Quite interesting - Mayan day/nights and earth periods

[3DMonkey]

Abridgetoofar, for what it's worth, you've explained yourself extensively. Many members have, many times.

[zenmaster]

if, an allowance like 40 years was possible, this would total to an entire 70 years from 1981, and Ra would not state that anything that extends lifespan of an entity would be useless, in the subject of 'integratron' machine.

That statement is certainly not necessarily true, or even more likely than something as the following.
Given harvest is a time/space phenomenon. And when we die, we go to time/space 'environment':

- Extending lifespan does nothing to ensure that death will not occur due to a variety of factors.
- If a 4D environment with lowered veil reduces catalytic action, then it would certainly not be beneficial to remain in 3D body as learning would be stifled.

Therefore it could easily be the case that there is a certain point 'harvest' where after death, we walk those steps and determine further incarnational needs. Loads of catalyst and 3D incarnations before 'harvest', and little catalyst and fewer and fewer 3D incarnations as yellow-ray support goes into potentiation. This scenario, while perhaps boring, is completely congruent with the material, and the most parsimonious IMHO. After death we have a grand overview what lessons need to be learned and simply go to the appropriate space/time with the appropriate body.

[Bring4th_Austin]

you know that continually making attributions to something being someone else's 'interpretation' doesnt change linguistics or structures of language ?

That doesn't mean that language can only be interpreted one way, especially when you want to take a statement and turn it into something else, such as "as a clock strikes the hour" into "in a moments time." That's not the only thing that statement can mean, it's simply means it's the only thing you're willing to accept that statement to mean for whatever reason.


Unity, you are doing nothing but reiterating your own interpretation (using sound logic, I'm not denying that) and insisting it is the only valid interpretation, and dismissing all other interpretations based only on the fact that it is not congruent with your own. I'm not trying to discredit your interpretation or logic, I am showing that there are other valid interpretations, and the fact that you won't accept them doesn't mean they don't exist. Unfortunately, your non-acceptance of other interpretations blinds you to that fact, and discussion at that point becomes moot.

Luckily, it will be easy for you to prove Ra is not ambiguous in their words. Simply tell me exactly what is going to happen, when it is going to happen, and how we are going to know it happened. Then, after that date comes, we will know for sure you are right.

The difference between our viewpoints would be that after that date, if nothing happens, you will be forced to dismiss the Ra material because the only interpretation you saw did not come true, and you will not be able to re-interpret or re-arrange your understanding of the material.

So, tell me, what exactly is going to happen and how am I going to know it happened? Take away the ambiguity.

[unity100]

if, an allowance like 40 years was possible, this would total to an entire 70 years from 1981, and Ra would not state that anything that extends lifespan of an entity would be useless, in the subject of 'integratron' machine.

That statement is certainly not necessarily true, or even more likely than something as the following.
Given harvest is a time/space phenomenon. And when we die, we go to time/space 'environment':

- Extending lifespan does nothing to ensure that death will not occur due to a variety of factors.
- If a 4D environment with lowered veil reduces catalytic action, then it would certainly not be beneficial to remain in 3D body as learning would be stifled.

there are important stuff you are missing while making the above assumptions :

4d and 4d vibrations do not interest 3d entities. those who are going to stay into 4d vibrations, are currently in 3-4d transitionary bodies. they are already harvested, and they dont have business with the harvest. they are told to be already here for 4d lessons.

veil is a mechanic in 3d in time/space, we were told. then this means that, when someone is vibrating around the 3d spectrum on a veiled 3d planet, the veil would be active for that entity in time/space, in between conscious and subconscious. this would affect any entity to any degree - even if a 4d entity may be inhabiting a 3-4d transitionary body, with the definition we have s/he would still get affected by the veil, even if it would probably be to a different degree than the 3d entity vibrating in 3d spectrum. the opposite is also true - a 3d entity going up to vibrating in 4d frequencies may have reduced effect from veil, but how this would act in conjunction with its 3d body is a different matter. we were told 3d electrical fields couldnt stand full 4d vibrations.

one major mishap you are making is the assumption you make about less importance of extended lifespan due to harvest being a time/space phenomenon. this is a dangerously short sighted judgment - because it forgets the very reason for a physical incarnation and an 3d existing in the first place :

entities incarnate into 3d or other physical densities to manifest and evolve through experiences. otherwise, there would not be a need to incarnate at all, and there would only be a time/space existence. yet, because it is faster to learn/teach in physical manifestations, such a concept like incarnation exists - the entities live in physical existence, and their experiences get distilled into their mind/spirit complex. overall resultant progress identifies the advancement of the entity. therefore, even if you are going to do the harvest in time/space, incarnation time on the planet does matter. because, the progress one accumulates is the determining factor in the harvest.

this is especially important in the light of the fact that Ra has mentioned that the entities on this planet go through spiritual childhood until around age 60-70. this means, even as of now, our lifespans are way too short for incarnational experience on this planet. entity matures and goes over trivial things and reaches proper grasp of the 3d existence it is in, and then s/he dies, because lifespan doesnt suffice.

so, if there was such a time period that would stretch from 1981 towards 70 years into the future, it would be very helpful to enable entities with longer lifespans. so that, they could go through the spiritual childhood Ra talks about until ages 60-70, and then they would have a real chance in making a choice that would reflect in the time/space harvest you talk about.

Therefore it could easily be the case that there is a certain point 'harvest' where after death, we walk those steps and determine further incarnational needs. Loads of catalyst and 3D incarnations before 'harvest', and little catalyst and fewer and fewer 3D incarnations as yellow-ray support goes into potentiation. This scenario, while perhaps boring, is completely congruent with the material, and the most parsimonious IMHO. After death we have a grand overview what lessons need to be learned and simply go to the appropriate space/time with the appropriate body.

that scenario, if was completely congruent with the material, would not necessitate endless numbers of social memory complexes descending upon this planet at this particular nexus in time, a mere 20-30 years' vicinity of a given date of 2011, and attempt to communicate information and provide energy in hopes of increasing harvest. the message is universal - from nameless group a to sts-apparent imposter group z, ALL of the spiritual channeled material, are concentrated on increasing imminent harvest.

in your comfortable scenario there would not be a need to push so hardly to the point of almost violating free will due to the abundance of direct channeled material being overloaded all over the place.

Unity, you are doing nothing but reiterating your own interpretation and insisting it is the only valid interpretation, and dismissing all other interpretations based only on the fact that it is not congruent with your own. I'm not trying to discredit your interpretation or logic, I am showing that there are other valid interpretations, and the fact that you won't accept them doesn't mean they don't exist. Unfortunately, your non-acceptance of other interpretations blinds you to that fact, and discussion at that point becomes moot.

and you are just reiterating your interpretation of me interpreting, even more so than i could ever possibly be reiterating myself.

existence of interpretations do not make them valid. there has been interpretations so wild to the point of redefining sts to not be self serving, in prior discussions in this forum. had existence of an interpretation necessitated acceptance, we would end up accepting that sts is not sts and sto is not sto and many more different quirky conclusions.

so far, the interpretations you or some others have brought evaluates to nothing more than selective ignoring of accuracy of the information given, probably based on biases. the problem is that, the suppliers of these interpretations DO vouch for, and trust the accuracy of given information in other subjects. i didnt see them contesting or 'reinterpreting' the dates given by Ra regarding any other thing, from maldek to first manifestation date of green vibrations on this planet, or anything else. in all of these cases these people accepted the dates given as accurate, and did not attempt to reinterpret drastic error margins into these dates.

and suddenly, specifically and especially for this case, there is a need for hell-bent error margin introduction and wild reinterpretation.

why ?

was Ra so accurate in all the other dates, so able and so precise, but suddenly got stupefied and lost grasp of time/space continuum while answering these simple 2-3 q/as that, such a need came into being ?

definitely not. even if it had happened so, ra would return and correct the mistake they made, like in all other cases it happened.

or the selective ignorance of simple language constructs :

don asks whether harvest will be spread out, or happen at a specific date. the answer IS a specific date. this cant be any simpler than that. no period is given, like 5 to 10 years, or probability of 1 to 30 years. a certain date is given. yet however, suddenly there is the need to so drastically 'reinterpret' this plain, simple, flat answer to the point of making some certain year number a period of time. there wasnt any period of time. there was a certain year given.

you are trying to push the opposite - that a specific, flat, precise answer given to a specific, flat, open question can be reinterpreted so wildly that it could mean the OPPOSITE of the question asked. excuse me, but there is no way to accept such a 'reinterpretation'. with that kind of logic, you could as well go and reinterpret the answer Ra gives when asked what entity they are and make them come up totally something else.

Luckily, it will be easy for you to prove Ra is not ambiguous in their words. Simply tell me exactly what is going to happen, when it is going to happen, and how we are going to know it happened. Then, after that date comes, we will know for sure you are right.

we are not discussing what is going to happen. we are discussing the answer Ra gave to a specific question, and the need to reinterpret it to be compatible with people's biases and then accept that to be valid.

the question was simple, the answer was simple, and regardless of what happens on this planet tomorrow, even if the planet gets destroyed by a freak, sudden nuclear war, and therefore harvest is not able to happen like it didnt happen in maldek, the question and answer given to that question at that particular nexus in 1981, will remain the same.

a question was asked regarding harvest being spread out or happening at a certain date. the answer given was 2011. how would harvest happen, or what could prevent harvest, or any kind of other LIKELY possibility vortices, are different discussions each on their own.

The difference between our viewpoints would be that after that date, if nothing happens, you will be forced to dismiss the Ra material because the only interpretation you saw did not come true, and you will not be able to re-interpret or re-arrange your understanding of the material.

So, tell me, what exactly is going to happen? Take away the ambiguity.

then let me take away one ambiguity for you :

entities which were able to contact intelligent infinity BEFORE, or, with the facilitation of harvest, will be able to leave their incarnation at any given time, in any fashion they like.

actually, this is currently possible for any entity which has been able to contact infinite intelligence through any means even as of now. however, during harvest the gates to intelligent infinity will open, there will be harvesters aiding, and any entity that can do so will be able to contact intelligent infinity provided that they are harvestable. gates of intelligent infinity being open, before you ask, would mean contact with intelligent infinity becoming much more readily available. ( apparently to the point of marshaling endless number of social memory complexes to aid a 3d planet so that they can make use of that availability )

as for your customary question that would follow immediately after this, and goes in the form of 'do we even know what contacting intelligent infinity is', this is something noone can tell/explain to someone else - because, like told in the material, this is something totally different from person to person, though, unmistakable when it happens. two people who contacted intelligent infinity could sit facing each other and tell what they experienced for years and still not come near to telling each other their individual experience.

simply put, the least that will happen will be that any entity who contacted intelligent infinity will be (and is, even as of now) able to leave this incarnation and start a new incarnation in 4d or any other octave of experience their vibrations qualify for.

[zenmaster]

there are important stuff you are missing while making the above assumptions :

4d and 4d vibrations do not interest 3d entities. those who are going to stay into 4d vibrations, are currently in 3-4d transitionary bodies. they are already harvested, and they dont have business with the harvest. they are told to be already here for 4d lessons.

What? I didn't miss that, I explicitly included that.

veil is a mechanic in 3d in time/space, we were told. then this means that, when someone is vibrating around the 3d spectrum on a veiled 3d planet, the veil would be active for that entity in time/space, in between conscious and subconscious.

time/space IS the subconscious. There IS no veil after death - veil is due to a particular space/time attachment to time/space (where the 'mind' is). You see all choices, all experience, all progress up to that point. That's the whole point of the evaluation and assessment of further incarnational needs.

this would affect any entity to any degree - even if a 4d entity may be inhabiting a 3-4d transitionary body, with the definition we have s/he would still get affected by the veil, even if it would probably be to a different degree than the 3d entity vibrating in 3d spectrum. the opposite is also true - a 3d entity going up to vibrating in 4d frequencies may have reduced effect from veil, but how this would act in conjunction with its 3d body is a different matter. we were told 3d electrical fields couldnt stand full 4d vibrations.

full 4d vibrations is gradual we are told.

one major mishap you are making is the assumption you make about less importance of extended lifespan due to harvest being a time/space phenomenon. this is a dangerously short sighted judgment - because it forgets the very reason for a physical incarnation and an 3d existing in the first place :

entities incarnate into 3d or other physical densities to manifest and evolve through experiences. otherwise, there would not be a need to incarnate at all, and there would only be a time/space existence. yet, because it is faster to learn/teach in physical manifestations, such a concept like incarnation exists - the entities live in physical existence, and their experiences get distilled into their mind/spirit complex. overall resultant progress identifies the advancement of the entity.

Yes, I did not forget all of that.

therefore, even if you are going to do the harvest in time/space, incarnation time on the planet does matter. because, the progress one accumulates is the determining factor in the harvest.

Never said it didn't matter. I thought I was explicitly pointing that out.

this is especially important in the light of the fact that Ra has mentioned that the entities on this planet go through spiritual childhood until around age 60-70. this means, even as of now, our lifespans are way too short for incarnational experience on this planet. entity matures and goes over trivial things and reaches proper grasp of the 3d existence it is in, and then s/he dies, because lifespan doesnt suffice.

The lifespans are not the ideal duration. So what? Plenty of catalyst to process.

so, if there was such a time period that would stretch from 1981 towards 70 years into the future, it would be very helpful to enable entities with longer lifespans. so that, they could go through the spiritual childhood Ra talks about until ages 60-70, and then they would have a real chance in making a choice that would reflect in the time/space harvest you talk about.

Lifespan is really an effect of the collective decisions of the 'racial mind'. It's just the way they see themselves, the creation, and each other. Regardless, we know that progress is made even if it is not ideal or as harmonious as possible.

Therefore it could easily be the case that there is a certain point 'harvest' where after death, we walk those steps and determine further incarnational needs. Loads of catalyst and 3D incarnations before 'harvest', and little catalyst and fewer and fewer 3D incarnations as yellow-ray support goes into potentiation. This scenario, while perhaps boring, is completely congruent with the material, and the most parsimonious IMHO. After death we have a grand overview what lessons need to be learned and simply go to the appropriate space/time with the appropriate body.

that scenario, if was completely congruent with the material, would not necessitate endless numbers of social memory complexes descending upon this planet at this particular nexus in time, a mere 20-30 years' vicinity of a given date of 2011, and attempt to communicate information and provide energy in hopes of increasing harvest.

Why not?

the message is universal - from nameless group a to sts-apparent imposter group z, ALL of the spiritual channeled material, are concentrated on increasing imminent harvest.

Yes, albeit typically in an incestuous, nebulous, transitory manner which has little to do with actual learning itself - the whole purpose of polarization.

in your comfortable scenario there would not be a need to push so hardly to the point of almost violating free will due to the abundance of direct channeled material being overloaded all over the place.

Why not? I don't see the connection. The channeled entities speak in various ways about 'finding the heart of self'. There is nothing I have suggested that diminishes or negates such an opportunity. I am at a loss as to why you need to over complicate things.

[βαθμιαίος]

I don't really have a horse in the harvest race. As I've said before, I wouldn't really be surprised either way. But I do feel compelled to point out that Ra did say "all are harvested," in this quote:

6.15 Questioner: What is the length, in our years, of one of these cycles?

Ra: One major cycle is approximately 25,000 of your years. There are three cycles of this nature during which those who have progressed may be harvested at the end of three major cycles. That is, approximately between 75 and 76,000 of your years. All are harvested regardless of their progress, for during that time the planet itself has moved through the useful part of that dimension and begins to cease being useful for the lower levels of vibration within that density.

[3DMonkey]

Followed by "during that time"

[βαθμιαίος]

Followed by "during that time"

[Tenet Nosce]

Although I do believe that specific dates from the material are somewhat dubious, [Ra specifically says that dates are particularly prone to getting lost in translation, and fumbles with dates on at least one occasion I can think of off the top of my head] I have to say that interpreting the harvest as anything but a discrete event, where there is a clear demarcation between "before" and "after" seems like quite a stretch to me.

If/when the planet opens to intelligent infinity, I assume it would be a macrocosmic reflection of what occurs when a human opens to intelligent infinity. Typically there will be two greetings: one positive and one negative. There are four general paths from here. 1) The human goes back to sleep, and for all intents and purposes the opening never happened; 2) The human engages the positive greeting; 3) The human engages the negative greeting; or 4) The human acknowledges both greetings, and seeing past the facade, does not engage either one, but continues beyond.

This would directly correlate to the four possibilities of: repeating 3D, moving to 4D positive, moving to 4D negative, or returning to 5D or 6D if that is one's "home" density.

This intelligent energy offers a type of clock. The cycles move as precisely as a clock strikes your hour. Thus, the gateway from intelligent energy to intelligent infinity opens regardless of circumstance on the striking of the hour.

The fourth density is, as we have said, as regularized in its approach as the striking of a clock upon the hour. The space/time of your solar system has enabled this planetary sphere to spiral into space/time of a different vibration.

Ra: You must see the Earth, as you call it, as being seven Earths. There is red, orange, yellow, and there will soon be a completed green color vibratory locus for fourth-density entities which they will call Earth. During the fourth-density experience, due to the lack of development of fourth-density entities, the third-density planetary sphere is not useful for habitation since the early fourth-density entity will not know precisely how to maintain the illusion that fourth-density cannot be seen or determined from any instrumentation available to any third-density.

Thus in fourth-density the red, orange, and green energy nexi of your planet will be activated while the yellow is in potentiation along with the blue and the indigo.

Ra: I am Ra. At this time the cosmic influxes are conducive to true color green core particles being formed and material of this nature thus being formed. However, there is a mixture of the yellow-ray and green-ray environments at this time necessitating the birthing of transitional mind/body/spirit complex types of energy distortions. At full activation of the true color green density of love the planetary sphere will be solid and inhabitable upon its own and the birthing that takes place will have been transformed through the process of time, shall we say, to the appropriate type of vehicle to appreciate in full the fourth-density planetary environment. At this nexus the green-ray environment exists to a far greater extent in time/space than in space/time.

We are in the transitional period now. Sometime in the immediate future, third density Earth will go inactive, and will stay inactive until Earth's new 4D inhabitants learn how/why to remain invisible to 3D.

I am having great difficulty seeing how this could be interpreted to mean anything different. In my experience, those who forward a "gradualist" scenario are reacting negatively to the possibility of being abruptly separated from loved ones.

Somewhat ironically, it appears to be easily overlooked that the possibility of being abruptly separated from loved ones is always present. We call that possibility death. Accidents, disease, suicide, murder. These things happen all the time. Every day in fact.

[hogey11]

But that's the whole point, imo... The harvest is the moving on from 3D to 4D, and therefore there will be different dynamics as I see it. There is the personal dynamic of walking the 'stairway of light', but there is also the space/time reality of the end of a cycle. If the lower vibrations are no longer of use and the higher are becoming so instead, we should start to see a shift in our trajectory - away from confusion. Therefore, I also agree with B; I think we will all be proven as right. I can see all the scenarios somewhat coming to fruition with the exception of a catastrophic event. Some of high vibrations will probably feel the harvest point as an overwhelming event, while others won't notice a thing. The world will change overnight as it will stay the same, depending on where you are and how you see things. It can be as subtle or as obvious as we want it to be, just like anything else. It is the energy and the attention that we put into it that determines it's worth. This is one of the reasons I get so jazzed about a positive harvest experience; I feel a pull to create that intention. Some like Unity100 find that to be a weakness as if I am only fooling myself or trying to manipulate the outcome, but I would say to that: So what??? The STS elite most likely spend a great deal of energy focusing and creating the intention needed for their own selfish acts; why should I refrain from doing the same in the name of service to others? At some point we have to move beyond the intellectualism and start digging into the heart of why we're all here (imo)... We want something better. There is nothing wrong with that.

[3DMonkey]

In my experience, those who forward a "gradualist" scenario are reacting negatively to the possibility of being abruptly separated from loved ones.

That's funny because I see those as the ones "seeing past the facade". I see no reason to attribute emotion to the "gradualist" theory. I used to have difficulty seeing it too. Admittedly, I was of the "abrupt" scenario because I didn't want to consider that I had to wait any longer, and I also wanted to 'proof' the material one way or the other. I clouded my own perception of the material to fit the "abrupt/instantaneous" scenario. The only reason I'm pointing this out is because it is apparent that avoidance of the possibility can go both ways.

[unity100]

time/space IS the subconscious. There IS no veil after death - veil is due to a particular space/time attachment to time/space (where the 'mind' is). You see all choices, all experience, all progress up to that point. That's the whole point of the evaluation and assessment of further incarnational needs.

it is correct that there is an analogy in between time/space and subconscious. however this piece of information does not relate to what we are discussing.

there is no need to state that those in time/space would be included in harvest, if all harvest would happen in time/space when an entity entered time/space fully through death.

full 4d vibrations is gradual we are told

no, we were told that the alignment of this planet to full 4d vibrations was gradual. we were told that the vibrational spectrum of the planet was true color green since 1937.

The lifespans are not the ideal duration. So what? Plenty of catalyst to process.

some of the questions you ask, like this, are already answered stuff. it is curious that you are missing the question-reply-question chains.

lifespans are not ideal durations. therefore, if there was so much time like 70 years from 1981 until harvest, increasing entities' lifespans would be a viable method of allowing the population to remain incarnated long enough to enter spiritual adulthood. therefore, ra would not say that there would be no point to increasing lifespans in 1981.

Why not?

simply because this is not the only planet that is going through 3d, leave aside this is not the only planet that needs any kind of aid. endless numbers of planetary entities concentrating their efforts on a single planet at a certain time, therefore, not being able to use that effort elsewhere, needs to have logic and urgency behind it.

Yes, albeit typically in an incestuous, nebulous, transitory manner which has little to do with actual learning itself - the whole purpose of polarization.

the polarization, or any other spiritual act, choice, experience, especially in 3d, needs to happen by entities living experiences pertaining to that density. not by entities coming in, and talking about polarization and trying to convince entities to go one way or the other.

if the latter is happening - and it is - it means there is an urgency and reason to do so.

If/when the planet opens to intelligent infinity, I assume it would be a macrocosmic reflection of what occurs when a human opens to intelligent infinity. Typically there will be two greetings: one positive and one negative. There are four general paths from here. 1) The human goes back to sleep, and for all intents and purposes the opening never happened; 2) The human engages the positive greeting; 3) The human engages the negative greeting; or 4) The human acknowledges both greetings, and seeing past the facade, does not engage either one, but continues beyond.

contacting intelligent infinity is not something that happens if you cant do it. gateways to infinite intelligence opening does not mean all entities will contact intelligent infinity. those who can - and therefore harvestable - will be the ones who will be able to get in that contact. this is what comes out from explanations of intelligent infinity, intelligent infinity contact, and harvest so far.

and there is no polarity in contacting intelligent infinity. intelligent infinity is what it is, unpolarized. the polarization of the entity itself would already be apparent and refined beforehand for the entity to be able to go up in energy centers high enough to contact intelligent infinity in the first place too.

so, in the event of an entity contacting intelligent infinity through its own means before the harvest, or, during harvest when the gate to intelligent infinity opens, will be an event of an already polarized and high vibration entity contacting intelligent infinity.

the question of what those who arent polarized enough, or arent vibrating in sufficiently high energy centers is another question. one would venture to say that these entities would probably experience little, maybe various high emotions or queer situations due to the gates of intelligent infinity being opened and there being high vibrational energies abound, but, that is just a hypothesis at this point. there may as well other mechanics be at work.

But that's the whole point, imo... The harvest is the moving on from 3D to 4D,

the harvest is not moving on from 3d to 4d. the harvest is defined as an event in which gates to intelligent infinity open, and entities approach vibrational sources until a point at which they have to stop. this determines their advancement.

This is one of the reasons I get so jazzed about a positive harvest experience

so you think a situation in which nothing gets disturbed, changed, is positive ? does that even fit in with the definition of 'positive/negative' at all ?

basically, you are living in a society in which the less fortunate (85% of pop even in developed countries) have to toil for survival, whereas a 5% of the population not only gets their labors, but also runs and rules them, 937 million people undernourished, and hundreds of millions directly in famine (as of now) and then dubbing the continuance of this situation, a 'positive' thing ?

this is why i am naming such approaches personal comfort biases. you and the people you are concerned with around you are well set. and you are wanting the situation to continue. even if a billion people on your planet are directly hungry, billions more are suffering through innumerable means, most of which have been made accepted as 'normal facts of life'. in your 'positive 4d transition' experience (which you rather incorrectly name as harvest), tens of thousands will die out of hunger every day.

and no, 'suddenly lights will lit up and everything will change' is a more far fetched prospect than everyone just speedily dying or the like. it totally ignores the biases of spirit and advancement of mind/spirit.

............................

as a sidenote btw, 'anomaly of harvest' in the process of death, which passes at a certain point is rather thought-inducing by the way. it may be so that for the harvest process by outside sources to happen, death may be necessary. coupled with the necessity of 3-4d transitionary bodies, and 3d bodies not being able to withstand 4d in full, reinforces some other prospect.

[Tenet Nosce]

That's funny because I see those as the ones "seeing past the facade". I see no reason to attribute emotion to the "gradualist" theory. I used to have difficulty seeing it too. Admittedly, I was of the "abrupt" scenario because I didn't want to consider that I had to wait any longer, and I also wanted to 'proof' the material one way or the other. I clouded my own perception of the material to fit the "abrupt/instantaneous" scenario. The only reason I'm pointing this out is because it is apparent that avoidance of the possibility can go both ways.

Personally, I have taken specific steps in my life over the last fifteen years to put myself in a position of minimal investment in something "happening" between now and the end of 2012.

The larger point that I think gets missed is that, from a time/space perspective, all of a person's "loved ones" are already on the "other side". From their perspective, they are waiting for you, and probably wondering why you are taking so long to arrive!

And even if it is the choice or destiny of another entity to repeat 3D, or even to have their consciousness completely annihilated and returned to 1D, it is all part of the process.

For a student of the Law of One, or to whatever small degree of being "in the know", this is where the rubber meets the road. We can wax all philosophical about "All Is One" but then we have to actually swallow the pill, and that is not always so comfortable. Where we might see an opportunity of cosmic proportions, others may not see anything, or even consider us to be delusional.

These others are also our parents, siblings, children, etc. We find it easier to accept all the talk about manipulation of humanity through bloodlines and elitist doctrines through groups like the Illuminati. But things get squirrley when comes to the manipulation we all agree to when it comes to our own immediate family.

We are all enslaved to a system which compels us to prioritize service to one's family over all others. Service to the bloodline. This is the fundamental control tactic that has kept humanity from polarizing properly. The idea that there is some sort of universal duty to "take care of one's own" no matter how negative, controlling, or a hopeless case the other person may become.

Getting back the "gradual harvest" scenario, I think this concept my play a large role in why one might prefer to view it as a gradual process. This is because one is subconsciously hoping that they will have "more time" for their loved ones to "make it". I can't help but point out that this is a very linear 3D way of looking at the process.

It sounds more to me like you have just let go of attachment to any particular scenario rather than being squarely in the "gradualist" camp. But maybe I'm missing something.

[3DMonkey]

Was the last sentence for me?

No, I'm not attached to a scenario. Within me, I do have imaginings of how things will play out, of course.

But, to be in the "gradualist" camp has more to do with interpretation of the LOO text. It leaves wiggle room for both ideas, obviously. But, I think putting all the details of the material on a scale weighs heavy on the gradualist side.

[Tenet Nosce]

Was the last sentence for me?

Yes.

But, to be in the "gradualist" camp has more to do with interpretation of the LOO text. It leaves wiggle room for both ideas, obviously. But, I think putting all the details of the material on a scale weighs heavy on the gradualist side.

In consideration that Ra specifically says in that the planet will be fully fourth density in approximately thirty years, and then twice chooses to use the analogy of the clock striking upon the hour, I really don't see anything that would counterbalance this much less having the preponderance of evidence heavily weighted on the gradualist side.

[3DMonkey]

It's been said many times, and it is a sound observation. The analogy is 'the decade of 1990 arrived precisely at the striking of the hour, like clockwork.' This doesn't mean that the entire decade took an hour to complete.

[Richard]

In my experience, those who forward a "gradualist" scenario are reacting negatively to the possibility of being abruptly separated from loved ones.

That's funny because I see those as the ones "seeing past the facade". I see no reason to attribute emotion to the "gradualist" theory. I used to have difficulty seeing it too. Admittedly, I was of the "abrupt" scenario because I didn't want to consider that I had to wait any longer, and I also wanted to 'proof' the material one way or the other. I clouded my own perception of the material to fit the "abrupt/instantaneous" scenario. The only reason I'm pointing this out is because it is apparent that avoidance of the possibility can go both ways.

Or conversely, it could be said that those favoring the abrupt scenario are reacting negatively to the possibility of dealing with another few hundred years of catalyst.

I tend towards the gradualist camp mainly because I just have a hard time believing that all this can change in an instant.

Richard

[unity100]

That's funny because I see those as the ones "seeing past the facade". I see no reason to attribute emotion to the "gradualist" theory. I used to have difficulty seeing it too. Admittedly, I was of the "abrupt" scenario because I didn't want to consider that I had to wait any longer, and I also wanted to 'proof' the material one way or the other. I clouded my own perception of the material to fit the "abrupt/instantaneous" scenario. The only reason I'm pointing this out is because it is apparent that avoidance of the possibility can go both ways.

Personally, I have taken specific steps in my life over the last fifteen years to put myself in a position of minimal investment in something "happening" between now and the end of 2012.

The larger point that I think gets missed is that, from a time/space perspective, all of a person's "loved ones" are already on the "other side". From their perspective, they are waiting for you, and probably wondering why you are taking so long to arrive!

And even if it is the choice or destiny of another entity to repeat 3D, or even to have their consciousness completely annihilated and returned to 1D, it is all part of the process.

For a student of the Law of One, or to whatever small degree of being "in the know", this is where the rubber meets the road. We can wax all philosophical about "All Is One" but then we have to actually swallow the pill, and that is not always so comfortable. Where we might see an opportunity of cosmic proportions, others may not see anything, or even consider us to be delusional.

These others are also our parents, siblings, children, etc. We find it easier to accept all the talk about manipulation of humanity through bloodlines and elitist doctrines through groups like the Illuminati. But things get squirrley when comes to the manipulation we all agree to when it comes to our own immediate family.

We are all enslaved to a system which compels us to prioritize service to one's family over all others. Service to the bloodline. This is the fundamental control tactic that has kept humanity from polarizing properly. The idea that there is some sort of universal duty to "take care of one's own" no matter how negative, controlling, or a hopeless case the other person may become.

Getting back the "gradual harvest" scenario, I think this concept my play a large role in why one might prefer to view it as a gradual process. This is because one is subconsciously hoping that they will have "more time" for their loved ones to "make it". I can't help but point out that this is a very linear 3D way of looking at the process.

It sounds more to me like you have just let go of attachment to any particular scenario rather than being squarely in the "gradualist" camp. But maybe I'm missing something.

very well and clearly put. especially the bold part. bravo.

[Tenet Nosce]

It's been said many times, and it is a sound observation. The analogy is 'the decade of 1990 arrived precisely at the striking of the hour, like clockwork.' This doesn't mean that the entire decade took an hour to complete.

I did find this session with L/Leema that speaks of harvest in more gradual terms:

http://llresearch.org/transcripts/issues..._0727.aspx

Within me, I do have imaginings of how things will play out, of course.

So I am curious to know what your imaginings are. What does it look like for people living on the 3D earth sphere, as others are incrementally harvested to the 4D sphere? I mean, are people just going to start blinking out of existence meanwhile Monday Night Football continues to air weekly, and the presidential elections unfold? Or what?

---

Or conversely, it could be said that those favoring the abrupt scenario are reacting negatively to the possibility of dealing with another few hundred years of catalyst.

That's true. But then what is the point of Ra bringing it up? Life would be just a series of days like any other days and the message would have been more like, "Do your best, and we'll see you on the other side when you die!"

I tend towards the gradualist camp mainly because I just have a hard time believing that all this can change in an instant.

I agree it boggles the mind. However I will make two observations.

1) We have just lived through 6000 years of recorded history during which none of the fundamentals have changed. Humans are basically no different now then they were then as regards our warlike and controlling behaviors. So there is no reason to assume that another 6000 years would bring any different results. Point being, I have a harder time believing that all this will change gradually over time, based on the historical evidence of the human race.

2) Our perceived reality changes in an instant all the time. Most notably would be when passing to and from the dream state.

[3DMonkey]

It's been said many times, and it is a sound observation. The analogy is 'the decade of 1990 arrived precisely at the striking of the hour, like clockwork.' This doesn't mean that the entire decade took an hour to complete.

I did find this session with L/Leema that speaks of harvest in more gradual terms:

http://llresearch.org/transcripts/issues..._0727.aspx

Within me, I do have imaginings of how things will play out, of course.

So I am curious to know what your imaginings are. What does it look like for people living on the 3D earth sphere, as others are incrementally harvested to the 4D sphere? I mean, are people just going to start blinking out of existence meanwhile Monday Night Football continues to air weekly, and the presidential elections unfold? Or what?

We need to die to be harvested. I don't think anything drastically noticeable will happen. One day there wasn't electricity. The next day, there was. The idea of living with electricity moved through time and space like a wave.

[AnthroHeart]

I just hope my mind doesn't go to 4D while my body is still in 3D and I just think I'm there.

[3DMonkey]

Don't get me mixed up. For a single person, one day, electricity "was.". But not for the sphere.

---

I just hope my mind doesn't go to 4D while my body is still in 3D and I just think I'm there.

LOL. I'd be okay with that. It's the other way around that seems more hideous.

[Tenet Nosce]

We need to die to be harvested. I don't think anything drastically noticeable will happen. One day there wasn't electricity. The next day, there was. The idea of living with electricity moved through time and space like a wave.

You are overlooking the obvious. If the process is gradual, then there would be a progressive DECREASE in the population over time. This would qualify as something "drastically noticeable".

[Nyu]

Im still kind of confused about the idea of being harvested. ra says the harvest will be complete by the end of next year, and it is understood that you die when you are harvested, and most people here seem to want to be in the harvest, but why? do you think that there will be some global event where all the people that are over 51% STO will suddenly disappear? that doesn't seem likely, and tbh while I'm massively excelarating my own evolution, I'm not ready to be "harvested" if it means not being able to finish my experiences here first. It also doesn't make sense to me that there is the promise of us having a beautiful new world and peace after 2012 if all the good people will be gone. can anyone fill in some blanks for me?

[AnthroHeart]

The process of death could be completely transparent. Maybe suddenly we find our self in 4D without realizing we had died. In that case I don't think I'd mind.

[3DMonkey]

We need to die to be harvested. I don't think anything drastically noticeable will happen. One day there wasn't electricity. The next day, there was. The idea of living with electricity moved through time and space like a wave.

You are overlooking the obvious. If the process is gradual, then there would be a progressive DECREASE in the population over time. This would qualify as something "drastically noticeable".

No, I don't think it would be drastically noticeable. It would be gradually accepted as normal.

[unity100]

Im still kind of confused about the idea of being harvested. Ra says the harvest will be complete by the end of next year, and it is understood that you die when you are harvested, and most people here seem to want to be in the harvest, but why? do you think that there will be some global event where all the people that are over 51% STO will suddenly disappear?

actually, in the scenario you portray, those vanishing would be any entity which was not harvested before - ie the ones who were harvested and in this planet in 3-4d transitionary bodies.

that doesn't seem likely, and tbh while I'm massively excelarating my own evolution, I'm not ready to be "harvested" if it means not being able to finish my experiences here first. It also doesn't make sense to me that there is the promise of us having a beautiful new world and peace after 2012 if all the good people will be gone. can anyone fill in some blanks for me?

the reason would be because harvest, a cosmic event, cannot wait for you. it happens when its time comes, and this is part of the reason why all these social memory complexes are trying to increase the harvest it seems.

[Nyu]

I did read somewhere that you just move to 4d and don't even really notice, and I hope that's what its like - I feel ready for that, and I feel the heaviness of the city vibrations now, like I am vibrating higher above it (which is why being around nature has become so important to me lately), and relationships, both good and bad have been super-polarizing lately too, I've let so many people fall away and have also found more and more people who are awakening coming into my every day life too and we have profound appreciation for each other. I guess the rest of it on a planetary level is still unknowable until it happens and then when it does happen it will be like "oh yes, of course!".

[3DMonkey]

" it will be like "oh yes, of course!"."

I think this is accurate, even for the "unaware" entities

[AnthroHeart]

Nyu, so not noticing this moving to 4D, could then we be in 4D with an illusion of 3D for some time till we realize?

Or will our manifesting powers be pretty immediate? Perhaps the beginning of 4D isn't too much different than the end of 3D (minus the bad stuff)?

Maybe it will be like a dream where we can breathe under water, and we're thinking "it can be done!"

I just know that with my current 3D mind I wouldn't want to have 4D powers cause it would probably turn into a hell rather quickly if every thought manifested immediately. At least might freak me out a bit.