Semantics

[turtledude23]

There are private schools called Waldorf schools, they're like Montessori. In the public school board in Toronto there are alternative schools anyone can go to, some of them are for people who need credit recovery, but some are alot like Waldorf - If I knew about them when I was in high school I would've switched in a second. Sadly I went to the catholic school board, which is also publicly funded and an enormous waste of tax payer money. I think the school system is slowly liberalizing here and there's more media pressure now the get rid of catholic school boards, I don't know what it's like in the U.S. though, I couldn't imagine living in the U.S. in the first place.

[3DMonkey]

Hehehe. I didn't go to class too often. I would walk in the front door, and walk straight out the back door, go to the state park, and smoke. Standardized tests were easy enough for me, it was discipline I lacked good times. ? I still graduated on time. None of my friends did though :0

[Bring4th_Austin]

I couldn't imagine living in the U.S. in the first place.

It's a great place for catalyst.

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Hehehe. I didn't go to class too often. I would walk in the front door, and walk straight out the back door, go to the state park, and smoke. Standardized tests we easy enough for me, it was discipline I lacked good times. ?

Standardized tests were easy for me as well. Tests in general were the only reason I made it through school...10 minutes before class, absorb the material...10 minutes after class, it's all gone. It's a dumb system. I hardly learned anything in school. Never did homework, never paid attention in class.

I didn't smoke or drink in school

[3DMonkey]

There are private schools called Waldorf schools, they're like Montessori. In the public school board in Toronto there are alternative schools anyone can go to, some of them are for people who need credit recovery, but some are alot like Waldorf - If I knew about them when I was in high school I would've switched in a second. Sadly I went to the catholic school board, which is also publicly funded and an enormous waste of tax payer money. I think the school system is slowly liberalizing here and there's more media pressure now the get rid of catholic school boards, I don't know what it's like in the U.S. though, I couldn't imagine living in the U.S. in the first place.

I can't imagine living so far north! Noway. ... Don't be hatin'

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We have the same setup with alternative high schools. A nephew went that route.

And I still think it's the parenting that is forcing schools to be like they are. 1) they expect too much from school 2) they don't give as much effort in teaching as they expect from the school.
The school is forced to parent and teach, thus the need for added strictness.
Abridgetoofar, I will make the assumption that the militarized class was more free because it had discipline in place.

On your dumb system thought- I won't disagree, because whatever the system is, is. I'm not going political.
What I notice is that you praised Montessori for it's open learning and then condemn public schools for not teaching you anything. All the while, learning interests were at your free will all along. You could've delved into learning all you wanted.

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The Negative part, I believe, comes in when we are judged by our scores. Life isn't that black and white. I don't intend to hold my children to a piece of paper. I intend to help them blossom into this world they will grow into.

[Bring4th_Austin]

Abridgetoofar, I will make the assumption that the militarized class was more free because it had discipline in place.

I think that I enjoyed ROTC so much because it was intended to be an outlet to explore these restrictions. It's sort of like a healthy marriage...you're not free to participate in relations with other people, but it is a happy situation because it's what you expected from the agreement to begin with. It was also a unique view of a group of people functioning as one. With the restrictions so well defined, we were able to explore within those restrictions with complete freedom. Along the lines of what you mention here...

On your dumb system thought- I won't disagree, because whatever the system is, is. I'm not going political.
What I notice is that you praised Montessori for it's open learning and then condemn public schools for not teaching you anything. All the while, learning interests were at your free will all along. You could've delved into learning all you wanted.

I acted upon my learning interests during that time-period, just outside of the confines of school. In fact, I delved very deep into learning. I learned much during those years, but on my own accord, after school hours on my own as well as through interaction with my friends (which, it should be noted, that this interaction with friends is becoming less and less during school hours for our children).

It's not that public schools didn't try to teach me anything, it's that I had absolutely no say in what I wanted to learn. In classes I wanted to learn, I did, but then I was still stuck in the confines of the class. I couldn't move ahead if I grasped a concept quicker than other children (resulting in boredom), and I couldn't spend more time on a particular subject I was interested in or struggled with (resulting in me falling behind, and eventually being so lost I stopped caring).

Likewise, I was forced to learn information I felt I had (and still have) no use for. So much time wasted on such useless information being literally forced down my throat. It bugs me even more in hindsight, thinking about how I'd stare out the window at a tree. If I had known then that I could have learned so much more by meditating under that tree rather than sitting in class, I probably couldn't have handled it. I would have shut down completely.

The Negative part, I believe, comes in when we are judged by our scores. Life isn't that black and white. I don't intend to hold my children to a piece of paper. I intend to help them blossom into this world they will grow into.

Indeed, it is a small part of the negativity. But I don't think it's such a bad idea to gauge how well a concept is grasped, but to be so harshly judged by the gauging is what is negative. Like I said, I never had a problem with any tests. I am bugged by the testing system, but it was not the source of my intense discomfort going through public school.

[Ocean]

high school was a huge waste of time for me, i was at a point where i couldn't focus on their bogus teachings. so i just went there, sat and doodled, feeling oppressed. kids shouldn't be forced to go to school if they get no joy or education out of it

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i did get self esteem problems from failing in school, i still have those problems even though i grasp that the problem was the school.

[3DMonkey]

catch 22

gotta force kids to do something

[Bring4th_Austin]

Do we? As I pointed out, most of my learning initiative was on my own accord, outside of "being forced to do something" (that something being school). I loved learning. My mom often had to "force" me to STOP learning outside of school.

We must protect our kids, and this includes protecting their free will. Forcing them to do anything is infringing upon their free will. The entire public school system is built around infringing upon our kids' free will.

This, of course, is a huge topic of discussion even outside of discussing schooling. Children need our help growing up, but forcing them to do so is infringement of free will.

[Ocean]

take it to the school thread.

[3DMonkey]

i infringe their free will of hygiene and cleanliness. We are born dirty and evil

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i'd be nowhere if people didnt care enough to force me to do

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AGAINST free will is a different matter.

[Ocean]

noone's saying you force them, Monkey. something outside the home is different.

[turtledude23]

catch 22

gotta force kids to do something

What? You said you skipped school and did fine on standardized tests, this is something most wanderers or children of wanderers probably could do.

i infringe their free will of hygiene and cleanliness. We are born dirty and evil
i'd be nowhere if people didnt care enough to force me to do
AGAINST free will is a different matter.

What does hygeine have to do with free will?

What's the difference between forcing someone and infringing their free will? My dad forced me to play sports even though I didn't like them. He didn't hold a gun to my head but I protested many times and he brushed it off. Did the sports help me? I don't think they did, but he was convinced I should do them. Ra said something along the lines of: don't infringe your children's free will in any way other than teaching them how you pray.

[3DMonkey]

What does hygeine have to do with free will?

I don't know.


Stop lecturing me

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What's the difference between forcing someone and infringing their free will? My dad forced me to play sports even though I didn't like them. He didn't hold a gun to my head but I protested many times and he brushed it off. Did the sports help me? I don't think they did, but he was convinced I should do them. Ra said something along the lines of: don't infringe your children's free will in any way other than teaching them how you pray.

I don't know what the difference is, but I feel like there is one. My kids wouldn't ever clean themselves if I didn't make them. They'd get disease and probably die from disease. I suppose I could let this happen. In fact, I could let this happen, but I don't think they would appreciate that. In fact, I could just walk out and let them fend for themselves, free will and all.

I know a mother who uses this tactic. She gives her children choices and explains what could be possible consequences. Either the consequences are their own physical dangers or they are affecting others' emotions. Kids do what they want with no care. What she doesn't realize is that she is teaching passive aggressiveness, because disappointing Mommy has its own set of invisible consequences. She turns a blind eye to this part of her teaching, not realizing that her children are adopting her behavior.

So we lead by example. That's what children truly learn by. Example. We follow the status quo as we see it from our perspective. IMO, this is the only real learning. What did we really learn at school? Systems suck, because the teachers hate the system too. Oppression is rampant, because teachers are oppressed too. We learn what we see, and what we see the most of impresses us the most.

I'll stop.

Love you. Rant thread.

[3DMonkey]

Thanks to Tenet Nosce's current activity, I have found something new to my self.

I have struggled with learn/teach before http://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthrea...1#pid37821

Something new has dawned on me about the following quote. Rather than try to explain my understanding in detail, I ask you do read the following with something in you mind- that the other/them/they that Ra speaks of is not outside self. Specifically, read it as though Ra is speaking of the other as they exist in your mind. For example, there is a 3DMonkey that you have given life to and exists in your mind much like when reading a novel, the characters become others in your mind. Read the following as though these creations of the mind are the ones Ra refers to and why Ra cannot "separate the two". Ra then describes their own self being the other in the mind for teaching purposes. Hopefully you can kind of see what I see and we can discuss it further.

1.9 Questioner: If an individual makes efforts to act as a catalyst in general to increase the awareness of planetary consciousness, is he of any aid in that direction, or is he doing nothing but acting upon himself?
Ra: I am Ra. We shall answer your question in two parts, both of which are important equally.

Firstly, you must understand that the distinction between yourself and others is not visible to us. We do not consider that a separation exists between the consciousness-raising efforts of the distortion which you project as a personality and the distortion which you project as an other personality. Thus, to learn is the same as to teach unless you are not teaching what you are learning; in which case you have done you/they little or no good. This understanding should be pondered by your mind/body/spirit complex as it is a distortion which plays a part in your experiences at this nexus.

To turn to the second part of our response may we state our understanding, limited though it is.

Group-individuated consciousness is that state of sharing understanding with the other distortions of mind/body/spirit complexes, which are within the evident reach of the mind/body/spirit complex individual or group. Thus, we are speaking to you and accepting both our distortions and your own in order to enunciate the laws of creation, more especially the Law of One. We are not available to many of your peoples, for this is not an easily understood way of communication or type of philosophy. However, our very being is hopefully a poignant example of both the necessity and the near-hopelessness of attempting to teach.

Each of those in this group is striving to use, digest, and diversify the information which we are sending this instrument into the channels of the mind/body/spirit complex without distortion. The few whom you will illuminate by sharing your light are far more than enough reason for the greatest possible effort. To serve one is to serve all. Therefore, we offer the question back to you to state that indeed it is the only activity worth doing: to learn/teach or teach/learn. There is nothing else which is of aid in demonstrating the original thought except your very being, and the distortions that come from the unexplained, inarticulate, or mystery-clad being are many. Thus, to attempt to discern and weave your way through as many group mind/body/spirit distortions as possible among your peoples in the course of your teaching is a very good effort to make. We can speak no more valiantly of your desire to serve.

May we speak in any other capacity upon this subject?

[3DMonkey]

http://www.lawofone.info/results.php?cat...&sc=1&ss=1

What I am learning here, Ra being the teacher, is that the concept of learn/teach and teach/learn is within the constructs of a mind. Even the interplay between parent and child is described in such a way as to apply the teacher (parent) and learner (child) as two personalities that exist in one mind.

Make note of some word choice by Ra.

"radiation of realization of oneness with the Creator from the self"

"open-hearted being-ness of the parent and the total acceptance of the beingness of the child"

"the nature of teach/learning to avoid trespass into the realms of learn/teaching for the student"

"We do not consider that a separation exists between the consciousness-raising efforts of the distortion which you project as a personality and the distortion which you project as an other personality"

"nothing else which is of aid in demonstrating the original thought except your very being"

[zenmaster]

What I am learning here, Ra being the teacher, is that the concept of learn/teach and teach/learn is within the constructs of a mind.

Where else would it be?

[3DMonkey]

What I am learning here, Ra being the teacher, is that the concept of learn/teach and teach/learn is within the constructs of a mind.

Where else would it be?

Well, I don't think I'm alone here, I previously took the view of the you that is you as the teacher and I that is I as the 'learner'.

I am just now coming to the realization that the 'you' as my teacher is not the separate body of Zenmaster, but the you as my teacher is the existence of you within my mind. In other words, the you I have personally created.

(If I am alone, I am surprised)

[zenmaster]

What I am learning here, Ra being the teacher, is that the concept of learn/teach and teach/learn is within the constructs of a mind.

Where else would it be?

Well, I don't think I'm alone here, I previously took the view of the you that is you as the teacher and I that is I as the 'learner'.

I am just now coming to the realization that the 'you' as my teacher is not the separate body of Zenmaster, but the you as my teacher is the existence of you within my mind. In other words, the you I have personally created.

(If I am alone, I am surprised)

I'm glad you figured that one out. Projection is primarily how we learn here. Most people here haven't actually met each other yet.

[3DMonkey]

What I am learning here, Ra being the teacher, is that the concept of learn/teach and teach/learn is within the constructs of a mind.

Where else would it be?

Well, I don't think I'm alone here, I previously took the view of the you that is you as the teacher and I that is I as the 'learner'.

I am just now coming to the realization that the 'you' as my teacher is not the separate body of Zenmaster, but the you as my teacher is the existence of you within my mind. In other words, the you I have personally created.

(If I am alone, I am surprised)

I'm glad you figured that one out. Projection is primarily how we learn here. Most people here haven't actually met each other yet.

I'm taking the meaning a bit further to encompass my actual relationship with my child, and how Ra explains it.

[zenmaster]

I'm glad you figured that one out. Projection is primarily how we learn here. Most people here haven't actually met each other yet.

I'm taking the meaning a bit further to encompass my actual relationship with my child, and how Ra explains it.

All relationships must come from the same understanding.

[3DMonkey]

I'm glad you figured that one out. Projection is primarily how we learn here. Most people here haven't actually met each other yet.

I'm taking the meaning a bit further to encompass my actual relationship with my child, and how Ra explains it.

All relationships must come from the same understanding.

Even though I have kinda figured it, this is a big AHA moment for me.

The dynamics on this very forum are all quite more interesting...

[zenmaster]

I'm glad you figured that one out. Projection is primarily how we learn here. Most people here haven't actually met each other yet.

I'm taking the meaning a bit further to encompass my actual relationship with my child, and how Ra explains it.

All relationships must come from the same understanding.

Even though I have kinda figured it, this is a big AHA moment for me.

The dynamics on this very forum are all quite more interesting...

The first thing the realization does is provide an opportunity to process emotional catalyst before posting. This does two things: it allows you to get more out of it, and what you then post does not carry the charge (even though it may seem to from another's projections). But at least you are offering something more ' in service' in the sense of a more 'teaching what you are learning', as Ra says. To the extent that you get wrapped up in your own unprocessed catalyst, then you necessarily force or subject others to your 'issues'. This is a disservice to the extent that you could have re-distilled the thought-content based on consideration of its own 'charge' before submitting the post.

I would not get carried away with 'calling people out', directly, however. This is because that is also necessarily subject to modeling or projection, which is another, higher catalyst (above personal-emotion).

[3DMonkey]

True. True.

I have always encouraged the "disservice" you speak of because I look toward the conclusion and the catalyst offered.

I wouldn't want to discourage it, per se, but I am in greater understanding than before. Maybe I'll be of more service because of the AHA. It's hard to tell though. Perhaps it will result in me receiving more service. That's all up to me though, isn't it?

[zenmaster]

True. True.

I have always encouraged the "disservice" you speak of because I look toward the conclusion and the catalyst offered.

I wouldn't want to discourage it, per se, but I am in greater understanding than before. Maybe I'll be of more service because of the AHA. It's hard to tell though. Perhaps it will result in me receiving more service. That's all up to me though, isn't it?

I'm not talking about discouraging it. It is really one of the main ways 'anyone gets anything out of the participation'. Just that that also, bares some reflection before posting. The idea is that by distilling the thought, you have a 'more pure' offering. Curiously, the considered thought is necessarily more of what you meant in the first place. All new thoughts start as apprehensions or vague notions. What we can honestly say about it, transforming it from a mere apprehension or vague notion to something carrying more learning potential, is the service.

[3DMonkey]

Which brings me to a struggle point of my own.

"the nature of teach/learning to avoid trespass into the realms of learn/teaching for the student"



I am a good student when I allow an other to be a teacher. Too often, when I am in a teach position, I try to make this "trespass into the realms of learn/teaching".

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I feel that my being a teacher infringes another's will.

[βαθμιαίος]

Too often, when I am in a teach position, I try to make this "trespass into the realms of learn/teaching".

How do you do this?

[native]

It seems in that response Ra is referring to making observations of that which the student does not see. So it devalues the experience and polarization of the learner coming to conclusions for themselves. "We are quite agreed to comment upon all observations that the student may make. We cannot speak further than this for any student."

I imagine that holds more sway in communication across densities, where significant concepts are being taught and the likelihood of a teacher influencing a student. Here in 3D though, in our interactions it is said we are to teach what we know which involves challenging other people's viewpoints. In a spiritual forum like this, I find it to be more acceptable since we are here to pursue truths. There seems to be an overbearing quality which approaches the trespassing concept, which usually involves getting caught up in the details of how someone explains their thoughts. We all think differently, and as long as the fundamental concepts are clear it's helpful to allow a persons opinion on the details to be acceptable (unless of course the details are fundamental). You have to let someone work through their own thoughts and disagreements, otherwise the learning/polarization isn't as great. Out in the real-world though, I've learned that if you find yourself trying to convince someone of your perspective it's better to just let it be. So if you offer what you know, and there is disagreement, then that is an indication of learning not desired at that moment.

[3DMonkey]

Too often, when I am in a teach position, I try to make this "trespass into the realms of learn/teaching".

How do you do this?

Uncomfortable with the role of teacher, I revert the relationship to be of shared learning. In other words, I excuse my opportunity to teach by 'jumping off sides' (trespass into the realms) and place myself on the learner's 'bench.'

Did I make any sense?

[BrownEye]

Teach/Learn is a bit like one person teaching another how to build a car, the learner then teaching the teacher how to drive that car.

I can teach a person how to create the pieces for a tattoo gun, while that same person then ends up teaching me how to use that same tattoo gun.

This applies to anything where there is collaboration.

Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.—

[zenmaster]

Too often, when I am in a teach position, I try to make this "trespass into the realms of learn/teaching".

How do you do this?

Uncomfortable with the role of teacher, I revert the relationship to be of shared learning. In other words, I excuse my opportunity to teach by 'jumping off sides' (trespass into the realms) and place myself on the learner's 'bench.'

Did I make any sense?

One of the more powerful 'STS' acts is a form of conscious manipulation. That's where you can treat others as an extension of yourself. It's a form of using others as learning 'tools' without regard to where they're 'at'. What the manipulator gets out of it is a form of dominance from humiliation of trespass and an understanding of how to improve the effectiveness of that role.