will be the third distortion.


First Distortion - Will/Being
Second - Love/intelligent energy
Third - Light/matter


I am saying that Infinity is Light, which begets Intelligent Energy, which is the force of extending The Light, via the Process of Being/Intelligent Energy, which creates vibration/light/matter, which is simply the extension of The One/Light/Source/Infinity into existence as an energy/thought/vibration.

I do not think we differ here except in the order of distortion, which complicates the ability to agree on the concept of the plenum, or the Mystery of what existed in the instance of this all taking place.

And in my speculation Intelligent Energy is not a distortion of The One because it is the One in duality. It is the thought process which establishes the will to begin the first distortion which is darkness blended with light, an extension of that divine duality. And in fact an extension of Infinity/Light in its dual nature of being/existing/awareness/thinking/building intelligence.


First - Light/Thought/fields of consciousness/matter/The All


Do you see what has happened here Siren?

In your attempt to break down the process of being into various distortions, you have inadvertently separated that which is One, and left out the duality of Its nature, in essence separating the Goddess/Intelligent Energy from The Spirit/Light as though It’s intelligence is somehow a distortion of It.

If you look at my premise there is only One. And this is the Law of One.

That all that proceeds from The One is One. The dual nature of it cannot be used to suggest it is not one. The dual nature of The One is simply the manifestation of Its Intelligence proceeding; the Process of Being/Intelligent Energy/The Goddess. The Serpent spiraling out of the vortex to become The All.

Quote:
Questioner: I will make a statement that I have extracted from the physics of Dewey Larson which may or may not be close to what we are trying to explain. Larson says that all is motion [i.e Love] which we can take as vibration [i.e Love], and that vibration is pure vibration [i.e Love] and is not physical in any way or in any form or density [i.e Light], and the first product of that vibration [i.e Love] is what we call the photon or particle of light. I am trying to make an analogy between this physical solution and the concept of love and light. Is this close to the concept of Love creating light?

Ra: I am Ra. You are correct.


Here seems to be the glitch, in that the other quotes suggest that love and intelligent energy, being the first distortion, are one and the same, from which comes matter/light.

However, I suggest that intelligent energy cannot be separated from The One as a distortion of it, but is simply the result of It becoming aware and reacting to the will to exist. In that awareness of existence duality results. It is not a distortion, nor a separation, in my thinking. It is simply the ‘nature’ of The One Being/Existing. This is not vibration or First Thought. It is the result of awareness/consciousness.

The first distortion of that Consciousness is the next step, the actual First Thought or the Process of Being.


So again let’s compare our thoughts in order of semantic expression and not distortions:

Siren/Ra -

1. Void/Plenum
2. Will/Being
3. Love/Intelligent Energy
4. Light/matter
5. Infinity/Mystery



Shin’Ar/Serpent Masters


1. Infinity/Light
2. Thought/Being/fields of consciousness/vibration/ creation

Do you see? In my order there is now two; duality.

In your order of succession the void is some sort of infinite nothingness/blackness where some Free Will of intelligent nature spawned and by love created all to follow.

In my order of succession the void is Infinite Light, The Source from which all spawned.

Again I point out that,

‘In your attempt to break down the process of being into various distortions, you have inadvertently separated that which is One, and ignored the duality of Its nature, in essence separating the Goddess/Intelligent Energy from The Spirit/Light as though It’s intelligence is somehow a distortion of It.'


The Serpent Masters would suggest here that it is this confusion of the Goddess that confuses your description of the Origin. Or in other words, it is by separating Intelligent Energy as a distortion of The One, rather than the consequence of Its Being, that you create the dilemma of love and light.

The Ancients teach us that love and hate, light and darkness, spirit and matter are all One process of Being. One thought Process vibrating concentrically and condensing as it moves further from Its Source, Infinite Light, and then becoming matter. This is The Serpent Goddess spiraling out from the Source as intelligent Energy. All is One created from Duality! The Law of One.

As you and the Ra Material attempt to define this process by breaking it down into distortions a misinterpretation of that definition results in that you separate intelligent energy from Its Source, and define that separation as love, and in such thinking the true Infinite Light is replaced with the darkness of incomprehension and ever- fictional speculation, as is all speculation, including my own.

The void is not the paradox of ‘nothingness’ where ‘something’ began.

The Void is the ongoing, ever-continuing Mystery of ‘Infinite Light extending infinitely’ into Infinite Mystery.
One Infinite Process from Mystery into Mystery.
One Consciousness encompassing All, The Source of The All, which manifests the dual nature of Its source in continuous reflection and vibration.

We are made in the image of God. We are One with God. But we are NOT God, rather we are the Process of God ‘being’.

We are Not The Source, rather we are the actual process proceeding.
Thought manifesting into further thought.

Soundwave manifesting concentrically.

Vibration altering into lower frequency as it moves away from Its Source.

We are The Process of Being.

What we assume as our identity of individuality is a result of that reflection and our awareness of it because it is designed into our very vibration and memory stored in the One Consciousness.

But our assumptions do not create a true individual identity. Our assumptions are simply extensions/vibrations of that original Thought Process attempting to comprehend Its existence. We, or that which we ‘think’ we are, or shall we say what IT thinks It is, is the continuing process/extension/being of The One Consciousness. Fragments of it continuing and proceeding into Being.

This is my understanding and comprehension of what a wise follower of Jesus declared as ‘The True Light which has come into the world.’
And this is my understanding of The Ancient Serpent Wisdom which also speaks of The Spirit as Light.

Let us always remember the Sacred Flame that dances within the form of every creation.
For that infinitely burning flame is what we truly are. A Process of expanding Light. This is The One, and this is The All.

And Ra is not in disagreement with this :

Quote:
Questioner: Then this vibration …. which is, for lack of better understanding, “ pure motion”…..
Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is correct


All is PURE MOTION! Process of Being!

And that includes any thought/vibration we experience, as The One, of our being an individual of temporary immobility. It will not last or remain, except as memory. And the process will continue into Mystery.

[Peregrinus]

One may speculate whatever one wants, but that does not make it so. Atheists speculate there is no Creator, yet does that make it so? If I speculate the sky is green and the oceans indigo, does that make it so? Of course not.

Based upon The Bible (Genesis), Ra,and my personal experience viewing Creator (Self) and the beginning of Creation, the Creator was not light. Light is manifest of Creator.

[Shin'Ar]

Peregrinus,

you said this,

"One may speculate whatever one wants, but that does not make it so. Atheists speculate there is no Creator, yet does that make it so? If I speculate the sky is green and the oceans indigo, does that make it so? Of course not.

Based upon The Bible (Genesis), Ra,and my personal experience viewing Creator (Self) and the beginning of Creation, the Creator was not light. Light is manifest of Creator."UNQUOTE


This is all speculation and that I have made clear.

However, are you declaring in your post that your perception is fact?

Because I suggest that you check your Bible again and read this teaching within it along with many others,

"That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." John 1:9

And ask yourself, that if you have misinterpreted the Bible, is it possible that you may also have misinterpreted Ra.

With regard to your experience of you being the creator in the void, who can argue that? I would not try. I will allow you that belief as that is your choice and your experience.

I refuse to deny anything as possible. But I will also always try to apply a little intelligence to my thinking and speculation. And when I do that, I will try to refrain from accepting every claim of one saying that they have been 'God in the instant of Creation', and take it with a grain of salt to dilute the distaste of such a claim.

I think that there will certainly be instances where an ancient consciousness may be so ancient that it may have memory of such to a degree passed on in the sharing of the ancient fields of consciousness as they proceeded from The Source, and yet could not possibly be The Source at that very instance, otherwise infinity has a beginning and that is not Infinity.

[Peregrinus]

I agree we each perceive based upon the distortions which we use to interpret the energetic world, which distorts any possible understanding of Creator. The Creator is without boundaries, rules, beginning, end...

Coming to know the self is not a destination, but a path of ever increasing consciousness. You are Creator just as I am Creator, as is everything but the void.

Instead though, of speculating, perhaps you might consider seeking truth inwardly. All is revealed to s/he who seeks, even those things never imagined.

[JustLikeYou]

The above statement is incorrect. The Creator created Light from Self, Love, upon the Original Thought. This was the first dichotomy. The second dichotomy was light interpenetrating darkness. By distorting love/light/darkness, exploration of Self is gained.

I agree with you. I knew even as I typed those lines that I was not getting it right, but I couldn't come up with a better phrasology at the time. Now I will make an effort.

From 13.16:

Each step recapitulates intelligent infinity in its discovery of awareness.

The first true dichotomy is Love and Light (also known as Yang and Yin); however, this dichotomy was borne, as all things are, of that first great event, the discovery of awareness. I don't think that calling this event a dichotomy is accurate and I also don't think that my description "part of Infinity is aware and the other part is that of which the first part is aware" is accurate. In truth, it is all of Infinity which becomes aware of all of Infinity through reflexion. This is actually a paradox and not a dichotomy. Anyone who visits his own awareness with an honesty willingness to accept what he finds will discover the inseparable nature of subject and object which, despite their unity, still remain distinct as the two halves of awareness, each of which contains the whole. The paradox of awareness comes (logically) before both Love and Light because this original paradox is precisely how the dichotomy of Love and Light were discovered within Infinity in the first place. Moreover, the creation of Light from Love is a microcosmic recapitualtion of Infinity's discovery of awareness, as is Light's filling the plenum and eventually returning to its source.

Edited to add: This original paradox is also referred to when Ra says that "unity has a potential and kinetic" (27.5). The potential and kinetic do not distinguish Love and Light from each other, but rather Intelligent Infinity and Intelligent Energy (which is both Love and Light).

[Shin'Ar]

I agree we each perceive based upon the distortions which we use to interpret the energetic world, which distorts any possible understanding of Creator. The Creator is without boundaries, rules, beginning, end...

Coming to know the self is not a destination, but a path of ever increasing consciousness. You are Creator just as I am Creator, as is everything but the void.

Instead though, of speculating, perhaps you might consider seeking truth inwardly. All is revealed to s/he who seeks, even those things never imagined.

I like what you have written here Peregrinus. It reveals your character. However I would say that speculation itself is nothing more than the continuing thought of the Creator. Without speculation how does one seek their inner divinity?

Speculation is the pure motion of thought which is the Intelligent Energy of creation. Discovery and revelation is simply the treasure it has to offer to those who diligently speculate with open mind.

---

Anyone who visits his own awareness with an honesty willingness to accept what he finds will discover the inseparable nature of subject and object which, despite their unity, still remain distinct as the two halves of awareness, each of which contains the whole. The paradox of awareness comes (logically) before both Love and Light....

I think your words here actually support what I have suggested in that we should not be separating the One from its intelligence in an effort to understand its intelligent energy.

I do have a question though.

I know that Ra uses love in these quotes. But I am curious as to what you define as love.

Why do we keep placing love into this equation as some component of creation? Do you then also see hate as a component of creation?

[godwide_void]

Shin'Ar, as extraordinarily precise and perceptive all of your and Siren's combined insights are, I must say that Peregrinus' description of perceiving the Creator as being a gargantuan mass of black energy, tiny galaxies embedded as shimmering jewels of light in it, utterly alone in darkness and solitude, is extremely resonant with me/my experience and I urge you to consider it. With this I am addressing your's and Siren's supposed belief that the Creator is Itself comprised of pure light, although please correct me if I am wrong in pinpointing that as your view. Light may emanate from the Creator, and it may be the base material which forges all of Its manifestations, but the very essence of its form is pure darkness. Before a room is equipped with the capability of electricity and lightbulbs are installed, what is there?

Without the blackness of the void, light would have nothing to illuminate. Both are complimentary, yet what naturally exists in such a way that it appears as being the precedent factor, is darkness. If there were no galaxies and any type of creation were taken out of the equation, the Creator would be a perpetually expanding ocean of utter blackness (I saw a distinct face with eyes, yet I do not recall if those eyes were also galaxies or distinct eyes of their own). The only light that forms the Creator are the lights of Its creations within and protruding from its transparent, formless abysmal being. It is the very darkness which it is "alone" in, yet surrounded inwardly by its many offspring.

The One Consciousness, the One Infinite Creator/Creation, and the infinite canvas in which it can act out its process of being through every individual portion of aware consciousness it spawns within Itself as the core attribute that defines its very being, are both interchangeable and distinct. The infinite void-like canvas, the blackboard which Siren described, is intelligent infinity or more accurately the template or coding that empowers the Creator. The void, blackness or sentient component that fills up that blackboard is the One Infinite Creator, who also functions as the painter of the canvas, painting new life with its formless brush, the paint it uses being that of light. It itself is not light, however, at least not upon the surface or in any visible sense. The unpotentiated source it draws upon to channel the light it uses, its blood, the intelligent energy, is not manifest unless the void directs and projects it as a manifestation on the fabric of intelligent infinity which is what sustains the All. By the way, Shin'Ar, when you refer to the Source, are you referring to the One Infinite Creator or the mystery that It sprung from? While the One Infinite Creator is the Source we directly sprang from, what gave birth to It is the mysterious factor which codes it and devised the blueprint for it, the Infinite which we all (the supreme Creator included) seeks to grasp.

Edit: I had also forgot to address the mention of Ra's claiming of true simultaneity by Patrick and Siren and clarify my stating of perceiving brief but true linearity from my experience. From this density's influence on the perspective of my awareness of that process I paradoxically observed a "progression" from one mode of infinite simultaneity (chaotic, undirected infinity) to another form of infinite simultaneity (ordered infinity as the eternally still yet constantly expansive Creator with a set being in motion through becoming). Within this form of the Creator, it experiences all events as happening in one tranquil and eternal moment, yet within, to lower awareness, somehow there is the perception of very, very long and endless stretch of linear time with a past, a present, a future, minutes, hours, days, years, yet all this "time" is contained within a moment of utter timelessness.

This vantage point of transcending time by being all-time as no-time, this offers insight on how synchronicities occur, how every instance in life, no matter how far apart, appear connected. The Creator is the most masterful improviser there is. How else can it cause such seemingly incoherent and disconnected actions by trillions upon trillions of entities within it doing their own thing to come together in one coherent movement? Simultaneity is such that linearity isn't a negated concept, and both may exist alongside and within one another, yet the former is the metaprocess. However, it can also be considered that there may have been metalinearity to lead the state of Infinity from passively unaware to actively intelligent, yet from the perspective of Infinity this division of events of its process occurs within the very same unending moment, and while the moment does not change, mass change can occur within that moment, just as an eternal being contains numerous beings experiencing change in many moments within the only moment of being which it knows.

[Siren]

With this I am addressing your's and Siren's supposed belief that the Creator is Itself comprised of pure light, although please correct me if I am wrong in pinpointing that as your view.

You shall be corrected then, for I haven't implied the Creator is Itself comprised of pure light. This is not my belief, this is Shin'Ar's understanding. Perhaps there was an error in your statement, GWV.

Light may emanate from the Creator, and it may be the base material which forges all of Its manifestations, but the very essence of its form is pure darkness. Before a room is equipped with the capability of electricity and lightbulbs are installed, what is there?

This is precisely my point. Before even coming across the Ra Material I could not imagine this boundless infinity as anything else but a void of absolute blackness. This is what I have always referred as the Greek word Khaos, which (prior to being corrupted into "chaos") literally means: "gaping void, abyss, vastness, emptiness," which I always knew was the infinite potential of Infinity.

This became quite obvious at a very early age (probably around 6-8) because (I was a very creative/imaginative) I would close my eyes and/or go into a dark room and this blackness would be filled with all sorts of images and forms of dancing light. I knew I was constructing all these figures of light. It was obvious to me I needed blackness to create.
And I also found it particularly curious how my creativity and inspiration would literally flood my mind in the dark and quiet of night when everyone was asleep and there was no activity whatsoever. This is also why even today it takes me about 1 hour to fall asleep. I call it my "pre-sleep meditation time." Many of my insights/epiphanies occur during that time. It is one of the most important times of the day, and I look forward to it every night.

[Shin'Ar]

Shin'Ar, as extraordinarily precise and perceptive all of your and Siren's combined insights are, I must say that Peregrinus' description of perceiving the Creator as being a gargantuan mass of black energy, tiny galaxies embedded as shimmering jewels of light in it, utterly alone in darkness and solitude, is extremely resonant with me/my experience and I urge you to consider it. With this I am addressing your's and Siren's supposed belief that the Creator is Itself comprised of pure light, although please correct me if I am wrong in pinpointing that as your view. Light may emanate from the Creator, and it may be the base material which forges all of Its manifestations, but the very essence of its form is pure darkness. Before a room is equipped with the capability of electricity and lightbulbs are installed, what is there?

Without the blackness of the void, light would have nothing to illuminate. Both are complimentary, yet what naturally exists in such a way that it appears as being the precedent factor, is darkness. If there were no galaxies and any type of creation were taken out of the equation, the Creator would be a perpetually expanding ocean of utter blackness (I saw a distinct face with eyes, yet I do not recall if those eyes were also galaxies or distinct eyes of their own). The only light that forms the Creator are the lights of Its creations within and protruding from its transparent, formless abysmal being. It is the very darkness which it is "alone" in, yet surrounded inwardly by its many offspring.

The One Consciousness, the One Infinite Creator/Creation, and the infinite canvas in which it can act out its process of being through every individual portion of aware consciousness it spawns within Itself as the core attribute that defines its very being, are both interchangeable and distinct. The infinite void-like canvas, the blackboard which Siren described, is intelligent infinity or more accurately the template or coding that empowers the Creator. The void, blackness or sentient component that fills up that blackboard is the One Infinite Creator, who also functions as the painter of the canvas, painting new life with its formless brush, the paint it uses being that of light. It itself is not light, however, at least not upon the surface or in any visible sense. The unpotentiated source it draws upon to channel the light it uses, its blood, the intelligent energy, is not manifest unless the void directs and projects it as a manifestation on the fabric of intelligent infinity which is what sustains the All. By the way, Shin'Ar, when you refer to the Source, are you referring to the One Infinite Creator or the mystery that It sprung from? While the One Infinite Creator is the Source we directly sprang from, what gave birth to It is the mysterious factor which codes it and devised the blueprint for it, the Infinite which we all (the supreme Creator included) seeks to grasp.

Edit: I had also forgot to address the mention of Ra's claiming of true simultaneity by Patrick and Siren and clarify my stating of perceiving brief but true linearity from my experience. From this density's influence on the perspective of my awareness of that process I paradoxically observed a "progression" from one mode of infinite simultaneity (chaotic, undirected infinity) to another form of infinite simultaneity (ordered infinity as the eternally still yet constantly expansive Creator with a set being in motion through becoming). Within this form of the Creator, it experiences all events as happening in one tranquil and eternal moment, yet within, to lower awareness, somehow there is the perception of very, very long and endless stretch of linear time with a past, a present, a future, minutes, hours, days, years, yet all this "time" is contained within a moment of utter timelessness.

This vantage point of transcending time by being all-time as no-time, this offers insight on how synchronicities occur, how every instance in life, no matter how far apart, appear connected. The Creator is the most masterful improviser there is. How else can it cause such seemingly incoherent and disconnected actions by trillions upon trillions of entities within it doing their own thing to come together in one coherent movement? Simultaneity is such that linearity isn't a negated concept, and both may exist alongside and within one another, yet the former is the metaprocess. However, it can also be considered that there may have been metalinearity to lead the state of Infinity from passively unaware to actively intelligent, yet from the perspective of Infinity this division of events of its process occurs within the very same unending moment, and while the moment does not change, mass change can occur within that moment, just as an eternal being contains numerous beings experiencing change in many moments within the only moment of being which it knows.

Godwide,
It would be inaccurate to say that I think the void is ‘filled with light’.
I am not suggesting that the void is anything at all because there is no way for me to know what the void would be. It is incomprehensible.

But If I was to speculate on what it might be like I have equated it to the same thing we see behind our closed eyes. A blending of darkness and light. Colors of blues. greens, yellow, reds, and violets. At least that is what I see behind my closed eyelids.
What I am proposing is that creation is an extension of this void/source, and not some new aspect that had not existed before it.
As I told Peregrinus, I can neither deny or affirm his experience and speculation, whether he believes it or not.
I can only relate my understanding of the source Being.

You say that while in the void there was no light, just blackness, and then you say that the only light you could see seemed to be what could have been its two eyes, and then you go on to say that you are not sure if THOSE were galaxies or not.
That is not perpetual blackness, is it.
Next you speak of a canvas of blackness on which creation is painted. I realize that you are speaking metaphorically but Is a canvas to be painted on not a ‘thing’. Is that something left over from another creation? If nothing exists besides blackness, then what is this canvas? What is this void? And how can something prior to anything even being created be perpetually expanding?

My thinking takes this into consideration and asks that we be certain that we are going all the way back as we speculate about this. How do you know that you are in a place ‘prior to’ creation in your experience, and not in the creation in its earliest stages?

When you say this,
“The unpotentiated source it draws upon to channel the light it uses, its blood, the intelligent energy, is not manifest unless (the void directs and projects it) as a manifestation on the fabric of intelligent infinity which is what sustains the All.”

It almost sounds as though you are now saying that the void is creating.

Which leads to my answer to this question from you,

“By the way, Shin'Ar, when you refer to the Source, are you referring to the One Infinite Creator, or the mystery that It sprung from?”

What I am supposing is that The Source and the void are One and the same.
What spawns is the result of duality as ‘being proceeds from awareness’
.
In this way of thinking there is no separation of light, love, will or any other aspect of creation or void.
Everything is simply an extension and expansion of The One. What is being debated here is the issue of what light is, and whether or not the void is ‘void’ of anything that was connected to the Source.
I think not. I do not even like to refer to it as the void. I think of it as Infinite Light. I think All is One. And I suggest that in the beginning there was Light. Infinite Light.

Now that does not mean that it was brightness which would illuminate blackness. That means that within the blackness there was also light, which you yourself say that you saw as two eyes, and in my mind, I choose to call the plenum a blend of the two, light and darkness, rather than darkness alone, because Light is how the ancients refer to it in many religious cultures.

Think of this, why would light spawn from that which was absolutely void of light? What we are asking here is the same question as ‘where did matter come from when there was no matter at all?
My premise is that what we have now as creation is nothing more than the extension of what already existed infinitely, light. The only thing added to this is awareness/consciousness which resulted in duality which caused the energy for that light to move and alter.

With regard to simultaneity I can only repeat what I have always stated, that if there is simultaneity than Infinity is not infinite. Simultaneity automatically suggest that all is finished and finalized in such a way that the beginning and end are available in some manner of experiencing time as a finished concept of experience.
If there is a completed system of events that can be experienced simultaneously, than that automatically denies the nature of Infinity and also the teachings of the Ancients which clearly declare that we exist within an infinite Mystery still unfolding, and our choices are not already manifest in some already experienced future.

---

I would close my eyes and/or go into a dark room and this blackness would be filled with all sorts of images and forms of dancing light.

Again, as with Godwide, I point out that you say that this blackness is filled with dancing light. he saw two eyes or galaxies. you see images and dancing light.

And yet you both claim that it is utter blackness.

Can you elaborate?

[Siren]

First of All Siren,

I want to thank you deeply for challenging these thoughts along with me, with such depth and congruity. It is via such speculation and discussion that deep learning and further understanding can be had. I am always seeking to find thoughts that challenge my own which may enhance my path into further understanding.

The gratitude is reciprocal. You learn/teach from me, I learn/teach from you. We all learn/teach from/to each other. The One learn/teaches from/to Itself.

Becoming locked into a belief system as though it is no longer speculation, or for the purpose of wanting to avoid being wrong about a matter is the end of learning and I have sworn to be ever cautious of that trap.

Let us be glad then and rejoice that we may have this 3rd density experience from which we may seek to comprehend the Source whence we came. Within this density we shall not fully, purely, truly attain this understanding, yet this experience is nevertheless most rich and useful for some of us who (for whatever reasons—known or unknown) seek in this particular direction.

To this I acknowledge that I see Light as being two aspects of the One, just as darkness and light are two aspects of the One.

I am compelled to comment upon this. Thinking in terms of "light VS dark" is, in my humble opinion, quite misleading, archaic and illogical.

There is LIGHT. The actual polarity of this light is BRIGHTness (which is what people would typically refer to as "light") and DARKness (which is what people commonly understand as "absence of light"—when in fact it's simply (1) a lesser intensity of brightness of light, and/or (2) the absorption of this light, which may appear as non-radiance of light*). These two are qualities of LIGHT.

[*This "darkness," however, is NOT what I refer to as the Void/Plenum/Infinity/Nothingness.]

So in essence, there are degrees of BRILLIANCE to that LIGHT. That LIGHT may be perceived as BRIGHTER or DARKER. Higher density light will always be considered a greater, brighter, truer light from the vantage point of a lower density (i.e. from 3rd density perspective, 4D would appear as much, much brighter in contrast, 5D as overwhelmingly luminous, and so on).

It seems that we only really differ in that you acknowledge Intelligent Energy as being love, which creates light/matter.

Whereas I acknowledge Light as the Source/Infinity from which further light spawns and becomes creation. And so it is this aspect of your definition of Love which becomes the variable that differentiates our thought processes.

Indeed, we differ on this point. The sequence is Love (the FOCUSing of Intelligent Infinity) creating the phenomenon we call LIGHT, the only material in and of the Creation.

EDIT
I do not intend to imply that this "light" must is separate from that energy/vibration, which is Love. All light (and matter) is IMBUED with that very energy. Light is the medium, the vehicle through which this ENERGY runs through. Light is vibrant because Love vibrates, breathes and pulsates within and through it. It is that Love/Thought that creates, transforms, manifests, articulates all matter/light. Love QUICKENS matter, which is light, and light is ALIVE, and the LIFE is Love. Light is inexorably intertwined to Love.

It is not as if the Logos says "let there be light!" and light spawns "somewhere" OUTSIDE of the Logos. The Logos/Love breathes through that light the same way breath runs through your body. The Logos clothes itself, and all of its "parts," in light. The glove is not separate from the hand, so to speak.

Again, these are very subtle nuances. It is not absolutely critical for you to see things the same way. This is 3D, the density of choice and responsibility, not 5D, the density of light proper. The Law of Light is not the lesson of 3D.

Another brief note: whether condensed or un-condensed, the only MATERIAL is still LIGHT (just like frozen water and gaseous water remain being water—using this analogy, what you call "matter" here would be ice and what you call "light" would be the vapor).

Addendum
Let us set a foundation from which to work upon. There is LIGHT. Let us accept that all MATERIAL that makes up (builds up) every-THING is LIGHT. Therefore, your body right now is made of light (tissue, flesh, bones, blood, cells, chemicals, photons, etc, etc, it's all light matter in various degrees of consistency/frequency within a 3rd density configuration). Yes, it is MATTER, but matter is LIGHT. Is this agreeable to you?

From the grand-view of the Logos, the One Light (which you would refer as the "True Light") is prismatically refracted into the rainbow-spectrum (7 densities). Each "step" of light (from red to violet) represents a gradual increase in the capacity of welcoming and accepting and working with greater intensities of light. This goes for both so-called "negative" and "positive" adepts. The only difference is that the positive adept walks the path of light seeking the brightness and radiating light to all, whilst the negative adept walks the path of light seeking the darkness and absorbing light from all else. Both entities are light beings, both entities depend on light, both entities made of light. One radiates light (hence the brightness), the other absorbs light (hence the darkness). There is no such thing as a non-light being.

I only bring this up because in understanding the philosophy of both polarities of service, one may better comprehend the LIGHT.

All thought is vibration/light/sound/ becoming material as it condenses. We agree on this. It is the Source, the aspect of love, and the concept of the void from which it spawns where our semantics part ways.

From this quote, I would pluck out "light" from "vibration/sound" and place it alongside "material." Thus it would read as follows:
All thought is vibration/sound becoming light/material as it condenses.

Again, a very subtle correction. As I mentioned earlier, light/matter is inexorably intertwined to Love, and Love is imbued into all matter/light. These two concepts are not really separate.

Okay let us agree that when we speak of distortion we are speaking of the first vibration or motion or energy of the Source. As such we cannot suggest that the Source is the first distortion, as it is the Source of the first distortion.

I suppose we can mutually agree on this. I would employ the term "Source" as Intelligent Infinity (out of which a Love/Thought focuses and light results as consequence). It being "the Source" in the sense that every Love, or Creative Principle, emerges from It and merges back into It eternally. However, you may prefer to liken this Source to the "Mystery" of Infinity itself (prior to any awareness/consciousness/intelligence), which I would also agree with.

Here Ra says that the first distortion is basically the ‘will’ to love, and that ‘love’ itself is the second distortion. Love being intelligent energy creates ‘Light’, which by succession will be the third distortion.

You seem to have accurately grasped this concept.

I am saying that Infinity is Light, which begets Intelligent Energy, which is the force of extending The Light, via the Process of Being/Intelligent Energy, which creates vibration/light/matter, which is simply the extension of The One/Light/Source/Infinity into existence as an energy/thought/vibration.

Here you state Infinity is Light which begets Intelligent Energy, which extends light, which creates further vibration/light/matter. This is somewhat baffling.

In your attempt to break down the process of being into various distortions, you have inadvertently separated that which is One

I apologize if this is how it appeared to you. There is no separation. This is, however, quite difficult to accurately express when attempting to describe a process which may appear as linear/sequential.

Here seems to be the glitch, in that the other quotes suggest that love and intelligent energy, being the first distortion, are one and the same, from which comes matter/light.

This is no glitch. This is precisely correct. But again (I believe I'm saying this for the third time already), this Love/intelligent energy is imbued into all matter/light, so that matter/light carries this Love/intelligent energy. However, the difference between "light" and "energy" is extremely subtle, and we do not consider it critical to make a very stark distinction betwixt the two.

In your order of succession the void is some sort of infinite nothingness/blackness where some Free Will of intelligent nature spawned and by love created all to follow.

This is basically correct. I could offer some further corrections/clarifications however, but I would only be repeating myself again. I believe I've explicated this clearly enough, and I believe you grasped the gist of it sufficiently well already.

In my order of succession the void is Infinite Light, The Source from which all spawned.

Which is clearly where we clash/differ.

We are made in the image of God. We are One with God. But we are NOT God, rather we are the Process of God ‘being’.

Or rather, you are God experiencing Itself as God already being God.

---

Again, as with Godwide, I point out that you say that this blackness is filled with dancing light. he saw two eyes or galaxies. you see images and dancing light.

And yet you both claim that it is utter blackness.

Can you elaborate?

I cannot speak for GWV. I will, however, speak in regards to my experience and what I learned/discovered from it.

This "blackness" is the infinite potential of Intelligent Infinity. The reason why there is light is because "I" am the THOUGHT/FOCUS of it. This is what Love does: it creates light from infinite potential.

I cannot stop it.

I have attempted to "see" only blackness absolute for years, and I have not been successful. I have even deliberately blinded myself and isolated myself from all light and sound in a chamber for a couple days (a sort of "sensory deprivation tank"), yet I still saw light, imagined light, dreamt light, and I heard the sound of my thoughts, the pulsation of my heart and the breath of my life (in fact, in that pitch-black obscurity I became even more AWARE of myself).

I shall, however, if/when my efforts are sufficient, return to that state of un-focused, un-potentiated, un-differentiated Infinity. The time, however, is not yet.

Thus, for the time being, I dream this dream of light. And light is my creation, my tool and my material, the medium through which I experience myself; and as I climb up the Rainbow Stairway, I approach ever closer to the pure White Light at the end of this Octave. I shall then fully know myself as the Pure Vibration that is Love pulsating "behind" that light. I will have satisfied my own intelligent estimate of a method of knowing myself. And then, finally, I shall dissolve once more into the One and All, into Nothingness, into Infinity.

Thus it all ends/begins in Mystery.

[godwide_void]

You say that while in the void there was no light, just blackness, and then you say that the only light you could see seemed to be what could have been its two eyes, and then you go on to say that you are not sure if THOSE were galaxies or not.
That is not perpetual blackness, is it.
Next you speak of a canvas of blackness on which creation is painted. I realize that you are speaking metaphorically but Is a canvas to be painted on not a ‘thing’. Is that something left over from another creation? If nothing exists besides blackness, then what is this canvas? What is this void? And how can something prior to anything even being created be perpetually expanding?

I did not say that the only source of light I saw were "Its eyes", I specifically stated that the only forms of light embedded in It were the galaxies which adorned It. All these galaxies are subsequent manifestations of It. Its actual form/body/being is a void, a mass of infinitely expanding blackness. I describe It, the void, the One Infinite Creator, as being a canvas as it is what all "paintings" or creations are engraved in. I make mention of observing "eyes" because, as I have described in my experience many times before, every galaxy which lay scattered in this void appeared to compose a distinct face. Whether the galaxies which appeared as eyes had a literal function as eyes seems unlikely, and it's best left to the conclusion that it is otherwise. Again, from what my experience has revealed to me, the Creator is the void; you may say that peering into outer space is taking a gander at its innards, and the only light emanate from the galaxies or rather collectively from every celestial sphere contained in all galaxies. The void is the canvas of blackness, and it is ever expanding, and as it creates new "empty space", more creations manifest to fill that space, the arena of these creations being their own galaxies.

My thinking takes this into consideration and asks that we be certain that we are going all the way back as we speculate about this. How do you know that you are in a place ‘prior to’ creation in your experience, and not in the creation in its earliest stages?

I would actually suggest that I experienced the Creator as It 'currently' is, and am not placing any particular frame of time or estimating what phase I bore witness to. I do not believe that my experience breached the foetal stages of creation. I do know that I observed the One as it is at the moment which we are having this discussion, and I am content knowing that I have seen the original form of all forms of life, what observes through us all, and what precedes, sustains and follows all things.

When you say this,
“The unpotentiated source it draws upon to channel the light it uses, its blood, the intelligent energy, is not manifest unless (the void directs and projects it) as a manifestation on the fabric of intelligent infinity which is what sustains the All.”

It almost sounds as though you are now saying that the void is creating.

Of course. The One Infinite Creator is always creating, my friend! It is equated to the void to me. The canvas of the entire Creation is the void. Every thing and being which springs forth and exists does so within the boundless confines of the void.

Which leads to my answer to this question from you,

“By the way, Shin'Ar, when you refer to the Source, are you referring to the One Infinite Creator, or the mystery that It sprung from?”

What I am supposing is that The Source and the void are One and the same.
What spawns is the result of duality as ‘being proceeds from awareness’
.
In this way of thinking there is no separation of light, love, will or any other aspect of creation or void.
Everything is simply an extension and expansion of The One. What is being debated here is the issue of what light is, and whether or not the void is ‘void’ of anything that was connected to the Source.
I think not. I do not even like to refer to it as the void. I think of it as Infinite Light. I think All is One. And I suggest that in the beginning there was Light. Infinite Light.

I see where the confusion is present. You're taking void to mean "nil" or containing nothing, while I'm using void as I would abyss or as an infinite sea of blackness. The One is the void and the Source, yet I'd assumed that you also were using the term Source to imply the state of infinity before it directed itself into manifesting the Creator.

Now that does not mean that it was brightness which would illuminate blackness. That means that within the blackness there was also light, which you yourself say that you saw as two eyes, and in my mind, I choose to call the plenum a blend of the two, light and darkness, rather than darkness alone, because Light is how the ancients refer to it in many religious cultures.

Think of this, why would light spawn from that which was absolutely void of light? What we are asking here is the same question as ‘where did matter come from when there was no matter at all?
My premise is that what we have now as creation is nothing more than the extension of what already existed infinitely, light. The only thing added to this is awareness/consciousness which resulted in duality which caused the energy for that light to move and alter.

Light may have been the essence of infinity pre-creation, but I will reiterate that the One Infinite Creator is itself not a vast being of light. As I've tried to clear up above, the only sources of light which I observed were those of the galaxies which littered Its form, a form which is an abyss of immense proportions. Is what we consider outer space made of light? We can account for much, much more darkness comprising space than of light, which largely emanates from stars, planets, suns. Before those planetary bodies gave off light, they were formed in the void of outer space through natural processes. Remember, that we exist within the Creator at this very moment. We are Its cells. What we call outer space should be properly considered "inner space", the inner space of the Creator. It is the container of the cosmos.

With regard to simultaneity I can only repeat what I have always stated, that if there is simultaneity than Infinity is not infinite. Simultaneity automatically suggest that all is finished and finalized in such a way that the beginning and end are available in some manner of experiencing time as a finished concept of experience.
If there is a completed system of events that can be experienced simultaneously, than that automatically denies the nature of Infinity and also the teachings of the Ancients which clearly declare that we exist within an infinite Mystery still unfolding, and our choices are not already manifest in some already experienced future.

The consideration of simultaneity doesn't go against your proclamation of an infinite mystery still unfolding; it is quite complimentary, in fact! As the metaprocess of being persists eternally, there are innumerable mini-processes happening. From the perspective of lower awareness, there are plenty of experiences that can be sectioned off into "individual" experiences with a discernible beginning and end. A race, for instance, has a beginning and an end to it. However, this is only from veiled awareness.

Shin'Ar, your perception is such that it encompasses a much more intricate understanding of the fluidity and sublimity of being which surpasses the perspectives of this veiled illusion. You see all as one fluid wave and rather than accounting for each individual ripple as appearing and coalescing back into the ocean, prefer to understand that the beginning and ending of all ripples occurs in a sea which knows neither and experiences only progression.

Ultimate simultaneity doesn't entail that events are played out side by side, such as a marathon and the viewing of a movie by the same being in parallel lives are happening at once, although this is so. It more properly refers to the notion that every individual moment that occurs, even with our perception of linear time and a distinct passage of time linking one event to the next, exist within the eternal moment which the Creator experiences. For instance, I perceive myself typing out this response from you. From my awareness, this is a specific event which is happening at a "different time" than the dinner I had last night. I can choose to section off each experience as "dinner beginning, dinner ending" or "post beginning, post ending", although this would be silly. I do not divide up each experience, as it is the same awareness undergoing each experience, and each experience befalls one continuum of awareness. We are thrust into individual happenings with their own set and setting. Yet, if linear time is only an illusion, why do we experience events in a certain sequence? We do, and this is ephemeral truth for us, because we are currently experiencing lower awareness, where we directly experience ourselves as temporary forms of flesh, not grand beings of light.

From the awareness of the Creator, the birth and death of our specific current incarnations has happened already. The specific moments which any of us graduated school, began a career, and signed up to the Bring4th.org forums, are all experiences which the Creator is experiencing simultaneously. It is experiencing them simultaneously because while it may have been "different people" having these experiences at "different times", It is every person undergoing every experience, and all time is experienced by It. It is not bound by any such restraints. Past, present, and future, are not concepts which have any bearing on Its complete awareness. All linearity is within it, occurring simultaneously, and the trillions upon trillions of different experiences happening every moment in the Creation are known to It with immediacy and ease.

[Shin'Ar]

Instead of trying to keep up with both GWV in Siren in different posts I am going to attempt to end this in one post if that is acceptable and not offending. After reading both of your posts thoroughly I am left asking these questions and I will then elaborate on why?

Is there a difference between love and Intelligence?
Intelligent Infinity in my thinking more describes intelligent energy than it does The Source. Would you say that there exists intelligence in unawareness?
If awareness is the state upon which creation begins, than would you acknowledge that in the state of unawareness, prior to awareness, that there is no intelligent energy?
Also would you acknowledge that if intelligence, results from awareness and will, than it should be evolving just like everything else that proceeds from that origin? In other words does intelligence gain in intelligence as it experiences and creates?

This "blackness" is the infinite potential of Intelligent Infinity. The reason why there is light is because "I" am the THOUGHT/FOCUS of it. This is what Love does: it creates light from infinite potential.

I believe this statement has cleared up the glitch between our thought processes. What you are saying is that where you /god exists, that very existence/focus/love simultaneously creates light, where otherwise there would be darkness, or absence of light. You are saying that because you are there, there is light. If you were not there then there would be an absence of light.

Does this not imply then that you are light, that your very presence is light. Would it be wrong for me to say that you/god are light.

And if you are infinitely there, then that light that results from your presence is also infinitely there.
And this leads to my line of thinking above where I ask you, ‘is there intelligence where there is no awareness. Because from what you are saying, light is the result of your existence, which is infinite therefore light is infinite.

So the question remains to define the state of existence so we can determine the point of origin of light.

And that seems to lie within this aspect of ‘awareness versus unawareness’ and exactly when intelligence begins.

I will have satisfied my own intelligent estimate of a method of knowing myself. And then, finally, I shall dissolve once more into the One and All, into Nothingness, into Infinity.

Here you seem to define The One, and Infinity, as ‘nothingness’. Hence, our differences, and the reason for what I believe to be our confusion. Which leads us to how GWV also defines it.


GWV,
It seems that what you are saying is that the makeup of the canvas is the void. But is that not something created? Would this not be more akin to that which science is now discovering as dark matter which they also allude to as the building material of the universe, or that which the universe is actually painted upon?
Is a galaxy that appears as a face, or eyes, or anything, not light in what you describe as blackness? How can you say that it is utter blackness if you see light, whether it is in the form of galaxies or not.
So I have to assume that you are speaking of this ‘background’ when you say void, and that only leads me to further ask, what is this background made of ‘if it is capable of containing matter/light’.
To that Siren will answer ‘potential’. What would be your answer?

Also I note that you both describe this nothingness as ever expanding. How does nothing expand? How does nothing do anything at all if it’s virtually nothing at all.

Ah and here it is as I read further,

the Creator is the void; you may say that peering into outer space is taking a gander at its innards, and the only light emanate from the galaxies or rather collectively from every celestial sphere contained in all galaxies. The void is the canvas of blackness, and it is ever expanding, and as it creates new "empty space", more creations manifest to fill that space, the arena of these creations being their own galaxies.

Once again you and Siren have clearly acknowledged the void as the actual creator, which makes sense given your accounting and your effort to describe it.

When I ask you to consider that your experience was not a point of creation but rather observing a point within creation, then now your expression of it begins to make sense because you pinpoint the origin as the void, as well as the void being its own origin. You are ‘covering all of the bases’ so to speak in an attempt to support your description of your experience.

So when I say that the origin is Infinite Light/The Source, to that you say the origin is the Void/Potential.
And so we say the same thing except that you seem to suggest that light did not exist in the void/origin until awareness/intelligence/energy, even though you declare that light was there purely as a result of your existence and awareness of that existence/ self.

And so once again we have to ask at what point does unawareness become intelligence/love/will from which flows the Light?

And in my thinking the void is not the background for all of this process/being, for that is simply creation in motion.
The void would be that which existed prior to awareness, the stillness and emptiness of any presence or intelligence. That would be the true plenum.

The void is not an intelligently creating background canvas which spawns light. That is simply creation in action, not the void.
The void would be the absence of anything at all taking place. The absence of thought, being, intelligence or awareness.

The void is unawareness of anything. That does not mean nothingness, it just means unawareness.

And this does fall into line with your thinking as you have both expressed that it is by ‘awareness’ that both the presence of light, and what you have acknowledged as the void, come into being.

It seems, just as I thought, that you do not go back far enough to the origin in your description of Creation.
That which you would call the void, is not thinking back to the previous state of unawareness, which is what I would acknowledge as the void.
This begins to make sense and It has vastly helped me to understand GWV’s experience a great deal better. I thank you both for your patience with me.

Lol, I am responding paragraph by paragraph as I read through these posts and GWV always amazes me as he seems to answer my thinking one step ahead of me.
As I read on he actually affirms that which I just stated above as he earlier responded with this remark.

I would actually suggest that I experienced the Creator as It 'currently' is, and am not placing any particular frame of time or estimating what phase I bore witness to. I do not believe that my experience breached the foetal stages of creation. I do know that I observed the One as it is at the moment which we are having this discussion, and I am content knowing that I have seen the original form of all forms of life, what observes through us all, and what precedes, sustains and follows all things.

And so we have our difference in that you acknowledge the Void as the Source/Creator, whereas I would acknowledge the void as that which exists in which the awareness of the source happens.
The paradox remains in that in both estimations we fall victim to how there can be anything, whether Source or void, where nothing was yet created.

This is what I call Infinite Mystery.
And it is what you evade by declaring the void as the creator.

It is like we are at the starting point of creation where you all take a step forward to see what happens next, and I am taking a step backward to see what was there before. And this is the nature of Thoth in that It is always seeking the Mystery as infinitely unattainable. Whereas, the Goddess simply seeks to create, being divinely connected, inseparably, to The Source as Its Intelligent energy.

Or in other words, there is Intelligent Energy/The Goddess , intelligent energy which cannot be separated as distinct from The Source, which energetically seeks to create as thought vibration and consciousness./awareness, and there is the field of consciousness created by that process which, because of its intelligent design, seeks to know its origin. This would be the field of Thoth, and all fields created by that process of being.
GWV, this is the difference between us. You are the energy seeing that which you have made, which is you. And I am the process of that energy seeking to know its origin. We are One process of Being.

And again you precede my thinking by answering my thoughts before I can write them where you say,

I see where the confusion is present. You're taking void to mean "nil" or containing nothing, while I'm using void as I would abyss or as an infinite sea of blackness. The One is the void and the Source, yet I'd assumed that you also were using the term Source to imply the state of infinity before it directed itself into manifesting the Creator.

No I would not imply that the void is nothingness, that seems to be what Siren suggests. I refuse to define the void as anything, it is Infinite Mystery.

Yes, the One to me is Infinity, which contains All that exists since the origin, which is why I often refer to It as The One Consciousness. Reference to It as the Source is as the source of all that results from intelligent energy becoming aware within a state of Infinite nature. That Infinite nature is the void and the Mystery, wherein you would say that when awareness takes place light is the result. Therefore do we acknowledge The Source as Infinite Light.

Here you say ,

Light may have been the essence of infinity pre-creation, but I will reiterate that the One Infinite Creator is itself not a vast being of light. As I've tried to clear up above, the only sources of light which I observed were those of the galaxies which littered Its form, a form which is an abyss of immense proportions. Is what we consider outer space made of light? We can account for much, much more darkness comprising space than of light, which largely emanates from stars, planets, suns. Before those planetary bodies gave off light, they were formed in the void of outer space through natural processes. Remember, that we exist within the Creator at this very moment. We are Its cells. What we call outer space should be properly considered "inner space", the inner space of the Creator. It is the container of the cosmos. Before those planetary bodies gave off light, they were formed in the void of outer space through natural processes

You seem to say here that the only light that exists is that given off by the cosmic bodies, and yet it is your premise that these were created by light.

Shin'Ar, your perception is such that it encompasses a much more intricate understanding of the fluidity and sublimity of being which surpasses the perspectives of this veiled illusion. You see all as one fluid wave and rather than accounting for each individual ripple as appearing and coalescing back into the ocean, prefer to understand that the beginning and ending of all ripples occurs in a sea which knows neither and experiences only progression.

This statement would be accurate GWV. My understanding as you know is the result of my field and its information, as well as the guidance of ‘my gods/higher fields’. I cannot comprehend a Mystery of Infinity being able to know its beginning or its future Mystery because that is also infinite, and therefore it can only know its process of being.
However it would be inaccurate to say that I am not accounting for the fragmented consciousness of temporal experience, for that is what we experience now, and that is what I define clearly as the Process of Being..

Ultimate simultaneity doesn't entail that events are played out side by side, such as a marathon and the viewing of a movie by the same being in parallel lives are happening at once, although this is so. It more properly refers to the notion that every individual moment that occurs, even with our perception of linear time and a distinct passage of time linking one event to the next, exist within the eternal moment which the Creator experiences. For instance, I perceive myself typing out this response from you. From my awareness, this is a specific event which is happening at a "different time" than the dinner I had last night. I can choose to section off each experience as "dinner beginning, dinner ending" or "post beginning, post ending", although this would be silly. I do not divide up each experience, as it is the same awareness undergoing each experience, and each experience befalls one continuum of awareness. We are thrust into individual happenings with their own set and setting. Yet, if linear time is only an illusion, why do we experience events in a certain sequence? We do, and this is ephemeral truth for us, because we are currently experiencing lower awareness, where we directly experience ourselves as temporary forms of flesh, not grand beings of light.
From the awareness of the Creator, the birth and death of our specific current incarnations has happened already. The specific moments which any of us graduated school, began a career, and signed up to the Bring4th.org forums, are all experiences which the Creator is experiencing simultaneously. It is experiencing them simultaneously because while it may have been "different people" having these experiences at "different times", It is every person undergoing every experience, and all time is experienced by It. It is not bound by any such restraints. Past, present, and future, are not concepts which have any bearing on Its complete awareness. All linearity is within it, occurring simultaneously, and the trillions upon trillions of different experiences happening every moment in the Creation are known to It with immediacy and ease.

I would agree with all of this except when you or anyone attempts to include the future within that simultaneous experience of the One process. Simultaneity can be described as One experience of the process taking place and unfolding into Mystery, but it cannot be described as including an ‘already completed future’. When that is added to the description it redefines Infinity as something that has an end and a beginning. And I cannot get away from that fact by any other supposition proposed here.
I know that you both must tire of this exhausting process of thought but I continue to hand on your every word looking for anything that helps to clarify my own thinking. That has already been accomplished in this process and I thank you both for your tolerance and effort.

This is the reason I remain in this community.

[Siren]

I believe this statement has cleared up the glitch between our thought processes. What you are saying is that where you /god exists, that very existence/focus/love simultaneously creates light, where otherwise there would be darkness, or absence of light. You are saying that because you are there, there is light. If you were not there then there would be an absence of light.

What I am saying is that the FOCUSING/THOUGHT (LOVE) of the INTELLIGENCE of INFINITY is what creates LIGHT. Prior to INTELLIGENCE being FOCUSED (THOUGHT), INTELLIGENT INFINITY was in a phase of infinite potential "awaiting" its potentiation, if you will. The Thought, or intelligent ENERGY, was not yet.

Now, you may wonder, "how can there there be intelligence without thought?" Intelligence precedes thought. Thought, or Love, or Creative Principle, or intelligent energy, is the FOCUSING of Intelligent Infinity into a particular "direction" for the purpose of generating a system of experience via the medium we know as the Creation (which is constructed of light).

If you will, you may liken the potential of Intelligent Infinity as "latent" or "dormant" energy (where the potential energy is not yet active).

The first attested meaning of the word "ENERGY" meant "force of expression." It derives from L.L. energia, from Gk. energeia, which in turn comes from energon: "en" + "ergon," which literally means "at work, in action." This is what LOVE is, the actuator, the enabler, the kinetic, the energy, the force of expression. Thus, the Creative Principle (intelligent energy) behind Creation is the Thought/Focus/Love of Intelligent Infinity.

This energy is INTELLIGENT because Infinity is INTELLIGENT. And Love, in turn, taps/draws from its own infinite reservoir of infinite potential to create a Creation.

Does this not imply then that you are light, that your very presence is light. Would it be wrong for me to say that you/god are light.

No, it wouldn't be wrong. Would it be wrong to say you are the clothing you are wearing or the car you are driving?
This is like when the spiritual neophyte has an "eureka!" moment and says: "I am not my body!"
Oh, but you are your body (for as illusory as it may be). Now, are you ONLY the body? Certainly not!
By the same token, the One Infinite Creator is light, yet light is not all that It is.

So the question remains to define the state of existence so we can determine the point of origin of light.

The origination/termination point of all light is Love.
Love is the source of light.
Intelligent Infinity is the source of Love.
And the Mystery "prior" to intelligence being "awakened," is THE SOURCE, if you like.

And that seems to lie within this aspect of ‘awareness versus unawareness’ and exactly when intelligence begins.

Intelligence "begun" when Infinity became aware of itself, thus becoming Intelligent Infinity.

Here you seem to define The One, and Infinity, as ‘nothingness’. Hence, our differences, and the reason for what I believe to be our confusion.

I understand Intelligent Infinity as Oneness, Nothingness, void and plenum; the One Infinite Creator. This must be understood, however, as the triad of Infinite Potential, Love and light.

I seem to understand THE Mystery as "preceding" INTELLIGENT Infinity. But again, I have difficulty in separating intelligence from non-intelligence (as non-intelligence or non-awareness, non-consciousness cannot be comprehended WITH an intelligence/consciousness/awareness!).

So I have to assume that you are speaking of this ‘background’ when you say void, and that only leads me to further ask, what is this background made of ‘if it is capable of containing matter/light’.
To that Siren will answer ‘potential’.

Indeed. It is infinite POTENTIAL.

Also I note that you both describe this nothingness as ever expanding. How does nothing expand? How does nothing do anything at all if it’s virtually nothing at all.

Nothingness, in its infinite potential, potentially contains the infinitude for every-thing. Personally, I wouldn't describe it as "expanding" (if so, I would also have to say it is "contracting" at the same time); rather, I can simply surmise Nothingness has no edges, boundaries, limits and no form, therefore it is Infinite.

This is the awareness of Infinity (potential) before focusing (Love) into a creative experience (light)

And so once again we have to ask at what point does unawareness become intelligence/love/will from which flows the Light?

When INFINITY becomes aware/conscious/intelligence of its own infinitude, hence its potential. I don't know "when" that is, nor can I plumb into this Mystery.

The paradox remains in that in both estimations we fall victim to how there can be anything, whether Source or void, where nothing was yet created.

This void/plenum is not a creation, but Intelligent Infinity. The Creation (light) occurs when Intelligent Infinity focuses itself (Love).

The void would be that which existed prior to awareness, the stillness and emptiness of any presence or intelligence. That would be the true plenum.

The confusion seems to arise from your interpretation of void/plenum as being non-aware. From this, I suppose you place the "origin" of awareness upon that principle which we call Love/Thought/Logos, instead of Intelligent Infinity.

[Unbound]

I would like to put some quotes from a book I am reading called "The Mysticism of Sound and Music" by Hazrat Inayat Khan, a Sufi master.

"In the Vedas of the Hindus we read: Nada Brahma - sound, being the Creator. [Lit. Sound-God] In the works of the wise of ancient India we read: "First song, then Vedas or wisdom". When we come to the Bible, we find: "First was the word, and the word was God." and when we come to the Qur'an we read that the word was pronounced, and all creation was manifest. This shows that the origin of the whole creation is sound."

"Those who have probed the depths of material science as far as modern science can reach, do not deny the fact that the origin of the whole creation is in movement, in other words: vibration. It is this original state of the existence of life which is called in the ancient tradition sound, or the word. The first manifestation of this sound is therefore audible, the next manifestation is visible. In the forms of expressions of life, life has expressed itself first as sound, next as light."

"The nature of the creation is the doubling of one, and it is this doubling aspect which is the cause of all duality in life. This doubling aspect represents one positive part, the other part being negative; one expressive, the other responsive. Therefore in this creation of duality, spirit and nature stand face to face. And as there is the first aspect, which I have called sound, and the next, which I have called light, at first in these opposite nature aspects, or responsive aspects, only the light works, and if the creation does still deeper there is sound. In nature, which is face to face with spirit, what is first expressed is light, or what man first responds to is light, and what man responds to next is what touches him deeper: it is sound."

"The beauty of the whole creation is this, that creation has worked in two ways; in one way it has expressed, and in the other way it has made itself a mold in order to respond. For instance, there is substance - matter to touch - and there is a sense to feel touch. There is a sound, and at the same time there is a sense of hearing to perceive the sound. There is light, there are forms, there are colours, and at the same time there are eyes to see them."

"The heart finds a joy in feeling, in sorrow. It feels that it has been used, and in that there is a happiness. The Sufi trains the heart in feeling."

"As one sound is directed by another sound, so every motion is caused by another motion. Therefore no activity can take place without a directing activity, and that activity which directs all is called God. This supports the argument of the fatalist that all is done by God, and it also proves the view of the metaphysician that there is no such thing as chance. At the same time it explains that free will remains, since each sound, in its outward manifestation, hides within itself its directing activity, so that behind what man calls free will there is hidden God's will."

"Why is the world called an illusion by the mystics? Because the nature of manifestation is such that it envelopes its own secret within itself, and stands out in such a rigid form that the fineness, the beauty and the mystery of its character are hidden within itself."

"Question: What is the difference between sound and colour?
Answer: Sound and Colour are one, they are two aspects of life. Life and light are one. Life is light, and light is life, and so colour is sound and sound is colour. But where sound is colour it is most visible and least audible, and where colour is sound it is most audible and least visible. You can find the unity of colour and sound by studying and practicing the science of the culture of breath." [Sound is the breath of all things.]

Also, to any who might attempt, is there any consistent explanation of what "Intelligent Infinity" is? What does it mean for Infinity to be itself, and what allows Infinity to be Intelligent? What IS intelligence?

in·tel·li·gence   [in-tel-i-juhns] Show IPA
noun
1. capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding, and similar forms of mental activity; aptitude in grasping truths, relationships, facts, meanings, etc.
2. manifestation of a high mental capacity: He writes with intelligence and wit.
3. the faculty of understanding.
4. knowledge of an event, circumstance, etc., received or imparted; news; information.
5. the gathering or distribution of information, especially secret information.

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We would also express if that the primal expression of the Void is in its Awareness of Emptiness, thus the only thing that it is possible to "become aware of", is awareness itself. So, the Void represents complete Awareness, but also complete lack of Awareness because in Awareness of emptiness there is awareness of only awareness, but because awareness itself is without distortion this awareness is empty of perception. The balance of Absolute Awareness, and Awareness of Emptiness, result in a equilibrium which is the Void. We could perhaps refer to "Non-Awareness" as truly being only Awareness of Emptiness.

This differs from what we would call the Abyss, which is the Awareness of Nothing, nothing hereby defined as the reciprocal of the first perception of awareness, or the first interaction within the Void between Emptiness and Awareness. It is the first illusion. It is only from Something that the perception of Nothing can arise. So the Abyss and the Void are brother and sister. The Void is that potential state of all perception, the seat of Awareness. The Abyss is the Primal Darkness, the first awareness of awareness itself, which perceives nothing but awareness, wherein all is empty. Yet, this "Nothing" of the Abyss is illusory, for hidden within the Darkness of the Abyss is the Void of Infinity.

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For those familiar with the concept of the journey in to the underworld you may begin to see why it is necessary to first to be able to cross the threshold where the Dweller at the Threshold awaits, and then to enter in to the Abyss to find the lost fragments of the Self through the seeking of the Void of Infinity within. Only by crossing the Abyss will you find Infinity, the Void.

[Siren]

Exactly, SOUND: the Voice, the Word, Logos, Verbum, Theos, movement, vibration, pulsation, LOVE, the BREATH of LIFE.

[Unbound]

What is the sound of awareness?

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Or, even, what is the sound of infinity?

[caycegal]

The one undifferentiated intelligent infinity, unpolarized, full and whole, is the macrocosm of the mystery-clad being. We are messengers of the Law of One. Unity, at this approximation of understanding, cannot be specified by any physics but only be activated or potentiated intelligent infinity due to the catalyst of free will. This may be difficult to accept. However, the understandings we have to share begin and end in mystery.

[Unbound]

Oh, I do like Mystery!

[Sagittarius]

Great thread guys, learnt a lot.

[Shin'Ar]

What I am saying is that the FOCUSING/THOUGHT (LOVE) of the INTELLIGENCE of INFINITY is what creates LIGHT. Prior to INTELLIGENCE being FOCUSED (THOUGHT), INTELLIGENT INFINITY was in a phase of infinite potential "awaiting" its potentiation, if you will. The Thought, or intelligent ENERGY, was not yet.

If you will, you may liken the potential of Intelligent Infinity as "latent" or "dormant" energy (where the potential energy is not yet active).

This energy is INTELLIGENT because Infinity is INTELLIGENT. And Love, in turn, taps/draws from its own infinite reservoir of infinite potential to create a Creation.

To that line of thinking I would point out that if intelligence was a latent potential energy of Infinity waiting to be triggered somehow, then it would not really be accurate to define the void as intelligent infinity. To get around this you suggest that Infinity is intelligent energy which is intelligent because infinity is intelligent. But how does this address the intelligence as an evolving aspect of learning and increasing via experience of existence?
Are you suggesting that Infinity already contains all the intelligence of its potential before it even begins to experience by the focusing of that intelligent energy?

I understand what you are trying to say is that light exists because the potential for intelligence exists infinitely. And as soon as it is focused, aware, then that which already exists simply manifests. Therefore as you said, where I am, Light is.

So your real response to this OP on how infinity becomes aware, and the coinciding questions of exactly what becomes aware, and what does It become aware of, would be something like this:
The Void is The Creator, and it is infinite potential waiting to react to some catalyst.
But in this thinking you are trapped in a box within a box within a box. You never really address the origin because that origin always has another origin/catalyst in your supposition.

Where you and I differ Siren, is that I suggest that Infinity is the nature of The Source, which is Light. And when I say Light I do not mean light as brightness in the darkness. I mean Light as a vibration/distortion, the same as sound.
Sound is the frequency of the vibration of light as it extends from the Source concentrically. Matter would be the condensed form of vibration as it moves further from Its Source. I don’t know if that is scientifically appropriate or not, but that is the best way for me to describe my thinking.

You however are saying that Infinity is the creator, which is nothing until its potential is activated, at which time light is spawned as a result.

You asked me this ,
“The confusion seems to arise from your interpretation of void/plenum as being non-aware. From this, I suppose you place the "origin" of awareness upon that principle which we call Love/Thought/Logos, instead of Intelligent Infinity.” UNQUOTE

Not exactly Siren. I am suggesting that Light is the nature of Infinity, and The Source of the All. Awareness of Its existence as intelligence ‘comes to be’/develops/evolves as it exists infinitely. Its origin remains a Mystery, and we can only know the result of its effort to act on that awareness. That will caused the duality of The One because there can be no force/action without an equal and opposite reaction. That duality established the Process of Being as it tries to comprehend itself. In that Process of Being vibration was born and thus Light expanded into further Light, thought into further thought, sound into further sound, and so on. All one vibration emitting away from The Source and manifesting as various forms as it travels into the Infinite Unknown.

I understand Intelligent Infinity as Oneness, Nothingness, void and plenum; the One Infinite Creator. This must be understood, however, as the triad of Infinite Potential, Love and light.

I seem to understand THE Mystery as "preceding" INTELLIGENT Infinity.

So you see Intelligent Infinity as potential, but also as nothing ness.
And you see Mystery as preceding infinity.

So this combined states that ‘potential precedes Infinity’.
I cannot accept this because in my thinking once again, this seems to inappropriately define infinity. How can infinity be preceded?

[Shin'Ar]

Intelligent Infinity does not experience itself, does not know itself, from "outside" the Creation, but through a process of experience—which is only possible through the vehicular medium that is the Creation. Intelligent Infinity is an unfathomable mystery. And the IDEA to experience itself is the THOUGHT (Logos) that forms the Creation through which this infinity may be, well, experienced.

If it wasn't for your claim that Infinity does not experience itself, this quote would make absolute sense to me, and fully support what I have been saying about the Process of Being, which you call Process of Experience.

May I ask you a question with regard to potential which you define as the nature and latent energy of the Void.

What do you suppose is intelligent in Infinity, if it does not experience itself or know itself? That does not seem to be intelligence of any sort.

[SomaticDreams]

I offer a simpler explanation of infinity. To be simple is not to be simplistic, however.

There are, first off, a lot of temporal words being used in the cosmological discussion occurring, with much metaphysical speculation. Without the need to delve into speculation, we can simply look at the idea of infinity.

If the creator is infinity- then we have already made a very loaded statement.

A creator is an entity- it has the ability to create, and has a consciousness. We can speculate further, but there is no need to.

If such a creator is infinite it follows that it not only exists, but also does not. It is infinitely realized and unrealized. There must be a universe and also not. If the creator is infinite, it exists within and outside of time. There is no true temporal sequence in which the creation was 'created' but as an attempt to understand such great mystery, we ascribe temporal features to anthropomorphize the great mystery of creation.

This paradox of the creator is origin of all mystery, but in which we can understand that our seeking the creator is futile, but we do it anyways- this gives rise to meaning-making. (Is this true?...)

Indeed the greatest meaning in life is derived from the cosmological mystery. Although, if it creation is truly infinite, then there is a possibility of 'understanding' such infinity. What resides in us that is infinite? What allows us to commune with the infinite?

Our consciousness in meditation upon the infinite.

We know this to be the recommendation of many channels, and although we may 'speculate' upon the many infinite ways in which the cosmology works (as it truly is infinite), we may never understand such infinity in a rational way. We may commune our consciousness with the infinite, and in that communion of two infinite aspects of self-other/self we may come to know the creator in the only way possible. All other thoughts, speculations, movements, actions, desires and beliefs are catalyst to learn more about ourselves (this in it self is also part of the infinite getting to know itself, paradoxically, even though it already knows 'itself', existing within and outside of time.)

It is quite clear that speaking on the matter in terms of temporal/spatial terms and anthropomorphizing all speculation is futile because of the paradoxical mystery. The conduit of communion to the creator is meditation/prayer.

[Peregrinus]

I like what you have written here Peregrinus. It reveals your character. However I would say that speculation itself is nothing more than the continuing thought of the Creator. Without speculation how does one seek their inner divinity?

Speculation is the pure motion of thought which is the Intelligent Energy of creation. Discovery and revelation is simply the treasure it has to offer to those who diligently speculate with open mind.

Agreed

[Observer]

I love this thread.