In regards to eating meat

[drifting pages]

The one i linked is this HFAC/Certified
Humane® (not the american one) right ?

Edit: Yea http://www.certifiedhumane.org/index.php...act-sheets

[Tenet Nosce]

Is anyone aware of the http://www.certifiedhumane.org/

I have this here in Brazil as well, in my state (são Paulo) there are farms and slaughter houses following this.

I saw a news article that said the Europe Union won't buy meat that is not produced in this way starting 2012.

This looks like a great program! Here is a video I found on the organization and their practices. Thanks for sharing!

For anyone interesting in comparing different animal welfare certification programs, here's a very comprehensive comparison chart:

http://ngfn.org/resources/ngfn-database/...pendix.pdf

The highest standards are from the Animal Welfare Approved organization, which is what we are certified (to toot my own horn just a bit ).

Wow! This is a great resource to have. Chock full of valuable information. Thanks so much for sharing!

And for anyone wondering exactly how certain standards are decided, why certain things are considered "humane" and others not, or how the idea of humane animal husbandry came around, I would suggest doing some research on Dr. Temple Grandin. There is a movie about her which is amazing. She pioneered research into the psychological state of animals in the meat industry and helped develop standards which would keep animals within a calm and natural state of mind throughout the entire cycle. Much emphasis was placed on eliminating fear, anxiety, and nervousness.

I've been wondering about the thought process which goes on behind the scenes. It looks like a lot of hard work has been going into this process! Do you happen to recall the name of the movie? Is it on Netflix?

Something I've also wondered about is if the emotional state of an animal throughout its incarnation has an effect on the healthfulness of the meat when eaten. Do you have any recommendations for looking deeper into this subject?

[Monica]

You and Pickle jumped all over it like white on rice, and have been at it ever since, slapping high-fives all along the way. It has been quite the show! You two should take your act on the road!

Why do that when we're having so much fun here? I'm glad you enjoyed it.

If you were only talking about unsolicited advice, then this is the source of our seeming disagreement over the past few days, as I was speaking of the giving of soliticed advice.

OK. It never entered my mind that anyone would have any issues with someone giving solicited advice. I'm glad we got that cleared up too.

Thanks for your persistence.

LOL!

[Bring4th_Austin]

I've been wondering about the thought process which goes on behind the scenes. It looks like a lot of hard work has been going into this process! Do you happen to recall the name of the movie? Is it on Netflix?

The movie is a biopic simply called Temple Grandin...her story is pretty amazing. Her inspiration for working in the livestock industry came from battling her own fear and anxiety due to autism. Definitely a really cool story.

She mainly worked in the cattle industry restructuring slaughterhouses, but her work has had a major impact on humane animal husbandry all across the board. The idea of finding out what specifically causes psychological triggers within animals to feel fear or anxiety and eliminating those triggers is how most animal welfare standards are set.

Something I've also wondered about is if the emotional state of an animal throughout its incarnation has an effect on the healthfulness of the meat when eaten. Do you have any recommendations for looking deeper into this subject?

Unfortunately I don't know of any legitimate or literal information about the nutritional effects of meat raised in fear and anxiety and meat raised in a happy and natural setting. Some people have suggested that, since fear and anxiety release certain chemicals into the body, animals living in fear and anxiety would have different nutritional value to the meat, but I don't know if that is verifiable or not.

[3DMonkey]

I have a fishing book. Deep sea type fishing. He claims the meat is more tender and tastier if the fish is killed immediately. He claims it has to do with the resistance the fish's body goes through. So, he keeps a strong alcohol, say vodka, and pours it directly into the gills before he even lays the fish on the deck. Kills it immediately, I guess.

[Shemaya]

The one i linked is this HFAC/Certified
Humane® (not the american one) right ?

Edit: Yea http://www.certifiedhumane.org/index.php...act-sheets

I want to emphasize how much I appreciate this kind of helpful information. It addresses what is truly the problem. The problem is Not that humans eat meat. Human have evolved over millions of years to eat meat. I have yet to see one of the vegetarians acknowledge this fact, or comment about the video I posted about Aajonus V, who actually healed his body when the Inuits told him to eat raw meat, and as he was dying Coyotes brought him rabbit as an offering which he ate, after being sick and vegan, and experienced immediate health benefits, and eventually healed to vibrant health.

The problem is not that people eat meat, it's the inhumane treatment of animals and the factory farming system that we have. That's atrocious, I don't think anyone on this board would disagree on that.

For those who are in a social context that involves preparation of food for others, and living with meat-eaters, this info is empowering, and inspiring.

So I think that is what bothers me most about this particular thread, I find it dis empowering.

I was not a true vegetarian, but ate fish , eggs, milk thinking back. But I ended up in a transpersonal crisis, a difficult spiritual awakening in which I became really ungrounded and took quite a while to regain stability. The stress probably contributed to the severe anemia I experienced. Eating meat helped with the the ungroundedness and anemia, both. I've already mentioned the social/community environment I am in which supported neither spiritual awakening, nor vegetarianism.

So just from my own personal experience, the views posed by the vegetarians in this thread feel uncompassionate. I am not saying you are all uncompassionate people, I know that you are compassionate. But you're presenting your views in a way that disempowers. This is my opinion and reflection for you to ignore, understand, or reject, or accept. I hope you'd understand, but am certainly not counting on it, based on the 106 pages written here so far.

[Tenet Nosce]

So just from my own personal experience, the views posed by the vegetarians in this thread feel uncompassionate. I am not saying you are all uncompassionate people, I know that you are compassionate. But you're presenting your views in a way that disempowers. This is my opinion and reflection for you to ignore, understand, or reject, or accept. I hope you'd understand, but am certainly not counting on it, based on the 106 pages written here so far.

Thank you for sharing that, Shemaya. It helps to alleviate the feeling of loneliness and general lack of support I have been feeling regarding my comments in this thread. I know my behavior and words deserve some rebuke of their own. However I also do know that I am not the only one who feels this way, and that there are multiple others who just won't participate in this thread, period, for the same reasons.

It is nice and convenient to package up all these feelings people are having and wrap them in a tidy bow of "immense guilt and shame they are denying from being meat eaters" and be off on one's merry vegan way. But even if that were true- how is that compassionate?

I was watching a series of TED talks on love last night. One of the most striking comments for me was about how the most important thing for a human being to feel loved is a sense of belonging. Let me say- when the message offered is "You don't get to join the "Clear Energy Club" unless you stop eating meat"- there is no belonging there. Only separation. There is no empowerment, only shame. And that is making the subject to be very, very personal, despite whatever the surface words may be.

Personally speaking, I don't feel like I belong in this thread. I feel like there has been a false front put forth in this thread about having open discussion and "understanding" and yet what I actually feel is elitism, prejudice, and fanaticism engaged in their most favorite of shadow dances.

I won't speak on others' behalf, but what I have perceived is many, many people attempt to come into this thread offering genuine heartfelt feelings on this important issue, and edged right back out of the thread- often times quite uncompassionately- once it has been determined that they are not a good candidate for veganism, or are a threat to the "one true way" path of veganism. Thus the overall feeling is that this thread is more about recruitment, than about understanding.

That's what I see, and that's how I feel. It is real easy to fling some shadow projections around and say "That's all about you, TN." But when so many others start to feel the same way... that is no longer about me. It is about we and when enough people have the courage to shine their own light, that is when it becomes more clearly seen where the shadow is originating from.

We are all responsible for the shadow, as we are the light.

I would like to recognize and salute the courage of so many Bring4th members who have come into this thread. From what I see, it is quite possible for a meat-eater to "bare their soul" and to those, I would like to offer my gratitude. You are all invited to my 4D party, no matter what you choose to eat there.

As for me, I am very interested to discuss the humane/ethical raising of animals for food, and would like to see a whole new thread dedicated to that topic, if anybody cares to start one.

[Shemaya]

It is all nice and convenient to package up all these feelings people are having and wrap them in a bow of "immense guilt and shame they are denying from being meat eaters" and be off on one's merry vegan way. But even if that were true- how is that compassionate?

I was watching a series of TED talks on love last night. One of the most striking comments for me was about how the most important thing for a human being to feel loved is a sense of belonging. Let me say- when the message offered is "You don't get to join the "Clear Energy Club" unless you stop eating meat"- there is no belonging there. Only separation. There is no empowerment, only shame.

Yes...for me it's more of a sense of frustration and indignation that is triggered from my Catholic upbringing. Talk about guilt! Major tactic used by the patriarchy to disempower. I remember when I was 20 y/o, socially awkward and constantly apologizing saying "I'm sorry" for nearly everything I said or did. It was as if I felt I had to apologize for existing, and needless to say, I was depressed for much of my younger years.

I am sharing these personal feelings in the hope that there will be understanding, and compassion.

I feel no shame in eating meat, I am grateful for the 2d beings that nourish me, plants and animals.

Guilt?.....I feel much less guilt at age 44 and acceptance of my perfectly imperfect humanness than when I was 20. And much more joy and love than that time.

And I continue to strive towards a sattvic diet...I know it will help boost my energy. Need more energy to convince my 13y/ o steak- loving daughter to eat her veggies.

[Plenum]

Personally speaking, I don't feel like I belong in this thread. I feel like there has been a false front put forth in this thread about having open discussion and "understanding" and yet what I actually feel is elitism and prejudice engaged in their most favorite of shadow dances.

I won't speak on others' behalf, but what I have perceived is many, many people attempt to come into this thread offering genuine heartfelt feelings on this important issue, and edged right back out of the thread- often times quite uncompassionately- once it has been determined that they are not a good candidate for veganism, or are a threat to the "one true way" path of veganism. Thus the overall feeling is that this thread is more about recruitment, than about understanding.

I feel sorry that you feel that way Tenet.

Monica has always been understanding when I have posted in this thread, as I have explored non-meat diets in the past with not much success.

but as I have said before, this thread seems to have a way of making people pretty mad.

I guess at some point, we all feel that what we put in our mouths and stomachs is sacred, and when someone (whether meat-eater or vege-eater) says something different, it comes as an affront to our sense of habits.

- -

we have hands that can make art or make war, we have a stomach that can digest many things.

Variety is the hallmark of the Creator.

[BrownEye]

So just from my own personal experience, the views posed by the vegetarians in this thread feel uncompassionate. I am not saying you are all uncompassionate people, I know that you are compassionate.

Most likely this is because many vegans/vegetarians feel strong compassion for the helpless, while feeling that the "help themselves to the helpless" should be chastised. You already have all the power, why do you need to be empowered more?

From my position, and it is probably the same for others, I see a human as being perfectly capable of being responsible. In fact, from the view of the metaphysical, self confidence and self responsibility are the only aspects the negative density respects. This directly ties in to positive/negative shift.

Ha, remember this is text based interactions, and mean nothing. For all I know you have a pet that you love and adore, and are helping with it's evolution. That is a seed that is meant to be grown. That by itself means a lot in the world.

---

Thus the overall feeling is that this thread is more about recruitment, than about understanding.

That is what attracted me to Bring4th was the possiblity of recruiting more members to my Vegans United Cult.

So far I have been unsuccessful due to other preexisting powerful vegan cults.

[Shemaya]

So just from my own personal experience, the views posed by the vegetarians in this thread feel uncompassionate. I am not saying you are all uncompassionate people, I know that you are compassionate.

Most likely this is because many vegans/vegetarians feel strong compassion for the helpless, while feeling that the "help themselves to the helpless" should be chastised. You already have all the power, why do you need to be empowered?

I invite you to say something more empowering than that. Your vegan - powered clarified energy has allowed disempowerment to slip into the intention to be empowering. Just as my meat clarity is doing now

[BrownEye]

No I am not intending to empower you. I mean that as a human you have all the power. We are a very destructive species.

What has power over humans other than that we attract to us?

[Tenet Nosce]

Monica has always been understanding when I have posted in this thread, as I have explored non-meat diets in the past with not much success.

To be clear, I am referring to a social dynamic which is larger than the one known as "Monica", and of which I am, by virtue of my being here, a participant.

[Plenum]

To be clear, I am referring to a social dynamic which is larger than the one known as "Monica", and of which I am, by virtue of my being here, a participant.

no probs Tenet.

the rest of the forum is watching with keen interest

[Shemaya]

No I am not intending to empower you. I mean that as a human you have all the power. We are a very destructive species.

What has power over humans other than that we attract to us?

Well, that explains it even more. The statement " you already have all the power." was not intended to be empowering. No wonder it didn't feel empowering. And it felt like intentional triggering of guilt, because of course it is my own irresponsibility and lack of confidence that determines my communities eating habits..

---

Lol, plenum.

[Tenet Nosce]

the rest of the forum is watching with keen interest

I'm never quite sure what that tongue-smiley is meant to convey.

But if there really is anybody "watching with keen interest" then I would suggest putting the popcorn down and doing some research into this concept of "defilement" based on what one eats. Some additional keywords would include "Sons of the Law of One" and "Sons of Belial", the "wicked" and the "righteous", and the "ahuras" and the "daevas". Definitely look up "ahimsa" and the "Jains". I would invite folks to also investigate into "soma", "ambrosia", and "manna", and perhaps contemplate how it is possible that these foods were previously present here- on 3D earth- in the distant past, and perhaps ponder upon how the concept of spiritual defilement by food may have interplayed with those of elitism, prejudice, and fanaticism, during that time period.

If one wanted to get really fancy-like they could use a search tool like Google and enter a query for site:bring4th.org [keyword1] [keyword2]... and delve a little deeper into what of these topics has been scattered around the forum.

At the risk of sounding "bigoted" one may even intend to go within and see what is encountered there, as regards this topic.

Then, perhaps, if anybody would care to discuss these concepts, I would be open to having a conversation about it.

In the meantime- Thanks for watching the show!

[Plenum]

In the meantime- Thanks for watching the show!

[Shemaya]

Omg, Tenet, laughing so hard...great send-off for me as I leave my house and go forth to love and serve. Thanks for that

[Diana]

The one i linked is this HFAC/Certified
Humane® (not the american one) right ?

Edit: Yea http://www.certifiedhumane.org/index.php...act-sheets

I want to emphasize how much I appreciate this kind of helpful information. It addresses what is truly the problem. The problem is Not that humans eat meat. Human have evolved over millions of years to eat meat. I have yet to see one of the vegetarians acknowledge this fact, or comment about the video I posted about Aajonus V, who actually healed his body when the Inuits told him to eat raw meat, and as he was dying Coyotes brought him rabbit as an offering which he ate, after being sick and vegan, and experienced immediate health benefits, and eventually healed to vibrant health.

Monica responded to it. And I will too. That is a beautiful story. I love it. The healing was probably on more than one level. For one, love. The love coming from the coyote, the Inuit, and receiving the love. Also, the connection we have lost with nature was reestablished. And finally, the meat was RAW. Raw food is what our bodies know how to digest and use for fuel and healing.

The problem is not that people eat meat, it's the inhumane treatment of animals and the factory farming system that we have. That's atrocious, I don't think anyone on this board would disagree on that.

Agreed, that is the core of the problem, a closed heart and connection to all. I would like to think that no one here would disagree with that. There are some here like Austin, who farms humanely, and a few have mentioned seeking out locally and humanely farmed meat and eggs.

It goes deeper. Humane treatment of animals for food is a huge leap from factory farming. And yet, there still exists the fact that animals do not want to be killed. I find it difficult to comprehend that Gaia would say the animals don't mind. I do understand the circle of life, and perhaps you meant that their souls understand it (like we do). But who wants their life cut short to be food?

We have discussed gratitude here before, but I will mention it. If one eats meat, yes, the gratitude you give as the Native Americans do is an acknowledgment of the circle of life, and your gratitude for the sacrifice an animal made to be food. The intention is there, and that's good. Remember though, that this was meant in a time when humans were part of that cycle, their bodies decomposed into the soil, or at least their ashes became part of the soil, which nourished the plants, which nourished the animals, etc.

And we come to, what does the meat do to your spiritual nature? There is the fact that animals (no matter how much their souls might understand) do not want to die. Not only does this seem like an infringement of free will (and I have at length talked about plants in regards to that, but would be happy to repeat), but it also suggests that the fear and terror of dying is in the food, both chemically and energetically.

Also, animals are by their natures violent and/or fearful. They live in a violent and fear-based paradigm (fight-or-flight all the time). What are you consuming when you consume an animal?

So I think that is what bothers me most about this particular thread, I find it dis empowering.

I can only imagine that you find it disempowering because you are in conflict. I can tell from your writing that you are a sensitive, loving person. We are all here to discuss. And if you were comfortable in your choices, you would not feel disempowered no matter what anyone said.

I was not a true vegetarian, but ate fish , eggs, milk thinking back. But I ended up in a transpersonal crisis, a difficult spiritual awakening in which I became really ungrounded and took quite a while to regain stability. The stress probably contributed to the severe anemia I experienced. Eating meat helped with the the ungroundedness and anemia, both. I've already mentioned the social/community environment I am in which supported neither spiritual awakening, nor vegetarianism.

No matter what a person eats, it's best to eat responsibly--to make sure you nourish the body well. This goes for meat-eaters, vegetarians, vegans, no matter. It sounds to me as though you were thrown out of balance, and were having both good and deleterious results. The idea is to balance. If you try again to be vegetarian, a bit of research on healthy eating would be good, and to take it at a pace that doesn't upset your life too much.

As for your environment, this is where I completely depart from your stance. Why on earth would this stop you, because others don't support it? You are your own person, and stand in your own integrity. If you lived with an STS individual, would you comply to his/her wishes? It is easy to be a vegetarian for the most part (much harder to be vegan and raw). You just eat the plant food and not the meat from a meal. Let me add that the meal, should, in the first place, be healthy for all; so there should be enough food choices for you. You can supplement with green drinks and superfoods.

So just from my own personal experience, the views posed by the vegetarians in this thread feel uncompassionate. I am not saying you are all uncompassionate people, I know that you are compassionate. But you're presenting your views in a way that disempowers. This is my opinion and reflection for you to ignore, understand, or reject, or accept. I hope you'd understand, but am certainly not counting on it, based on the 106 pages written here so far.

I respect your opinion, as I trust everyone here does. All opinions are welcome. No offense taken. Firstly, this is a discussion, and many views are presented. It can be difficult to word things exactly right so as not to offend anyone. Secondly, this is a spiritual site for seekers, individuals interested in exploring ways to evolve, and the question came up about meat-eating; hence, the discussion. Thirdly, no one can disempower you; only you can do that.

Perhaps you can forgive the vegetarians for their passion. I will speak for myself. I may not sound it because I tend to intellectualize everything, but I am very sensitive. I don't even like driving by the properties with horses. They are almost always just standing there, staring, penned in. Sometimes they are trying to reach through the fence to get leaves from a bush on the other side (some food that is real) because their own area is nothing but dirt and the processed foods they are fed. My heart just hurts every single time, which is every time I drive anywhere as I live outside the city. Humans have been using animals for their own purposes for millennia, and we do not need to.

I simply won't be a party to it, and though I miss some areas where I am complicit, once I become aware, I stop. And I do try to help others become aware. But only when appropriate. I don't preach; I respond to a question. Which is what I am doing here.

---

I was watching a series of TED talks on love last night. One of the most striking comments for me was about how the most important thing for a human being to feel loved is a sense of belonging. Let me say- when the message offered is "You don't get to join the "Clear Energy Club" unless you stop eating meat"- there is no belonging there. Only separation. There is no empowerment, only shame. And that is making the subject to be very, very personal, despite whatever the surface words may be.

Personally speaking, I don't feel like I belong in this thread. I feel like there has been a false front put forth in this thread about having open discussion and "understanding" and yet what I actually feel is elitism and prejudice engaged in their most favorite of shadow dances.

I understand what you are saying. Humans, and animals, all have a sense of wanting to belong. It is an evolutionary mandate, a survival instinct (packs and herds survive better). Humans are out of sync right now, because they are evolving past the instinct for survival to higher consciousness. (This is not a judgment, please don't take it as such.)

Humans want to belong for other reasons as well, such as, dysfunctional families when growing up, leaving one wounded and separate. There is also the idea of being separate from intelligent infinity, or God, if you will.

Elitism and prejudice, Tenet, are your judgments upon people with opinions other than yours.

You also feel superior somewhat, do you not? Because you are educated and an "expert" on nutrition. That's fine. I respect your expertise, but I do not have to agree with it.

We can discuss this issue, even if no one agrees, because we all still have an interest. In discussing, we stir the soup. It is not a linear process: ask question, get answer, agree and change. It is a complex, dynamic, evolving process which provides opportunities for awareness, growth, understanding, and interaction.

[Tenet Nosce]

Elitism and prejudice, Tenet, are your judgments upon people with opinions other than yours.

No- they are an observation, not a judgement. Your "seeing" them as a judgment is a judgement. Your "seeing" them as finger-pointing is a judgement.

The body of knowledge I hold does not make me "superior" it makes me responsible. That includes speaking up when I see 25 grams of protein a day being made as general recommendations to be "more spiritual".

The communication isn't about how so-and-so is an elitist, prejudiced, or a fanatic. It is about how each of us gives a "free pass" to these when it just so happens to support our personal agenda. It is a dynamic, not a specific word or action or person.

The communication is also about- if one is an activist- (and aren't we all in our own way?) why not look within to one's own "ranks" and see where elitism, prejudice, and fanaticism are given a "free pass" by those in the community. Maybe think about... if this is actually getting in the way of the desired result. Maybe think about... if one identifies with a group perhaps they take on some responsibility for the results of elitism, prejudice, and fanaticism among others in their group.

[Plenum]

The communication isn't about how so-and-so is an elitist, prejudiced, or a fanatic. It is about how each of us gives a "free pass" to these when it just so happens to support our personal agenda. It is a dynamic, not a specific word or action or person.

you mean people take sides, like a football team?

[Ashim]

If I may add my 'mustard' as we say in germany:
This thread seems to go into the 'rights' and 'wrongs' of consuming animal meat or produce, or?
I would make the suggestion that blessing (communicating) with the entity (or group) in a manner of deep gratitude for sacrifice is sufficient for any human to not worry about having a 'bad conscience'. The 2nd density entities are often in a state of fear and shock before and after termination of the physical body - thus this vibration is consumed by the un-aware. The manifestations of this in life are fairly obvious.
Agression, competition, egocentrical behaviour etc.
Before eating a animal (I tend to eat mostly fish and fruit but would not turn away any food from a host) the soul of the entity should be blessed and thanked for it's sacrifice. this should be done in a state of quiet meditation with an open crown chakra.
There will be a transfer of energy. The more sincere the thanks and love/light one is able to send, the more intense the experience.
It is possible to feel great sensations of joy whilst in contact with the 'animal' realm.
Sorry to butt-in, just thought I would share my thoughts again.

[Diana]

Elitism and prejudice, Tenet, are your judgments upon people with opinions other than yours.

No- they are an observation, not a judgement. Your "seeing" them as a judgment is a judgement. Your "seeing" them as finger-pointing is a judgement.

No, I was observing. "Elitism, fanaticism, and prejudice" are interpretations, based on observation. What else could I conclude other than that you made a judgment?

The body of knowledge I hold does not make me "superior" it makes me responsible. That includes speaking up when I see 25 grams of protein a day being made as general recommendations to be "more spiritual".

So, you are just responsible and not elite or superior, but I, as a vegetarian trying to discuss here, am elitist, fanatical, and prejudice, and not just being responsible? You are name-calling.

I like to be proactive. Can we get past the name-calling and discuss the subject? You are fond of the term, butthurt. Don't be butthurt. I'm not, and this thread has attacked vegetarians all over the place. My ego is not at issue here, animals are. PM the mods if you think someone is violating a guideline.

The communication isn't about how so-and-so is an elitist, prejudiced, or a fanatic. It is about how each of us gives a "free pass" to these when it just so happens to support our personal agenda. It is a dynamic, not a specific word or action or person.

The communication is also about- if one is an activist- (and aren't we all in our own way?) why not look within to one's own "ranks" and see where elitism, prejudice, and fanaticism are given a "free pass" by those in the community. Maybe think about... if this is actually getting in the way of the desired result. Maybe think about... if one identifies with a group perhaps they take on some responsibility for the results of elitism, prejudice, and fanaticism among others in their group.

I see what you're saying. As humans, as difficult as it is to swallow for me, we have a collective consciousness which has created the world, and as a human I must accept responsibility to some extent for the whole mess.

However, I simply have no control over what others do. Why should I take responsibility for other vegetarians? Or fanatics? Or individuals with prejudice? As a white person, should I take responsibility for what a klu klux klan member does? Should I apologize for what someone else does?

I try and be the best I can be, and let it flow from me. I am responsible for me. In this way, I think I have power to affect the whole, since I can't change anyone else.

I am trying to bring awareness here, and gain awareness here, not trying to change anyone. A more evolved world is something I would like. But I know I can't make anyone change. I do know that I can inform, discuss, learn, and interact, hopefully to some productive and enlightening end.

[@ndy]

We have discussed gratitude here before, but I will mention it. If one eats meat, yes, the gratitude you give as the Native Americans do is an acknowledgment of the circle of life, and your gratitude for the sacrifice an animal made to be food. The intention is there, and that's good. Remember though, that this was meant in a time when humans were part of that cycle, their bodies decomposed into the soil, or at least their ashes became part of the soil, which nourished the plants, which nourished the animals, etc.

Heya Diana

I seriously don't see us as detached from that. I feel very much in a body that shares in that cycle. Do you not feel part of our earth in that way too?

So I think that is what bothers me most about this particular thread, I find it dis empowering.

I can only imagine that you find it disempowering because you are in conflict. I can tell from your writing that you are a sensitive, loving person. We are all here to discuss. And if you were comfortable in your choices, you would not feel disempowered no matter what anyone said.........no one can disempower you; only you can do that.

I'm not sure I agree with this.
Isn't this the way STS gain their bonus points? By controlling people - usually by disempowering them.
I also am aware of how disempowering my actions were on my partner (all be it totally unintentional) When I was trying to fix/help him, with what we both saw as 'his' problem.
I realised how I was compounding what 'I' thought of as 'his issue'.
I stepped back and I believed in his own power to help himself.... and almost overnight he did.
Our thoughts are powerful. They don't just affect ourselves.

As for your environment, this is where I completely depart from your stance. Why on earth would this stop you, because others don't support it? You are your own person, and stand in your own integrity. If you lived with an STS individual, would you comply to his/her wishes? It is easy to be a vegetarian for the most part (much harder to be vegan and raw). You just eat the plant food and not the meat from a meal. Let me add that the meal, should, in the first place, be healthy for all; so there should be enough food choices for you. You can supplement with green drinks and superfoods.

I get the impression that shemaya values the needs of her family and eating with them over her own desire to change her diet.


I'm also thinking about the love and intention that goes into preparing a meal for people you love. Food made to share, prepared with love and care has got to carry that energy with it.

[BrownEye]

I'm also thinking about the love and intention that goes into preparing a meal for people you love. Food made to share, prepared with love and care has got to carry that energy with it.

This is definitely a huge impact. Processed food that goes through the hands of an angry employee takes that anger right to the end buyer. This is something that bothers me in my job. Manufacturing millions of syringes a day and watching other workers that do not have the optimist attitude, and knowing that all of this anger and frustration of the worker is somewhat injected into the end users.

I had offered advice to the general managers on posting plaques of company received letters/feedback of happy customers as a way to boost morale and invoke pride into the work itself. Of course I was ignored.

[yossarian]

I still don't agree with Tenet Nosce. He has his experts and I have my experts. I think it's dangerous to tell fat people to listen to their body. The first thing they do is go and binge on junk carbs.

There is an internet psychic who used to tell people that and I would read the comments on her blog. She would tell fat people to listen to their body/intuition and the fat people would just go eat terrible food. I remember someone asked, "Mrs. Psychic lady, I did what you said but all the messages I got were to eat McDonalds, potato chips, and ice cream." Her response was that the person needed to "raise her vibration" first before asking the body. Of course, it's not clear at all how to do this. The dieter had already done all the techniques the psychic recommended and the result was a carb binge.

Looking within is the opposite of science. That's not science that's religion. I support looking within but not on scientific questions. On scientific questions, by definition, you're looking without.

I think it makes sense to try and confirm science through intuition if you are a person who follows your intuition, but ultimately the authority needs to be science if you want to be reasonable and give advice.

---

The body of knowledge I hold does not make me "superior" it makes me responsible. That includes speaking up when I see 25 grams of protein a day being made as general recommendations to be "more spiritual".

How loudly do I need to recant this position for you to get over it?

I understand there are many people who were harmed or feel abused by this statement.

I got the concept from medical professionals and biologists who claimed that 25g of plant protein has higher bioavailability and so is sufficient.

Since I'm not an expert, it's not something I would repeat today with the same enthusiasm I did in 2009.

You feel you are protecting humanity and this board by railing on this. I believe your motivation for cross-examining me is to show people that you are better trusted than me. I'm basically open to this.

Apparently you had a debate with my words 3 years ago. What kind of statement would I need to make now for you to conclusively win the debate?

[Diana]

We have discussed gratitude here before, but I will mention it. If one eats meat, yes, the gratitude you give as the Native Americans do is an acknowledgment of the circle of life, and your gratitude for the sacrifice an animal made to be food. The intention is there, and that's good. Remember though, that this was meant in a time when humans were part of that cycle, their bodies decomposed into the soil, or at least their ashes became part of the soil, which nourished the plants, which nourished the animals, etc.

Heya Diana

I seriously don't see us as detached from that. I feel very much in a body that shares in that cycle. Do you not feel part of our earth in that way too?

Heya, Andy

Yes, I feel a connection to the Earth.

I was just referring to the actual physical remains which feed the soil. Most humans are buried in coffins, or ashes in urns. In the coffins, human remains do nourish some insects.

We humans, as a species, at this point, are very detached from nature. Only some indigenous peoples are still one with nature. That doesn't mean an individual can't feel a connection, such as yourself.

So I think that is what bothers me most about this particular thread, I find it dis empowering.

I can only imagine that you find it disempowering because you are in conflict. I can tell from your writing that you are a sensitive, loving person. We are all here to discuss. And if you were comfortable in your choices, you would not feel disempowered no matter what anyone said.........no one can disempower you; only you can do that.

I'm not sure I agree with this.
Isn't this the way STS gain their bonus points? By controlling people - usually by disempowering them.
I also am aware of how disempowering my actions were on my partner (all be it totally unintentional) When I was trying to fix/help him, with what we both saw as 'his' problem.
I realised how I was compounding what 'I' thought of as 'his issue'.
I stepped back and I believed in his own power to help himself.... and almost overnight he did.
Our thoughts are powerful. They don't just affect ourselves.

STS cannot control you without you allowing it. You cannot control another without them allowing it.

Your power does not depend on another. And you cannot empower another (they empower themselves). It's like healing. Some healers, such as a chiropractor, facilitate conditions whereby the body can heal itself.

As for your environment, this is where I completely depart from your stance. Why on earth would this stop you, because others don't support it? You are your own person, and stand in your own integrity. If you lived with an STS individual, would you comply to his/her wishes? It is easy to be a vegetarian for the most part (much harder to be vegan and raw). You just eat the plant food and not the meat from a meal. Let me add that the meal, should, in the first place, be healthy for all; so there should be enough food choices for you. You can supplement with green drinks and superfoods.

I get the impression that shemaya values the needs of her family and eating with them over her own desire to change her diet.


I'm also thinking about the love and intention that goes into preparing a meal for people you love. Food made to share, prepared with love and care has got to carry that energy with it.

Certainly love and intention matter, and "light adds to the sum of light."

The way I see it is this: you can extend your love to your immediate world, and you can extend it to all. Extending it to all is a big idea, a big effort. I am not judging Shemaya, just pointing out the difference in choices.

It is a step to treat even one other entity with love and kindness and equality. The ideal, in my opinion, would be that the same love is extended to all things.

[@ndy]

STS cannot control you without you allowing it. You cannot control another without them allowing it.

Your power does not depend on another. And you cannot empower another (they empower themselves). It's like healing. Some healers, such as a chiropractor, facilitate conditions whereby the body can heal itself.

I admire your certainty (an I would go with you in that we defiantly have to on some level 'allow' it. )
Don't we often 'allow' on a diffrent level.

We interact with people all the time, it's a push/pull 'share' of energy as I see it. Isn't that the way we play behind the veil?
Unless we are very guarded I would think it's quite difficult for us not to effect other people? Otherwise what are we all doing here

[Diana]

STS cannot control you without you allowing it. You cannot control another without them allowing it.

Your power does not depend on another. And you cannot empower another (they empower themselves).

I admire your certainty (an I would go with you in that we defiantly have to on some level 'allow' it. )
Don't we often 'allow' on a diffrent level.

We interact with people all the time, it's a push/pull 'share' of energy as I see it. Isn't that the way we play behind the veil?
Unless we are very guarded I would think it's quite difficult for us not to effect other people? Otherwise what are we all doing here

We do interact. And, we do affect other people. Until we are all evolved enough to be "in the world, but not of it," we will continue to be unaware of all the choices we make, or be somewhere along the spectrum of awareness. This is what enlightenment is all about: becoming aware (enlightened).

Look at any situation in your life, and tell me that you don't choose how you see it, and deal with it. You are responsible, for instance, how you treat another person. That person is responsible for how they deal with it. I find that the more I grow, the less I take anything personally.

With regard to 2D animals, we are 3D evolving to 4D. As I see it, we are caretakers of our environment. This is a different dynamic that 3D humans dealing with 3D humans. All things are equal, yes, in the sense that nothing is more important than anything else. But animals are not evolved to the point where they can make the choices we do.

[Monica]

No- they are an observation, not a judgement. Your "seeing" them as a judgment is a judgement. Your "seeing" them as finger-pointing is a judgement.

??? When you do it, it's 'observation' but when a vegetarian does it, it's 'judgement'?

The body of knowledge I hold does not make me "superior" it makes me responsible.

Yes. Likewise, the body of knowledge the vegetarians hold does not make us "superior" it makes us responsible.

We just have a different body of knowledge than you do.

Why is it ok for you to speak up regarding your body of knowledge, but not ok for the vegetarians to do the same?

That includes speaking up when I see 25 grams of protein a day being made as general recommendations to be "more spiritual".

But if you wanted to challenge yossarian's statement about protein, why did you ignore my detailed post about protein?