The mysterious nature of time

[Confused]

I found some interesting excerpts from a book on the interfacing aspect of TIME --

source: http://www.holmerarts.com/rick/aztec.htm

Excerpt from the first chapter entitled The Sacred Calendar:

There is an explanation for everything, or so the ancient Aztec, Toltec and Maya believed. The citizens of those great civilizations looked to religious scholars to explain the meaning of life and the reasons for all events. Generations of shaman-priests devoted their lives to recording and analyzing every imaginable occurrence, and they discovered that both celestial and terrestrial history repeats itself through finite cycles of time. These fundamental repetitive patterns were distilled into a calendar that the Aztecs called their tonalpoualli. This calendar was central to interpreting and planning their secular and spiritual lives; and over time - because of its mystical predictive power - it became sacred to them.

One of the many traditional beliefs about the sacred calendar is the causal link between peoples' birth dates and their personality, psyche and fate. Like natal astrology in the Western World, conditions associated with the day of birth influence the fundamental aspects of a person’s character and development. The causal mechanism for astrologers is the relative position of our solar system’s planets and the physical forces they exert on the newborn. For Mesoamericans, however, explanations do not involve physical influences but are purely transcendental and metaphysical. They believe that everything in existence is intrinsically spiritual, including time itself. Spiritual energy is the core of every animate and inanimate entity - from rocks, mountains, rivers, wind, rain, plants, and animals to human beings - otherwise they would not exist. Time progresses therefore it is also real, and it is perceived and tallied as the succession of discrete and definable days.

Each consecutive day is a distinct blend of pure spiritual energy that comes and goes in predictable cycles influencing everything in existence, from the fate of nations to the destiny of a newborn. Time is the interface between the supernatural and natural worlds - it is the gateway though which powerful spiritual forces manipulate and influence the providence of all. However, the passage of time is not a perpetual, self-sustaining system. It requires a continuous source of fuel to keep the succession of days rolling on, and this is provided by the physical and emotional sacrifices of human beings who are repaying a debt to the supernatural world for their original creation. Without sufficient contributions of human spiritual energy, time will stop and the sun will cease to rise. The secrets to understanding the mystical nature of time and its symbiotic relationship to all existence are encoded in the sacred calendar. Therefore, to understand the calendar is to understand the very essence of traditional Mesoamerican philosophy

[zenmaster]

What we identify as "time" and "space" are inherently the exact same thing, just like yin and yang. There is no difference.
Our minds are geared towards psychological identification of emergent properties, which forms a duality. Ra used the conceptualizations of Samuel Alexander, as he had worked out the most primary and simple idea of space/time duality in "Space, Time, And Deity".
o Thus "space" and "time" are separated due to some imposed reference.
o Conscious consideration of one aspect makes it distinct at the expense of the other. We tend to be able to focus only from part to whole or from whole to part.
o That which we derive the very concept of "space" is our idea of that which is linear, discrete, separating, differentiating (masculine principle).
o Similarly, the concept of time is derived from that which is circular, cyclical, whole, and integrating (feminine principle).
o Feeling and intuition are temporal while thinking and sensation are spatial.

What is interesting is that in 3rd density the objective or spatial component of mind seems to be emphasized at the expense of the temporal component of mind. This contributes to the separating experience (the veil) that the mystics (like Krishnamurti) have transcended to some degree. Non-dual states (of "post transpersonal") are also examples of transcending these "asymmetric default settings".

[3DMonkey]

What we identify as "time" and "space" are inherently the exact same thing, just like yin and yang. There is no difference.
Our minds are geared towards psychological identification of emergent properties, which forms a duality. Ra used the conceptualizations of Samuel Alexander, as he had worked out the most primary and simple idea of space/time duality in "Space, Time, And Deity".
o Thus "space" and "time" are separated due to some imposed reference.
o Conscious consideration of one aspect makes it distinct at the expense of the other. We tend to be able to focus only from part to whole or from whole to part.
o That which we derive the very concept of "space" is our idea of that which is linear, discrete, separating, differentiating (masculine principle).
o Similarly, the concept of time is derived from that which is circular, cyclical, whole, and integrating (feminine principle).
o Feeling and intuition are temporal while thinking and sensation are spatial.

What is interesting is that in 3rd density the objective or spatial component of mind seems to be emphasized at the expense of the temporal component of mind. This contributes to the separating experience (the veil) that the mystics (like Krishnamurti) have transcended to some degree. Non-dual states (of "post transpersonal") are also examples of transcending these "asymmetric default settings".

This helps bring the duality or dichotomy together. It helps me comprehend them working simultaneously. S/t and t/s, that is.

[Confused]

o That which we derive the very concept of "space" is our idea of that which is linear, discrete, separating, differentiating (masculine principle).
o Similarly, the concept of time is derived from that which is circular, cyclical, whole, and integrating (feminine principle).

Dear zen, as I was reading the post of yours, and especially the above two lines, the following sentence from the LOO came to my mind (from 2.6) --

The proper alignment is the head pointed twenty degrees north-by-northeast. This is the direction from which the newer or New Age distortions of love/light, which are less distorted, are emanating, and this instrument will find comfort therein.

Ra unites the essential nature of both space and time there in that shaded statement, in my opinion. The new age distortions (or energies) were emanating from a particular point in space with respect to earth, and were gathering strength in terms of establishing the new age now (time). I would like to have your thoughts on it, even if broad. I sort of researched around that online and what I found personally for myself could be useful in understanding The Harvest process as well.

---

Hi, 3. Looks like you are focused on integrating the dualities

[zenmaster]

As far as I know, that statement is not related specifically to the nature of space and time. The energies to which Ra was referring are analogous to the familiar magnetic lines of 'force', which are also directional according to the position of two poles. Apparently, the Earth takes in-streaming energy from the sun and distributes it in a geo-magnetic manner. Or at least it did at that time. Perhaps it is less directional or more spatially distributed now. But directionality of the energy would imply locality or space/time.

Off topic, but regarding harvest time, have you noticed people being 'nicer' or more considerate lately? Just wondering.

---

BTW, have any of you read Carl Jung's work on psychological types? Interestingly, some time ago Peter Collins explained to me that "...it was in a short book by one of his followers Jolande Jacobi that I found mention of the fact that Jung intended his four functions as an explanation, not only of psychological behaviour, but also in some way of the physical nature of space and time." Also, "...In dynamic terms thinking, sensation, feeling and intuition mutually inetract with each other (and have no meaning in the absence of each other)." Just like space and time have no meaning apart from each other.

[Confused]

As far as I know, that statement is not related specifically to the nature of space and time. The energies to which Ra was referring are analogous to the familiar magnetic lines of 'force', which are also directional according to the position of two poles. Apparently, the Earth takes in-streaming energy from the sun and distributes it in a geo-magnetic manner. Or at least it did at that time. Perhaps it is less directional or more spatially distributed now. But directionality of the energy would imply locality or space/time.

Very good scientific points, zenmaster. I am not much of a science aficionado, and thus would appreciate any good points from knowledgeable people.

But I personally think there is more to the North/North-East than what just first meets the eye. That was piqued when I watched the following --

The Cygnus Mystery

I believe there could be a direct connection to Harvest and evolution into 4th density there, when you intersect the information in the video with illuminations from the LOO. A case of connecting the dots.

ps: there could annoying short inserted commercial at the top of the video, before the actual subject matter starts. If you do choose to watch the complete thing, please do convey your opinions. And your observation about people getting nicer was interesting, with respect to Harvest. Why do you say so?

[zenmaster]

I'll watch it.

And your observation about people getting nicer was interesting, with respect to Harvest. Why do you say so?

Because it is just one of those unusual feelings that people often report experiencing on these forums, but one that doesn't seem to come from 'me'.

[Confused]

Because it is just one of those unusual feelings that people often report experiencing on these forums, but one that doesn't seem to come from 'me'.

LOL!! zenmaster. You have a very good wry sense of humor, in my opinion. I always admired you for your ability to stick to basics through (perceived) sarcasm many times.

As far as not coming from 'you': as Ra says in 54.7 --

If you will penetrate the nature of the first distortion in its application of self knowing self, you may begin to distinguish the hallmark of an Infinite Creator, variety. Were there no potentials for misunderstanding and, therefore, understanding, there would be no experience.

[zenmaster]

Watched the Cygnus Mystery. I must say he makes a compelling case for the recognition of Cygnus as a source of some kind of transcendent energy, in the ancient cultures. Not sure it relates to the same energy that Ra spoke about, however.

[Raman]

What we identify as "time" and "space" are inherently the exact same thing, just like yin and yang. There is no difference.
Our minds are geared towards psychological identification of emergent properties, which forms a duality. Ra used the conceptualizations of Samuel Alexander, as he had worked out the most primary and simple idea of space/time duality in "Space, Time, And Deity".
o Thus "space" and "time" are separated due to some imposed reference.
o Conscious consideration of one aspect makes it distinct at the expense of the other. We tend to be able to focus only from part to whole or from whole to part.
o That which we derive the very concept of "space" is our idea of that which is linear, discrete, separating, differentiating (masculine principle).
o Similarly, the concept of time is derived from that which is circular, cyclical, whole, and integrating (feminine principle).
o Feeling and intuition are temporal while thinking and sensation are spatial.

What is interesting is that in 3rd density the objective or spatial component of mind seems to be emphasized at the expense of the temporal component of mind. This contributes to the separating experience (the veil) that the mystics (like Krishnamurti) have transcended to some degree. Non-dual states (of "post transpersonal") are also examples of transcending these "asymmetric default settings".

This helps bring the duality or dichotomy together. It helps me comprehend them working simultaneously. S/t and t/s, that is.

They are reciprocals of motion...space/time includes 3 dimensions of space and clock time, time-space includes the 3 dimensions of time for a total of six. Then matter (space/time) and energy are simply different aspects of motion...inward/outwards.

Apparently we have to be in both places at least with chemical body in space time and when not, in time-space.

[zenmaster]

Just to confuse things, if you notice, Larson's space-time = Ra's time/space, and time-space = space/time.

[3DMonkey]

What we identify as "time" and "space" are inherently the exact same thing, just like yin and yang. There is no difference.
Our minds are geared towards psychological identification of emergent properties, which forms a duality. Ra used the conceptualizations of Samuel Alexander, as he had worked out the most primary and simple idea of space/time duality in "Space, Time, And Deity".
o Thus "space" and "time" are separated due to some imposed reference.
o Conscious consideration of one aspect makes it distinct at the expense of the other. We tend to be able to focus only from part to whole or from whole to part.
o That which we derive the very concept of "space" is our idea of that which is linear, discrete, separating, differentiating (masculine principle).
o Similarly, the concept of time is derived from that which is circular, cyclical, whole, and integrating (feminine principle).
o Feeling and intuition are temporal while thinking and sensation are spatial.

What is interesting is that in 3rd density the objective or spatial component of mind seems to be emphasized at the expense of the temporal component of mind. This contributes to the separating experience (the veil) that the mystics (like Krishnamurti) have transcended to some degree. Non-dual states (of "post transpersonal") are also examples of transcending these "asymmetric default settings".

This helps bring the duality or dichotomy together. It helps me comprehend them working simultaneously. S/t and t/s, that is.

They are reciprocals of motion...space/time includes 3 dimensions of space and clock time, time-space includes the 3 dimensions of time for a total of six. Then matter (space/time) and energy are simply different aspects of motion...inward/outwards.

Apparently we have to be in both places at least with chemical body in space time and when not, in time-space.

I made note because something in my "root" subconscious was making connections when I read it.

[Raman]

Just to confuse things, if you notice, Larson's space-time = Ra's time/space, and time-space = space/time.

I noticed that, somehow it never bothered me.

[3DMonkey]

Should just say "over here" and "over there"

[zenmaster]

The problem with Larson's system is it's 'Yang' oriented with Euclidean geometry necessarily being used to interpret both spatial and temporal reference systems. Of course, since yin = yang, that's quite valid, but I believe it will ultimate cause unnecessary difficulty - like trying to 'square the circle'.

In an interesting dialog with Ilexa Yardley, author of "Conservation of the Circle as Absolute Intelligence", she writes:

We are what we are observing and experiencing...all circles in time and space. We are everything we observe, from a slightly different (circular) perspective.

Yes, one iteration of a circle is a harmonic vibration...but any two points form a circle, because, and this is the big insight, all lines are the diameter of some circle...so circles are caused, and causing circles, and that's really all there is to it.

So part of her idea is that any two points form a circle. With scalar motion in the Reciprocal System, unit-space and unit-time are 1 dimensional and therefore could be completely defined using just 2 points, although given the Euclidean geometry context that Larson provides in his descriptions, we can't help but impose a 3d-box interpretation of the Natural Reference System (NRS).

(the photon is not the most basic'circle'...the circle (in form) is....

The most basic circle, is a (circular interpretation of) translation itself - which is the equivalent of nothing (in the Reciprocal System, this is the "progression"). Also, the "circle" is not only form - it is the function of the cycle, the basis for continuity and concepts involving integration.

In the same manner, and at the same level, the "line" is what makes things discrete or seperating or heirarchical, and the device (i.e. thinking faculty) used to objectify experience and to create utility. The "line" is where we get a sound from a tree falling in a forest with no one to hear it.

Are all things are inherently neutral with regards to spatial or temporal qualitative nature? No, because all things (even sub atomic particles) have a subjective element (which necessarily means a corresponding objective element) as part of their ontological status. This subjective nature is the basis for "choice" and the multiplicity of reference systems. Larson refered to this "choice" as "random" behavior.

Fundamentally, what we impose as an interpretive framework usually involves a combination of the two most basic forms of circle and line, and a coupling of two reference systems which are both subjectively and objectively oriented. As far as I know, this is an explanation of why we can not know a ding an sich.

---

So for me, a more intuitive way of looking at 'motion' is

o The most fundamental motion possible is translation, which can be both rotational and linear, depending on which side of the fence you want ('over here' or 'over there')
o "Translation", in those initial two forms, is what constitutes the building block of motion. Then you get a rotational projection of a linear translation for the "integrative" view and a linear projection of rotational translation for the "differentiating" view.
o A particle is the limiting case of the wave, the wave is the limiting case of a particle. Then on to more complexity.

---

When considered in its 1st density form only, "Body" of the m/b/s construct *is* physical motion (which Larson's system of theory is attempting to describe).

---

With the Hermetic dictum "as above, so below", above = mind, below = body:

"The Matrix of the Body may be seen to be a reflection in opposites of the mind; that is, unrestricted motion."
"The body is the creature of the mind and is the instrument of manifestation for the fruits of mind and spirit"

The physical universe is a "body" principle. The arbitrary interpretation/definition of this body requires mind.
"Mind" is a principle that provides structure, organization, and growth.

At 1st density, "time" can be considered to be the "mind" of space (as an analog, of course). Alexander actually says something very similar.

[Confused]

Watched the Cygnus Mystery. I must say he makes a compelling case for the recognition of Cygnus as a source of some kind of transcendent energy, in the ancient cultures. Not sure it relates to the same energy that Ra spoke about, however.

What is interesting is that it is the Northern constellation, and you know the quote I referenced from Ra about North/North-East. And Collins makes a strong case that radiation from that constellation has been impacting DNA on earth for quite some time. And we have this from the LOO --

90.5 Questioner: You stated previously that fifth-density entities bear a resemblance to those of us in third density on planet Earth but fourth density does not. Could you describe the fourth-density entities and tell me why they do not resemble us?

Ra: I am Ra. The description must be bated under the Law of Confusion. The cause for a variety of so-called physical vehicles is the remaining variety of heritages from second-density physical vehicular forms. The process of what you call physical evolution continues to hold sway into fourth density. Only when the ways of wisdom have begun to refine the power of what you may loosely call thought is the form of the physical complex manifestation more nearly under the direction of the consciousness.

The LOO is a cipher in many ways, with clues strewn all around, in my opinion.

---

The problem with Larson's system....

Wow, zen, tell me - are you a scientist or a Phd in real life? Your analysis are brilliant from my perspective and they do justice to this section called 'Advanced Studies'.

I admit a lot of it went over my head. But I need to again read it to formulate good questions. I would however enjoy more expositions on Dewey's theories on t/s & s/t, starting from rudimentary levels, if you have something like that.

At 1st density, "time" can be considered to be the "mind" of space (as an analog, of course). Alexander actually says something very similar.

Ra said this about first density in 13.16 and in many places characterizes its formation as timeless --

This begins with first density which is the density of consciousness, the mineral and water life upon the planet learning from fire and wind the awareness of being. This is the first density.

[zenmaster]

90.5 Questioner: You stated previously that fifth-density entities bear a resemblance to those of us in third density on planet Earth but fourth density does not. Could you describe the fourth-density entities and tell me why they do not resemble us?

Ra: I am Ra. The description must be bated under the Law of Confusion. The cause for a variety of so-called physical vehicles is the remaining variety of heritages from second-density physical vehicular forms. The process of what you call physical evolution continues to hold sway into fourth density. Only when the ways of wisdom have begun to refine the power of what you may loosely call thought is the form of the physical complex manifestation more nearly under the direction of the consciousness.

I interpret that to simply mean that although thought influences genetics, evolution follows the path of the logos until that thought is able to become a significant influence.

Wow, zen, tell me - are you a scientist or a Phd in real life?

No, just a 'layman'.

I would however enjoy more expositions on Dewey's theories on t/s & s/t, starting from rudimentary levels, if you have something like that.

I will look through my notes, but you should read some of Larson's work, such as Nothing But Motion. They are available online or for purchase. Here's some background.

This begins with first density which is the density of consciousness, the mineral and water life upon the planet learning from fire and wind the awareness of being. This is the first density.

The four elements are metaphorical analogs of the psychological faculties that inform experience - also of the interplay between space and time or mind and body.

[Confused]

The four elements are metaphorical analogs of the psychological faculties that inform experience

What are those psychological faculties that you refer to, zenmaster? And how are they related to the processing of time in our experiential nexus? I would be grateful if you can answer.

[kycahi]

The LOO is a cipher in many ways, with clues strewn all around, in my opinion.

I quite agree, Confused. I guess that they knew what they were doing, in that regard, some or most of the time. Maybe, though, they stuck to answering Don's questions and just sprinkled in some hints for follow-up topics.

I recall having to search all around to come up with the the seven levels of consciousness. They would mention second density here and blue ray there so, once I realized that they were constantly referring to them I went back through all that I read for that list, thinking that I must have seen it but just spaced out at the time. Nope, so I got out my highlighter and lit up anything to do with those until I could fashion my own list.

I think they were doing the best they could for the LOO threesome while skirting the law of confusion. I am SO grateful for those teams--Ra and Don, Carla and Jim.

---

What are those psychological faculties that you refer to, zenmaster? And how are they related to the processing of time in our experiential nexus? I would be grateful if you can answer.

Good going, C! Force zenmaster to admit he's just throwing around big words

Kidding of course. I like this conversation.

[Confused]

I guess that they knew what they were doing, in that regard, some or most of the time. Maybe, though, they stuck to answering Don's questions and just sprinkled in some hints for follow-up topics.

Well observed, kycahi. Most mystical texts are like ciphers that contain clues, which inform one another and are strewn across the whole range of the work. The words of Ra in the LOO is no less.

---

I am SO grateful for those teams--Ra and Don, Carla and Jim.

Very true, kycahi. I often wonder how much spiritual knowledge was lost/missed due to Don's untimely death. If he had lived on, we sure would have had more than 106 sessions. A very sad development for humanity; but a significant coup for our brothers and sisters of darkness.

---

The four elements are metaphorical analogs of the psychological faculties that inform experience

zen, is this what you were referring to (shaded bold) --

91.34 Questioner: And finally, the Magician represents the conscious mind. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. We ask the student to consider the concept of the unfed conscious mind, the mind without any resource but consciousness. Do not confuse the unfed conscious mind with that mass of complexities which you as students experience, as you have so many, many times dipped already into the processes of potentiation, catalyst, experience, and transformation.

[zenmaster]

The four elements are metaphorical analogs of the psychological faculties that inform experience

What are those psychological faculties that you refer to, zenmaster? And how are they related to the processing of time in our experiential nexus? I would be grateful if you can answer.

thinking, feeling, sensation, and intuition.
Also cups, wands, pentacles/coins, and swords from the expanded tarot.

Intuition and feeling are time (yin) based, while thinking and sensation are space (yang) based. Intuition and sensation are irrational (no act of evaluation) and perception based. While thinking and feeling are rational (evaluational judgement performed) and participatory.

Thinking and feeling- based evaluations or acts of will are actually what we use to create experience which allows us to 'polarize' (we are finding a 'way' by accepting / owning something of the logos). The emporer tarot card is depicted as the 'authority' figure due to this role.

[Confused]

zenmaster, thank you for a nice detailed post on the mental faculties. Much appreciated. Taking up our discussion on Cygnus, the following is from a scientific source and it is very interesting, in my opinion --

New Evidence for a Black Hole in the Compact Binary Cygnus X-3
Shrader, Chris R.; Titarchuk, Lev; Shaposhnikov, Nikolai
The Astrophysical Journal, Volume 718, Issue 1, pp. 488-493 (2010).

The bright and highly variable X-ray and radio source known as Cygnus X-3 was among the first X-ray sources discovered, yet it remains in many ways an enigma. It is known to consist of a massive, Wolf-Rayet primary in an extremely tight orbit with a compact object. However, one of the most basic of parameters—the mass of the compact object—is not known, nor is it even clear whether it is a neutron star or a black hole (BH). In this paper, we present our analysis of the broadband high-energy continua covering a substantial range in luminosity and spectral morphology. We apply these results to a recently identified scaling relationship that has been demonstrated to provide reliable estimates of the compact object mass in a number of accretion powered binaries. This analysis leads us to conclude that the compact object in Cygnus X-3 has a mass greater than 4.2 M sun, thus clearly indicative of a BH and as such, resolves a long-standing issue. The full range of uncertainty in our analysis and from using a range of recently published distance estimates constrain the compact object mass to lie between 4.2 M sun and 14.4 M sun. Our favored estimate, based on a 9.0 kpc distance estimate, is ~10 M sun, with an error margin of 3.2 solar masses. This result may thus pose challenges to shared-envelope evolutionary models of compact binaries, as well as establishing Cygnus X-3 as the first confirmed accretion-powered galactic gamma-ray source.
source: http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2010ApJ...718..488S

Any thoughts?

[zenmaster]

It is quite interesting, but not going to pay $9 to read it. It seems they are trying to explain how it came to be within their knowledge framework.

Astronomy is a 'young' science with a lot of ad-hoc theories. Larson's system has it completely backwards from the conventional view (read Universe of Motion). That is, according to Larson, young stars are red giants and old stars are blue. Globular clusters are new and spirals are old. Larson even predicted Quasars before their discovery - but of course he was not credited with it. Larson claimed there are no 'black holes' (sacrilege), but possibly just very massive neutron stars, due to no viable mechanism of degeneracy - the Chandrasekhar limit is completely bogus.

---

The four elements are metaphorical analogs of the psychological faculties that inform experience

zen, is this what you were referring to (shaded bold) --

91.34 Questioner: And finally, the Magician represents the conscious mind. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. We ask the student to consider the concept of the unfed conscious mind, the mind without any resource but consciousness. Do not confuse the unfed conscious mind with that mass of complexities which you as students experience, as you have so many, many times dipped already into the processes of potentiation, catalyst, experience, and transformation.

I see it, 'experience' and 'transformation' create 'polarization' when something of the logos is realized. It's a cycle. "In order for the Transformation of Mind to occur, one principle governing the use of the deep mind must be abandoned." Apparently, living life more 'as it is' requires less governance or self-created bureaucracy.

[Confused]

I need to do some research on Larson's work, before I can dissect into his description of time and put it up here for discussion with fellow seekers such as you, zen. Apart from that, I would like to solicit some discussions on the following --

Once, in a past time, I spoke to the Dweller.
Asked of the mystery of time and space.
Asked him the question that surged in my being,
saying: O Master, what is time?

Then to me spoke HE, the Master:
Know ye, O Thoth, in the beginning
there was VOID and nothingness,
a timeless, spaceless, nothingness.
And into the nothingness came a thought,
purposeful, all-pervading,
and It filled the VOID.
There existed no matter, only force,
a movement, a vortex, or vibration
of the purposeful thought
that filled the VOID.

And I questioned the Master, saying:
Was this thought eternal?
And answered me the DWELLER, Saying:
In the beginning, there was eternal thought,
and for thought to be eternal, time must exist.
So into the all-pervading thought
grew the LAW of TIME.
Aye time which exists through all space,
floating in a smooth, rhythmic movement
that is eternally in a state of fixation.

Time changes not,
but all things change in time.
For time is the force
that holds events separate,
each in its own proper place.
Time is not in motion,
but ye move through time
as your consciousness
moves from one event to another.

Aye, by time yet exist, all in all,
an eternal ONE existence.
Know ye that even though in the time ye are separate,
yet still are ONE, in all times existent.

source: Excerpted from Tablet X: The Key of Time of the book -- The Emerald Tablets of Thoth (http://www.crystalinks.com/emerald10bw.html)

[zenmaster]

In the beginning, there was eternal thought,
and for thought to be eternal, time must exist.

Time, inherently, equals space. Just as yin = yang.

We do not tend to experience it as it is such, however, because that would be unity or non-duality.

So what we call 'time', what we refer to as 'time', are subjective psychological qualities that emerge to our mental perception.

In other words 'time' is a word used to describe a mental disposition which expresses itself in certain qualities as our thoughts flow from one idea to the next.

Our 'ground of being' is non-dual (time/space = space/time), however. This is why the zenmasters used koans to show how thought (or seeing thought as primary) can break our connection with this source of being.
You see there is a certain freedom attained when we can see the source of or dynamics of our own thoughts. When we recognize this, then we can recognize how patterns of thoughts may be created, and how they affect our attitudes and judgement. Only once patterns are recognized can change (for a more desirable condition) take place.

Time is not in motion,
but ye move through time
as your consciousness
moves from one event to another.

'Time' is not an object 'out there'. It's a consensus agreement of psychological characteristics, since we all tend to have the same brain biases which process thought in a certain (mechanical) manner.

Some people are born differently, like Jiddu Krishnamurti whose perception of 'time' was more of a 'non-dual' nature.

[Confused]

Some people are born differently, like Jiddu Krishnamurti whose perception of 'time' was more of a 'non-dual' nature.

I have seen this statement from you for a couple of times now, but did not think about it much. But now it intrigues me. What was Jiddu's personal conception or lived experience of time, as you say it was different with him from birth? I would appreciate your thoughts on that.

Are you a keen student of Jiddu's works?

[zenmaster]

Some people are born differently, like Jiddu Krishnamurti whose perception of 'time' was more of a 'non-dual' nature.

I have seen this statement from you for a couple of times now, but did not think about it much. But now it intrigues me. What was Jiddu's personal conception or lived experience of time, as you say it was different with him from birth? I would appreciate your thoughts on that.

Are you a keen student of Jiddu's works?

I've read some of his work and listened to his speeches and watched his PBS interview and a dialog with Bohm. I recognize something about where he is 'coming from'.

'Thinking' involves establishing a causal chain of concepts, since there is an ordering involved, this is necessarily dividing up 'time' by creating an artificial separation. This separating is symbolized by the sword of the tarot (sword cuts).

Krishnamurti was not born with the 'natural' instinct to separate in the commonly accepted manner, so people thought he was quite an idiot as a youngster. Presumably he had somewhat of a challenge early on trying to figure out how to 'think'. But, remarkably, he eventually did this, and by doing so he was able to bridge both worlds of perception, so to speak. Like a pioneer or hero coming back from a long journey of discovery. Basically, most of the ideas he expresses are of the problematic nature of thought. Here's a short essay.

[Confused]

essay.

zen, thank you very much for linking the essay. It had quite an abstruse feel to it for me, but I enjoyed many points. However, does not this essay on thought negate the following statement of Ra from the LOO (1.0)

The Confederation of Planets in the Service of the Infinite Creator has only one important statement. That statement, my friends, as you know, is “All things, all of life, all of the creation is part of one original thought.”

So how can one eradicate thought, if in fact all is one thought?

[zenmaster]

That's like where Ra says we need to understand, but we can't understand. The idea is to understand the nature of the circumstances and necessary limitations with which we're forced to operate, so that we can have some freedom. Before enlightenment chop wood, carry water, after enlightenment chop wood, carry water - but with some profound liberation. It's like allegory of the cave (the 'matrix'), or the fish realizing that it is swimming in an 'ocean' as if there was some other possible context of being. If you take 'thought' for granted, then you have not realized 'thought' as a principle of being.

[Confused]

That's like where Ra says we need to understand, but we can't understand. The idea is to understand the nature of the circumstances and necessary limitations with which we're forced to operate, so that we can have some freedom. Before enlightenment chop wood, carry water, after enlightenment chop wood, carry water - but with some profound liberation. It's like allegory of the cave (the 'matrix'), or the fish realizing that it is swimming in an 'ocean' as if there was some other possible context of being. If you take 'thought' for granted, then you have not realized 'thought' as a principle of being.

I think I understand where you are coming from, zen. And Jiddu's insistence on removing external teachers for the internal one resonates with the following from Ra, I think (from 17.2) --

We cannot offer shortcuts to enlightenment. Enlightenment is, of the moment, an opening to intelligent infinity. It can only be accomplished by the self, for the self. Another self cannot teach/learn enlightenment, but only teach/learn information, inspiration, or a sharing of love, of mystery, of the unknown that makes the other-self reach out and begin the seeking process that ends in a moment, but who can know when an entity will open the gate to the present?

I find the phrase 'gate to the present' very queer. In many instances, Ra highlights the importance of the present moment, or in other words, the present time (there it comes again). I wonder what it is to live in the present. May be living in the present is to act without taking thought, on the lines of what Jiddu suggests. What do you think about the potentials of the present moment for enlightenment, zen? I like your very grounded answers