In regards to eating meat

[Monica]

NOTE: Not saying -you- personally do this, just speaking in general terms.

I added that after the fact, so you might have missed it.

I did miss it, so thank you! I already knew that because you had told me before, but I appreciate your thoughtfulness in reiterating it!

Like when John thinks Julie is 'self-righteous' when she asks the waiter for a vegetarian entree, even though Julie said nothing about John's choice of steak. Happens all the time.

True. As it also does happen that John and Julie are in Morton's Steakhouse, and Julie feels that, not only should Morton's be legally obligated to cater to her worldview, but that promulgating her vegan political platform in the middle of the restaurant actually cultivates "social awareness".

That's true too. And we are in agreement that that approach doesn't work. It just gets people annoyed, defensive, and angry.

Then, if John asks Julie why she's a vegetarian and she gives an honest answer, he accuses her of being 'holier than thou' and 'proselytizing.'

Then John is an a$$, and Julie would do well stop going on dinner dates with him. I will defer back to missed post #1180 for further details.

Oh but what if John is her boss? or a co-worker? or a brother? What if Julie is out with 5 other people from work, and they all start ganging up on her, telling her she should "go mow the lawn like the cows" and she's a 'crazy treehugger' and "their dogs eat better than she does" and don't let up, continuing to pick on her the entire half hour, laughing at her and totally disrespecting her?

This has happened to me several times. Once, I was at work and some co-workers came back from a bbq place and asked me if I wanted some ribs. They knew full well I was a vegetarian, but still, they pointed to a doggie bag, so I thought maybe it was going to get thrown away anyway. So I said, "well I don't eat meat but thanks anyway. I can take it home to my dogs if it's going to get thrown away."

They had a field day with that! They jumped all over me with jokes like "hahaha your DOG eats better than you do! haha!" and "so you're one of those treehuggers! That's what's wrong with the world - it's those crazy treehuggers!" About 5 or 6 of them. It was a lynching.

The sad part is, it wasn't the only time that happened. I said nothing to deserve that.

Later, I told the ringleader how offended I was. He happened to be black, so I compared what they did to what some racists might do to a black person. He got very defensive and said "there's no comparison" so I calmly explained to him that bigotry is bigotry, whether it's because of race, religion, of lifestyle. (which was further ironic because it was a commonly held suspicion that he was an in-the-closet gay.) He was very surprised that I actually had convictions about my diet. He thought it was just...well I don't know what he thought it was. Whatever he thought, that didn't excuse such rude behavior.

Then again, if Julie believes that she is spiritually superior to John by virtue of her meatless diet, then she is proselytizing.

I agree. Many people think they are spiritually superior for being a Christian, for being vegan, or whatever. The whole idea of being spiritually superior is contrary to Law of One principles.

If Julie shares that the reasons she is a vegetarian include increased sustainability of the planet, better health, and a reduction in violent behaviors, then she would be speaking truthfully, and from the heart.

That's what most of us do. But the fanatical fringe who go around blasting everyone in the face, give us a bad rep.

In which case, John no doubt would feel like an idiot sitting there with his steak. Or not. In which case, I will defer again back to post #1180.

Unfortunately, though, even when we do speak from the heart, the Johns often get defensive and start ridiculing us anyway.

I contend that if people were really comfortable with their choice to eat animals, they wouldn't get so hot and bothered when vegetarians voice their opinions.

That should go without saying. Yet it apparently needs to be said again and again.

Hey! Maybe the mods could get together and write a one-page disclaimer that gets automatically parsed at the beginning of every post. That will make it easier for others to remember the context of the forum, and to cut down on asschapping and butthurt.

After awhile, they'd probably just ignore it, if it was posted on every post.

They would just smile and say, "Oh that's nice. Go for it! Meanwhile I enjoy my steak."

The chicken soup was delicious!

Right! I have a niece whose husband is a hunter, and she often posts stuff on facebook about how 'delicious' the moose was, etc. This girl is one of the sweetest people. She does a lot of volunteer work, and is the epitome of what a Christian 'should' be, in my opinion. There is no doubt in my mind that her religious beliefs are that animals were 'given by God for man to use' so I know the paradigm she is living by. But you know what? She is doing so much good in the world, that I would never dream of saying a word to her about her husband's choice of how to feed his family. It just wouldn't serve any purpose. I have full confidence that when the time comes for her to recognize the suffering of the animals, she will 'get' it, because her heart is so open in other ways, that it will happen in due time.

Meanwhile, I sometimes post my vegetarian info on FB, and it's there for her to read, if she chooses to.

We coexist.

But I'm not going to refrain from posting my views, for fear of offending her. I really don't think she feels offended. She is secure in her world. And we have a lot of love and appreciation between us. I often tell her how much I admire the work she does.

[@ndy]

I'm strongly agreeing with 3dM's responce about accepting.
Even thugs in a slaughter house, and people who hurt kids.

Funny how we only have to polarise 51% possative.

To me, It's not about controll or 'fixing' other people or other things.

We work on ourselves.

[Diana]

This has happened to me several times. Once, I was at work and some co-workers came back from a bbq place and asked me if I wanted some ribs. They knew full well I was a vegetarian, but still, they pointed to a doggie bag, so I thought maybe it was going to get thrown away anyway. So I said, "well I don't eat meat but thanks anyway. I can take it home to my dogs if it's going to get thrown away."

This happens to me on a continual basis, even though I only respond when needed to the fact that I don't eat meat. Jokes about eating baby animals and the like. And before anyone says: don't hang with those people, they are everywhere and I can isolate myself only so much.

I equate this reaction to a like one I get if I mention that I haven't had a TV for almost 20 years. There is immediate defensiveness, and I theorize it's because of guilt. Not that I am judging them--they are judging themselves, possibly because they think they should be doing something else with their time.

---

I'm strongly agreeing with 3dM's responce about accepting.
Even thugs in a slaughter house, and people who hurt kids.

Funny how we only have to polarise 51% possative.

To me, It's not about controll or 'fixing' other people or other things.

We work on ourselves.

You may have missed some of this thread. It is not about "fixing" anybody. Rather, it's about answering a cry of suffering.

Then there is the issue of responsibility/accountability in perpetuating the cruelty through consumption of the product. Does that not matter?

[Monica]

Insert "men" for "hunters" and "woman" for "buck" and now I think we're on to something!

Just a thought... but perhaps if bellicose and warlike men stopped gaining near unlimited access to so many vaginas, their bellicosity and warlike behaviors would no longer be passed to the next generation.

Back in the old days, these men had to rape and pillage in order to spread their seed. Nowadays, all they need is a very large belt buckle/hat combo and legs start spreading like warm butter.

Cue the latest Disney teen star. In 3... 2... 1...

!!! I did miss this post! haha so true.

[@ndy]

You have missed much of the explanations. It is not about "fixing" anybody. Rather, it's about answering a cry of suffering.

No - I read that too

For the record, I'm mainly veggy buying organic local stuff.

I still totaly agree with the idea judging the guy in the slaughter house is not good for our spiritual wellbeing.

We grow most of our own veg, I chat to them
Water them, watch them grow from seed on our allotment. I love them.
The kids, help and my Hubby.

I then yank them out of the ground, I peal them roast them, boil them grate them.
I also thank them... I do meat I cook and eat too.

I think were all here to experiance what we need to, and if that's cheep food, factory farming, macdonalds..... then who am I to say that's wrong?
By thinking it's wrong.... dosn't it make it wrong in my world?

What if I accept it? Meby that is what them animals/people need at that point in there learning?

Who am I to judge what is and is not ok for anyone but me?

[Monica]

And before anyone says: don't hang with those people, they are everywhere and I can isolate myself only so much.

Yeah the meat-eaters have to put up with the occasional obnoxious vegan, but no matter how you slice it, vegetarians have it much worse because we are the minority, and we have to put up with not only the occasional obnoxious 'John' but watching people contribute to the cruelty, on a daily basis. Every single day, we have to face all the McDonald's and steakhouses as we drive around town, we have to watch our families, co-workers and friends cut up and eat our other friends, and we have to keep our mouths shut. We can't isolate ourselves. So we have to just swallow it, every single day, all day long.

On top of that, we have to ignore all those billboards with the cutesy cows and pigs, advertising cooked cows and pigs, and the graphic display of animal parts on tv ads, magazine ads, etc. We have to put aside the burden of pain we feel when we drive past a feedlot or a truck full of pigs on their way to the slaughter, which we see alot here in Texas. We have to walk past the body parts in the grocery store, displayed there like a bizarre horror movie morgue. We have to smile politely when the lady in line next to us at the grocery store piles her bloody animal body parts right next to our tomatoes. We have to try to avoid the wet spots.

We have to pretend the stench of cooked flesh doesn't bother us when we're trying to enjoy our own meal when in restaurants. We have to put on a fake smile when our friends say, "Yum yum this juicy burger is soooo delicious" and immediately suppress our urge to remind them that that is a piece of a being who could think and feel pain.

We have to listen to all the ooohing and ahhhing over the Thanksgiving turkey, if we want to be with our family during the holidays. We don't get to enjoy our food, because the stench of baking turkey is so overpowering. But what does that matter? We vegetarians don't have the right to experience clean air. We must not only accept the 'choices' of those who eat animals, but we must endure the smell of burning flesh on a regular basis.

Is anyone aware of PTSD, that people experience after witnessing children getting burned or mutilated in a major catastrophe? We endure it every day. We have to harden ourselves to it, close our hearts to it, just in order to function.

I think, overall, vegetarians do pretty damn well. Considering how we feel about cruelty to animals, we bite our tongues most of the time. We're not allowed to say what we really feel. We must harden our hearts, toughen our natural feelings of compassion, and suppress our true feelings, in an ironic forced denial, just to exist on this planet. We have to swallow our convictions. We should get some credit for that.

If occasionally we allow ourselves to let our guard down, and forget to turn the suppressors online, well, please cut us a little slack.

Not that I am judging them--they are judging themselves, possibly

Precisely.

It is not about "fixing" anybody. Rather, it's about answering a cry of suffering.

Precisely.

Note: Post has been edited.

[Tenet Nosce]

This has happened to me several times.

No doubt these men wanted to have sex with you, and were frustrated that you weren't enthralled by their belt buckles.

But the fanatical fringe who go around blasting everyone in the face, give us a bad rep.

In would appear that fanaticism is a common thread running through all failed social constructs, as well as failed attempts at social reform.

Unfortunately, though, even when we do speak from the heart, the Johns often get defensive and start ridiculing us anyway.

Johns think with their penises, and have bigger concerns than the ill-effects of meat eating. Syphilis comes to mind. Leave the Johns to the prostitutes. They were made for each other.

After awhile, they'd probably just ignore it, if it was posted on every post.

You're right. Hmm. Maybe in addition to a "Like" button we could have a "Butthurt" button and only those members in the top 10% of "Butthurts Given" and "Butthurts Received" will get the disclaimer.

---

Considering how we feel about cruelty to animals, we bite our tongues most of the time.

Out of curiosity, would you consider the consumption of sardines participating in cruelty to animals? I mean sardines grown/fished without causing harm to dolphins and the like.

[Diana]

Yeah the meat-eaters have to put up with the occasional obnoxious vegan, but no matter how you slice it, vegetarians have it much worse because we are the minority, and we have to put up with not only the occasional obnoxious 'John' but watching people contribute to the cruelty, on a daily basis. Every single day, we have to face all the McDonald's and steakhouses as we drive around town, we have to watch our families, co-workers and friends cut up and eat our other friends, and we have to keep our mouths shut. We can't isolate ourselves. So we have to just swallow it, every single day, all day long.

On top of that, we have to ignore all those billboards with the cutesy cows and pigs, advertising cooked cows and pigs. We have to put aside the burden of pain we feel when we drive past a feedlot or a truck full of pigs on their way to the slaughter, which we see alot here in Texas. We have to walk past the body parts in the grocery store, displayed there like a bizarre horror movie morgue. We have to smile politely when the lady in line next to us at the grocery store piles her bloody animal body parts right next to our tomatoes. We have to try to avoid the wet spots.

This made me cry. I have to keep so much at bay in order just to be here and not spiral down, thereby emanating unhappy/despair energy to the world. But that is the journey I'm on .

This discussion is so great for me precisely because it is an open (spiritually minded) forum where these things can be discussed. Otherwise, I am just doing that: watching, watching, feeling pain. I have obviously not evolved to the point where I can detach from it entirely. And I don't think ignoring the facts is detaching.

Thank you everyone.

[3DMonkey]

I only get McDonald's when we go to the zoo.

[Monica]

This is about whether or not eating animals is non conducive to polarization.

Thank you for clarifying what this is 'all about' to you.

That's not what it's about for me.

In my view, if I do something because I think it will help me polarize, then I have missed the meaning of polarization, and it will actually have the opposite effect, and reduce my polarization.

[@ndy]

Yeah the meat-eaters have to put up with the occasional obnoxious vegan, but no matter how you slice it, vegetarians have it much worse because we are the minority, and we have to put up with not only the occasional obnoxious 'John' but watching people contribute to the cruelty, on a daily basis. Every single day, we have to face all the McDonald's and steakhouses as we drive around town, we have to watch our families, co-workers and friends cut up and eat our other friends, and we have to keep our mouths shut. We can't isolate ourselves. So we have to just swallow it, every single day, all day long.

On top of that, we have to ignore all those billboards with the cutesy cows and pigs, advertising cooked cows and pigs. We have to put aside the burden of pain we feel when we drive past a feedlot or a truck full of pigs on their way to the slaughter, which we see alot here in Texas. We have to walk past the body parts in the grocery store, displayed there like a bizarre horror movie morgue. We have to smile politely when the lady in line next to us at the grocery store piles her bloody animal body parts right next to our tomatoes. We have to try to avoid the wet spots.

I think, overall, vegetarians do pretty damn well. Considering how we feel about cruelty to animals, we bite our tongues most of the time. We're not allowed to say what we really feel. We must harden our hearts, toughen our natural feelings of compassion, and suppress our true feelings, in an ironic forced denial, just to exist on this planet. We have to swallow our convictions. We should get some credit for that.

If occasionally we allow ourselves to let our guard down, and forget to turn the suppressors online, well, please cut us a little slack.

Not that I am judging them--they are judging themselves, possibly

Precisely.

I feel for that. Really I do I'm sorry it causes you pain.

I live with a veggy, he's 48, he's been veggy since he was 16 so 32 years.
Of late he's been saying to me.... I wish I could eat meat without feeling like Satan.
What stops him eating meat is 'guilt' - I think that's sad.
Another veggy friend I have a Christian in her late 30's.... she's also been veggy all her life.
She has an overwhelming earge to eat meat.... so much so that she's helping another friend care for there pigs on there small holding so she can 'justifie' eating mean again.

I find it sad that people don't eat meat out of guilt.
HAsn't earth evolved threw a cycle of death decay and consumption? I find it natural.

(( sorry for the spelling, I'm dyslexic and have no spell check on ipad))

[Monica]

This has happened to me several times.

No doubt these men wanted to have sex with you, and were frustrated that you weren't enthralled by their belt buckles.

But the fanatical fringe who go around blasting everyone in the face, give us a bad rep.

In would appear that fanaticism is a common thread running through all failed social constructs, as well as failed attempts at social reform.

Unfortunately, though, even when we do speak from the heart, the Johns often get defensive and start ridiculing us anyway.

Johns think with their penises, and have bigger concerns than the ill-effects of meat eating. Syphilis comes to mind. Leave the Johns to the prostitutes. They were made for each other.

After awhile, they'd probably just ignore it, if it was posted on every post.

You're right. Hmm. Maybe in addition to a "Like" button we could have a "Butthurt" button and only those members in the top 10% of "Butthurts Given" and "Butthurts Received" will get the disclaimer.

Oh Tenet thanks for the comic relief! I needed that laugh!

Out of curiosity, would you consider the consumption of sardines participating in cruelty to animals? I mean sardines grown/fished without causing harm to dolphins and the like.

Sardines are in the humanely slaughtered category, since they had a good life before getting killed.

You summed it up pretty well. I'll reiterate what you said, in my own words:

I care about humans more than animals.
I care about inhumanely slaughtered animals more than humanely slaughtered animals.
I care about humanely slaughtered animals more than animals raised for eggs or milk.
I care about animals in general more than plants.
I care about abused plants more than plants treated well.
I care about plants in general more than bugs or microbes.
I care about bugs more than microbes or rocks.

(I have righted many a beetle stuck on its back, and have saved many a wasp from being killed by those afraid of wasps. And spiders who creep into my house get escorted out, alive. But I don't worry about how many bacteria cells I unwittingly escort to bacteria heaven each time I take a breath. Nor do I have any intentions of joining PETA ROCKS and start protesting at the local rock quarry.)

The Creator probably cares about all equally. But I am human, and this is where I'm at.

I will pull the child out of the burning building before the dog, but I will go back for the dog too, if I can. But I will pull the dog out before I start looking around for houseplants. And I will certainly save the houseplants before I start worrying about whether there are any cockroaches hiding in the closets.

And I will be honest here and admit I won't bother saving the cockroaches.

Is this wrong? Maybe. But we have to be reasonable and pragmatic, while balancing that with compassion.

[Bring4th_Austin]

Now we all take a big deep breath

[Diana]

I live with a veggy, he's 48, he's been veggy since he was 16 so 32 years.
Of late he's been saying to me.... I wish I could eat meat without feeling like Satan.
What stops him eating meat is 'guilt' - I think that's sad.
Another veggy friend I have a Christian in her late 30's.... she's also been veggy all her life.
She has an overwhelming earge to eat meat.... so much so that she's helping another friend care for there pigs on there small holding so she can 'justifie' eating mean again.

I find it sad that people don't eat meat out of guilt.
HAsn't earth evolved threw a cycle of death decay and consumption? I find it natural.

You find death, decay, and the consumption of it natural. That may be so. But that doesn't mean it's meant to continue. All things evolve. We all contribute either by consciously or unconciously participating.

Your friends feel guilted into not eating meat . . . what a mess. They should eat meat then. This is like a priest who feels guilty for having sexual feelings. Look where that leads.

I feel sorrier for the animals being mistreated, since they apparently don't have a say in it, than the conflicted people of whom you speak. As for your friend who is caring for the pigs and still feels guilty, why does she?

[Monica]

I feel for that. Really I do I'm sorry it causes you pain.

Thank you!

My pain is nothing compared to what the animals endure.

What stops him eating meat is 'guilt' - I think that's sad.

Why is that sad? Doesn't guilt have a purpose?

Another veggy friend I have a Christian in her late 30's.... she's also been veggy all her life.
She has an overwhelming earge to eat meat.... so much so that she's helping another friend care for there pigs on there small holding so she can 'justifie' eating mean again.

She is obviously conflicted. Maybe the diet was imposed on her.

I have a 23-year-old son who has never had a bite of meat in his life. I didn't give him the choice to eat meat, just like I didn't give him the choice to smoke cigarettes. But my husband and I were very low-key about it. We didn't make a big deal about it. It was just the way we lived, and we explained to him why.

But when he was older, of course he had the choice. He chose to stay vegetarian.

I can see how someone who was raised veg with an iron fist, might want to rebel against that.

I find it sad that people don't eat meat out of guilt.

Guilt has a purpose. Another name for guilt is conscience.

HAsn't earth evolved threw a cycle of death decay and consumption? I find it natural.

You find what natural? Eating something dead? I assume you aren't referring to the cruelty that you find 'natural'...?

[3DMonkey]

I don't care about animals.

[Monica]

I feel sorrier for the animals being mistreated, since they apparently don't have a say in it, than the conflicted people of whom you speak. As for your friend who is caring for the pigs and still feels guilty, why does she?

Agreed. The animals getting tortured trumps a bit of discomfort by those who knowingly support that tortured.

(Make no mistake: Factory farms torture animals. No other word will do here.)

I don't understand why people want to avoid guilt. Guilt serves a purpose. Healthy remorse is how our Higher Self tells us, "hey pay attention...what you're doing isn't good and you know it."

If we already learned our lesson and have made amends, then we can let go of the guilt. Hanging on to guilt after we've changed isn't healthy, but ignoring guilt isn't healthy either. Guilt should be recognized and action taken to correct the wrong.

[Diana]

I only get McDonald's when we go to the zoo.

This is exactly the sort of joking/provoking I was talking about.

[Monica]

I don't care about animals.

You have made that abundantly clear.

I am curious: Why are you participating in this discussion, then?

---

I only get McDonald's when we go to the zoo.

This is exactly the sort of joking/provoking I was talking about.

I don't think he's joking, Diana.

---

Now we all take a big deep breath

?

[3DMonkey]

I don't care about animals.

You have made that abundantly clear.

I am curious: Why are you participating in this discussion, then?

I am very conflicted on the issue of eating meat I would very much like to begin a dialogue as to why one should not or should be able to consume meat.

In this day and age and being surrounded by many peers in my age group (late teens early 20's) it has become quite popular to be vegetarian and even vegan. The reasons often given are quite understandable I feel such as not harming or killing other animals and to also resist the horrible treatment and entrapment that occurs when animals must be confined to small quarters and fed cornmeal constantly.

But my concern is that if I am to eat what I like to call "fare treatment" meat am I still being harmful to life itself? Is the act of eating the meat of an animal alone reason enough to not eat it? If so what makes animals so special compared to plants?

Being a botanist I may be a bit biased but I feel that plants are just as aware and sentient as animals, though they may not express it as we do. They can not cry out in pain but the sap seeping from a tree's wound still coagulates much like our own blood.

So how can it be ok to eat plants, life forms who may be quiet but living nonetheless, and not animals.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not on a mission to say you can't eat anything at all, rather the opposite. Is the consumption of animals not part of the continuing cycle of life, the passing on of energy? A bear would just as soon eat me as I would a chicken, and this is nature, this is natural. In some parts of the world there are hardly any plants and natives must live solely on cow products (meat, milk, and even blood) to attain nutrients. Are they to be considered harmful to the life cycle simply because of the residence?

Sorry for the long first post, this has just been weighing on my mind quite heavily lately.

[Bring4th_Austin]

I don't care about animals.

You do not see them as other-selves?

[3DMonkey]

As many times as I've expressed that plants have feelings in this thread is as many times as I've been told I can't say the opposite about animals.

[Monica]

As many times as I've expressed that plants have feelings in this thread is as many times as I've been told I can't say the opposite about animals.

No one has told you that you "can't" say anything.

What you're saying now though is contradictory. You just said you don't care about animals. Now you say that you wanted to say 'the opposite' about animals, ie. that they don't have feelings?

The way it's worded, it looks like you're saying plants have feelings but animals don't? If so, that doesn't make sense at all to me.

Or are you saying you don't care about animals because plants have feelings too? If so, that doesn't make sense to me either. Why argue to hurt animals, if you care about plants?

And if you don't care about animals, then what does it matter anyway?

[3DMonkey]

As many times as I've expressed that plants have feelings in this thread is as many times as I've been told I can't say the opposite about animals.

No one has told you that you "can't" say anything.

What you're saying now though is contradictory. You just said you don't care about animals. Now you say that you wanted to say 'the opposite' about animals, ie. that they don't have feelings?

The way it's worded, it looks like you're saying plants have feelings but animals don't? If so, that doesn't make sense at all to me.

Or are you saying you don't care about animals because plants have feelings too? If so, that doesn't make sense to me either. Why argue to hurt animals, if you care about plants?

And if you don't care about animals, then what does it matter anyway?

Seriously? I really think you choose to specifically NOT listen to my words.

You have numerous posts going on and on about plants don't feel, they are not high enough spirits to matter. I say my view about plants and you go on and on about how I don't make sense.

[Diana]

You have numerous posts going on and on about plants don't feel, they are not high enough spirits to matter. I say my view about plants and you go on and on about how I don't make sense.

I don't think Monica ever said that plants don't feel .

[Bring4th_Austin]

Were you trying to make a point with an ironic statement Monkey? I must say I'm also confused right now. I am on your side of the line as far as plants go. I treat my crops with the same respect and reverence as my animals.

[3DMonkey]

You have numerous posts going on and on about plants don't feel, they are not high enough spirits to matter. I say my view about plants and you go on and on about how I don't make sense.

I don't think Monica ever said that plants don't feel .

back up a bit

---

Were you trying to make a point with an ironic statement Monkey? I must say I'm also confused right now. I am on your side of the line as far as plants go.

trying. I fail many times at that . (I actually sympathize with unity100 on that point because I think he "tried" too without being taken as he intended)

What was confusing, exactly?

---

You have numerous posts going on and on about plants don't feel, they are not high enough spirits to matter. I say my view about plants and you go on and on about how I don't make sense.

I don't think Monica ever said that plants don't feel .

The lettuce sits happily in my frig until I eat it, at which time its life force merges with mine which I can only imagine might be similar to those dwelling in a Social Memory Complex.

Maybe not. Just that they are perfectly happy experiencing mastication.

[Bring4th_Austin]

No worries, there's no more confusion! Please know that I don't feel that you don't care about animals because of your views on meat consumption.

[Monica]

Seriously? I really think you choose to specifically NOT listen to my words.

Please stop the antagonism, Monkey. I have often replied to your posts, point-by-point, while you ignore most of my points. You have absolutely no basis to say I don't listen to your words.

You have numerous posts going on and on about plants don't feel, they are not high enough spirits to matter. I say my view about plants and you go on and on about how I don't make sense.

1. You are grossly misrepresenting what I've said.
2. I've never said you don't make sense. I said your words don't make sense to me. That means I don't understand them. The very fact that I am explaining, means I am trying to understand them. This means I am listening, and reaching out to you, in search of understanding.
3. Just because someone doesn't agree with you, doesn't mean they aren't listening.
4. If you prefer, I can cease replying to your posts. But please don't accuse me of "specifically not listening to you." That is antagonistic.

[3DMonkey]

When you break down my words, you redefine them every time to represent some form of your version of things.

For instance, I wrote a post with a very literal olive branch to support abridgetoofar's endeavors. It was the one post you decided to invoke forum law on me. This is a great indicator that you aren't listening.

And the fact that you find my pointing that out to be antagonist underlines my belief that you don't want to listen to me.