Likes given and likes received

[ƒ❤losopher]

I'm not particularly fond of the implementation of the 'like'-button, either.

For one thing there's the ostrasizing-issue you mention, Monica. But there's also the prestige that comes with accumulating a high like-score. Quite easy if you've made some cronies.

Additionally, there's the same Orionite game of 'Who has the highest score?' with the number of posts.

Why not display the total posts in the profile page only. Renaming the 'like'-button in a -button is also a fine idea. But please without counting received/given loves in one's profile.

In its current state I simply boycott it.

[TheFifty9Sound]

It's just a button.

[Meerie]

Fool, I am terribly sorry...
I just checked and I had indeed given you likes. I removed them.
I had no idea about your boycott and the negative connotations you have with that button...
It won't happen again, I won't like your posts again, promised.

[Oldern]

How can you know the intent of a person giving the like?
how can you say it is divisive?
Isn't it more that maybe you didn't agree with the message conveyed in the post, and thusly you might feel uncomfortable someone else expressing a like for this post?
I think it belongs to everyone's free will to press the like button, or not. Why speculate on any kind of motivation behind it?

I agree with all that Pablisimo said in answer to your questions, and add this:

My only issue with the like button is when people use it not to like, but to dislike.

What I mean by that is when someone says something harsh, critical, or even downright nasty about someone, and that negative post gets the most likes of any post in the whole thread.

That is divisive. There's no speculation here. It's blatant. It's negative, it's divisive, it's hurtful, and it's contrary to the original intention of the like button. It's using something that was intended to be positive and uplifting, to tear someone down.

I've seen this happen many, many, many times here at B4. And what's interesting is that it's almost always the same clusters of people. A year or so ago, there was a certain cluster of people who 'liked' negative posts directed at a certain individual. Later, a different cluster of people did the same thing, directed at a different individual. And then that same cluster of people did it towards yet another individual. So I've observed maybe 2 or 3 clusters of people using the like button in a negative way, towards maybe 5 or 6 particular people.

At one of these times, the term dog-pile was used. That sums it up. It's a subtle, sneaky way to ostracize.

I don't think this has any place in a community with such high values as Bring4th. I think the negative outweighs the positive. Of course, as with any tool, it's not the fault of the tool. It's just a tool. Like a knife intended to chop vegetables, being used to kill someone. It's not the fault of the knife; the fault is in how it's used. But as long as people are going to use something that was intended as an uplifting thing, in a way to hurt others, then at least we shouldn't make it easy for them by handing over the knife.

Uhm, you could, maybe, just maybe, ignore the likes given to a "hurtful" post? And whether something is hurtful or not is entirely determined by that who is supposed to be "hurt" by the comment. I think that it is more than ridiculous to even contemplate on removing a button that does nothing but adds a like number to a post because you do not like when a group of people empower each other against their percieved opponent. What is the difference between cliques liking ech other's post (something which I have seen in arguments from BOTH sides quite a few times) or cliques discusing things in PM and then coming up with a consensus answer? One is transparent, other is not. Liking something is transparent, it is clear, it is visible. The interpretation? That is up to the individual.

[Shemaya]

I like the like button. I admit that I am very inconsistent with it, there are so many posts that I like that I haven't hit the button .

I don't think it's divisive, I just use it to express appreciation. And I feel appreciated if someone likes my post. And if no one likes my post than I have some catalyst to reinforce self-esteem within myself.

I can see it being divisive in the vegetarian/meat thread, but that topic was divisive and the like button was not the cause of the contention.

Really, if used positively, it' s a good thing. If someone is bothered by who likes what post, and how many likes they got......I think maybe they are giving too much power to something pretty insignificant.

[Monica]

Uhm, you could, maybe, just maybe, ignore the likes given to a "hurtful" post? And whether something is hurtful or not is entirely determined by that who is supposed to be "hurt" by the comment. I think that it is more than ridiculous to even contemplate on removing a button that does nothing but adds a like number to a post because you do not like when a group of people empower each other against their percieved opponent. What is the difference between cliques liking ech other's post (something which I have seen in arguments from BOTH sides quite a few times) or cliques discusing things in PM and then coming up with a consensus answer? One is transparent, other is not. Liking something is transparent, it is clear, it is visible. The interpretation? That is up to the individual.

Let's take it a step further then. Let's just ignore all hurtful comments altogether, and eliminate guideline #1. It's all so subjective.

[Oceania]

isn't that what we're supposed to do according to Ra?

[Monica]

I don't think it's divisive, I just use it to express appreciation.

I noticed it being used in a divisive way towards a few individuals, some time back. I probably noticed it more than others, since I was a moderator. Probably the only ones who noticed were those who had it directed at them, and me since I was moderating and paying more attention to community interactions.

And I feel appreciated if someone likes my post. And if no one likes my post than I have some catalyst to reinforce self-esteem within myself.

Well that's true. Everything is ultimately catalyst. Yet, we do still have forum guidelines and strive to have a somewhat harmonious, respectful environment. We don't want to knowingly provide ways to be divisive.

I can see it being divisive in the vegetarian/meat thread, but that topic was divisive and the like button was not the cause of the contention.

It wasn't just in that thread. I've seen this happen in many, many threads. It had nothing to do with the topic and everything to do with the cliques liking/disliking certain individuals.

[Patrick]

It's hard not to use the like button. I've been doing it for a couple days.

I would really like a button that only means that I have indeed read the post. Not that I liked it or not. Otherwise, I have to post a lot more just to say: "Thank you for your post".

On another forum I go to, there is a similar button. It's called "Thanks" and simply means that you are thanking the poster for the post.

I guess the "like" button could be used in this way too.

[Oceania]

i think you're over thinking it. it just means like. that's a good thing.

[Monica]

i think you're over thinking it. it just means like. that's a good thing.

From the perspective of the one doing the 'like' yes that's true. They aren't the one getting hurt or ostracized.

But as I said, I have a different perspective, having been the chief moderator for 3 years. Do you think I should have just looked the other way when they dogpiled on unity100?

[Oceania]

depends on what you mean dogpiled. i dunno what happened.

i think if the intention of the giver is to just like the post, then that's all that should matter. if you project something to it that makes you feel offended i think you're just trying to be offended.

[Patrick]

If there's no closure on this within the next couple days, I will start using the like button again. It's all good catalysts anyway.

[Oldern]

Let's take it a step further then. Let's just ignore all hurtful comments altogether, and eliminate guideline #1. It's all so subjective.

I am fine with this. But I also do not want to push any changes. I do not see how Likes have anything to do with how groups form and how they act. I see no point in living in the past - it does not matter what happened there. It literally does not matter: it is past for a reason. We past by it. Some of us was not even "here". Forum comments are also a tool for expressing contradictory, hurtful-to-some posts. Should they be removed as well?

And this is not an analogy or an exaggeration: if you go on the internet, you WILL find opposition to any idea, as long as you are consciously looking for it. If you accept this, you will no longer be bothered with it.

[Monica]

depends on what you mean dogpiled. i dunno what happened.

i think if the intention of the giver is to just like the post, then that's all that should matter.

Here's an example:

Let's say a user named MissMolly expressed an opinion. She said "I think electric cars are the way of the future. I just bought a hybrid and I'm very excited to share how easy it is to buy a hybrid and get it financed affordably. I don't want to contribute to pollution anymore by driving a gas-eating car."

Then, a user named ApricotPit posted "MissMolly, how dare you criticize me for driving a gas-eating car! I like my gas-eating car! Your opinion is stupid. In fact, you are stupid. Not only that, but you are arrogant, condescending, and judgmental. You are just a hypocritical, judgmental, bossy person trying to control us."

Then 7 users Billygoat, BlueberryPie, AppleAnnie, AlienAbductor, Cardreader, InYourFace, and Twinkletoes all 'like' ApricotPit's post.

Meanwhile, in another part of the forum, another user named Iamsmart posts this: "I understand the secrets of the universe. It's clearly explained in the Ra Material. It is...blah blah blah."

Another user named Ihatereading says "You think you're such a knowitall, Iamsmart. What kind of name is that anyway? You think you're better than us? huh? How dare you say you understand anything! None of us can understand anything! And you are an arrogant pig if you think you do!"

Then 7 other users - Sleepydwarf, Weedkiller, GIJoe, Imjusthereforfun, Dontaskme, BeautyQueen, and JoseTortilla - all 'like' that post.

Which leads to Iamsmart retorting "Hey, I'm just sharing with you what I learned. This is a discussion forum, right?"

Then, Ihatereading posts "You act like a know it all! I'm not going to bother responding to what you actually said. I just think you're an arrogant ass."

Then, predictably, the other 7 users all 'like' that post. And Ihatereading now thinks "ok cool. I have 7 other people who agree with me that Iamsmart is an arrogant ass."

And it turns into a battleground, with sides marked in the sand...

Does this clarify? Is it still "just a like button"?

if you project something to it that makes you feel offended i think you're just trying to be offended.

You misunderstand. Although it did happen to me too, I saw it happen to several other people, way before it ever happened to me. When it happened to other people, why would I get offended? No one was directing anything at me.

So it has nothing to do with "choosing to get offended" in those cases because I wasn't even the target.

---

I see no point in living in the past - it does not matter what happened there. It literally does not matter: it is past for a reason. We past by it.

“Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it” -George Santayana quotes (Spanish born American Philosopher, Poet and Humanist who made important contributions to aesthetics, speculative philosophy and literary criticism. 1863-1952)

Forum comments are also a tool for expressing contradictory, hurtful-to-some posts. Should they be removed as well?

Here's the difference:

Without a like button, each post stands on its own. Each person has the same freedom to voice their opinion. It's a level playing field.

But with 7 people 'liking' a post that criticizes or alienates 1 single member, it's no longer a level playing field, but a way to gang up on someone. It gives more power to whatever majority happens to be in power (online) at that particular moment.

And this is not an analogy or an exaggeration: if you go on the internet, you WILL find opposition to any idea, as long as you are consciously looking for it. If you accept this, you will no longer be bothered with it.

I have no problem with that. In fact, I'm a very vocal advocate for the right of each person to freely voice their opinion, without any censorship, as long as basic guidelines are followed.

But that's not what I'm talking about here. I'm talking about a tool that is being used to stack the deck.

[Patrick]

LOL Monica ! You're a good story teller. Really Laughing Out Loud here.

[Oceania]

you got offended on their behalf. same thing. why not just leave it alone when it has nothing to do with you? did someone write to you pleading for help to rescue them from likes? that sounds absurd.

[Monica]

you got offended on their behalf. same thing. why not just leave it alone when it has nothing to do with you? did someone write to you pleading for help to rescue them from likes? that sounds absurd.

I realize this may be hard to understand, for someone who has never been ostracized. Maybe I'm supersensitive to the feelings of others, because I was ostracized as a child.

I don't consider that a weakness. Being ostracized as a child has helped me to feel more compassion for others.

You seem to be telling me to turn off that compassion...just look the other way when I see someone being hurt.

---

LOL Monica ! You're a good story teller. Really Laughing Out Loud here.

I'm glad you enjoyed it! I had fun coming up with the silly names.

I won't be liking your post, though. I'm going to follow your lead and boycott the like button!

[Oceania]

no i think babying people over like buttons is damaging. and i have been ostracized. but i've had to do a lot of self esteem repair because of it and if i had just tried to wrap myself in cotton and never be offended by anyone how could i get grow and get over that ego blow? i don't think you see how compassion sometimes works. sometimes you gotta let people fight their own battles.

[Monica]

i don't think you see how compassion sometimes works.

I guess you're right. I really don't understand compassion. I'm sorry for ever sticking up for anyone when I was a mod. I see now that was stupid of me.

[Oceania]

i'm sorry Monica i didn't mean to imply you don't understand compassion. maybe i just don't get your point on this. i really don't. we're lucky if all we get in life is a few likes on posts that hurt our feelings.

---

and your intent to stick up for people is admirable. but i'm just saying there's caution and there's overcaution.

[Monica]

i'm sorry Monica i didn't mean to imply you don't understand compassion. maybe i just don't get your point on this. i really don't. we're lucky if all we get in life is a few likes on posts that hurt our feelings.

---

and your intent to stick up for people is admirable. but i'm just saying there's caution and there's overcaution.

(See this is my version of 'like' but it applies to only me...no one else can add hearts to my post...it's just me. No one can gang up on anyone with just my single heart.)

Thank you, Oceania.

[Oceania]

i have nothing against hearts

[BrownEye]

i don't think you see how compassion sometimes works. sometimes you gotta let people fight their own battles.

Compassion is what causes us to intervene on someones behalf. We are moving to 4D where compassion is the rule, not 5D where wisdom is the rule. I see some confusing higher density compassion with non intervention. This would be fine if this were 5D.

I am 3D moving in the flow to 4D, I have no imaginations of myself being some 128D entity here just to "believe" in change. I have to make change.

[Oceania]

also, there's nothing wrong with sticking up for people, but i think a like is the same as a post. if someone posts something mean and another person likes it they both show themselves to be mean people equally and that only reflects badly on them, not the person they intend to hurt with it. also a like button goes both ways, it can give someone support. what if missdolly got picked on and someone posted a comment in her defence and everyone like that post, that would let missdolly know she has that much support even from people who don't wanna chime in verbally for some reason, they can still show support with a like.

---

i don't think you see how compassion sometimes works. sometimes you gotta let people fight their own battles.

Compassion is what causes us to intervene on someones behalf. We are moving to 4D where compassion is the rule, not 5D where wisdom is the rule. I see some confusing higher density compassion with non intervention. This would be fine if this were 5D.

I am 3D moving in the flow to 4D, I have no imaginations of myself being some 128D entity here just to "believe" in change. I have to make change.

you misunderstood me. i don't mean we can't intervene at all. i just don't believe censoring a like button is a proper way to do that, and i don't think we should over intervene at every turn. but of course we should intervene when someone needs help.

[Diana]

[quote='Meerie' pid='86534' dateline='1337756512']
How can you know the intent of a person giving the like?
how can you say it is divisive?

The like button as a tool for divisiveness is quite obvious to me at times, and this is just my own perception. Although the intent cannot be known, the result of ostracizing is real.

I don't think this has any place in a community with such high values as Bring4th. I think the negative outweighs the positive. Of course, as with any tool, it's not the fault of the tool. It's just a tool. Like a knife intended to chop vegetables, being used to kill someone. It's not the fault of the knife; the fault is in how it's used. But as long as people are going to use something that was intended as an uplifting thing, in a way to hurt others, then at least we shouldn't make it easy for them by handing over the knife.

I think we should not censor. There may be members that band together against someone (intentionally or unintentionally) without considering the whole picture (I am referring to observations of my own, however fallible they may be), and this is unfortunate on a site which deals with the LOO; however, anyone of a mature and enlightened consciousness will see through this sort of thing. I say let the children play. The adults here can just shrug their shoulders and sigh.

In the (paraphrased) words of George Thorogood, "It don't confront me none."

[Monica]

also, there's nothing wrong with sticking up for people, but i think a like is the same as a post.

In my opinion, what's different about it is that multiple people can add their energy to a single post. Each post doesn't stand on its own.

if someone posts something mean and another person likes it they both show themselves to be mean people equally and that only reflects badly on them, not the person they intend to hurt with it. also a like button goes both ways, it can give someone support. what if missdolly got picked on and someone posted a comment in her defence and everyone like that post, that would let missdolly know she has that much support even from people who don't wanna chime in verbally for some reason, they can still show support with a like.

Yes, and that does happen too. But what I noticed is that, when there was a nasty post, there was very little support of the person getting picked on.

I first saw this happen a couple of years ago, when a member publicly dissected another member. I was stunned and saddened that very few people stood up to it.

So, theoretically, you're right that it can work both ways. I just didn't see that happen in real life. And I don't think it's because most people agreed with the nasty comments in all cases. I suspect it's for the same reason people ignore homeless people on the street - they don't want to "get involved."

[Oceania]

there's nothing wrong with keeping your distance from forum arguments.

i really am sorry Monica you felt so bad about my post that it still bothers you, if you're talking about the post i made where you said i dissected you. i really do regret that now as it brought you pain. i'm far from perfect. most of us are. but i stand by what i said about the button, i don't think likes are a bad thing. they're a neutral thing and we should develop a strong ethical character to use it well. and that will take a few mistakes here and there. i understand we all have triggers where we feel hurt over what someone else thinks is no big deal, but you can't legislate that kind of thing to apply to everyone with a blanket sweep. that's how fascism starts.

---

i mean look at that bill where they wanna make everyone have to post under their own name on the internet. if that happened we'd be so effed to the uck.

[BrownEye]

i mean look at that bill where they wanna make everyone have to post under their own name on the internet. if that happened we'd be so effed to the uck.

It would force people into hiding LMAO! Who would be comfortable with their negative displays of intent if they had less to hide behind?

What you see is the "false messiah" where the governing powers will enforce the golden rule on everyone. Funny as heck.

[Parsons]

I have noticed pretty much every aspect of the Like button discussed here, be they positive or negative. I have come to see it as a truly double edged sword, and I am rather on the fence about wanting it to continue to exist or not.

To review some of the negatives: I have seen very long posts (and made them myself on occasion) get 0 likes because someone more popular than the person making the long post weighed in with their opinion which conflicted with the opinion of the long-poster. Then their "clique" simply likes their post for either: A) They stopped using discernment and decided to just trust the opinion of another blindly or B) The concept introduced was new or "out there" and they agreed with the first opposing opinion that came along or even C) The person was more articulate with expressing their concept in words than the other.

The part that disturbs me the most, really, is people stopping thinking for themselves even in this community (in ANY community).

Then again, I do indeed use the like button when someone says something that I wanted to say but didn't really feel like posting about it. But unless I reply and say this specifically, there is no real way to know why they did this.

People are using the like button for a huge range of concepts, positive and negative. So I don't know if there is much value in the button in it's current representation.

I vote we should make a poll thread (or maybe the mods can do some magic and turn this thread into the poll) and find out what people think about it overall.

But IMO I think we should either flesh out the function more (how about +1 -1 buttons coupled with some kind of "I read this post" button). Or we should just scrap the button entirely.

Note on why I think there should be +1 -1 function in that case: some of us (heck, I'm sure I must be guilty of this at some point) are using the Like button to express their negative opinion of a post by liking a post with a negative opinion of another's post anyways.