What is the value of faith?

[zenmaster]

If faith is trust, then the question of 'should' or 'shouldn't' isn't really an option.

I'm not sure I understand why you offer this. Is not free will in play here?

Free will is in play, but there is no subject-object differentiation with 'faith' - it's that obvious. So discrimination doesn't come into play.

Just because I believe something doesn't mean that I can get it together to act on it. (Trust me.)

The type of 'faith' that we are talking about has nothing to do with believing in something. It is primary to the type of decisions we make involving actions. In other words it is the background or supports anything that may emerge in one's worldview in the first place.

So asking if 'free will' applies to 'faith' is like asking if we have a choice to deny something that is quite obviously ourselves. If you deny it, then that is not faith.

[abstrktion]

I just had to quote this part by Zenmaster because it rings so true to me. In my life, "hope" feels like an attachment to a specific desired outcome, while "Faith" is, well, exactly what Zenmaster says below:

This is why I asked the question, because the definition is subjective and people will think they are talking about the same thing otherwise.

Perhaps this is so for you, but for me it's definitely not "a hope that what I believe will come to pass". For me, hope is nothing but another attachment. Also, "what will come to pass" exists in a necessarily make-believe future. Combine those things and you have yet more transient desire, because that desire is the only thing that can sustain hope.

For me, one description of faith would be something like a recognition of current participation in a universal, infinite connection and continuity. This is not one's particular desires or expectations as 'hope' might engender.

LOVE that last part. Perfectly said, in my opinion.

Also, it is interesting that in talking of the Catalyst of the Spirit, RA says that it is usually called "Hope" but that Ra "would prefer to call [it] Faith"--it seems to me like this was a semantic distinction Ra felt was important. (Book IV, p. 51).

[Steppingfeet]

Could it be a poise of consciousness which encompasses (rather than transcends) a variety of levels of consciousness?

My understanding of transcendence is that it necessarily includes that which has been transcended.

For my money (or, "For my energy expenditure"), this gets to the heart of the value of faith. It's that inner knowing that trumps apparent reality and it's the courage to stand up in that knowing that conduces to increase of polarity.

But what distinguishes this inner knowing from psychosis or a simpler form of self-delusion?

Don't have enough personal knowledge of the various forms of psychoses to comment. I do however have an other's thought to offer.

In rereading some of my highlights in Ken Wilber's "Grace and Grit", I came across this conversation between him and his then wife, Treya.

TKW: ...I've often heard it said that the mystical vision could in fact be schizophrenic. How do you respond to that common charge?

KW: I don't think anybody doubts that a few mystics might also manifest some schizophrenic elements, and that some schizophrenics might also evidence mystical insights. But I don't know any authority in the field who believes mystical experiences are basically and primarily schizophrenic hallucinations. I know a fair number of nonauthorities who think so, and it's hard to convince them otherwise in a short space. So let me just say that the spiritual and contemplative practices used by mystics -- such as contemplative prayer or meditation -- can be fairly strong, but they simply are not strong enough to take wholesale numbers of normal, healthy, adult men and women and turn them, in the space of a few years, into floridly hallucinating schizophrenics. Zen Master Hakuin left behind him eighty-three fully transmitted students, who together revitalized and organized Japanese Zen. Eighty-three hallucinating schizophrenics couldn't organize a trip to the toilet, let alone Japanese Zen."

[Ankh]

Q’uo says: “To the Creator, you are always in paradise, but each of you is in an illusion which decries the apparent inaccuracy of our previous statement, and it is only by faith that you may feel that love, that acceptance, that forgiveness and that support. It is only by faith that you may continue standing when you feel that life has cut you off at the knees. It is only by faith that you can stay alive when you feel that your life is not worth the living.”

Woaw, loved that quote - "it is only by faith that you may feel that love, that acceptance, that forgiveness and that support"... It really feels so many times in this life - the feeling, or illusion, which is felt very real, to be cut off from everything. So I'd guess, faith is the answer...

Faith, then, is that conduit, doorway, or gateway through which the entity returns home to its source within; through which flows infinite consciousness into the finite

And I loved the sounds of these words... Faith is the gateway home...

I guess that it is, since Ra said that the indigo center, the center which is the gateway to the intelligent infinity, is also the center of faith.

Eighty-three hallucinating schizophrenics couldn't organize a trip to the toilet, let alone Japanese Zen.

[Ashim]

Gary - I have your number and location.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJj75IgsfWQ

[Steppingfeet]

I was reviewing a section in Carla's book "Living the Law of One 101" and came across this paragraph:

The indigo-ray energy center is the home of faith. Players keep this chakra open by refraining from self-doubt. The indigo- and blue-ray centers are also used by Players to access the gateway to intelligent infinity to do Lighthouse-Level work. We keep the whole energy body clear by doing balancing exercises daily.

(Note: She uses "player" synonymously with "seeker" in the book's frame of reference.)

Carla's reference to doubt as that which impedes faith reminds me of that scene in "The Neverending Story" where Atreyu has to pass the two sphinxes in his test of faith.

Any doubt or absence of self-worth on Atreyu's part will result in his getting toasted. : )

[Sacred Fool]

Carla's reference to doubt as that which impedes faith reminds me of that scene in "The Neverending Story" where Atreyu has to pass the two sphinxes in his test of faith.

Thanks for the reference to this film--I had never seen it before. My girlfriend & I found it on iTunes and enjoyed it very much...but I think maybe you owe me $3.99 now, GLB?

Putting humor aside (not really), the business of psychosis can, of course be organic in origin, but, to me, it also sounds as a warning bell regarding the incredible intensity of self-deception. That is, it can be an extreme case of our ordinary work-a-day incapacity to recognize our connection to source, no?

So, returning to faith... Here's a little morsel which might whet the appetite...

...it is unnecessary in terms of preparing the self for graduation from third density to penetrate the veil of forgetting. Indeed, it is far more important, in preparing for graduation from third density, that one come finally to the understanding that one knows nothing and can know nothing of the mystery that is the one infinite Creator. Reaching this level of humility and emptiness offers to the seeking student a peace and a confidence that are lacking when one is striving to know more and seek more deeply into the history of the self before this incarnation.

The veil of forgetting was put into place not in order that it may be penetrated but to set up the conditions for a life in which the choice of polarity and the continuing choices of polarity that follow such an initial choice might be played out without any possibility of proof. The choice of service-to-self or service-to-others polarity is intended to be made against the backdrop of unknowing so that one must literally take a leap of faith in order to choose how to respond to the catalyst of everyday life. In each situation where there is a decision to be made that has ethical overtones, the whole point of that veil of forgetting is to clear the canvas of any paint except that which you wish to apply in the present moment. Your choices, then, are made very cleanly—not because you feel there was karma from this or that previous lifetime or because of any other fact that you feel that you have come to know but because, by faith, you wish to choose your manner of being in a way that expresses your heart’s desire.

Ain't that last part a beautiful concept?

[Steppingfeet]

Thanks for the reference to this film--I had never seen it before. My girlfriend & I found it on iTunes and enjoyed it very much...but I think maybe you owe me $3.99 now, GLB?

Growing up in the 80's, it was a childhood favorite. And a recommendation does not constitute a pledge to reimburse.

Putting humor aside (not really), the business of psychosis can, of course be organic in origin, but, to me, it also sounds as a warning bell regarding the incredible intensity of self-deception. That is, it can be an extreme case of our ordinary work-a-day incapacity to recognize our connection to source, no?

There is an incredible potential for self-deception in any of life's endeavors, especially with regard to the consciousness of faith.

As Ra says - and as is echoed elsewhere in spiritual texts with talks of the fine razor's edge between the extremes - it is a "straight and narrow" path. The description of narrowness implies that slight deviation in either direction can rapidly lead one astray and into imbalanced states, especially when working with the increased and intensified power that the conduit of faith makes available.

Not understanding your question though about incapacity to recognize our connection to source.

[ansell]

Hope this helps:

My view of "faith" is evolving. Presently for me, faith is (within space/time) my trust in the "process" which the Logos has set in motion for the ultimate good of my evolving soul. Faith is more than a belief because it is rooted in a sort of spiritual intuition i.e. it is not based upon what my intellect understands or believes but upon what my heart center feels and intuits. This is why it is so important for us all to spend time seeking communion with the Creator in contemplation. Early morning works for me because my mind is not yet active upon the daily trivia.

I view faith as one for all of us because we are all a part of the same Divine One. Human divisions arise in the forms of opposing religions etc. not because of differences in the "experience" of faith but because of differences in intellectual interpretations about that experience. In Christiandom, for example, one's heart center is touched by the Holy Spirit wheras a Hindu may describe the same experience as a communion with the Love/Light.

Irregardless of definitions, w/o heart-center contact with an aspect or representative of Divine Mind, there can be (for me) no faith, but only an intellectual perspective or conjecture about the purpose, function, and destiny of my human soul.

---

[quote='Bring4th_GLB' pid='71220' dateline='1328808011']
Carla's reference to doubt as that which impedes faith reminds me of that scene in "The Neverending Story" where Atreyu has to pass the two sphinxes in his test of faith.

Thanks for the reference to this film--I had never seen it before. My girlfriend & I found it on iTunes and enjoyed it very much...but I think maybe you owe me $3.99 now, GLB?

Putting humor aside (not really), the business of psychosis can, of course be organic in origin, but, to me, it also sounds as a warning bell regarding the incredible intensity of self-deception. That is, it can be an extreme case of our ordinary work-a-day incapacity to recognize our connection to source, no?

So, returning to faith... Here's a little morsel which might whet the appetite...

...it is unnecessary in terms of preparing the self for graduation from third density to penetrate the veil of forgetting. Indeed, it is far more important, in preparing for graduation from third density, that one come finally to the understanding that one knows nothing and can know nothing of the mystery that is the one infinite Creator. Reaching this level of humility and emptiness offers to the seeking student a peace and a confidence that are lacking when one is striving to know more and seek more deeply into the history of the self before this incarnation.

The veil of forgetting was put into place not in order that it may be penetrated but to set up the conditions for a life in which the choice of polarity and the continuing choices of polarity that follow such an initial choice might be played out without any possibility of proof. The choice of service-to-self or service-to-others polarity is intended to be made against the backdrop of unknowing so that one must literally take a leap of faith in order to choose how to respond to the catalyst of everyday life. In each situation where there is a decision to be made that has ethical overtones, the whole point of that veil of forgetting is to clear the canvas of any paint except that which you wish to apply in the present moment. Your choices, then, are made very cleanly—not because you feel there was karma from this or that previous lifetime or because of any other fact that you feel that you have come to know but because, by faith, you wish to choose your manner of being in a way that expresses your heart’s desire.

Ain't that last part a beautiful concept?


Yes it speaks to the "heart" of the concept, faith.

[Sacred Fool]

Sorry about the long delay...been kinda busy...

By "connection to source" I was just referring (not so clearly, evidently) to the title of this forum: The Law of One, i.e., our hidden identity as the soul of creation, the pith of existence, All that Is.

I was just commenting that the obscuration of that connection to or identification as the All often has to do with self deception (meaning willful--though maybe unconscious--mis-identification) and, further, that insanity (which I'll define here as profound cognitive dis-orientation) strikes me as an extreme example of the work-a-day confusion (dis-orientation) which may prevent one from doing what is described in the quote above: by faith choosing to express that which is the deep heart's desire.

That's all. Take care.


PS: Okay, I guess you talked your way out of the $3.99 debt.

[ansell]

Yes, it speaks to the heart of the concept, faith.

---

Yes, very![/size][/font]

Carla's reference to doubt as that which impedes faith reminds me of that scene in "The Neverending Story" where Atreyu has to pass the two sphinxes in his test of faith.

Thanks for the reference to this film--I had never seen it before. My girlfriend & I found it on iTunes and enjoyed it very much...but I think maybe you owe me $3.99 now, GLB?

Putting humor aside (not really), the business of psychosis can, of course be organic in origin, but, to me, it also sounds as a warning bell regarding the incredible intensity of self-deception. That is, it can be an extreme case of our ordinary work-a-day incapacity to recognize our connection to source, no?

So, returning to faith... Here's a little morsel which might whet the appetite...

...it is unnecessary in terms of preparing the self for graduation from third density to penetrate the veil of forgetting. Indeed, it is far more important, in preparing for graduation from third density, that one come finally to the understanding that one knows nothing and can know nothing of the mystery that is the one infinite Creator. Reaching this level of humility and emptiness offers to the seeking student a peace and a confidence that are lacking when one is striving to know more and seek more deeply into the history of the self before this incarnation.

The veil of forgetting was put into place not in order that it may be penetrated but to set up the conditions for a life in which the choice of polarity and the continuing choices of polarity that follow such an initial choice might be played out without any possibility of proof. The choice of service-to-self or service-to-others polarity is intended to be made against the backdrop of unknowing so that one must literally take a leap of faith in order to choose how to respond to the catalyst of everyday life. In each situation where there is a decision to be made that has ethical overtones, the whole point of that veil of forgetting is to clear the canvas of any paint except that which you wish to apply in the present moment. Your choices, then, are made very cleanly—not because you feel there was karma from this or that previous lifetime or because of any other fact that you feel that you have come to know but because, by faith, you wish to choose your manner of being in a way that expresses your heart’s desire.

Ain't that last part a beautiful concept?