forgiveness, what does it really mean

[Lulu]

34.5 Questioner: If an entity develops what is called a karma in an incarnation, is there then programming that sometimes occurs so that he will experience catalyst that will enable him to get to a point of forgiveness thereby alleviating the karma?

Ra: I am Ra. This is, in general, correct. However, both self and any involved other-self may, at any time through the process of understanding, acceptance, and forgiveness, ameliorate these patterns. This is true at any point in an incarnative pattern. Thus one who has set in motion an action may forgive itself and never again make that error. This also brakes or stops what you call karma.


What does forgiveness really mean? For me, until recently, forgiveness comes easy and is almost always unnecessary. RE: I can understand "why" something occurs.

However, I have recently found myself unable to understand a motivation or why, therefore difficlut to truly feel that nice detachment and release which is known as "forgiveness".

Instead it seems I had to forgive myself, but for what?
For attracting the circumstances.
Yet... I could not understand How I attracted such a circumstance either, which keeps me limited in my own trust of self.

How does one Really forgive if one cannot understand? Any thoughts on that?

Lulu

[AnthroHeart]

I remember what Bashar says "the present is not a result of the past, and the future is not the result of the present. In each moment, we are a new person." The things we think we did before, that was a different person. You in this moment never did those things. It's all illusion. So it's easy for me to let go.

This video may help regarding this.

[Charles]

Each act of forgiving is unique. Finding the motivation behind the "why" can be very difficult, but believing that all difficulties are presented to us as learning/soul growth opportunities, does help.

Things are accelerating in this lifetime, opportunities for growth are increasing, because the harvest is near.

The motivation behind the "why" is often a soul contract agreed upon before incarnation. It's fascinating in a way, because our learning and growing involves recognizing our obvious unity as souls ……… and this recognition is often spurred by having to experience its opposite.

The experience of self love (which is the same as love for others), often seems to require some insult to self, and some degradation to pull ourselves out of. One thing to realize is that while we should not judge others, they too do not have the right to judge us. We are, what We Believe We Are, and others opinions only reflect their own mirror.

I was betrayed by my mother, creating in my life a 5 year hibernation of PTSD. The difficult growth of that time has finally become appreciated. Obese, terrified, alone, depressed, suddenly, out of the blue, it dawned on me …… that I am lovable ! ! !
I woke up ! And suddenly there was nothing to forgive my mother for. These days I bless and thank her.

We all need stop thinking "why me?" and start thinking "what can I learn from this?"

Then, the most selfish act (and it is a very self-healing selfish act) of forgiving becomes common sense. Forgiving erases karma, and lifts heavy weights from our shoulders. Forgiving clears minds and offers freedom. You have every right and reason to love yourself, and that self love should help you to forgive self and others. Even if the lesson itself is just to learn to forgive.

A soul knows what growth is needed. Some souls may choose to be born black, female, gay, blind, and midget with body odor. Some souls may instead choose illness, or retardation, or "accidents." All given as loving opportunities.

Maybe you don't understand the "why," but please understand that you have nothing to "blame" yourself for. We live in a Light and Loving Universe.

And also remember, that when you forgive someone, you don't need to tell them that they are forgiven. It really is a delightfully selfish and enlightening thing to do.

[seejay21]

Quote: I want to share with you that you don’t have to worry about any of these things, nor any of the other suffering this world can bring. The only thing we need to do to “win” is to lay your cards face up and say inwardly: “All, all of you players, each other-self, whatever your hand, I love you.”

[Aureus]

Quote: I want to share with you that you don’t have to worry about any of these things, nor any of the other suffering this world can bring. The only thing we need to do to “win” is to lay your cards face up and say inwardly: “All, all of you players, each other-self, whatever your hand, I love you.”

I love that

[JustLikeYou]

As Ra suggests, the first part of the process is "understanding". Then comes acceptance and then forgiveness. If you do not yet understand, you may not yet be ready to forgive yourself. I've seen people who have enormous weights of guilt on their shoulders (and I've been one of them). If these people truly understood what it was they felt guilty about, they would be sent immediately into a tailspin of depression and self-loathing. So it certainly was not my place to inform them about the nature of their lack of forgiveness. A person who cannot yet forgive because she cannot yet understand is a person whose mind is being gently guided into a state of consciousness in which the truth can be received and constructively used. When you are ready to understand, you will. And then you will have the opportunity for acceptance and ultimately forgiveness.

There are some who suggest that the process of Ho'oponopono can be done without knowing what it is you are forgiving yourself and others for. I contend that while high vibration is always beneficial, a full state of forgiveness is not possible without conscious knowledge of what is being forgiven. As Ra says, "Know yourself, accept yourself, become the Creator".

If you feel you are ready to know what you need to forgive, tell Universe that you want to know. You may find one morning that you wake up with a clue.

[native]

I agree that understanding is the key. My take is that we have to also understand that it's all relative. In terms of others, I think the easiest method is to keep in mind that they're simply learning and experiencing themselves. They're going through what they have to go through, and we probably made the same mistakes they did. When you think about it, because we can't remember our past it's pretty silly to get mad at others when possibly we're directly confronting an aspect of ourselves that we perhaps once were. That we're confronting the self is of course the case regardless.

So knowing that you don't know and can't know is another key.

Which is why hating the powers that be is a waste of energy also. What if you were negative in the past? It would make sense that those who abandon the negative path would be required to.. "recapitulate a learning/teaching which is adjudged to be less than perfectly balanced."

[Oldern]

The act of forgiveness, I think, is a reaction that is boiled down to 3 distinct steps.
1) Recognizing what is the "issue" there with the self or the other self.
2) Finding what is really bothering you with that action - and usually, it is because you can find something with that act, thought or belief that represents or represented part of you at one point in your life
3) Accepting it as a valid way of expression, a valid way of life. As in: it is okay to be flawed. We are here to be flawed. We have flaws and we have purity at the same time. We are the paradox. It is alright.

In this act of forgiveness, you accept what is in you as well as what is in them.

There are ways to move this concept to the infinity field, of course. You can lesser and lesser the impact of this by "judging" others, which is nothing but removing yourself from the picture, not even thinking about if you have the trait that you are about to judge. That is one way. The other way is to move a step "above" this, and see how the conflict of archetypes are at work, and find similar difficulties somewhere else. Now you are dealing with the Oversoul itself, and the way how every conflict is born and resolved, simply by doing mystic statistics, hehe

I so wanted to chime in and say my two cents in several different threads in this forum lately. Then I realized that the arguments are only representing the surface of what is really happening - and I could not make a "difference" even if I wanted to with that, so I just started recognizing paralell threads that had the same pattern all over them - and now it does not bother me at all. It is alright to do that.

[Lulu]

thanks for the response everyone. I find most interest and helpfulness in the ones where people share their own experiences openly and as honestly as possible, thanks! I appreciate those who do that.

The last few days I have had two very good releases, and that means crying spells that feel deep and feel like relief.

I have been applying to myself to continually have awareness at when I am closing off, in order to stay as OPEN as possible, to clear what ever is stuck or stagnant.

Symptoms of my own closing down can be easiest discovered by checking into my body continually, and noticing any tension. My shoulders like to tense with my thoughts, listening to others etc. As this happens I ask to release and open myself up again.

[seejay21]

Quote: I want to share with you that you don’t have to worry about any of these things, nor any of the other suffering this world can bring. The only thing we need to do to “win” is to lay your cards face up and say inwardly: “All, all of you players, each other-self, whatever your hand, I love you.”

I love that

Yes. It's a good one! It's from my favorite "Ra quote". I added a little juice to it.

It looks like it is a fav of L/L Research too. It's the first quote on their favorite quote page!

http://www.lawofone.info/favorite_quotes.php

[Zachary]

Forgivness to me is Acceptance.

[Ashim]

Forgivness to me is Acceptance.

If there is need for forgiveness then there must by defintion by something to forgive. I think that the forgiveness preceeds the acceptance. If something is accepted then there is no 'issue' and less distortion.
I would not equate them as being the same but rather steps in a process.

[Lulu]

Sure ashim, forgiveness indicates that there is a condemnation of sorts whether it is to yourself or another. Some of us aren't as perfect as you so we inquire for help to find our way out of that condemnation.

Ashim, If you have never experienced that you are stuck and unable to "forgive" because you have never had the fortunate experience where you cannot understand why something has happened to you, then you would probably not be a good one for passing out advice. For example, I don't usually give friends with a Jewish heritage advice on how to forgive their familes past and recent perps. because I can't imagine having faced that atrocity in my own heritage. I would likely come up sounded uncompassionate and rather shallow to them.

Lulu

[Cyan]

Sure ashim, forgiveness indicates that there is a condemnation of sorts whether it is to yourself or another. Some of us aren't as perfect as you so we inquire for help to find our way out of that condemnation.

Ashim, If you have never experienced that you are stuck and unable to "forgive" because you have never had the fortunate experience where you cannot understand why something has happened to you, then you would probably not be a good one for passing out advice. For example, I don't usually give friends with a Jewish heritage advice on how to forgive their familes past and recent perps. because I can't imagine having faced that atrocity in my own heritage. I would likely come up sounded uncompassionate and rather shallow to them.

Lulu

This resonated strongly with my casus for being here. Thank you Lulu.

---

Quote: I want to share with you that you don’t have to worry about any of these things, nor any of the other suffering this world can bring. The only thing we need to do to “win” is to lay your cards face up and say inwardly: “All, all of you players, each other-self, whatever your hand, I love you.”

I love that

Either that, or lay them face up and say that may the best one win, and never deal anymore cards.

[Lulu]

When another person is Not what I "expected, or wanted them to be" I have learned that if I apply unconditional love to myself and to them that I am then naturally released from the relationship that is not right for me anyways.

For example, in my long-term relationship, I could no longer trust the masculine energy of my partner. He became wishy-washy in our business dealings. Some of his previous choices were not that wise but he could have learned from then. He could not clearly look at himself or the business. Perhaps this was because he wanted the image of success more than integrity of true success itself.

I expressed myself with as open-heart as I knew how offering my intuitive consultation along all the pitfalls I could see coming, I wanted his success for him too! Eventually I felt the only choice was to step in and apply my own masculine skills to the business in hopes of redeeming it. He resented me terribly and it was not worth my effort. I knew if I continued, in power struggle, we would divorce. It was a no win situation so I exited the company and applied unconditional love to myself, and to him. No longer needing myself to be what I didn't want to be to support his failings nor to want him to be any different then he was. In letting go of the idea of him changing, I was able to stay focused on my own true desires, and not needing those to come "through him". The relationship soon ended as peacefully as is possible because it was without strife for change.

Now I deal with this issue on smaller scale. Who do we allow in our presence? I don't want anyone to change so that I can be more comfortable, I just want to ensure my own comfort. I'm referring to the annoying head-sensations that I get when around those who are stressed out or in anxiety. In the past I wanted to help them. Now I am, in my own unconditional love --wanting them to Get Out of my presense. I'm not going to do their work, they can face themselves and sort through and smell their own garbage.

Learning NOT to reflect others is something I am working on, because it would serve ME better. Telling Ashrim off is still not being in unconditional love to myself. I would be better to simply use my typical tactic of ignoring what I see in others that is not mine. I think I did it because I had just spent a good hour this morning in the presence of one who is projecting stress and anxiety and it was especially horrible feeling because I awakened this morning feeling so refreshed and perfectly amazing. I'm not interested in forgiving that person rather I am nearly feeling it is a better choice TO condemn. This encouraging them TO their own work or to remove themselves from my presence. This is why I have been practicing consuming the anxiety to transmute, so they will stay away from me for fear of facing themselves, and yet feel unconditional love.

[Ashim]

Sure ashim, forgiveness indicates that there is a condemnation of sorts whether it is to yourself or another. Some of us aren't as perfect as you so we inquire for help to find our way out of that condemnation.

Dear Lulu,
please do not for one moment think that I am in any way 'perfect'.
I'm just a red haired, blue eyed jew who tries his best to 'walk the talk' - no more and no less.
What do you think I can help you with?

[Lulu]

haha, sorry didn't realize you were a jewish guy...LOL. I am a foot-in-mouth psychic at best.

[Ashim]

haha, sorry didn't realize you were a jewish guy...LOL. I am a foot-in-mouth psychic at best.

All is well Lulu

[Lulu]

Help?

There are lots of kinds of what appear to be help:

There is the "help" where people project their own issues.

There is the "help" where some share an experience of their own, so that someone can broaden (or narrow!) perspective.

There is the kind of "help" where others rescue and save others, while they are drowning themselves.

There is the kind of call for "help" where one asks a question in order to put it out to the universe knowing the answer will most likely come from the clarity of the not "help". LOL (that's most often mine)

There is the "help" that is real, it is a pure mirror. Those on the other end might feel they are being mocked or that the other is being sarcastic to them.

[Cyan]

Help?

There are lots of kinds of what appear to be help:

There is the "help" where people project their own issues.

There is the "help" where some share an experience of their own, so that someone can broaden (or narrow!) perspective.

There is the kind of "help" where others rescue and save others, while they are drowning themselves.

There is the kind of call for "help" where one asks a question in order to put it out to the universe knowing the answer will most likely come from the clarity of the not "help". LOL (that's most often mine)

There is the "help" that is real, it is a pure mirror. Those on the other end might feel they are being mocked or that the other is being sarcastic to them.

Exactly. =) Thank you for clarifying it again.

[Charles]

Lulu wrote:

For example, I don't usually give friends with a Jewish heritage advice on how to forgive their familes past and recent perps. because I can't imagine having faced that atrocity in my own heritage. I would likely come up sounded uncompassionate and rather shallow to them.

So, FYI, I'm a Jew too, and as Ashim wrote, All Is Well Lulu.

I cannot speak for all Jews, but I don't feel that we as a group spend all of our time remembering the atrocity. When I think of it, I think about those souls who turned to their religion, and became more prayerful during the horror .... and of those who lost all faith, became angry with God, and dropped all prayer during the horror.

And I've wondered, where I would have fit in if I were there (?) I'd like to think that I would have chosen the comfort of That One, but I don't know.

I too have decided to avoid those consistently negative people, because their energy can be strong, and it hurts me too much, and I don't feel the power to help, or to change, them. But I do send them love and wish them well.

That has Nothing to do with forgiving. If someone self-destructs, there is nothing for me to forgive them for. And in a way, we've all been there. How many wrong and self destructive decisions have we all made?

It's called learning and growing. Forgiving yourself at such times is appropriate.

[Lulu]

So, FYI, I'm a Jew too, and as Ashim wrote, All Is Well Lulu.

oh geez, well charles, haha, it was just meant to be a little example. you know...I never have understood the word jew maybe you can put something to it. Is it really the only race that is also a religion (?!) and what a curse it seems to have been tagged a choosen One.

If I personally were a "jew" I think I would instead make a point to say my heritage is from Israel (or wherever it really is from) in order to un-include the religious aspect as much as possible, unless I really liked the jewish religious aspect, then I would find a word for that and be those two things. I don't say I'm a protestant Dutch. I mean wtf, LOL. Because it's old stuff!

My parents were in the Netherlands during the occupation, so (they/I) can relate to the degree of what it might feel like to be hungary, scared and I guess to also yearn and be excited for the savior when it finally showed up (today I think is their Liberation day).

[Ashim]

I offer the folowing Lulu:
ISIS-RA-EL

[Lulu]

But I do send them love and wish them well.

That has Nothing to do with forgiving. If someone self-destructs, there is nothing for me to forgive them for. And in a way, we've all been there. How many wrong and self destructive decisions have we all made?

It's called learning and growing. Forgiving yourself at such times is appropriate.

self-destruct --LOL. totally!

I am at the point I do not want to feel any sort of love towards them nor in the moment wish them any sort of wellness unless I can see, they actually have the brevity to feel some truth and that they will instead at least try to express from the heart.

Instead they continue projecting all their fear energy unknowingly such as needing approval of others, complaining (needing to be heard) without wanting truth, complaining about how much they work (but being willing to sacrifice so they can buy more new junk), being jealous of others...etc. All the while trying desperately to hang onto the idea that they think they are the opposite.

I don't really want to love and wish them well anymore...placating them into continuing along in their conflicting choices.
no, not when it affects ME
--because we are indeed, ONE.

Lulu

---

I offer the folowing Lulu:
ISIS-RA-EL

hmmmm... are you trying to be mysterious or secretive or just seem like you know something that the rest of us don't or do you actually know something and can you then elaborate?

...I see there are 3 egyptian gods are you indicating they formed it (what a mess, hangs head in shame). And if "they" invested "there" where did the other egyptian gods such as Ka go?

---

This brings to mind one of the things I find rather pathetic for grown-ups to still be doing. It is what I refer to as "new age COOL".

[Charles]

I don't feel that Jews are a race of people. There are black Jews, and Ashim is red haired and blue eyed (I'm brown and brown, my father was blond and blue.)

The part about being "chosen" is one (of the many ways) others have chosen to use to hate us. In the Torah (in one of the first 5 books in the Old Testament) God explains how that is. If you like, I'll find exactly where for you.
God gave us many rules to follow, and said that if all (ALL !!!) of us follow all (ALL !!!) such rules, then we are chosen to be well respected and envied. Our crops will always grow, we will be comfortable and healthy. If not, then we would be hated and scorned. Guess how that worked out.

I'm delighted to be a Jew, even though I've created my own understanding of Truth, and my own habits, I'm still a Jew. I feel no need or reason to omit the "religious aspect as much as possible." I don't understand why you say that (?)

When I was young, the Rabbi would come to our home to visit, and my father and the Rabbi would spend hours arguing (it seemed to me) about Judaism. I couldn't understand that, but now I realize that that is one of the things I most love about being a Jew. We are not only allowed to disagree, we are encouraged to think for ourselves, and disagree (actually discuss).

The Rabbi is not our leader, and we have no Pope. No one individual tells us how to interpret the Torah, we have and are expected to use our own minds. In fact the Talmud is a collection (from many hundreds of years) of different Rabbis giving their differing opinions.

The only other religion I know of, that also contains this same wisdom, is Buddhism. The Buddha told his followers not to believe a word he says, but to instead go and find out for themselves.

If you've any questions for me, feel free to ask. I feel that there is only One truth, and that That One can't be small enough to care if we crawl, or dance, or kneel, or doven, or circle the Kaaba, or lie prone. Our hearts and minds matter, and are known. No one religion wins out, We Are All One.

Loving and wishing them well, has nothing to do with keeping them the same. I love them enough to wish and pray for their growth. And that growth Is a loving and positive frame of mind.

Jews, by the way, don't always in all ways agree with Israeli politics, no more than all Americans agree with our countries politics. I imagine that goes for all countries.

I was taught that Israel is pronounced Yis Roy Al, but Im fine with ISIS-RA-EL too. There are things I just don't care about.

[Lulu]

I don't feel that Jews are a race of people. There are black Jews, and Ashim is red haired and blue eyed (I'm brown and brown, my father was blond and blue.)

that confirms the perplexity. why do Jews say they are jews but at the same time claim to not subscribe to their religion. They do seem to be proud of being "a Jew" as it's seems to be something they like to announce. I feel weird saying Jew, to me it's like saying "an Oriental". It's like an old outdated word that comes with sterotypes and has seen it's share of abuse.

---

God gave us many rules to follow, and said that if all (ALL !!!) of us follow all (ALL !!!) such rules...

...but now I realize that that is one of the things I most love about being a Jew. We are not only allowed to disagree, we are encouraged to think for ourselves, and disagree (actually discuss).

hmmmmm well sounds like it was really opposition and intellectual or religious based dogma as a competition, aka "arguing" to me and not really discussing philosophy to better oneself.

and the irony of course: Is that thinking for oneself/one selves got you/them into the trouble apparently.

You really still dig on that god do you? What is it that Really makes you proud of being "a Jew"?

[JustLikeYou]

Who do we allow in our presence? I don't want anyone to change so that I can be more comfortable, I just want to ensure my own comfort. I'm referring to the annoying head-sensations that I get when around those who are stressed out or in anxiety. In the past I wanted to help them. Now I am, in my own unconditional love --wanting them to Get Out of my presense. I'm not going to do their work, they can face themselves and sort through and smell their own garbage.

This reminds me of experiences my wife and I have recently had.

We do not have deep roots in any of the towns we've lived in since we've been married, so we never really had much in the way of a community. This is an absence we both feel. When we underwent our respective spiritual awakenings (yes we were married before we had awakened), we began to open our hearts. We offered compassion and love to all who sought it. This was an important stage, but eventually we both became doormats for many people with problems of their own that they didn't want to solve.

Our most recent experience was with a co-worker (we work in the same place) who "fell in love" with both of us. She had all manner of wild fantasies about her relationships with each of us. But what ultimately mattered more than anything else was that she was not willing to do her own spiritual work. After being open and compassionate with her, we both learned that it was time to be disciplined. Years ago, we had to be mindful about making sure we were acting in love and not in fear. Now we had to learn how to be mindful about making sure we were not giving our energy to someone who would only waste it. We had to keep an eye out for her every ego-driven habit and actively choose not to give in to what it was she wanted. She would give us gifts, try to be as sweet as possible, all in the hopes that she could secure a permanent place in our lives. She would crave physical affection from me (she was quite flirtatious) and she would ask my wife for every single little detail of the mundane daily happenings in our lives.

This was obviously a lesson in wisdom. We needed to balance our previously learned compassion with the discipline of wisdom, the discipline to say "no, not this." And we always tried to do it as gently, kindly and compassionately as possible.

Fortunately, Universe is kind to those who are mindful. We both know that the operations of Universe are relatively simple: we were being presented with a lesson in discipline, a lesson in wisdom, and if we chose to learn the lesson, the catalyst for the lesson would dissolve. Of course, we always hoped that this woman would have a stroke of insight and discover that the source of her loneliness was within her and not outside of her. But we knew that if that didn't happen, she would eventually be removed from our sphere of activity.

Eventually, she demonized us in her own mind. I don't know what she thinks of us now, but I do know that we no longer work with her, so all is well. We did our best and Universe rewarded us by removing the catalyst.

One thing that always helped both of us was to examine the ego-driven actions which repelled us in her. When we examined the things she would do, we always found microcosms of those habits in ourselves. And it always ended up being that the discipline of wisdom demanded us to face those microcosms in ourselves. Sarah had a deep longing for close friendship with another woman and this was being shown to her in a highly unbalanced other-self. I, on the other hand, have always been a big flirt. But I had to learn to face this part of myself rather than act it out in order to be disciplined with her.

Hope this "helps".

[Ashim]

I offer the folowing Lulu:
ISIS-RA-EL

hmmmm... are you trying to be mysterious or secretive or just seem like you know something that the rest of us don't or do you actually know something and can you then elaborate?

...I see there are 3 egyptian gods are you indicating they formed it (what a mess, hangs head in shame). And if "they" invested "there" where did the other egyptian gods such as Ka go?

---

This brings to mind one of the things I find rather pathetic for grown-ups to still be doing. It is what I refer to as "new age COOL".
[/quote]

I am not trying to be anything. I find it interesting that you form a distinction between myself and yourself whilst adding 'the rest of us' to your camp.
Do I know something? Yes.
What should I elaborate on? Can you be specific.
Your last comment is confusing.

[Diana]

This brings to mind one of the things I find rather pathetic for grown-ups to still be doing. It is what I refer to as "new age COOL".

What do you mean by this?

[Charles]

Ashim and Diana, you are both kinder and more patient than I am.

I did begin to try to respond to Lulu, but then I erased all of it. It's time and work, and worth it only when read and understood. My decision was not worth it.

All is well, and we have no problem Lulu, but I've decided that I'm not your teacher.

---

There is nothing to forgive, but if there were, you are well and completely forgiven. Many Blessings