In regards to eating meat

[βαθμιαίος]

I feel at this point my participation has become nonproductive. I feel I have been repeatedly ignored and misrepresented. I don't know how to rectify this, other than repeat continually.

I think everyone who has participated in this thread feels that way or has felt that way at one point or another.

Wouldn't it be nice if we could take this thread and make a huge bonfire out of it while we all joined hands and meditated or sang or danced or invoked fourth density or something?

Let it heal our community instead of fracturing it?

[Monica]

Too bad I now am responsible for going back and telling those kids that their ice cream making caused Gaia to suffer. Kind of takes the joy out of the ice cream...

Well I realize you're kidding (even without smileys!), but I have to say, this is where wisdom and discretion comes in. I would never dream of squashing some kids' joy about ice cream.

There's a time and a place to speak up.

Like in discussion threads devoted to the topic...

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But Tenet, why do you think anyone is telling anyone what they should feel?

Not once has anyone said "You SHOULD feel guilty." Not once.

People are feeling guilt and anger, and blaming it on the vegetarians.

It's not our fault. The meat-eaters are feeling whatever they're feeling, for whatever reason. They should look within, to find the reason, instead of blaming us.

Becoming aware of the ramifications of eating meat might involve feelings, if one opened their heart to the animals. I think the advocates of a plant-based diet here are just trying to bring awareness.

Yes. And we keep trying to get the conversation back to the animals. It's about the animals, dammit! But the meat-eaters keep bringing the conversation back to themselves.

[Pablísimo]

Greetings, Brothers & Sisters of Bring4th. Whatever you had for lunch today, I hope you are well and whole on this fine Spring Wednesday! Namaste, all.

I have some comments to add, but I'd like to start off with a personal clarification. I am a vegetarian and have been so for a long time. Thus, I have made my choice in regards to diet and of course have what I consider to be good reasons for that choice.

But let me make this absolutely crystal clear: IN NO WAY DOES ME BEING VEGETARIAN MAKE ME SUPERIOR TO MEAT EATERS AT ALL!!!! The choice to eat meat or not is a complex personal decision involving economic, practical, and spiritual considerations. My subjective, non-scientific, biased, strictly personal OPINION is that the vegetarian choice is best for me. What's best for all of you, is your own decision. Each should follow their own heart, free will, and particular understanding in this sphere, and I am in no position to judge anyone else for what they eat.

If you feel guilt or anger at other people's opinions of diet, then it may be that these emotions are coming from within rather than being imposed upon you from without. No'one is judging other PEOPLE here, we are discussing our opinions on the dietary choice. It's NOT personal, though for some reason it seems to be taken that way.

What's not so clear to me is how one should best discuss what one believes to be a superior CHOICE without coming across as feeling superior to people with a different opinion. For a non-charged example, I have recently gotten into beekeeping. I personally believe that using a "top bar" hive is a superior choice to a "conventional" Langstroth/National hive design. The fact that I choose top bar beekeeping doesn't make me superior to other beekeepers, or that they don't care about their bees. I just feel it's best for me and I have my reasons. So how would I go about explaining my reasons for the opinon that Top Bar hives are a better method in a discussion forum on hives, without sounding like I think I'm a better beekeeper because of my choice? Maybe the meat eaters could help the vegetarians with more effective ways at communication on this point. How to discuss something that one subjectively believes is a superior CHOICE while still making it very clear that that choice does not make the PERSON superior.

I believe that the totality of your Being is not decided by your diet; it is instead the sum total of all your qualities, choices, thoughts, and deeds that define your very Being in this life. I know many of you eat meat and yet are absolutely wonderful, warm, spiritual, loving, evolved, and kind individuals.

What I don't understand is why vegetarians describing their reasoning in a vegetarian thread is taken as a personal attack so frequently. I've witnessed an almost Herculean effort by them to speak about the general concepts instead of specific people. To discuss GENERAL ideas on this dietary question rather than attack meat eaters. These 'vegan fanatics' may attack in the wider world somewhere, but I just haven't seen much of it here on this thread.

In my daily life, I almost never bring up vegetarianism or meat eating. I concern myself with my own lunch and my own choices, and let others concern themselves with their own. I don't insist on particular restaurants or special treatment, and I don't try to start debates with meat eaters. I carry a couple of snack bars with me in case I find myself in a situation where there is no available vegetarian food, but that rarely happens. Most of the time, my dietary choice is a non-issue. I've had coworkers I worked with for years who were startled to find out I was a veggie -- BECAUSE I don't make a big deal out of it.

If someone ASKS me about my reasons in an off-handed way, I generally tell them that my personal, subjective opinion is that it is the best choice for me, but I don't judge others who don't agree. I leave it at that, and most of the time, that's enough. I try my best to just to not engage with those meat eaters who are itching for a debate and making snide comments, nor do I start them myself.

However, in those rare situations where someone genuinely wants to discuss the issue in depth with an open mind, I do feel like it is appropriate to share my understanding, and in great detail, if that is what is requested. I feel the same way about many other topics. If your input is requested, then give it. Otherwise, keep your opinions to yourself!

Because I follow this philosophy, I am perplexed by the recent comments on this thread. I thought the purpose of this thread was to actually dig into the pros and cons, the reasons and wherefores of meat eating vs vegetarianism. Of course, this is a subjective topic like so many others, but we all know that going in. We're all biased and yet this thread seems to be one of those rare times when it IS appropriate to share our biased, subjective opinions with eachother. If you randomly start criticizing my dietary choice in a restaurant, that's not acceptable. But if I'm in a room with a sign on the door clearly marked "Dietary discussion forum", then it is perfectly reasonable for you to give your opinion, and for me to share mine.

Here again, the discussion is over the choice, not the person making that choice and I don't think any vegetarian on this thread (certainly not me, at least) believes that they are morally superior simply because they don't eat meat. I have been brought to tears by the beauty, wisdom, and profundity in posts by Tenet, by Austin, by Ankh, by Shemaya, and others. Seriously, you guys are, at MINIMUM, our spiritual equals, if not our betters.

Yet the purpose of this thread is to discuss the veg/meat topic, is that not the case? These arguments are happening in a DISCUSSION FORUM in a thread SPECIFICALLY created to discuss the topic of meat eating from a spiritual perspective. They aren't all over the forum or in a thread that doesn't match the stated topic. Anyone who does not wish to discuss the issue can simply ignore this thread and participate in the myriad of other spiritual topics we discuss on a daily basis.

Please, help me understand... why does it matter if some people believe vegetarianism is better and some people believe meat eating is better? Isn't it a given that we all have different opinions? Why does it have to be personal? I thought we were discussing GENERAL concepts and OPINIONS on diet in the spiritual space.

I feel like this conversation has helped me to truly understand that I'm not superior because of my dietary choice. My compassion and understanding have grown immensely as a result of these difficult conversations. I am grateful to everyone on both sides for their input. It's actually helped me better understand my own reasoning and be far, far, far less judgemental towards others with a different perspective. The only thing I am doing now is listening to my heart and inner guidance. If your own tells you something different, then fine, then take a different path. But this thread is specifically to discuss the veg vs meat CHOICE. If discussing it offends you or brings out emotional catalyst that you don't like, then it may not be wise to continue reading it. However, if you wish to discuss, debate, and dissect this issue, then this is the perfect thread to do it in. And who knows, it may be that we can find some common ground, such as supporting sustainable and humane, non-factory farming operations as Austin has so eloquently advocated.

I do feel that any of us having extremely strong emotional reactions to other's posts, no matter which side of the issue we fall on, do need to take some personal responsibility. Our emotional reactions are not the fault of the "other". If one is secure in their own convictions and at peace with their own choices, then other people's opinions won't bother you, even if you disagree with them.

Finally, let's please remember that we are all Brothers and Sisters, aspects of the Creator, just discussing various aspects of the Creation we find ourselves in. Who cares if we disagree? The fine folks participating in this thread devoted to the topic are just sharing their opinions, and each and every one of you are wonderful, beautiful, loving, kind, and EQUAL other-selves.

Thank you all for this beautiful tapestry of perspectives and people. It is a privilege and a joy to participate here.

Love to all

[Monica]

You will save $$ on your grocery bill, and maybe even on healthcare costs long-term.

I did not. On contrary, it was more expensive for me.

I'm having a difficult time comprehending that. Meat is more expensive than eggs, rice, beans, tofu, etc. The fruits and veggies expenditure would be the same. How is it possible that you spent more?

The only way, would be if you were relying on packaged, specialty foods. Tofu might not be available everywhere, but it isn't necessary anyway. I don't know of any place in the world where eggs, rice and beans cost more than meat.

I am genuinely curious. Would you like to share how a vegetarian diet was more expensive for you?

It was true for me. I was vegetarian for many years. I started to be a vegatarian in my teens, and even thought that the ultimate thing would be to not to eat anything that is living in the nature, but what nature has to offer, such as fruits, some seeds, nuts etc.

Ah! So you were a raw vegan? If so, that would explain it. Most definitely, being raw vegan does require more education and, initially, time for food prep.

When I said "vegetarian diet is cheaper" I was referring to lacto-ovo, not raw vegan. That might explain it.

When I got pregnant, I had to start to eat the meat again.

If you were trying to do raw vegan, then I can understand that. Pregnant women do pull it off, but it is more challenging. Personally I wouldn't attempt raw vegan when pregnant, simply because nutritional and caloric needs are greatly increased, and because I'm not willing to be a pioneer in that respect. After more women have successfully done it, I'd be open to doing it (if I were still having babies, which I'm not of course!).

But plenty of vegan women have had healthy pregnancies and beautiful, healthy babies. That is common knowledge now, but when I was pregnant many years ago, I didn't have enough knowledge about being a vegan when pregnant. So I decided to err on the side of caution and started eating eggs and cheese again, temporarily. I also drank raw goat's milk.

I can understand that you did what you had to do at the time, based on the level of knowledge and support you had at the time. I had a friend who insisted on being raw vegan when pregnant, despite feeling hungry all the time. I strongly advised her against it, even though I was moving in the direction of raw vegan myself. I told her it wasn't worth potentially harming her baby! She didn't listen to me and both her babies had problems.

To me, this was the height of irresponsibility. Even if she had followed Tenet's philosophy of "listening to your body" she would have known that her body needed something! Quite simply, if the body is being nourished, it wouldn't be hungry all the time!

This was 20 years ago, when there was very little knowledge about the raw vegan diet while pregnant. Even now, some of the raw vegan gurus say, do not attempt while pregnant! It's just too new, and it's irresponsible to risk the baby's health with a new diet that hasn't been proven to be adequate for pregnant women.

To be clear, I am referring to raw vegan, NOT vegan or lacto-ovo vegetarian, both of which have been proven quite adequate for pregnant and lactating women.

You can speak for yourself, but not for other people.

I'm not speaking for anyone. Um...did you miss the part about me never assessing anyone else's diet?

I made a general statement. In my experience, meat costs more than eggs, cheese, rice and beans, so logically that means a veg diet is less expensive. Or, at the very least, certainly not more expensive!

As to 'more difficult' I just started a new thread, outlining how easy it is to go veg.

If you disagree with my assessment, the only explanation I can think of would be that eggs, rice and beans cost more than meat in your area. If you tell me that, then I will stand corrected.

But I will be very surprised, since, historically, rice and beans were considered 'peasant food' while meat was more readily available to the wealthy. I learned that in history class in junior high school. Still, maybe times have changed and costs are different where you live. So I am interested in your response.

How is that speaking for anyone else?

Perhaps this is what causing friction, harshness, and rough and tough tone in this thread? I am not talking about you specifically, because as Tenet pointed out, this is a group energy.

Maybe not, but the implication from you and the other meat-eaters is that the vegetarians are the ones with the 'harsh tone' even though we've all been stepping on eggshells this whole time, while the meat-eaters have generally been the ones calling us names (like zealot, fanatic, etc.) yet they are the ones complaining about us.

What I can say is that no matter how much encouragement and messages of self respect I may try to bring, if other selves would rather believe in messages of guilt, disempowerment and disencouragement - then it is their difficult lessons that they are very hard trying to learn, Monica. Their choices will not stop me though from trying to bring these messages over and over again. Words have power, and we can either use them to create walls, or bridges. Some services/words that we bring to others are disempowering and discouraging, and not seeing the human behind the message they are written to, but are addressed to invisible readers; and some services/words are empowering that human being they are written to, and encouriging him/her.

We're not posting any messages of guilt or disempowerment. We're simply stating facts, and backing them up with documentation. Those slaughterhouse videos I posted? Those are factual. Those things really did happen, and really do happen on a daily basis.

It would be the same if I posted a video about starving children. Would say I was "imposing guilt" and "disempowering them" if I did that?

I would rather not give *any* messages *at all* that would bring people guilt, as I believe it to be a negative catalyst, that is already provided in abundance upon this planet.

So, are you saying that if you knew about some horrible injustice, you wouldn't tell anyone? Let's say, for example, you knew for a fact that a neighbor was running a human trafficking operation. He was kidnapping children and selling them into prostitution. You even had photos of those children being tortured.

But telling the authorities would upset your other neighbors, because the perpetrator was well-regarded in the community.

Would you not tell the authorities anyway? Or would you keep your mouth shut, because the news was "disempowering" and "negative" and might produce "feelings of guilt" in the neighbors who had been looking the other way?

Note: Before anyone jumps on me for this analogy, let me be clear that I am NOT comparing eating animals to a child trafficking ring!!!! So please don't even go there. I am simply illustrating an example of something that most people would care about.

[godwide_void]

I personally find that what I consume has not added or detracted from my spiritual seeking whatsoever. I mean, I've become much more sensitive to what I eat now and how it affects me; certain, heavier foods seem to slow me down given the energy expended trying to digest. When I go for a while without eating, drinking only water or consuming only raw foods (vegetables, fruits, either whole or in juiced form) I have much more energy and feel alot more lively and active.

I've begun developing an aversion to meat on my own recognizance however, partially because I have been told by a guy I knew who was heavily into the raw food diet that due to certain factors and circumstances some animals are subjected to, such as living in highly stressful environments, that hormones related to fear and anxiety are produced. These hormones apparently remain in the animal at the moment of death and beyond and are actually transmitted to us upon ingestion of the meat of these dead animals. This is plausible to me, in that these traces of consciousness and vibration are exchanged and imparted to us when we assimilate them and I've noticed that there's times I don't feel as good as I should for lack of a better term after consuming meat or food with not too much nutrients in them.

However, most of my life I was (and still am to a slight degree) a 'whatever' eater. This has changed at this point in my life, but I don't see myself adhering to a strict style of dieting or food consumption anytime soon. Regardless of whether I chow down on a plate of nachos or chicken or Hot Pockets, it makes no difference on my established divine connection.

People are welcome to do what they see fit. I personally don't think anyone's food consumption plays any factor in determining their character or how I relate to them or view them as. The physical body needs nourishment, we can't avoid that. How one chooses to do so is entirely up to them and the perceptions of others should have no bearing upon this. Regardless of whether one gorges themselves at an all-you-can-eat buffet or dines modestly at a vegetarian restaurant or chows their way to morbid obesity at McDonald's, it doesn't change the fact that that individual is Creator.

[Monica]

I am in agreement with meat- eating, as is Ra, the Law of One and Q'uo and that has already been extensively covered so I won't provide quotes.

If you knew that had already been extensively covered, then I don't understand how you can say Ra, the Law of One and Q'uo favor meat-eating. Nowhere have they ever said that.

I have a gluten allergy and anemia,

I am gluten intolerant too. You're right; that does present a challenge. It also eliminate many meat-based foods too, like hamburgers, tacos, pizza, sandwiches, etc.

Anemia can be easily addressed with vegetarian sources, fyi. I've dealt with that too.

If I were to become fanatic about it, then I'd have to figure out what to feed my pets.

It needn't be an "all or nothing" thing. While some vegetarians do buy vegan food for their pets, most don't. (Again, it's not a game of "who's the purest of us all")

It's easy to be vegetarian if you only have yourself to think about, but it isn't in a social context when you are the only veggie and you are coming from a Christian/ republican oriented mindset of your community.

Oh, I can totally relate! There is no question that it's easier when you're single. I was doing raw vegan when I met my hubby, and he was still eating meat. We compromised in the middle, with middle-of-the-road lacto-ovo vegetarian meals prepared at home. We never bought any meat, except for his occasional cans of tunafish.

He respect my vegetarianism, and I was very grateful that he didn't buy meat and cook it at home, smelling up the house. So I cheerily made him tunafish sandwiches whenever he asked for it.

When we ate out, he usually got chicken or fish. (He had already given up red meat at the time I met him.)

We agreed to raise our son vegetarian, so after he was born, there was no more meat of any sort in the house (except dried kitty kibble). Who is now grown, and has never had a bite of meat in his entire life. (by the way)

We coexisted like that for many years, until my hubby finally decided to go 100% vegetarian. And guess what was the trigger for this commitment? This thread!!!

Not what *I* wrote, because he's heard all that before, many times. What the meat-eaters wrote. That is why he suddenly decided to give up the once-weekly shrimp and go totally veg.

Ironic, eh?

But I do get your point, and can appreciate the challenges. We live in Texas - cattle country. My family are all Republican, Christian meat-eaters. But they already think I'm weird anyway, so this didn't really add much more weirdness.

Much harder to deal with were the co-workers, who teased me mercilessly! I was their plaything, the subject of ridicule. They told jokes about "Monica mowing their lawn" and other such meanness.

That happened as recently as 6 years ago.

Family, not so much trouble. Remember I said I went back to eating meat for a couple of years? Well, during that time, when my hubby and I went to my family Christmas gathering, I fretted about what my family would think, when I ate the turkey. I considered just not eating it, so I could continue my 'vegetarian' persona, and not 'lose face.'

My husband never cares about what other people think, so he advised me to just eat it and not care if anyone questioned me. I dreaded having to explain to them that I'd had health problems, because surely they were going to pounce on that as 'proof' that a vegetarian diet wasn't healthy! (In case anyone is joining this conversation late in the game, eating meat for 2 years didn't help with the health issues at all, so I went back to being vegetarian and found the solution a few years later.)

Well, guess what? No one even noticed.

Now, if I go to a family gathering, I simply eat the mashed potatoes and veggies. They are distasteful, since my sister uses unhealthy margarine and her idea of 'veggie' is opening a can of peas, but it doesn't matter. I am there to visit family, not eat. I eat something beforehand, and that way I can just nibble a bit and no one notices.

I have a niece and nephew who were brought up in a hunter-bullrider family. Guess what? The niece recently wrote me on FB asking for vegetarian recipes! She's in her 40s now so apparently she has some health challenges. Cutting back on meat is not just more acceptable nowadays - it's getting downright trendy!

---

Vegetarians who shut up about their chocies and are supportive to everyone who wishes to reduce their use of animal products, and non judgmental to everyone else do exist.

I fear though that this topic is representative for the majority of us. I think the best we can do is ignore it in the hope it goes away.

So are you saying you think this should be a taboo topic? That if someone starts a discussion about eating animals, in a discussion forum, the vegetarians should not participate?

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Okay. You win.

I must say at this point that for some reason, I feel utterly misrepresented (as a vegetarian trying to discuss in this thread). I am not taking anything personally, just generally as sides do seem to have formed.

I have made monumental efforts to discuss this subject objectively. It has been said that being encouraging would be better than instilling guilt. Instilling guilt was never my intention, and I will point out again: guilt comes from within, not without. Just as you cannot disempower someone else.

Let me just say that I did not think it was necessary to treat you all with kid gloves. You are not the sleeping masses. I thought we could discuss this subject without the typical hyper-sensitive reactions. I apologize now, for any insensitivity, or hurts I may have caused.

I feel at this point my participation has become nonproductive. I feel I have been repeatedly ignored and misrepresented. I don't know how to rectify this, other than repeat continually.

I want to thank those for their willingness to discuss the topic. I have nothing more to say at this point. I may jump back in at a later time perhaps. I wish you all the very best.

DITTO for me. That is exactly how I feel. And DITTO to Pablisimo also! Well said! I agree 100%! and in fact have said those exact things, many times over, in this thread over the past 3 years.

Diana, maybe you and I should just leave the discussion altogether. Apparently, that is the only thing that will satisfy them.

When we both leave, they'll likely have a party, celebrating, and commiserating about how awful and judgmental we were, and blaming us for their own feelings.

But that's ok. The thread will remain, for the benefit of any members who might stumble upon it, and might actually READ the damn thing, from the beginning, instead of jumping in at the end.

Carry on.

NOTE to any newcomers: I am leaving this thread for the time being, though I reserve the right to hop back in at any time if I decide to, even if it's 5 minutes from now. So if Shemaya or anyone else now posts quotes from Ra or Q'uo regarding meat, claiming that they prove Ra/Q'uo are in favor of eating meat, PLEASE go back and read the entire thread, before forming an opinion! That is, IF you truly want to know the full picture of Ra's and Q'uo's stance on this.

The reason I say this is that, at first glance, a couple of the quotes do appear that way, but they were directed specifically to Carla, as a direct answer to a specific question about her particular condition. When a more general question was asked, Ra responded "animal foods to the extent necessary for the individual metabolism" - deliberately leaving out the word 'meat.' Keep in mind that animal products can mean eggs and dairy, not just meat.

And I leave you all with 2 questions:

1. Why are you (the meat-eaters who are complaining) making this about YOU, instead of about the animals?

and

2. Are you truly eating ONLY the animal products necessary for the individual metabolism?

[Oldern]

I just deleted a wall of text...I do not want to pick a fight with anyone.

Just one thing, Monica: you are mistaken if you believe that vegan eating is cheaper than meat eating just cause it is for you. If it is so IN YOUR AREA, well, good for you! But here? In Hungary, for example? No way in hell. You are looking at twofold price increase per meal if you want the same variety of eating without meat. At least.

Eggs? 10 eggs now cost around 2 euro. That is 50dkg+ filled turkey/chicken meat (without bone).
The only way one can say he is vegetarian and lives cheaper than a meat eater if he takes out the meat from the sandwitch (yaay? pure carbs?), eats only brown rice for dinner, and adds cheese instead of meat on the table, but that is really a question whether it has become healthier, or just more carb-based. If you are buying beans, soya, etc, then it is astraight-up cost increase.

So personally what I am doing is adding things like sunflower seed instead of breakfast (which is the equivalent of a light fasting at the end of the day), and replacing meat in the dinner with cheese or mushrooms. If eggs would go back to ~1Euro per 10, I would be so, so happy. But they are not -.-

Edit: also, just one tiny thing. If meat eating would be such a serious spiritual crime, at least Ra/Q'uo would have said that it is ILL-ADVISED to eat so.
But instead, I think it is up to every single individual to realize when they do not need heavy food anymore. Simple as that. Freedom of choice. Higher frequency is not "Better" frequency, as one would be led to believe based on this thread. And if it is better frequency, should we go parading around, telling everyone to start reading Law of One instead of morning papers? Right...

[Monica]

I just deleted a wall of text...I do not want to pick a fight with anyone.

Just one thing, Monica: you are mistaken if you believe that vegan eating is cheaper than meat eating just cause it is for you.

I will answer this since you specifically addressed me.

I didn't say vegan eating is cheaper. I said vegetarian eating is cheaper. (The term vegetarian just means no meat...it can include eggs and dairy.)

Are you saying 2 eggs costs more than a serving of chicken or cow meat? Are you saying a serving of rice and beans costs more than a serving of chicken or cow meat?

If that is what you're saying, then I stand corrected. Surprised, but corrected.

If that is not what you're saying, then please clarify.

Eggs? 10 eggs now cost around 2 euro. That is 50dkg+ filled turkey/chicken meat (without bone).

But you aren't comparing equivalent serving sizes. No one is going to eat 10 eggs at one time. Usually it's only 2 eggs in 1 meal. Maybe 3, tops.

The only way one can say he is vegetarian and lives cheaper than a meat eater if he takes out the meat from the sandwitch (yaay? pure carbs?), eats only brown rice for dinner, and adds cheese instead of meat on the table, but that is really a question whether it has become healthier, or just more carb-based. If you are buying beans, soya, etc, then it is astraight-up cost increase.

Here in the US, we can buy a bag of pinto beans for about $2. Not sure how many cups in a bag, but I think about 8. We use 1 cup of pinto beans to cook a large pot of beans. The 4 of us eat those beans over the next few days. We get about 10 meals out of that single pot of beans.

A single serving of meat would cost around $2, I think (not sure - it's been a long time). Maybe a can of tuna might be less...not sure. But even if we only got 4 cups out of that $2 bag, that is still 40 servings of beans...for $2 + a few cents for the water used to cook them.

I can't fathom anyone getting meat cheaper than that, but if you can please explain!

Are you calculating the price per meal, or the whole bag of beans, when you say beans cost more than meat?

Edit: also, just one tiny thing. If meat eating would be such a serious spiritual crime, at least Ra/Q'uo would have said that it is ILL-ADVISED to eat so.

Not necessarily. Remember, we have a veil, and the whole purpose of the veil is so that we figure it out on our own.

Also, there are a lot of things Ra didn't mention. They didn't say anything about stealing, rape or murder either.

[Oldern]

Well, 10 eggs compared to 50dkg meat was my base because 10 eggs is basically 2 meal for 2 if we do nothing else.
The meat is the same (with rice, but that is like 0.15$ per serving if we boil it down to that), 50dkg lasts for us for 2 meals with added rice. But eggs alone are rather plain, so one needs...something to go along with it. Cheese? I do not even know . D

But the beans is a good suggestion. Definitely going to check the prices of that tomorrow.

[Ali Quadir]

So are you saying you think this should be a taboo topic? That if someone starts a discussion about eating animals, in a discussion forum, the vegetarians should not participate?

No, whatever gave you that idea? I'm suggesting that like sex soccer and politics, it is a topic *I* learned to ignore because nothing good ever comes of it. Too many vegetarians can't handle it without becoming judgmental. And too many meat eaters can't handle it without having to make the point that they're meat eaters who enjoy eating meat. It's just the way it is. I find that if we ignore our dietary choices there are plenty of things that we can talk about that do not polarize.

Fact of life Monica, we never convince anyone by starting with a full frontal charge.

[Oldern]

Fact of life Monica, we never convince anyone by starting with a full frontal charge.

This, a million times this!
I would love to present some kind of "Feel Good Exchange Sytem" in forums, where one could calculate - just for fun - how much of "good" they did instead of needing to justify the bad or having to regret anything they did/are doing. Regret only imposes karma, and does NOTHING good for us, and therefore, for our society.

I am not saying hurt others and do not regret.
But if you meditate two hours a day, help others around you, AND you eat meat, I will certainly consider you an amazing person. And at the end of the day, who can say what amount of vibrations one needs to rise per serving of food? Half an hour of chanting is enough? Some charity? : D Gotta love the nonlinear nature of spiritual evolution, love it.

[Monica]

Well, 10 eggs compared to 50dkg meat was my base because 10 eggs is basically 2 meal for 2 if we do nothing else.
The meat is the same (with rice, but that is like 0.15$ per serving if we boil it down to that), 50dkg lasts for us for 2 meals with added rice. But eggs alone are rather plain, so one needs...something to go along with it. Cheese? I do not even know . D

Here is the US people usually eat eggs with some sort of bread and/or potatoes. Cheese can be added too if desired, but 2 eggs provides a good amount of protein.

But the beans is a good suggestion. Definitely going to check the prices of that tomorrow.

Great! We usually have rice with beans. Together, they make a complete protein.

Any grain + any legume (beans, peas, lentils, etc.) = complete protein. Milk is also a complete protein, as are soy and quinoa. Lowfat cheese might be, but higher fat cheese isn't a very good source of protein, as it's mostly fat.

You don't have to really think about it too much, because they tend to go together anyway.

Peanut butter + bread
Rice + Beans
Corn or wheat + beans

[Oldern]

Okay, Monica, you need to split your posts : D One half I wanna hit "like", other half I dont

[Monica]

I would love to present some kind of "Feel Good Exchange Sytem" in forums, where one could calculate - just for fun - how much of "good" they did instead of needing to justify the bad or having to regret anything they did/are doing. Regret only imposes karma, and does NOTHING good for us, and therefore, for our society.

You're free to start a thread about that if you wish!

What amazes me is that many people act as though this were the only discussion in the entire forum. But in fact it's only 1 among hundreds!! There are many other discussions. This is the only one about meat. Everyone who joins this discussion, does so voluntarily.

Some people are actually interested in the topic, and should be free to discuss it if they wish. Those who don't want to discuss it, could choose to ignore the thread.

Why, then, don't they just do that?

I'm not interested in tv shows. I don't even have tv service. But I don't go into those threads about tv shows, over in the Treehouse, and complain about the people discussing tv shows.

[Shemaya]

I think the way to heal from perceived injury/fight/hurt is to realize that everyone is reflecting you at some level and then to let go of the need to control and convince them to the path you think is right.

And furthermore to adopt an attitude of detachment and living in the moment in the joy of all that is.

The ecstasy of existing, of breathing of being, of knowing all is truly well no matter what

Love this drifting pages....it's great to come home from work and read such uplifting words .

Thanks to everybody for listening and participating....in all sincerity I am glad that we were able to discuss and uncover so much, it has greatly helped me, and I am thankful.

The path I' m on has been challenging at times, And at this point I am grateful to see my reflection so I recognize where I am and where I am headed.

This is really a great forum

don't worry Monica, I won't post any quotes! We'll end up divided over interpretation which is usually what happens with scripture, people use it to forget their unity and oneness.

[Monica]

it is a topic *I* learned to ignore because nothing good ever comes of it.

Why aren't you ignoring it then?

Fact of life Monica, we never convince anyone by starting with a full frontal charge.

So why are you doing a full frontal charge?

---

Okay, Monica, you need to split your posts : D One half I wanna hit "like", other half I dont

Done!

[Shemaya]

Okay. You win.

I must say at this point that for some reason, I feel utterly misrepresented (as a vegetarian trying to discuss in this thread). I am not taking anything personally, just generally as sides do seem to have formed.

I have made monumental efforts to discuss this subject objectively. It has been said that being encouraging would be better than instilling guilt. Instilling guilt was never my intention, and I will point out again: guilt comes from within, not without. Just as you cannot disempower someone else.

Let me just say that I did not think it was necessary to treat you all with kid gloves. You are not the sleeping masses. I thought we could discuss this subject without the typical hyper-sensitive reactions. I apologize now, for any insensitivity, or hurts I may have caused.

I feel at this point my participation has become nonproductive. I feel I have been repeatedly ignored and misrepresented. I don't know how to rectify this, other than repeat continually.

I want to thank those for their willingness to discuss the topic. I have nothing more to say at this point. I may jump back in at a later time perhaps. I wish you all the very best.

Thanks Diana, you have caused not caused me any hurt and I agree that our feelings come from within, we are each responsible for our own feelings. Perhaps your feelings of being ignored and being misrepresented are worth exploring?

I have learned over the past day or two.....so your participation with me has been very helpful and I appreciate it.

I apologize if I have ignored or misrepresented you, it was not my intention to do so.
L/L

[drifting pages]

I agree that we should look within for guidance.

I want to point that i have been to a different forum where the "spiritual" group used the mirror analogy to manipulate/dominate an individual if he/she disagreed with them on some level.

They would point that the community mirrors an issue the person had to fix, the group is flawless to find issues and solve them....

If you could see what they did to people...
I read the threads and after a while i realized what was going on....

Human beings are social and we so want to belong...

TO use that to impose yourself on another (a la hive mind) is horrible and feels like mind rape.

This is NOT happening here.

But groups can use the mirror analogy to manipulate others from the outside.

Oh look we all see things as A and you are the only one that sees it as b, obviously we can see something that you can't and if we are being like this to you is for your own good we are reflecting something for you and showing how awful and egoistic you are.
Often wearing sugary coating on top. This was some of the lines i saw there.

[Ankh]

You will save $$ on your grocery bill, and maybe even on healthcare costs long-term.

I did not. On contrary, it was more expensive for me.

I'm having a difficult time comprehending that. Meat is more expensive than eggs, rice, beans, tofu, etc. The fruits and veggies expenditure would be the same. How is it possible that you spent more?

The only way, would be if you were relying on packaged, specialty foods. Tofu might not be available everywhere, but it isn't necessary anyway. I don't know of any place in the world where eggs, rice and beans cost more than meat.

I am genuinely curious. Would you like to share how a vegetarian diet was more expensive for you?

It was true for me. I was vegetarian for many years. I started to be a vegatarian in my teens, and even thought that the ultimate thing would be to not to eat anything that is living in the nature, but what nature has to offer, such as fruits, some seeds, nuts etc.

Ah! So you were a raw vegan? If so, that would explain it. Most definitely, being raw vegan does require more education and, initially, time for food prep.

When I said "vegetarian diet is cheaper" I was referring to lacto-ovo, not raw vegan. That might explain it.

When I got pregnant, I had to start to eat the meat again.

If you were trying to do raw vegan, then I can understand that. Pregnant women do pull it off, but it is more challenging. Personally I wouldn't attempt raw vegan when pregnant, simply because nutritional and caloric needs are greatly increased, and because I'm not willing to be a pioneer in that respect. After more women have successfully done it, I'd be open to doing it (if I were still having babies, which I'm not of course!).

But plenty of vegan women have had healthy pregnancies and beautiful, healthy babies. That is common knowledge now, but when I was pregnant many years ago, I didn't have enough knowledge about being a vegan when pregnant. So I decided to err on the side of caution and started eating eggs and cheese again, temporarily. I also drank raw goat's milk.

I can understand that you did what you had to do at the time, based on the level of knowledge and support you had at the time. I had a friend who insisted on being raw vegan when pregnant, despite feeling hungry all the time. I strongly advised her against it, even though I was moving in the direction of raw vegan myself. I told her it wasn't worth potentially harming her baby! She didn't listen to me and both her babies had problems.

To me, this was the height of irresponsibility. Even if she had followed Tenet's philosophy of "listening to your body" she would have known that her body needed something! Quite simply, if the body is being nourished, it wouldn't be hungry all the time!

This was 20 years ago, when there was very little knowledge about the raw vegan diet while pregnant. Even now, some of the raw vegan gurus say, do not attempt while pregnant! It's just too new, and it's irresponsible to risk the baby's health with a new diet that hasn't been proven to be adequate for pregnant women.

To be clear, I am referring to raw vegan, NOT vegan or lacto-ovo vegetarian, both of which have been proven quite adequate for pregnant and lactating women.

You can speak for yourself, but not for other people.

I'm not speaking for anyone. Um...did you miss the part about me never assessing anyone else's diet?

I made a general statement. In my experience, meat costs more than eggs, cheese, rice and beans, so logically that means a veg diet is less expensive. Or, at the very least, certainly not more expensive!

As to 'more difficult' I just started a new thread, outlining how easy it is to go veg.

If you disagree with my assessment, the only explanation I can think of would be that eggs, rice and beans cost more than meat in your area. If you tell me that, then I will stand corrected.

But I will be very surprised, since, historically, rice and beans were considered 'peasant food' while meat was more readily available to the wealthy. I learned that in history class in junior high school. Still, maybe times have changed and costs are different where you live. So I am interested in your response.

How is that speaking for anyone else?

Perhaps this is what causing friction, harshness, and rough and tough tone in this thread? I am not talking about you specifically, because as Tenet pointed out, this is a group energy.

Maybe not, but the implication from you and the other meat-eaters is that the vegetarians are the ones with the 'harsh tone' even though we've all been stepping on eggshells this whole time, while the meat-eaters have generally been the ones calling us names (like zealot, fanatic, etc.) yet they are the ones complaining about us.

What I can say is that no matter how much encouragement and messages of self respect I may try to bring, if other selves would rather believe in messages of guilt, disempowerment and disencouragement - then it is their difficult lessons that they are very hard trying to learn, Monica. Their choices will not stop me though from trying to bring these messages over and over again. Words have power, and we can either use them to create walls, or bridges. Some services/words that we bring to others are disempowering and discouraging, and not seeing the human behind the message they are written to, but are addressed to invisible readers; and some services/words are empowering that human being they are written to, and encouriging him/her.

We're not posting any messages of guilt or disempowerment. We're simply stating facts, and backing them up with documentation. Those slaughterhouse videos I posted? Those are factual. Those things really did happen, and really do happen on a daily basis.

It would be the same if I posted a video about starving children. Would say I was "imposing guilt" and "disempowering them" if I did that?

I would rather not give *any* messages *at all* that would bring people guilt, as I believe it to be a negative catalyst, that is already provided in abundance upon this planet.

So, are you saying that if you knew about some horrible injustice, you wouldn't tell anyone? Let's say, for example, you knew for a fact that a neighbor was running a human trafficking operation. He was kidnapping children and selling them into prostitution. You even had photos of those children being tortured.

But telling the authorities would upset your other neighbors, because the perpetrator was well-regarded in the community.

Would you not tell the authorities anyway? Or would you keep your mouth shut, because the news was "disempowering" and "negative" and might produce "feelings of guilt" in the neighbors who had been looking the other way?

Note: Before anyone jumps on me for this analogy, let me be clear that I am NOT comparing eating animals to a child trafficking ring!!!! So please don't even go there. I am simply illustrating an example of something that most people would care about.

Monica, I replied to another member. You chose to respond to that. In that post you made statements while still replying to me. So I responded to that in my previous post. But I don't wish to continue deepen this discussion. It is not you personally, it is *me*.

The dynamics of this thread is, among others, separation between non-meat-eaters vs. meat-eaters. Separation does not bring acceptance, love and encouragement with it. This is a very challenging atmosphere, and perhaps in the future, these dynamics will change, or I will work through my personal distortions. Then I will be comfortable to fully participate in here. Until then, I am sorry for not deepening discussions beyond current level. I am interested in the topic itself, but the way the information is presented and shared currently, gives me some difficulties for the moment.

(I was not vegan, or raw food vegan. I wrote that in my previous post. I was vegetarian.)

[BrownEye]

Dr. Richard Wilstatter in 1915 and Dr. H. Fisher in 1930 received the Nobel Prize for outstanding research on chlorophyll.

These facts deduced by Wilstatter were dramatic. The chlorophyll molecule bears a striking resemblance to haemoglobin, the red pigment in human blood. The red blood pigment is a web of carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, and nitrogen atoms grouped around a single atom of iron. Nature's green pigment is a similar web of the same atoms except that its centrepiece is a single atom of magnesium.

The loaf of bread, the beans, the apples and the grapes in your kitchen could not be there unless it was for the magical properties of chlorophyll! All forms of life, on land and in the sea, even when they feed on each other, are parasites, depending ultimately on plant life. Your body, its flesh and its organs, is done up largely of protein coming directly to you from food plants or the flesh of plant eating animals. You, personally, exist only because of chlorophyll.

In outstanding phenomena of activity, plant life takes up water from the soil that carries to the green leaves. The leaves in turn, pick up gases such as carbon and oxygen from the gaseous elements in the air. Then through the action of invisible sun rays upon the leaves, various other elements including water and air in combination with additional gases are chemically broken up. After this has all been accomplished, the patterns of these gases and elements are then rearranged and segregated by the chlorophyll.

This entire combination is reassembled through a very elaborate chemical process into starches and sugars to ultimately form life and energy for storage in plants for future use as food by animals and humans alike.

All life energy comes from the sun. Green plants alone possess the secret of how to capture this solar energy and pass it on to people.

Offen Krantz, a research scientist, in 1950 reported successful treatment with water soluble chlorophyll on peptic ulcers of long standing.

Franz Miller, another scientist, said chlorophyll is the natural blood building element for all plant eaters and humans. He writes, "Chlorophyll has the same fast food-building effect as iron in animals made experimentally anaemic."

Emil Burge of Berne, Switzerland, made further research on chlorophyll, which was destined to establish sound therapeutic values of chlorophyll. He says, in part "Chlorophyll is recommended as an excellent specific for influencing anaemia of various kinds, for bettering the general condition of health, for improving the action of the heart and for reducing blood pressure in cases where it is abnormally high."
_________________

[Monica]

Monica, I replied to another member. You chose to respond to that.

?? You can see from the above set of quote notations, that you replied directly to me, and I then replied directly to you.

But, as you wish. I will then direct my comments to whoever might be interested in continuing discussing the points you raised.

The dynamics of this thread is, among others, separation between non-meat-eaters vs. meat-eaters.

This has been stated several times, but I strongly disagree. If that were true, then how is it that Austin and I have been able to converse so respectfully? And yossarian and I? In both cases, they eat meat and I don't; yet we haven't had any friction. How is it that I jumped in to defend Carla's diet from being put on display? and I know that the other vegetarians would have done the same.

I don't think the separation is between meat-eaters and non-meat-eaters. I think it's between those who wish to actually discuss the topic, and those who prefer to feel, as Tenet would say, butthurt, and blame those who are actually discussing the topic for their feelings.

Separation does not bring acceptance, love and encouragement with it.

That's true.

What, then, causes separation?

Does a difference of opinion cause separation?

No. If that were true, then I wouldn't consider Austin as working on the same side of the issue as I am. But I do. He is part of the solution. He and I are on the same team. I see that. I'm pretty sure he sees that. But apparently, a lot of others can't see that. They have fabricated in their minds some sort of "us vs them" division, like football teams, and have chosen their side.

I contend that it's lack of acceptance that causes separation.

Who isn't accepting whom?

(Again: The following isn't directed specifically to you, Ankh, but to all those who have been complaining about 'separation' and 'judgment' on this thread.)

I contend that the vegetarians have done a damn fine job of accepting the meat-eaters. After all, we all interact with meat-eaters on a daily basis. I even shared how my own husband occasionally ate meat, for many years. So please don't tell us we don't "accept" meat-eaters! It's simply not true. If we didn't accept meat-eaters, we wouldn't be able to function in society, because we are the minority.

On the contrary, it seems to be the meat-eaters who are unable to accept the vegetarians. Some of them have labeled us fanatics and zealots. Why? Just because we make a different choice of diet? Just because we happen to think that animals deserve our compassion?

Several of the vegetarians have shared how this thread has helped us develop more sensitivity and compassion towards spiritual seekers who eat meat. But did any of the meat-eaters reciprocate? I asked, not once but twice, whether any meat-eater had found it in their heart to feel more love, acceptance, and compassion for the vegetarians. NO ONE responded publicly, though 2 people did respond to me privately. (You know who you are, and you know how much I appreciate you! )

But to the rest of the meat-eaters - those who couldn't find it in their hearts to reach out to us - What do you make of that? WHY are you not able to accept us and actually feel compassion for US?

So please: Do not tell us we are the ones judging. Please do not tell us we are "causing separation" because of our convictions.

It is the lack of acceptance for others' convictions, that is causing the separation, NOT the convictions themselves.

[yossarian]

I asked, not once but twice, whether any meat-eater had found it in their heart to feel more love, acceptance, and compassion for the vegetarians. NO ONE responded publicly, though 2 people did respond to me privately. (You know who you are, and you know how much I appreciate you! )

I responded to this.

I also watched the slaughterhouse video.

But for some reason the people in this thread tend to lump me in on the "vegetarian team" because 3 years ago I made a few posts in the first three pages of this thread, which then turned into 113 pages, all of which did not include me.

[Ali Quadir]

Why aren't you ignoring it then?

The reason I involved myself is to give Shemaya and Tenet Nosce a vote of confidence. I think the patience they're expressing is commendable. So I wanted to commend them. Are you suggesting I should keep my mouth shut?

So why are you doing a full frontal charge?

I was just commenting on my experience as a vegetarian with the behavior of most people concerning vegetarianism, on both sides of the fence. To me this just a fact of life. Interesting that you should perceive this as a full frontal charge.

---

@Everyone.
Everybody should do what everybody thinks best of course. But as far as I am concerned it's simple social dynamics. Interaction with otherselves. We tend to reap what we sow. It is my experience that most people are really open to experimenting with not eating meat provided there is clearly no intent to assimilate them into the vegetarian collective.

In general, if people are hostile to wonderfull ideals.. Perhaps one should stop pushing them down their throats..

I also can't have dinner with a group of people without the matter coming up for discussion. It is tricky business. As a vegetarian, one gets invited to climb upon a soap box by the person to ones left. Yet if one is too "righteous" about it. The person on ones right takes offense, and feels the need to make a comment for example: how much they enjoy their meat. It's all fishhook/pinball theory from there on really... It's social dynamics, there is no one to blame. Everyone takes part in escalating the issue.

As a vegetarian I bring my diet to the table, therefore I see it as my responsibility to defuse these situations, preferably before they arise. If I choose to take a stand, then *I* will be the one sitting at a table where the main dishes are hostility and agression. Not only is this futile. I have better things to do with my heart and want to get invited to dinner parties in the future.

And that's my two cents.

[Ankh]

Monica, I replied to another member. You chose to respond to that.

?? You can see from the above set of quote notations, that you replied directly to me, and I then replied directly to you.

On page 107, I answered to a post made by Shemaya, quoting her, post #2134. You chose to reply to it, post #2135. This is the post I am talking about. You made statements in that reply, to which I answered. Then you made further questions to that reply, to which I responded that I did not wish to continue deepen the discussion anymore. It was the first time I made this kind of post, and I appologise for that! It has nothing to do with you personally, but with me.

But this has happened before though: on page 94 I answered to a post made by Oldern, quoting him, post #1875. You chose to reply to that post too, post #1876. But that time, it ended up in just a little discussion.

The dynamics of this thread is, among others, separation between non-meat-eaters vs. meat-eaters.

This has been stated several times, but I strongly disagree. If that were true, then how is it that Austin and I have been able to converse so respectfully? And yossarian and I? In both cases, they eat meat and I don't; yet we haven't had any friction.

I should have added to my statement "how I see it", in short the above quoted statement of mine should have been: "The dynamics of this thread is, among others, separation between non-meat-eaters vs. meat-eaters, in my opinion, or how I see it."

I am glad to hear that Austin and yossarian and others could be of good service to you. I wish that I could be of that service to you as well. Maybe if you are patient with me, I will be too, in time. Believe me, Monica, I am trying. Very, very hard. Again, this work has nothing to do with you personally, but with *me*.

I don't think the separation is between meat-eaters and non-meat-eaters. I think it's between those who wish to actually discuss the topic, and those who prefer to feel, as Tenet would say, butthurt, and blame those who are actually discussing the topic for their feelings.

I am not butthurt, Monica. But I am struggling with my own lessons. I am sorry if I unintentionally hurted you, and that I am not able to be of service to you, for the moment.

If that were true, then I wouldn't consider Austin as working on the same side of the issue as I am. But I do. He is part of the solution. He and I are on the same team. I see that. I'm pretty sure he sees that. But apparently, a lot of others can't see that. They have fabricated in their minds some sort of "us vs them" division, like football teams, and have chosen their side.

The reason to why I see a separation is because of statements like below:

I contend that the vegetarians have done a damn fine job of accepting the meat-eaters. After all, we all interact with meat-eaters on a daily basis. I even shared how my own husband occasionally ate meat, for many years. So please don't tell us we don't "accept" meat-eaters! It's simply not true. If we didn't accept meat-eaters, we wouldn't be able to function in society, because we are the minority.

On the contrary, it seems to be the meat-eaters who are unable to accept the vegetarians. Some of them have labeled us fanatics and zealots. Why? Just because we make a different choice of diet? Just because we happen to think that animals deserve our compassion?

Several of the vegetarians have shared how this thread has helped us develop more sensitivity and compassion towards spiritual seekers who eat meat. But did any of the meat-eaters reciprocate? I asked, not once but twice, whether any meat-eater had found it in their heart to feel more love, acceptance, and compassion for the vegetarians. NO ONE responded publicly, though 2 people did respond to me privately. (You know who you are, and you know how much I appreciate you! )

But to the rest of the meat-eaters - those who couldn't find it in their hearts to reach out to us - What do you make of that? WHY are you not able to accept us and actually feel compassion for US?

So please: Do not tell us we are the ones judging. Please do not tell us we are "causing separation" because of our convictions.

It is the lack of acceptance for others' convictions, that is causing the separation, NOT the convictions themselves.

What I personally read (subjectively, and that is not meant in an objective kind of way) is: we=vegetarians accept this and that, so do not judge *us*; and you=meat-eaters did this and that... In short, I see "us" vs. "them" dynamic.

Then you say that Austin and yossarian is on our (=vegetarians) side, no other of *them* (=meat-eaters). I am glad that they are able to bridge this separation for you, and be of service to you. But this is what I see, Monica. I have to work to see through this wall of separation.

Again, I *do NOT say* that "one side" is doing this, and not the other side. On contrary, I said, that both sides are doing it. That we are all creating this distortion. This is a group dynamic. You can read it in this post I made, to your reply:

I wasn't speaking to you personally in my post. I was speaking to another member about things that I spoke of in that post to that member. And I wish to not to be stuck now in a debate of who is doing what, because as Tenet pointed out this is a group energy.

Peace, love and light to you. I mean it.

[Oldern]

@Everyone.
Everybody should do what everybody thinks best of course. But as far as I am concerned it's simple social dynamics. Interaction with otherselves. We tend to reap what we sow. It is my experience that most people are really open to experimenting with not eating meat provided there is clearly no intent to assimilate them into the vegetarian collective.

In general, if people are hostile to wonderfull ideals.. Perhaps one should stop pushing them down their throats..

I also can't have dinner with a group of people without the matter coming up for discussion. It is tricky business. As a vegetarian, one gets invited to climb upon a soap box by the person to ones left. Yet if one is too "righteous" about it. The person on ones right takes offense, and feels the need to make a comment for example: how much they enjoy their meat. It's all fishhook/pinball theory from there on really... It's social dynamics, there is no one to blame. Everyone takes part in escalating the issue.

As a vegetarian I bring my diet to the table, therefore I see it as my responsibility to defuse these situations, preferably before they arise. If I choose to take a stand, then *I* will be the one sitting at a table where the main dishes are hostility and agression. Not only is this futile. I have better things to do with my heart and want to get invited to dinner parties in the future.

And that's my two cents.

I agree with you fully. If one is a really "highly evolved spiritual being", then is should not matter how others react to his/her food preferences. Let that be a "frontal attack" or a simple sarcastic comment: if I am vegetarian, and I am comfortable with it, then there is no need to escalate things further in that imaginary dinner. One then just smiles, eats the food, and lets every comment pass through him/her without a reaction. Now that is a spiritual state of being that I want to strive for. I see a lot of analogies about this with EVERYTHING ELSE in life - religion, politics, hobbies, everything. *insert random Bashar quotes that perfectly explains the situation about mirrors, change, inner self and outer reflections*

[Ali Quadir]

I agree with you fully. If one is a really "highly evolved spiritual being", then is should not matter how others react to his/her food preferences. Let that be a "frontal attack" or a simple sarcastic comment: if I am vegetarian, and I am comfortable with it, then there is no need to escalate things further in that imaginary dinner. One then just smiles, eats the food, and lets every comment pass through him/her without a reaction. Now that is a spiritual state of being that I want to strive for. I see a lot of analogies about this with EVERYTHING ELSE in life - religion, politics, hobbies, everything. *insert random Bashar quotes that perfectly explains the situation about mirrors, change, inner self and outer reflections*

Amen Oldern, it's really simple. And people will automatically respect and admire those who can handle these delicate social situations with some tact and grace. Admiration leads to inspiration.

Reminds me of the difference between a good negro and a bad negro. The good kind of negro can get invited to parties.

Mod edit: Yossarian explains the light in which he intended this statement halfway through this post.

Vegetarians never got thrown out of carnivore only places. They have never been lynched for not eating meat. They have not been set on fire forced to do menial jobs for low pay, forced to sit in the back of the bus. They have never been enslaved. They could always marry whomever they wanted, yes even meat eaters! There simply are no dietary hate crimes.

Comparing being an ass about your dietary choice, and the struggles racial minorities have had to endure is in my book really really ignorant.

[norral]

Mod edit: Norral is responding to a statement of Yossarian's. Yossarian clarifies the light in which he intended this statement halfway through this post.

amen even the word negro bothers me. what the hell is a negro. that is a label given by white caucasian society to a people that has absolutely
NO NO validity in my book. i hope i never see that word again here . a good negro PLEASE dont ever use that term around me again i find it very
OFFENSIVE. the word makes me SICK

---

yeah a good negro was my cousin who graduated at the top of her class from hunter college and then couldnt get a job that white high school grads could get , she would have had to work for them she would have had to work for them , then she became a teacher and she got all the s*** classrooms with all the difficult kids because she was a good negro . right a good negro thats what white society wants thats what white society thinks trayvon martin is a good negro because he is a dead negro. now that we are not slaves anymore the only good negro is a dead negro in the eyes of much of white society . thats the reality of freaking hypocritical america running around the world fixing everything but cant fix their own house because they are so filled with hate. heres a toast to more good negroes .
aargh aaargh aaargh.

[Shemaya]

I'm ( not )going to defend my feelings, my feelings are mine and I already explained why they were triggered. Monica, based on what you have written, it seems you feel I was blaming vegetarians for my feelings, I was not. As I said, the guilt - complex that was programmed into me was triggered by what was being written here. I recognized the energy pattern, it was familiar and therefore triggered my feelings.

I really appreciate Ali, who I know is an empath , for his understanding regarding why I would feel the way I do. Thank you, bro.

I would like to say that this has been a great reflection for me. I am a very earnest seeker and as Ra and Q'uo have said, those gems of emotion are for my understanding and use to polish and refine and purify. So that it was I am doing, I'm reflecting inward, and discovering more about myself. I explored what was bothering me about this thread, and it has been a worthwhile exploration.

I would love to share what I've learned, but I don't feel " safe" in being that open right now, maybe I will later, or if someone is interested pm me.

Thanks all for the vote of confidence and understanding, you know who you are

[Tenet Nosce]

I also find that I need to take a break from this thread. Call me "selfish" but the way it has negatively impacted me over the last few days takes precedence over all else.

Thanks to all who participated, and my apologies if I have left anybody "hanging" by not responding to a post to me. There is always PM if it is that important.

[Ali Quadir]

I think it's safe to say that everyone on this forum is compassionate in their own way. Some topics combined with fishhook and pinball theory often makes us express ourselves in unfortunate ways.