Suicide and other self-annihilating concepts.

[ayadew]

Hello, friends. Thank you for coming to my thread. I wish to discuss suicide and other self-annihilating concepts.

It began early today, when I read the words of our friend Ali Quadir in some thread here. He posed the question: Why would anyone consciously bring destructive elements into one's life?
This question was quite central in my trains of thought today, and I saw and pondered about some things.

Suicide. We have all had thoughts around this. Seldom, if ever, have I met a person which have not played with the thought of jumping from a high place - often when they stand at such a place. A potentially new existence, so easy! Just jump.
The thought is equally thrilling and horrible, created by the catalyst of uncertainty.
It's very interesting to see what happends when you die, the question we've all had and which we often think about. A very defining thing of being human indeed.
We seemingly came from oblivion with no immediate memories of past existence. Some does remember faint things though, of past/future lifes.

Today I had a vision/insight of sorts, stimulated by deep contemplation. Piercing the veil is very rare for me, so it was very special.
I saw myself in a past life, committing suicide, simply because I wanted to see what happened. I saw/felt nothing that indicated misery, simply the overpowering desire of curiosity.

Obviously this was not destructive for me, in that life. I must have felt it to be quite constructive and meaningful, for me to do such. Yet I cannot think of anything more destructive than taking a life, especially my own, per general definition.

So I thought, I had committed suicide once. But here I am again. Obviously this was a wasted effort. I must thank my higher self for bringing me these images, for they solidified for me the certainty that I would never commit suicide in this existence. One thing less to worry about.

[Monica]

Wow, deep thoughts!

I've never heard of anyone committing suicide out of curiosity. Whenever I've heard people mention it, it was always in the context of desperation and hopelessness. So that's an interesting experience you had!

I'm having trouble understanding self-sabotage. There is someone in my life who's had so many opportunities, yet continues to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. I am bewildered. I just don't understand the psychology of it.

[Lavazza]

I think there is a general feeling of negativity towards this act from society as a whole... although I think that's been changing slowly over time. Certainly the issue of assisted suicide has been hotly debated with Dr. Kevorkian and also the Terry Shivo case. The debates themselves maybe do not yield so much progress as the act of simply raising the possibility of it being a neutral act to the public. When this happens the debates follow, but that it's being debated at all is a sign that people are open to it more so then before.

For myself personally, I view suicide as a back door out of incarnation that may be opened if needed. It's a door I hope to never have to travel through, but the fact that it exists is a reassurance. I would much rather use the door then remain in a coma for 20 years until death, as a good example. I'm sure there are many other good examples also. It's obviously a major decision that impacts not just yourself but those around you- so I would never endorse light-hearted suicide contemplation.

Overall I feel it important to stress that I think it should be a last resort. Incarnation is a precious thing, in my humble opinion. Yet I also see clearly the folly of trying to use the words "should be" to anyone else but myself.

[3D Sunset]

Excellent topic ayadew,

I'd like to look at from a few different perspectives. Let's start with a somewhat "clinical" LoO perspective:

Questioner: Do I understand, then, that death, whether it is by natural means or accidental means or suicide, that all deaths of this type would create the same after-death condition which would avail the entity to its protection from friends? Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. We presume you mean to inquire whether in the death experience, no matter what the cause, the negative friends are not able to remove an entity. This is correct largely because the entity without the attachment to the space/time physical complex is far more aware and without the gullibility which is somewhat the hallmark of those who love wholeheartedly.

However, the death, if natural, would undoubtedly be the more harmonious; the death by murder being confused and the entity needing some time/space in which to get its bearings, so to speak; the death by suicide causing the necessity for much healing work and, shall we say, the making of a dedication to the third-density for the renewed opportunity of learning the lessons set by the higher self.

So from here we see that suicide is a significant issue with respect to the Law of One. It's interesting to note that this is the only passage in which the word suicide appears in the first four books of the Law of One. In Book V it appears twice more, both written by Carla in reference to Don's suicide. So we have an interesting juxtaposition of references to suicide in our source material. On the one hand, Ra says that suicide essentially necessitates another 3D incarnation to learn the lessons that were missed. On the other hand, I feel confident that Don Elkin's suicide did not involve this karmic requirement.

Although I think the primary reference is applicable to the vast majority of suicides, I do think that there are situations in which suicide does not necessitate another 3D incarnation. Again, this is just my supposition, but it seems to me that if suicide is done with the (broad) intent of service to others and forgiveness of self, then it can avoid the karmic bonds. This could include the follow reasons:

1. Life's purpose is complete (One aspect, I think, of Don's departure).
2. To aid in the life lesson of another self (I think this was a major part of Don's suicide, in that it created a massive catalyst for Carla that was a life lesson in self forgiveness for her).
3. Martyrdom

Clearly suicide involves some issue with red ray, but it can also have associated orange, yellow, or green ray aspects. When dealing with our own flirtations with self destructive behavior, I would suggest focusing on the the red ray. I think that some assisted suicides do involve karmic bonds for reincarnation because they involve avoiding an aspect of a life lesson that they were placed here to embrace. It also seems likely that some assisted suicides fit in one of the categories above, and avoid karmic implications.

I feel that your recollection of suicide for curiosity's sake, ayadew, is an example of one that did involve the karmic bond, primarily because you came away from the recollection with a strong internal commitment not to do so in this incarnation.

It should also be noted that a person can quite literally and consciously choose to die. Metaphysically, this amounts to essentially pinching off the red ray over a fairly short period of time. We've all seen people that lose the will to live, and having done so, simply die in short order either of sudden on set diseases (cancers, pneumonia, etc.) , systemic failures (heart attack, stroke, aneurysms, etc.), or conscious choices to not eat or drink. I think that all of these also play by the same metaphysical rules as suicide, even though they may not be viewed as suicide by our societies.

In summary, it seems to me that self-annihilating behavior is almost always contrary to our purposes, but may on rare occasions be supportive. Ultimately though, like most everything else in life, the karmic price we pay for these actions is more a function of our underlying motivations and intent than the act itself.

Just my thoughts on an interesting topic. Thanks for bringing it up.

Love and Light,

3D Sunset

[Lavazza]

I am not sure if it is public knowledge, well known, or if I would be invading the privacy of Carla and other L/L friends by asking, but why exactly did Don commit suicide? If the later please disregard the question.

[3D Sunset]

I am not sure if it is public knowledge, well known, or if I would be invading the privacy of Carla and other L/L friends by asking, but why exactly did Don commit suicide? If the later please disregard the question.

All I know is what I have read. Probably the most detailed account is that of Carla sprinkled throughout Book V, but especially her discussion before Fragment 56. It is also interesting to follow along between the sessions in Book IV and the Fragments in Book V to get a better picture of Don's psychological unraveling at the time.

If you don't have a copy, all the books can be downloaded for free from L/L Research's website. Below is the link to Book V. Change the 5 to another number to download the other books.

http://www.llresearch.org/library/the_la...book_5.pdf

Love and Light,

3D Sunset

[Solo Maters]

I am not sure if it is public knowledge, well known, or if I would be invading the privacy of Carla and other L/L friends by asking, but why exactly did Don commit suicide? If the later please disregard the question.

All I know is what I have read. Probably the most detailed account is that of Carla sprinkled throughout Book V, but especially her discussion before Fragment 56. It is also interesting to follow along between the sessions in Book IV and the Fragments in Book V to get a better picture of Don's psychological unraveling at the time.

It does seem private, but it has been very openly addressed by Carla. It may also indirectly relate to the Law of One itself in a sense. For example, I've wondered more than a few times if Don's death might not be directly related to the entire purpose of the Law of One information? More specifically, might it be that the negative greetings from their 5th density friend might have been at the root cause? Remember from the readings that the 5th density negative greeting was to completely prevent the Ra communication, even to the point of Carla's death. Although it was primarily directed at Carla, it was unsuccessful due the continued dedication of the group. Could it be that the focus changed to Don instead? Don, having a predisposition towards psychological anomalies, might have been the weakest link to prevent these communications rather than Carla's predisposition to physical anomalies? Another obvious question to ask is if it serves as a caution or warning to open up these channels? From the readings alone the answer seems clear. Is it possible Don might have paid for this information with his life? If the answer is yes, it sure seems to add an entirely different dimension to the weight of the information, as much as to the danger.

[ayadew]

Hello, my friends. Thank you for your answers and thoughts.

It's my belief that the channeling of the Ra information has been a combined effort of many entities, and many many years of planning.
We read in book 5 for example, that according to Carla she died early in a previous life to prepare for this one.
There has likely been other entities protecting Ra from disruptions while the channeling took place, for to my knowledge this is the first direct contact from a 6th density entity on this planet (excluding Ra's visit to egypt).

One could classify the whole ordeal as "epic", as much as you wish in your mind. Ra has little reason to transmit the happenings around this though, for it is simply not relevant and can be classified as dogma.

About Don's death, Carla words it as "Don's final illness" in an article somewhere.

To continue on topic
--
Bring4th_Monica: Yes, it was interesting to say the least. When I mentioned this to some of my friends, they simply could not relate to it, and I couldn't get any meaningful answer as to why. I felt in them a deep reluctance to speak of death. I have decided to not speak more with them about it for now, since it seems to hurt them.

Which brings us to what Lavazza mentioned. The general feeling of negativity towards this act from society as a whole. Based on my friend's reaction, this is indeed true.
And I think of it as a backdoor too. There's always the possibility of leaving, if it becomes unbearable. I think it's good that this possibility exists, wouldn't be much 'free will' otherwise.

3D Sunset: I will comment on your words soon. Currently I must think of them further before doing such

[Phoenix]

Hello, my friends. Thank you for your answers and thoughts.

It's my belief that the channeling of the Ra information has been a combined effort of many entities, and many many years of planning.
We read in book 5 for example, that according to Carla she died early in a previous life to prepare for this one.
There has likely been other entities protecting Ra from disruptions while the channeling took place, for to my knowledge this is the first direct contact from a 6th density entity on this planet (excluding Ra's visit to egypt).

My emphasis.

Could you tell me where in book 5 this was. I've read most of the books a couple of times and I cannot recall this.

[βαθμιαίος]

according to Carla she died early in a previous life to prepare for this one.

Carla actually died in this life when she was thirteen and then chose to return and live out the incarnation. Perhaps that's what ayadew is thinking of.

I feel confident that Don Elkin's suicide did not involve this karmic requirement.

As someone who has benefitted immeasurably from Don Elkins' work, I certainly share this hope, even if I don't entirely share your confidence. (I believe Carla does, though.) To have someone lay down their life for you is weighty enough; to have them create the necessity for further third density incarnation just seems beyond the pale.

I'm having trouble understanding self-sabotage. There is someone in my life who's had so many opportunities, yet continues to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. I am bewildered. I just don't understand the psychology of it.

Ra sometimes used understanding as a synonym for love -- ie, fourth density is the density of understanding. So when I'm having a hard time understanding someone or some situation, I try to remember to open my heart to them or it.

[3D Sunset]

Hello, my friends. Thank you for your answers and thoughts.

It's my belief that the channeling of the Ra information has been a combined effort of many entities, and many many years of planning.
We read in book 5 for example, that according to Carla she died early in a previous life to prepare for this one.
There has likely been other entities protecting Ra from disruptions while the channeling took place, for to my knowledge this is the first direct contact from a 6th density entity on this planet (excluding Ra's visit to egypt).

Could you tell me where in book 5 this was. I've read most of the books a couple of times and I cannot recall this.

I believe this is what ayadew is referring to:

I do personally believe that we incarnate many times, and that we fashion, through these cycles of manifestation, complex and meaningful relationships that root deeply within our beings. When Don and I met, he has said he knew for certain that we would be together. Since what immediately thereafter ensued for me was a four-year marriage to a fellow who wished not to be married, I once braced him for not having told me this home truth right then in 1962, and saved me that difficult four years. “What? And have you miss all that good catalyst?” he said.

Both Donald and Jim had a loving and generous regard of me that is amazing unless one introduces the concept of previous connections. I have no doubt that we have served together before, in other lives and other times. An interesting bit of possible past history was expressed years ago to Jim in a psychic reading: it was suggested that in the American great plains frontier of the nineteenth century, Don and Jim were brothers living together as farmers. I was Jim’s child, Don’s nephew, and I lived only to the age of five, being sickly from birth. This was suggested as being preparation for their taking care of me in this life, as I dealt with disability, limitation and especially psychic greeting during the time of the Ra contact. It rings true at some level with me. However, I also feel that we do not need to know anything of our past associations in order to learn and serve together at this present moment. We have all we need to meet the present moment. The rest is just details.

Hope that helps,

3D Sunset

[ayadew]

Yes, thank you 3D sunset

[Phoenix]

Thanks also. For that understanding.

[AppleSeed]

So I thought, I had committed suicide once. But here I am again. Obviously this was a wasted effort. I must thank my higher self for bringing me these images, for they solidified for me the certainty that I would never commit suicide in this existence. One thing less to worry about.

Was it really a wasted effort? Now you have the experience, and won't feel the need to try it again.

Re: suicide as a back door when life feels unbearable: bear in mind that what counts as unbearable can vary a lot, also for one person. "I" committed suicide once, a long time ago, because I felt that life here was unbearable. Turns out there was another part of me which thought I should have been able to handle it. Took quite a few return trips to deal with this little disagreement between me and myself, and also with the regret of lost opportunity. Much later "I" went through an experience which can be called unbearable by much stricter standards. I lost my will to live, but didn't die. I lived on for maybe as long as two years in a kind of zombie-like state. There was a strong connection between the two memories, and the second one felt like failing and passing a test at the same time. Failing because I lost my will to live, even though I felt strongly that it was wrong to do so; passing because I didn't in the end allow myself to die there. Then of course I've had to forgive myself for having been so unforgiving of self...

In the end it's all experience, one as good as the other, but I do think suicide is rarely the quick way out. That said, once a life span is over, what's wrong with picking the time and means of departure? I just read about a yogi who threw a party on his last day, held a speech, and then simply took off. Even "normal" people can have this knowing that it is time - I think this is often the case with (usually elderly) people who stop eating.

[Vince]

Obviously this was not destructive for me, in that life.

how do you know that it wasn't destructive?

[ayadew]

I think I used the wrong word. If you wish to discuss destruction, I don't think there is any destructive elements actually. That we see as destructive, is highly creative - changing, reforming, creative. Conscioussness is never destroyed, so nothing is ever lost

[ayadew]

3D Sunset:
You present an excellent answer in return
I have only read book 1 of LOO, so thank you for presenting this part. Perhaps I should read more, but I feel Ra presented their main points in the first book, and that has been enough so far to keep my mind busy!

You present interesting ideas, and I can agree with them. Please note however, that when you placed limitations on yourself for the optimal learning/teaching and servitude in this life, it's possible that one can place an inclination/tendency of suicidal behaviour to explore this concept further. Although we all experience death, and 'live to die' and have suicidal thoughts, there is always the possibility of having this more than the 'average' person.
Also, having a fully negative experience (for example ending in suicide, and utter despair) in this place, could be a massive catalyst for gratitude. We often remember our appreciation of things more when they've been removed from us.
Imagine the feeling of returning to a place of love, after you've had a lifetime of pure negativity. And the memory such a return would imprint! Not easily forgotten!

As for my own suicide, it does seem like it achieved nothing really. The idea of karma does not resonate with me, however. Also that which I outlined above may contradict the matter of that you recieve a karmic bond on 'meaningless' suicides, ie not doing

1. Life's purpose is complete (One aspect, I think, of Don's departure).
2. To aid in the life lesson of another self (I think this was a major part of Don's suicide, in that it created a massive catalyst for Carla that was a life lesson in self forgiveness for her).
3. Martyrdom

Thus suicide might be in interest of our 'purpose' here, although quite a selfish interest. But then one is all... and such an experience might be in turn a martyrdom to remind friends higher up of how things can be. Etc... can bend your head around this matter forever

[3D Sunset]

I have only read book 1 of LOO, so thank you for presenting this part. Perhaps I should read more, but I feel Ra presented their main points in the first book, and that has been enough so far to keep my mind busy!

It is a pleasure to be of service. I highly recommend the other four books. To me, Book I was more an introduction that was laden with a lot of transitory material which Don felt was needed to attract an audience. IMHO, the later Books delve into the real substance of the LOO. Additionally, I could only begin to comprehend some of the layers of wisdom contained in the books after multiple readings of all. It's interesting that throughout my life, I've enjoyed many books, but never read the same book twice until I found the LOO. To date, I've probably read each book at least a dozen times, with some (books two and four in particular) over twenty I'm sure.

Please note however, that when you placed limitations on yourself for the optimal learning/teaching and servitude in this life, it's possible that one can place an inclination/tendency of suicidal behaviour to explore this concept further. Although we all experience death, and 'live to die' and have suicidal thoughts, there is always the possibility of having this more than the 'average' person.

I agree completely. As a matter of fact, I would expect (inference on my part) that having committed suicide, then this inclination is a necessary part of the lessons that one brings into the next incarnation.

I did not intend to imply that I see any inherent issue with entertaining suicidal thoughts. I see them as powerful catalysts, and ones that can be exceedingly seductive at times. I think that to appropriately consider, embrace and process these catalysts can provide some of the most powerful possible increases in polarization. For to choose to remain and embrace (or alternatively, to control) life's issues can be an amazing commitment to service to others (or alternatively, to self).

Also, having a fully negative experience (for example ending in suicide, and utter despair) in this place, could be a massive catalyst for gratitude. We often remember our appreciation of things more when they've been removed from us.
Imagine the feeling of returning to a place of love, after you've had a lifetime of pure negativity. And the memory such a return would imprint! Not easily forgotten!

To address this point, the discussion could easily become a little esoteric in the minutiae of the LOO, which I'm glad to do if you'd like to hear my rationale for this position, but otherwise suffice it say that my understanding of the LOO is that catalyst can only be experienced and processed by an entity during incarnation (or in space/time), not after death (or in time/space). As such, the catalyst is only usable during your life, not after it (whether it ended by suicide or any other means). So no, my understanding is that the opportunity to process such a catalyst after death does not exist, and any potential catalyst of gratitude would be wasted.

As for my own suicide, it does seem like it achieved nothing really. The idea of karma does not resonate with me, however. Also that which I outlined above may contradict the matter of that you receive a karmic bond on 'meaningless' suicides

I wasn't crazy about using the term "karmic bond" because it is easily misunderstood and doesn't exactly capture what I intended, but it was convenient and came close to expressing the concept I wanted. Please read that term as the same as Ra's words "the making of a dedication to the third-density for the renewed opportunity of learning the lessons set by the higher self."

[Side note. My list of reasons for suicide that may not have associated "karmic bonds" was not intended to be exhaustive. I am certain that there are an infinite number of such reasons in this vast and intricate universe. I am, but a humble student of the Law of One. I do not claim to be thorough or even remotely accurate in my grasp of some of these concepts. What I share are my perspectives and opinions, they hold absolutely no value beyond that.]

As I stated earlier, I do not believe that suicide can serve a purpose that aids in the soul's evolution outside of incarnation, because as I understand it, the soul only evolves as part of a space/time incarnated mind/body/spirit. Again, this is based upon my study of the Law of One, and some number of conclusions I've drawn after considering the meaning and significance of several passages.

Regardless, I stand behind my assertion that whether or not a suicide necessitates another 3D incarnation, is more a function of the intent behind the action, than the act itself. If the intention is avoidance, then I'm confident that another incarnation will be required. If the intention is service, then it probably will not. To your remembered prior suicide, it appears that, although the intent may not have been avoidance, it does seem to have been the result. Thus, you probably remembered that experience in order to keep it from recurring, and thus avoiding your intended lessons yet again. Am I incorrect in guessing that this prior life vision occurred in conjunction with a more than fleeting consideration of the topic of this thread?

... and such an experience might be in turn a martyrdom to remind friends higher up of how things can be.

I'm not sure what you mean by this... please elaborate.

Etc... can bend your head around this matter forever

Quite true my friend, quite true. All is well though, nevertheless.

Love and Light,

3D Sunset

[Vince]

That we see as destructive, is highly creative - changing, reforming, creative. Conscioussness is never destroyed, so nothing is ever lost

i suggest that some actions (such as suicide) can place extreme obstacles to our evolutionary development in the afterlife.

for example, if a person shoots themself in the head with a gun based upon the fantasy that their pain will be over when they die, they may only end up re-experiencing that trauma a hundred times over again while in the afterlife in a tormenting context, until they actually work through it again. the agony of physical death may often last long into the afterlife if a person has not become psychologically detached from the cares of the material world. suicide may be a physical detachment from material cares, but it's not necessarily a psychological detachment from material cares.

likewise, people who have been murdered by others often carry the trauma of that murder with them long into the afterlife in a tormenting context, until they might strive to purge themselves of the negative energy of that trauma. the afterlife is not necessarily all bliss and roses, even as our material realm is not all bliss and roses.

[3D Sunset]

I feel confident that Don Elkin's suicide did not involve this karmic requirement.

As someone who has benefitted immeasurably from Don Elkins' work, I certainly share this hope, even if I don't entirely share your confidence. (I believe Carla does, though.) To have someone lay down their life for you is weighty enough; to have them create the necessity for further third density incarnation just seems beyond the pale.

Hello again, my good friend, βαθμιαίος! I too owe a great debt of gratitude for Don, Carla, and Jim for the many sacrifices they made in bringing this work forward. I have pondered the circumstances, action, and repercussions of Don's death at some depth, and I understand your reluctance to see it as a karmicly benign act.

Far be it from me to feign any real understanding of the physical motivations for, mental configuration of, or metaphysical influences on Don as he took his life. Suffice it to say that when I look into myself and see that part of Don Elkins that is part of me, I see only warmth, love and peace. It is upon this admittedly subjective reading that I drew my conclusion and expressed my assertion.

3D Sunset

[ayadew]

Hello again 3D Sunset and others. May you all find harmony on your chosen path

It is a pleasure to be of service. I highly recommend the other four books. To me, Book I was more an introduction that was laden with a lot of transitory material which Don felt was needed to attract an audience. IMHO, the later Books delve into the real substance of the LOO. Additionally, I could only begin to comprehend some of the layers of wisdom contained in the books after multiple readings of all. It's interesting that throughout my life, I've enjoyed many books, but never read the same book twice until I found the LOO. To date, I've probably read each book at least a dozen times, with some (books two and four in particular) over twenty I'm sure.

Thank you for these opinions. I imagine I'll soon read the other books, then, as you liked them so much. I agree with that Book 1 contains much transitory material, but they also contain the essence of Ra's message.

”To address this point, the discussion could easily become a little esoteric in the minutiae of the LOO, which I'm glad to do if you'd like to hear my rationale for this position, but otherwise suffice it say that my understanding of the LOO is that catalyst can only be experienced and processed by an entity during incarnation (or in space/time), not after death (or in time/space). As such, the catalyst is only usable during your life, not after it (whether it ended by suicide or any other means). So no, my understanding is that the opportunity to process such a catalyst after death does not exist, and any potential catalyst of gratitude would be wasted. ”

I see. This is an interesting viewpoint, although my intepretation and thought of things differ. I cannot understand your reasoning here, so allow me to elucidate by argumenting for my viewpoint which will also indirectly be an answer to these statements of yours. If you have read much of the entity 'Seth' you will find congruency.
Upon death, I believe we both agree on that a highly possible concept is that Wanderers go back to their initial vibratory state / density and reunite with the parts of themselves they left behind. (To partially quote Hidden_Hand, it would be like playing the game(life) with cheats on if one would incarnate here with all knowledge, rending it quite wasted in a learning perspective)

So, the real question is: what good is this learning experience. For what other reason do we chose to have parts remaining of ourselves, if not for individual learning? It would be quite easy to be of optimal service to others if one would take all accumulated knowledge down here, but obviously we do not...

In my viewpoint, we, upon death, look over all parts of our life again and see what we could do better. We create for ourselves different outcomes of situations that was heavy with catalyst and of high importance to our life. We may see things in a different view, for example that some people that we decided to be our enemy could have been our treasured friends should things have gone a bit different. And that some we called trusted and giving friends were only using us.
We then incorporate this knowledge / learning into our Full self in the higher vibration.
We also meet the higher vibratory parts of the people we met, and if they are not Wanderers then their higher self, and discuss the finished lifetime with them and their viewpoint of things.
You also share your experience with friends / social memory complex.

This path is to truly learn from the experience we had here. What other / better way is there?

ayadew Wrote:... and such an experience might be in turn a martyrdom to remind friends higher up of how things can be.

Thus I have hopefully explained this statement.

Regardless, I stand behind my assertion that whether or not a suicide necessitates another 3D incarnation, is more a function of the intent behind the action, than the act itself. If the intention is avoidance, then I'm confident that another incarnation will be required. If the intention is service, then it probably will not. To your remembered prior suicide, it appears that, although the intent may not have been avoidance, it does seem to have been the result. Thus, you probably remembered that experience in order to keep it from recurring, and thus avoiding your intended lessons yet again. Am I incorrect in guessing that this prior life vision occurred in conjunction with a more than fleeting consideration of the topic of this thread?

You make a solid point in that the death in another life may have prevented a similar in this. I am thankful to myself for this. If avoidance was the intention, then indeed the entity would likely repeat the experience – but out of choice, nothing else. I still do not see how any 'laws' could keep a higher vibratory entity bound in this place, such as the 'karmic laws'. It simply does not make sense to me, if this is what you mean by ”will be required”.
Indeed, it did appear in conjunction, with the contemplation of LOO and suicide and the creaton of this thread to discuss such.


Love and light

[3D Sunset]

Hello as well, my good friend ayadew. Let me apologize in advance for the length of this post, I may have gone a little overboard with my quotes. I am of the opinion, however, that Ra's words carry more weight than my summary thereof.

I cannot understand your reasoning here

I'm not surprised, as what I presented was an assimilation of many statements or Ra, and their logical conclusions when considered together. If you are interested in it, I would be happy to discuss it in another post. But an analogy may do well here:

I see the differences between s/t and t/s are like the difference between being filmed and later editing and reviewing the film. Only while one is being filmed (in s/t), do they have the ability to experience what is happening around them. This experience is later distilled in t/s (like the editing process of a movie) and brought back to the Higher Self, Social Memory Complex, and ultimately the One Creator for review (also in t/s). Simply put, when you're in the studio editing, or the theater watching you're not in the right environment to make the movie.

Upon death, I believe we both agree on that a highly possible concept is that Wanderers go back to their initial vibratory state / density and reunite with the parts of themselves they left behind.

In general, this is true, but here's the rub. By taking 3D form, a wanderer agrees to abide by all the rules of 3D. This means living behind the veil, living by the free will of the self while incarnate and taking full responsibility for those free will decisions that are made. This responsibility is what may be called "karma" (or, to me, attachment). Thus a wanderer may well find him/herself caught in several cycles of 3D existence in order to resolve their "attachments". I see this as what would likely happen if a wanderer committed suicide with the wrong intent. Consider:

Questioner: Are most of these (Wanderers) from the fourth density? Or what density do they come from?

Ra: I am Ra. Few there are of fourth density. The largest number of Wanderers, as you call them, are of the sixth density. The desire to serve must be distorted towards a great deal of purity of mind and what you may call foolhardiness or bravery, depending upon your distortion complex judgment. The challenge/danger of the Wanderer is that it will forget its mission, become karmically involved, and thus be swept into the maelstrom of which it had incarnated to avert the destruction.

It is also important to remember that the actions we take while living behind the veil in 3D can have significant impact on our true selves. Consider this worst case scenario for some positive 5D Wanderers that came to Venus while those of Ra were in 3D:

Questioner: Were some of Ra’s population negatively harvested at the end of Ra’ s third density?

Ra: I am Ra. We had no negative harvest as such although there had been two entities which had harvested themselves during the third density in the negative or service-to-self path. There were, however, those upon the planetary surface during third density whose vibratory patterns were in the negative range but were not harvestable.
...
Questioner: What techniques did the two negatively harvested entities use for negative polarization upon such a positively polarized planet?

Ra: I am Ra. The technique of control over others and domination unto the physical death was used in both cases. Upon a planetary influence much unused to slaughter these entities were able to polarize by this means. Upon your third-density environment at the time of your experiencing such entities would merely be considered, shall we say, ruthless despots which waged the holy war.

Questioner: Did these two entities evolve from the second density of the planet Venus along with the rest of the population of Venus that became Ra from second density to third?

Ra: I am Ra. No.

Questioner: What was the origin of the two entities of which you speak?

Ra: I am Ra. These entities were Wanderers from early positive fifth density.

Questioner: And though they had already evolved through a positive fourth density they, shall we say, switched polarity in the reincarnating in third density. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is correct.

So, the real question is: what good is this learning experience. For what other reason do we chose to have parts remaining of ourselves, if not for individual learning?

Although wanderers come with the primary motivation of lessening the planetary load and increasing the bounty of the harvest, I agree that they also come with many of the same agendas as native 3D entities. One primary reason for 3D incarnation, though is to benefit from the strength of catalyst in 3D and the associated strength of polarity that can be gained through efficient processing of the catalysts. Consider the following few quotes:

Questioner: I would just include the question as to why the time of harvest is selected by so many Wanderers as time for incarnation?

Ra: I am Ra. There are several reasons for incarnation during harvest. They may be divided by the terms self and other-self.

The overriding reason for the offering of these Brothers and Sisters of Sorrow in incarnative states is the possibility of aiding other-selves by the lightening of the planetary consciousness distortions and the probability of offering catalyst to other-selves which will increase the harvest.

There are two other reasons for choosing this service which have to do with the self.

The Wanderer, if it remembers and dedicates itself to service, will polarize much more rapidly than is possible in the far more etiolated realms of higher density catalyst.

The final reason is within the mind/body/spirit totality or the social memory complex totality which may judge that an entity or members of a societal entity can make use of third-density catalyst to recapitulate a learning/teaching which is adjudged to be less than perfect. This especially applies to those entering into and proceeding through sixth-density wherein the balance between compassion and wisdom is perfected.

Questioner: Then each of the Wanderers here acts as a function of the biases he has developed in any way he sees fit to communicate or simply be in his polarity to aid the total consciousness of the planet. Is there any physical way in which he aids, perhaps by his vibrations somehow just adding to the planet just as electrical polarity or charging a battery? Does that also aid the planet, just the physical presence of the Wanderers?

Ra: I am Ra. This is correct and the mechanism is precisely as you state. We intended this meaning in the second portion of our previous answer. You may, at this time, note that as with any entities, each Wanderer has its unique abilities, biases, and specialities so that from each portion of each density represented among the Wanderers come an array of preincarnative talents which then may be expressed upon this plane which you now experience so that each Wanderer, in offering itself before incarnation, has some special service to offer in addition to the doubling effect of planetary love and light and the basic function of serving as beacon or shepherd.

Thus there are those of fifth-density whose abilities to express wisdom are great. There are fourth and sixth-density Wanderers whose ability to serve as, shall we say, passive radiators or broadcasters of love and love/light are immense. There are many others whose talents brought into this density are quite varied.

Thus Wanderers have three basic functions once the forgetting is penetrated, the first two being basic, the tertiary one being unique to that particular mind/body/spirit complex.

In my viewpoint, we, upon death, look over all parts of our life again and see what we could do better. We create for ourselves different outcomes of situations that was heavy with catalyst and of high importance to our life. We may see things in a different view, for example that some people that we decided to be our enemy could have been our treasured friends should things have gone a bit different. And that some we called trusted and giving friends were only using us.

We then incorporate this knowledge / learning into our Full self in the higher vibration.

This path is to truly learn from the experience we had here. What other / better way is there?

I quite agree with these statements, although I see some aspects of your description more appropriate to a 3D entity's post life review and planning than that of a Wanderer. Per the statements above, it seems to me that Wanderers bring a specific agenda of catalysts desired to fill in specific areas of experience, once obtained and after their 3D service is done (and the associated karma resolved), then they return to their native form and planet. 3D entities, on the other hand, would review the entire life and create a wider agenda of catalysts for the next incarnation aiming at the goal of achieving harvestable polarity.

A subtle, but I think important distinction.

Love and Light,

3D Sunset

[MisterRabbit]

3D, I always especially enjoy your input. You know your stuff.

From a somewhat more earth-bound, or 3D-bound perspective, my best bet is that suicide is a natural mechanism, in most cases. Of course there is a great variety of reasons that people might do this, many of which may well be an exception to this rule. But it seems to me that our state of affairs is that we think we are separate when we are not. That is, we think we are an isolated self when we are not. Now, when we are at ease or life is going fairly well or whatever, we are relatively okay and maybe not quite so isolated and walled into our limited self. However, with the advent of certain situations, the limited aspect of our being can become quite stark. Add to that all the human gobbledygook having to do with death (which itself is basically because of the whole separate entity thing, too), then there is a point at which a person becomes very isolated and fearful, which is darkness. One could say that, in a sense, they are malfunctioning. Now of course you and I know that there is more to it than that, but in a sense. And so, this malfunctioning existence seeks to end itself. It's almost like a mechanism installed by nature or something. However I don't think this always applies, and certainly I don't think it would in Don's case, since he was actually so involved with the Law of One stuff. Doesn't seem to me like he would have had the same reasons. Anyway, in a way it makes perfect sense. It's like a person becomes much too much a limited self, and so they very naturally begin to long for the ultimate plunge into non-separateness, or non-being, even if they think that it is literally non-being in the sense of the end of their consciousness. It seems for the most part to be natural psychological processes, to me.

As I say, the actuality of it is much more complex and vast than what the point I'm making here, but I do think that this is one way to look at it.

[ayadew]

I had another flash of some memory of death today. (What's up with that anyway!)

My body simply gave out, it was gone. It felt like nothing. Yet my consciousness was there, only pure consciousness, unrestricted by the brain's logical structure. And then I floated away I guess, across the veil. No memory after that.

They say that life is transitory and death is permanent. I'd wager it's the other way around!

[Joseph326]

Well, it looks like I'm adding to this discussion a bit late! I would like to share two thoughts.

The 3 non-Karmic reasons that 3D Sunset introduced make a great deal of sense. I think it is possible there is a fourth reason to list. Could one have a need to move on to a different vehicle in order to accomplish something new that has been planned by the higher self? Perhaps on rare occasions it is necessary to leave the current vessel at a particular time to ensure that one is "on time" for the next incarnation, if they are planned that close together.

The second thought I wanted to share has to do with the concept of Karma. Could it be possible that there is no need to 'pay for' actions and choices made while incarnated? What if choosing a certain action simply opened up the need to learn its opposite at some point in the future, in order to balance the self? In this way, it would not be necessary to have 'bad' or 'good' Karma but just open up a future opportunity to complete oneself further. Someone who responds to a catalyst with anger or hate might need to experience compassion in the future, for example. Every single choice ever is made by the Creator, so how could anything ever be wrong? Some things just neccesitate further learning and balancing.

I apologize for moving slightly off-topic with the last idea. Just a few things I thought to be worth considering. Feedback is most certainly welcome.

[unity100]

that is a delicate topic.

forbidding against suicide is also a method of negative societal patterns and hierarchies to prevent slaves from ending their lives, and therefore damaging their interests.

[3D Sunset]

Well, it looks like I'm adding to this discussion a bit late! I would like to share two thoughts.

Hi Joseph,

It is never too late to participate. Thank you for digging up the old thread.

The 3 non-Karmic reasons that 3D Sunset introduced make a great deal of sense. I think it is possible there is a fourth reason to list. Could one have a need to move on to a different vehicle in order to accomplish something new that has been planned by the higher self? Perhaps on rare occasions it is necessary to leave the current vessel at a particular time to ensure that one is "on time" for the next incarnation, if they are planned that close together.

You may be right here. As I said in a later post, I expect that there are a number of other situations in which an entity might commit suicide without karmic repercussions.

Still, it seems to me that the situation you describe would more often manifest as the sudden onset of a disease, a systemic failure, or an accidental death. Recall, that in order for an entity to consciously recognize his/her higher purpose (especially a purpose greater than his/her 3D existence, as would be the case in your example) and thus decide that suicide is "necessary in order to move on", would require an entity that is profoundly in touch with his/her higher self and higher calling (indeed, even beyond that of his/her Earthbound purpose). It would seem to me that such individuals are exceedingly rare.

As a matter of fact, if I met someone that claimed such knowledge (and I am not implying that you do, although I suspect there are some on this forum that might), I would hasten to counsel them to take a deep breath and repeat the mantra "Owah-Tagu-Siam" until the feeling passed. Such humility benefits Saints as well as mere 3D mortals such as you and I. I for one, do engage in this or a related practice daily .

The second thought I wanted to share has to do with the concept of Karma. Could it be possible that there is no need to 'pay for' actions and choices made while incarnated? What if choosing a certain action simply opened up the need to learn its opposite at some point in the future, in order to balance the self? In this way, it would not be necessary to have 'bad' or 'good' Karma but just open up a future opportunity to complete oneself further. Someone who responds to a catalyst with anger or hate might need to experience compassion in the future, for example. Every single choice ever is made by the Creator, so how could anything ever be wrong? Some things just necessitate further learning and balancing.

Here again, in a later post, I mentioned my dissatisfaction with the term "karmic", because as you also indicate, the term brings with it a lot of distortion and misunderstanding laid down over thousands upon thousands of years. Still, I use it because it is as Ra might say "a sound vibrational complex that closely approximates the concept I intend to convey".

That said, I think your thoughts are worth more discussion. I have observed a few other threads that delve into Karma, my favorite being Karma of File Sharing. Still, it may be worthwhile starting a new thread that has this topic as its centerpiece.

Thank you again for stirring this old thread.

Love and Light,

3D Sunset

[Namaste]

Very glad this thread was resurrected. An excellent read indeed.

Still, it seems to me that the situation you describe would more often manifest as the sudden onset of a disease, a systemic failure, or an accidental death. Recall, that in order for an entity to consciously recognize his/her higher purpose (especially a purpose greater than his/her 3D existence, as would be the case in your example) and thus decide that suicide is "necessary in order to move on", would require an entity that is profoundly in touch with his/her higher self and higher calling (indeed, even beyond that of his/her Earthbound purpose). It would seem to me that such individuals are exceedingly rare.

Agreed. Ra states in Book I how only a few managed to choose the time of harvest through contact with intelligent infinity...

Ra: I am Ra. The number of entities thus harvested is small. However, a few have penetrated the eighth level which is only available from the opening up of the seventh through the sixth. Penetration into the eighth or intelligent infinity level allows a mind/body/spirit complex to be harvested if it wishes at any time/space during the cycle.

Questioner: Are any of these people known in the history of our planet by name?

Ra: I am Ra. We will mention a few. The one known as Taras Bulba, the one known as Genghis Khan, the one known as Rasputin.

Questioner: How did they accomplish this? What was necessary for them to accomplish this?

Ra: I am Ra. All of the aforementioned entities were aware, through memory, of Atlantean understandings having to do with the use of the various centers of mind/body/spirit complex energy influx in attaining the gateway to intelligent infinity.

When one has accomplished the goals of the incarnation, a natural death or accident is a far more likely means of passing over. There is a saying which is relevant here; if you're still here, you still have work to do :¬)

It's also worth mentioning that Dolores Cannon, in this interview, talks indirectly about wanderers and the STO/STS path, along with many other Law of One aspects. Her knowledge is from thousands of past life regressions spanning decades of work. Well worth a watch.

She mentions that people incarnated here to help (wanderers), and came in three waves. The first wave found it very difficult, living in such a negative, dense world, and many committed suicide. The second wave of wanderers came more prepared, as did the third.

[fairyfarmgirl]

Thank you.

[AnthroHeart]

Thank you so much for this link. Hadn't heard about her before. When she mentions about ET souls, I had to smile and feel all warm.

About 1/2 way through it now. Quite fascinating.

It's also worth mentioning that Dolores Cannon, in this interview, talks indirectly about wanderers and the STO/STS path, along with many other Law of One aspects. Her knowledge is from thousands of past life regressions spanning decades of work. Well worth a watch.

She mentions that people incarnated here to help (wanderers), and came in three waves. The first wave found it very difficult, living in such a negative, dense world, and many committed suicide. The second wave of wanderers came more prepared, as did the third.