Meat Eating v Plant-Based (video, balanced spiritual take in my opinion)

[schubert]

she starts talking about the diet topic at about 13:20

one of the main points is that there's a big difference between eating factory farmed meat where the animal had a hellish experience vs eating meat that's sourced from animal that lived a quality life and that you bless. she says factory farmed meat passes the suffering energy to you and keeps you in the 3rd dimension and prevents ascension, while eating meat sourced from an animal that lived a humane/natural life doesn't prevent ascension, though it does prevent accelerated stargate ascension (i personally don't know what that means). (note this is my quick interpretation, please watch the video for further details and the specific wording.)

how do you all feel about this info?

it resonates with me a lot. i no longer eat animal products myself but i have respect for people who are mindful around this topic and put in the effort to source meat/animal products from humanely treated animals. i must add that i don't think there's ever a humane way to kill an animal, killing is killing. but if the animal genuinely had a humane life or lived in the wild up to that point then that's 100x better than the dark ritual of factory farming. i'm trying to think about how i feel about people who eat factory farmed meat and realized that i can hold non-judgement and still not support it, so that's how i feel. i used to do the same thing so that humbles me, but eventually i put my foot down and aligned my actions with my values.

when we purchase something, we directly sponsor and support the actions involved in producing that product. we tug a string that tugs the producer to make those actions, because they would do it less if there was less demand (supply and demand). same goes for plant-based and supporting local farmers and sustainable farming (something i would like to do more of).

[confusedseeker]

Conclusions I've reached through my own research:  eating locally farmed or pasture raised/grass fed meat/dairy is about the best thing you can do for your health and for the environment.  Raw milk kefir is like liquid gold if you can find it.  

Also, veggies and carbs should be organic, you don't want to be taking in any of those pesticides (lowers testosterone and sperm count in men).  Carbs are good for energy, but don't have very many micronutrients.  Eating like our ancestors is the way to go, nothing like micronutrients and protein from quality, ethically raised animals.  Animals are a true gift to humanity.  Plant-based on a large scale kills a TON of animals too (arguably more than meat-based), so that's something else to consider....with large scale plant-based, you need a lot more land and you could easily see a shift forcing production from huge, massive, factory sized farms.  

We really need to go back to local, sustainable farming, and production of quality meat/dairy/fish; it's the best thing for our health and the health of our land.


There is also a fairly sinister agenda attached to the plant-based modes of eating that I'd rather not get into.

[BrotherInWaiting]

I had a dream of a Chinese dumpling factory harvesting up vast quantities of small, friendly lizards and turning them into meat paste for sale as pork or beef or what have you. I was horrified for these poor little creatures and the greed and lies involved. Nonetheless -- the dream ended by showing me that careful preparation by you, the end user, can still result in it being an almost neutral meal. The preparation and handling transformed the product even that late in the process... so I would assume ethically raised and slaughtered animals, cooked with care and attention, would be karmically neutral... I guess... ?

I eat mostly vegetarian, sometimes the body wants nutrients from meat for me. The longer I've eaten primarily vegetarian, the fewer times a week I need meat to feel 'satisfied'. Just listening to my body.

I've had strong encouragement from 'up above' to eat mostly vegetarian... 90%... that's for me whatever's the case for you I dunno.

Ciao

[pat19989]

Conclusions I've reached through my own research:  eating locally farmed or pasture raised/grass fed meat/dairy is about the best thing you can do for your health and for the environment.  Raw milk kefir is like liquid gold if you can find it.  

Also, veggies and carbs should be organic, you don't want to be taking in any of those pesticides (lowers testosterone and sperm count in men).  Carbs are good for energy, but don't have very many micronutrients.  Eating like our ancestors is the way to go, nothing like micronutrients and protein from quality, ethically raised animals.  Animals are a true gift to humanity.  Plant-based on a large scale kills a TON of animals too (arguably more than meat-based), so that's something else to consider....with large scale plant-based, you need a lot more land and you could easily see a shift forcing production from huge, massive, factory sized farms.  

We really need to go back to local, sustainable farming, and production of quality meat/dairy/fish; it's the best thing for our health and the health of our land.


There is also a fairly sinister agenda attached to the plant-based modes of eating that I'd rather not get into.

I am curious to hear the sinister agenda behind plant-based eating. I know grandmaster bill gates is big in to the impossible foods brand, which I avoid.

I have been largely plant based for the past couple years. I must say that the grand majority of land used for farming in the Americas is soybeans and corn to be used for animal feed. So this notion that a plant-based diet requires a lot more land than a traditional diet is simply not true. Also, I'm not sure if you are referring to field mice and other animals that get trapped in industrial plows when you say that plant-based diets kill a ton of animals. If that is what you are referring to, I will say that once again the grand majority of industrial plowed crops are used to feed cows and pigs to kill. Also, mice are very sensitive creatures that rely on vibrations of the earth to survive. I do not believe they will sit idly by as a 3000 pound plow shakes the earth around them.

[Diana]

one of the main points is that there's a big difference between eating factory farmed meat where the animal had a hellish experience vs eating meat that's sourced from animal that lived a quality life and that you bless. she says factory farmed meat passes the suffering energy to you and keeps you in the 3rd dimension and prevents ascension, while eating meat sourced from an animal that lived a humane/natural life doesn't prevent ascension, though it does prevent accelerated stargate ascension (i personally don't know what that means). (note this is my quick interpretation, please watch the video for further details and the specific wording.)

how do you all feel about this info?

it resonates with me a lot. i no longer eat animal products myself but i have respect for people who are mindful around this topic and put in the effort to source meat/animal products from humanely treated animals. i must add that i don't think there's ever a humane way to kill an animal, killing is killing. but if the animal genuinely had a humane life or lived in the wild up to that point then that's 100x better than the dark ritual of factory farming. i'm trying to think about how i feel about people who eat factory farmed meat and realized that i can hold non-judgement and still not support it, so that's how i feel. i used to do the same thing so that humbles me, but eventually i put my foot down and aligned my actions with my values.

when we purchase something, we directly sponsor and support the actions involved in producing that product. it's as if we tug a string that tugs the producer to make those actions, because they would do it less if there was less demand (supply and demand). same goes for plant-based and supporting local farmers and sustainable farming (something i would like to do more of).

Thank you schubert. I thought the video was very good. There are other aspects of this idea, such as the fact that animals have a central nervous system and plants do not, which underscores the pain and suffering. But I liked her overview and the points she made.

I agree with everything you said above. I don't know what the YouTuber meant exactly by stargate ascension either. But if there really is something such as karma (which, does seem like a pretty basic concept), then it follows that one would need to balance the results of factory-farmed meat consumption, and beyond that, balance the results of eating any life forms that resist being killed. The one thing I think she didn't get exactly right is she said plants don't want to be eaten. That isn't true for all plants. Plants do want to be eaten in the case of any fruiting plants at least. They require being eaten by animals in order to propagate. And, you can trim a plant and it will still thrive; you can't trim an animal (cut off a leg) and have it thrive.

-----------------------------

In response to the idea that growing plants for food kills more animals than animal factory farms (and this doesn't include the over-fishing of ocean animals):

Animal slaughter is the killing of animals, usually referring to killing domestic livestock. It is estimated that each year 77 billion land animals are slaughtered for food.

Regarding land use for growing plant crops:

Livestock is the world's largest user of land resources, with pasture and arable land dedicated to the production of feed representing almost 80% of the total agricultural land. One-third of global arable land is used to grow feed, while 26% of the Earth's ice-free terrestrial surface is used for grazing.

[schubert]

Nonetheless -- the dream ended by showing me that careful preparation by you, the end user, can still result in it being an almost neutral meal. The preparation and handling transformed the product even that late in the process... so I would assume ethically raised and slaughtered animals, cooked with care and attention, would be karmically neutral... I guess... ?

i think there's truth to your dream in that with meat from ethically raised animals, you can neutralize the energy and keep your frequency high, but i believe not the karma. she talks about this at the 16:45 mark, and at 24:45 says that with people who hunt for their food, there's a contract on a higher level but they still receive karma because on the physical level the animal still has its will to live (leads me to conclude that you can't get around the karma aspect). she talks about how karma is directly related to the animal's will to live, which makes perfect sense to me considering the law of free will talked about in the Law of One, as you're going against their free will desire to live and hence receive karma.

The one thing I think she didn't get exactly right is she said plants don't want to be eaten. That isn't true for all plants. Plants do want to be eaten in the case of any fruiting plants at least. They require being eaten by animals in order to propagate.

this is a really interesting point! makes sense to me, especially when you put it how they need it to propagate, and also it doesn't harm the overall plant to pick the fruit. i've heard other people say that fruit is the highest vibe food because it's being offered to us by the plant. i wonder if she addresses this in the book that goes into more detail.

[flofrog]

Thank you schubert for this lovely thread... and for your music too !!

[schubert]

Thank you schubert for this lovely thread...  and for your music too !!

[Dtris]

In response to the idea that growing plants for food kills more animals than animal factory farms (and this doesn't include the over-fishing of ocean animals):

Animal slaughter is the killing of animals, usually referring to killing domestic livestock. It is estimated that each year 77 billion land animals are slaughtered for food.

Regarding land use for growing plant crops:

Livestock is the world's largest user of land resources, with pasture and arable land dedicated to the production of feed representing almost 80% of the total agricultural land. One-third of global arable land is used to grow feed, while 26% of the Earth's ice-free terrestrial surface is used for grazing.

The situation is a bit more complicated than statistics alone can show. You certainly can not ethically and sustainably raise as many animals or plants as you can when you use factory methods. Also animals can often be grazed on land that is unsuitable for plant farming. The US would be fine using organic/non-factory methods and be able to produce enough food, but some countries rely on factory methods to feed everyone.

77 Billion land animals is only 11 animals per person on the planet, that is pretty low really.

[schubert]

The situation is a bit more complicated than statistics alone can show. You certainly can not ethically and sustainably raise as many animals or plants as you can when you use factory methods. Also animals can often be grazed on land that is unsuitable for plant farming. The US would be fine using organic/non-factory methods and be able to produce enough food, but some countries rely on factory methods to feed everyone.

77 Billion land animals is only 11 animals per person on the planet, that is pretty low really.

there is 0 requirement for factory farming animals. animals were never and are never meant to be treated like objects in a factory. that is so disgusting and anti-life. you can not just treat autonomous life as objects to be manufactured. never an excuse. it's an unnatural, detestably evil practice designed to produce terror and suffering. it's a dark ritual on par with adrenochrome harvesting. yes literally a mass dark ritual, i'm not just throwing that term out there.

77 billion is not low, it's an abomination and this is a scar in human history that people will look back at the way we look back at things like the holocaust.

as if humans aren't smart enough to develop ways feed ourselves without factory farming animals. developing countries had an abundance of food before the industrial revolution and colonization screwed them over. - https://www.worldanimalfoundation.com/ad...use-hunger

i don't have time to do a bunch of research but a quick search says the opposite of what you claim. "This increase in factory farming is creating huge problems. In Bangladesh, for example, which is one of the world's poorest countries, battery hen systems have become widespread. The country has massive shortages of food, many unemployed people and very little money to spare. Factory farming needs money for equipment, creates hardly any jobs and uses up much valuable plant food that could be fed to people." - https://www.worldanimalfoundation.com/ad...use-hunger

this article is also very informative with lots of sources: https://www.ciwf.org.uk/factory-farming/...d-poverty/

[Margan]

Yes I also ponderd about this idea, and I sometimes watch documentaries where they feature organic farms who raise animals and treat them humanely, as you say, and one of the farmers also touched upon this and said "is it ok to still eat meat" and his answer was "yes as long as the animal had a good life".
And just imagine, when I saw him petting his little pigs in the wooden shed and how they were running around outside in the mud and enjoying it so much, like little children, it got me thinking how these animals actually have a quite good life. And before they get old and "rheumatic" and get their old age illnesses etc, they are killed and don't have to go thru this.....
infact I was thinking about this when my mum was suffering so much at the end of her life, so much pain and the painkillers sometimes even made it worse so that she was barely conscious.... I remember talking about it to my friend and saying "we would never let our pets be in so much pain, the vet would give them an deadly injection if the case was hopeless, but for humans there is no other alternative"
And then I saw a documentary about a small buddhist community here in Germany, where the monks are mostly begging for their life sustenance and I was actually surprised to see they were eating meat also and his explanation was quite interesting to me - he said, "everything we are given is a gift. Whatever people people offer us (in terms of food), we see it as a gift and we give thanks and blessings"
So that is also another approach to the "meat vs veggie" issue- you bless it and give thanks and in such a way, you automatically "rise the vibrations" so to speak

[Dtris]

The situation is a bit more complicated than statistics alone can show. You certainly can not ethically and sustainably raise as many animals or plants as you can when you use factory methods. Also animals can often be grazed on land that is unsuitable for plant farming. The US would be fine using organic/non-factory methods and be able to produce enough food, but some countries rely on factory methods to feed everyone.

77 Billion land animals is only 11 animals per person on the planet, that is pretty low really.

there is 0 requirement for factory farming animals. animals were never and are never meant to be treated like objects in a factory. that is so disgusting and anti-life. you can not just treat autonomous life as objects to be manufactured. never an excuse. it's an unnatural, detestably evil practice designed to produce terror and suffering. it's a dark ritual on par with adrenochrome harvesting. yes literally a mass dark ritual, i'm not just throwing that term out there.

77 billion is not low, it's an abomination and this is a scar in human history that people will look back at the way we look back at things like the holocaust.

as if humans aren't smart enough to develop ways feed ourselves without factory farming animals. developing countries had an abundance of food before the industrial revolution and colonization screwed them over. - https://www.worldanimalfoundation.com/ad...use-hunger

i don't have time to do a bunch of research but a quick search says the opposite of what you claim. "This increase in factory farming is creating huge problems. In Bangladesh, for example, which is one of the world's poorest countries, battery hen systems have become widespread. The country has massive shortages of food, many unemployed people and very little money to spare. Factory farming needs money for equipment, creates hardly any jobs and uses up much valuable plant food that could be fed to people." - https://www.worldanimalfoundation.com/ad...use-hunger

this article is also very informative with lots of sources: https://www.ciwf.org.uk/factory-farming/...d-poverty/

I never made any claims about morality. My statement may be worded a bit confusingly. Ethically and sustainably raising animals and plants is one way of farming, factory farming is another. I did not intend to imply that factory farming is the same as raising food in an ethical or sustainable manner.

77 billion is low when there are 7 billion people. Especially if this includes animals like Quail, Duck, Chickens, and other small animals which are eaten.

Factory farming methods extend to plant production too. Rice cannot be produced on the scale needed to feed billions in two geographic regions each the same size or smaller than the US without using factory methods. The population pre industrial revolution was around 1 billion people worldwide and most people were farmers, it cannot be compared to modern food needs.

[confusedseeker]

Yes I also ponderd about this idea, and I sometimes watch documentaries where they feature organic farms who raise animals and treat them humanely, as you say, and one of the farmers also touched upon this and said "is it ok to still eat meat" and his answer was "yes as long as the animal had a good life".
And just imagine, when I saw him petting his little pigs in the wooden shed and how they were running around outside in the mud and enjoying it so much, like little children, it got me thinking how these animals actually have a quite good life. And before they get old and "rheumatic" and get their old age illnesses etc, they are killed and don't have to go thru this.....
infact I was thinking about this when my mum was suffering so much at the end of her life, so much pain and the painkillers sometimes even made it worse so that she was barely conscious.... I remember talking about it to my friend and saying "we would never let our pets be in so much pain, the vet would give them an deadly injection if the case was hopeless,  but for humans there is no other alternative"
And then I saw a documentary about a small buddhist community here in Germany, where the monks are mostly begging for their life sustenance and I was actually surprised to see they were eating meat also  and his explanation was quite interesting to me - he said, "everything we are given is a gift. Whatever people people offer us (in terms of food), we see it as a gift and we give thanks and blessings"

Great post indeed. Animals are a gift, and there is a reason their nutrition is absolutely craved by our digestive/biological systems (DHA, EPA, vitamin D, K2, B12), but we should always be mindful of their treatment.

From a purely health perspective, the two biggest culprits to our decline are: Sugar and Plant Oils/byproducts (Soy especially).

[schubert]

I never made any claims about morality. My statement may be worded a bit confusingly. Ethically and sustainably raising animals and plants is one way of farming, factory farming is another. I did not intend to imply that factory farming is the same as raising food in an ethical or sustainable manner.

77 billion is low when there are 7 billion people. Especially if this includes animals like Quail, Duck, Chickens, and other small animals which are eaten.

Factory farming methods extend to plant production too. Rice cannot be produced on the scale needed to feed billions in two geographic regions each the same size or smaller than the US without using factory methods. The population pre industrial revolution was around 1 billion people worldwide and most people were farmers, it cannot be compared to modern food needs.

i know you're just making a logical point when you say 77 billion is low when there's 7 billion people. the issue i have is how detached that sounds from the horror these animals experience. you make that statement matter-of-factly as if it's no big deal. it's a bit disturbing to be frank. to reiterate it, that's 77 billion land animals per year.. for many years. these are beings with emotional needs like love and freedom just like us. pigs for example outperform 3 year olds in cognitive tests. chickens are very smart too. animals are similar to toddlers in a lot of ways. and factory farming has them live their entire life in hell, tortured and slaughtered. so the point i'm making is i don't care about the context, 77 billion is not low, and to assert that point at all seems very detached to me.

factory farming plants is a whole other discussion that i'm not nearly as concerned about. there's key differences like how they don't have nervous systems, and are a different density of consciousness (2nd vs animals being 3rd). edit: animals are still 2nd density, albeit upper 2nd and have become "enspirited" https://www.lawofone.info/s/19#2.

Great post indeed.  Animals are a gift, and there is a reason their nutrition is absolutely craved by our digestive/biological systems (DHA, EPA, vitamin D, K2, B12), but we should always be mindful of their treatment.  

From a purely health perspective, the two biggest culprits to our decline are:  Sugar and Plant Oils/byproducts (Soy especially).

you're of course entirely entitled to your viewpoint, but to add my viewpoint, animals are not 'a gift'. they are their own soul for goodness sake. it's one thing for a buddhist to literally receive a gift/food donation of meat, but it's a whole other thing to say 'animals are a gift'. to sum them up as a gift for us is very egocentric in my opinion. the video i linked talks about how the animals involved in factory farming and whatnot are serving humanity in the way of providing opportunity to learn compassion... i.e. providing us opportunity to stop looking at them as objects for consumption and start showing them love, care, and decency. about the buddhist community, i would quickly add that perhaps that's a lesson that they should be more proactive so they're not at the mercy of what people gift them.

their nutrition is not necessarily craved by us.. this sounds like a roundabout way of saying we need to eat meat to be healthy. i know for one that i don't crave meat. i think that mostly comes from cultural conditioning and being raised on the standard american diet that pushes meat and animal products so heavily (because there are very dark beings at the top that want to create that intense suffering and feed it to people to keep them from ascending, as well as lower people's health and probably dark stuff involving loosh https://ascensionglossary.com/index.php/Loosh).

fish get dha/epa from algae, and i take a supplement that gets them from algae. i get vitamin d from sunlight or a supplement that sources it from lichen, vitamin k from leafy greens like kale, and b12 from a supplement (you can't actually utilize the b12 in meat, it's meant for the animal's nervous system and doesn't convert over).

[flofrog]

It’s hard to even think that animals spend their life in cages, overfed, and unmoving. Who needs horror movies.

[Dtris]

I never made any claims about morality. My statement may be worded a bit confusingly. Ethically and sustainably raising animals and plants is one way of farming, factory farming is another. I did not intend to imply that factory farming is the same as raising food in an ethical or sustainable manner.

77 billion is low when there are 7 billion people. Especially if this includes animals like Quail, Duck, Chickens, and other small animals which are eaten.

Factory farming methods extend to plant production too. Rice cannot be produced on the scale needed to feed billions in two geographic regions each the same size or smaller than the US without using factory methods. The population pre industrial revolution was around 1 billion people worldwide and most people were farmers, it cannot be compared to modern food needs.

i know you're just making a logical point when you say 77 billion is low when there's 7 billion people. the issue i have is how detached that sounds from the horror these animals experience. you make that statement matter-of-factly as if it's no big deal. it's a bit disturbing to be frank. to reiterate it, that's 77 billion land animals per year.. for many years. these are beings with emotional needs like love and freedom just like us. pigs for example outperform 3 year olds in cognitive tests. chickens are very smart too. animals are similar to toddlers in a lot of ways. and factory farming has them live their entire life in hell, tortured and slaughtered. so the point i'm making is i don't care about the context, 77 billion is not low, and to assert that point at all seems very detached to me.

factory farming plants is a whole other discussion that i'm not nearly as concerned about. there's key differences like how they don't have nervous systems, and are a different density of consciousness (2nd vs animals being 3rd).

Great post indeed.  Animals are a gift, and there is a reason their nutrition is absolutely craved by our digestive/biological systems (DHA, EPA, vitamin D, K2, B12), but we should always be mindful of their treatment.  

From a purely health perspective, the two biggest culprits to our decline are:  Sugar and Plant Oils/byproducts (Soy especially).

you're of course entirely entitled to your viewpoint, but to add my viewpoint, animals are not 'a gift'. they are their own soul for goodness sake. it's one thing for a buddhist to literally receive a gift/food donation of meat, but it's a whole other thing to say 'animals are a gift'. to sum them up as a gift for us is very egocentric in my opinion. the video i linked talks about how the animals involved in factory farming and whatnot are serving humanity in the way of providing opportunity to learn compassion... i.e. providing us opportunity to stop looking at them as objects for consumption and start showing them love, care, and decency. about the buddhist community, i would quickly add that perhaps that's a lesson that they should be more proactive so they're not at the mercy of what people gift them.

their nutrition is not necessarily craved by us.. this sounds like a roundabout way of saying we need to eat meat to be healthy. i know for one that i don't crave meat. i think that mostly comes from cultural conditioning and being raised on the standard american diet that pushes meat and animal products so heavily (because there are very dark beings at the top that want to create that intense suffering and feed it to people to keep them from ascending, as well as lower people's health and probably dark stuff involving loosh https://ascensionglossary.com/index.php/Loosh).

fish get dha/epa from algae, and i take a supplement that gets them from algae. i get vitamin d from sunlight or a supplement that sources it from lichen, vitamin k from leafy greens like kale, and b12 from a supplement (you can't actually utilize the b12 in meat, it's meant for the animal's nervous system and doesn't convert over).

How many of those 77 billion animals are actually raised in factory farms? How many experience the horrors you talk about? I assume the number is worldwide consumption of land animals. Factory farming is not ubiquitous to the entire globe for every animal eaten. We have at least the entire Jewish and Muslim populations which must eat meat which has been slaughtered in a very humane way. Farms are all over the US where people raise their own and the communities food and never use factory methods. Some other countries are still using traditional farming as well with local slaughterhouses or personally slaughtering their own food.

The US is probably the most factory farming intense nation as a portion of the market and 85% of cows, 65% of pigs, and 51% of chickens are produced by the 4 largest agribusiness conglomerates. Which means at least 25% of total consumption of those three is coming from traditional farming methods.

Just because an animal is farm raised does not mean it did not live well while it was alive or that it was slaughtered inhumanely. I can't find any statistics but I would not be surprised if factory farming only makes up half of worldwide consumption. All the cattle farms around my area are open pasture and they raise meat cattle.

Life in our density requires the consumption of other life. I am not bothered by that fact. I would rather the animals live as well as possible and be slaughtered as humanely as possible. Which is why I buy organic when I can and support local farms. Humans evolved to eat meat. It is what supported the development of our huge brains. Whether you agree or disagree the fact is most people eat meat. It is considered nutritionally vital in poor countries where it is hard to get. People will always eat meat, given the context, 7 animals per person is not very many. How many animals do you think a wild cat or dog kills and eats in a year? Do you get mad at a cat for killing and eating a mouse or bird? You may feel bad for the mouse or bird but does that mean you kill the cat?

I have been hearing the same arguments for decades. What is true and what almost everyone supports is that the animals we raise for food should be allowed to live outside, as nature intended, and slaughtered in a way that causes the least amount of suffering. The awareness of factory farming atrocities which has been propagated by PETA and vegetarian/vegan activists has ironically not increased the number of vegetarians/vegans (5-6% and 2-3% according to gallup from 1999-2018 and 2012-2018 respectively) but has IMO directly contributed to the growing number of organic, free range, cage free, and local purchase of food.

The US and the EU is experiencing a large push against agribusiness and factory farming methods based largely on animal welfare and nutritional content of food.

On density, I must disagree with you about the density of animals. Other than dolphins which Hatonn has said are third density, animals and plants are both second density according to Ra and the other LL sources.

19.2 Questioner: Let’s take the point at which an individualized entity of second density is ready for transition to third. Is this second-density being what we would call animal?

Ra: I am Ra. There are three types of second-density entities which become, shall we say, enspirited. The first is the animal. This is the most predominant. The second is the vegetable, most especially that which you call sound vibration complex “tree.” These entities are capable of giving and receiving enough love to become individualized. The third category is mineral. Occasionally a certain location, place as you may call it, becomes energized to individuality through the love it receives and gives in relationship to a third-density entity which is in relationship to it. This is the least common transition.

You are also completely wrong on your statement about B12. The only bioavailable B12 comes from bacteria, these bacteria are pretty much all inside animals. You even have some inside of you, producing vitamin B12 too. But you can't absorb it since the bacteria are located in your colon and humans cannot absorb B12 from their colon. Herbivores however can absorb B12 and other nutrients from their colons/rumens. B12 supplements are made synthetically, all other naturally occurring bio-available B12 comes from animals. Plants which contain B12 contain an inactive form which is actually an analog, the same molecule but different shape and cannot be utilized. There may be some algae that has B12 active form but it is still being researched. https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Vitami...fessional/

If you couldn't use the B12 in meat, humans wouldn't exist since we would have all died out from pernicious anemia.

[schubert]

How many of those 77 billion animals are actually raised in factory farms? How many experience the horrors you talk about?

why you askin me... "We estimate that over 90% of farmed animals globally are living in factory farms at present." "We estimate that 99% of US farmed animals are living in factory farms at present." https://www.sentienceinstitute.org/globa...-estimates & https://www.sentienceinstitute.org/us-fa...-estimates. if you search "what percent of animals are factory farmed worldwide" google's top result says "Over 70% of the world's farm animals are now factory farmed", key word is "farm" animals, i.e. land animals. scienceinstitute.org clarifies the details: "This includes an estimated 74% of farmed land animals (vertebrates only) and virtually all farmed fish." i had looked this up before posting my last comment but didn't fit it in. i'm surprised it's this high, but i guess it makes sense considering fast food and all the processed meat in grocery stores.

given the context, 7 animals per person is not very many. How many animals do you think a wild cat or dog kills and eats in a year? Do you get mad at a cat for killing and eating a mouse or bird? You may feel bad for the mouse or bird but does that mean you kill the cat?

we never touched on 1.2 trillion aquatic animals are killed per year for food.

can't believe you're making these points about wild animals... this is just trife. they don't use factory farms. the animals they're killing are also in the wild and lived natural lives. they're part of earth's natural ecosystem and eat to survive, not to fill their gut with bacon and fast food.

What is true and what almost everyone supports is that the animals we raise for food should be allowed to live outside, as nature intended, and slaughtered in a way that causes the least amount of suffering.

? this statement is meaningless... people can say or think that all they want but they vote with their choices, and factory farmed meat is extremely popular. just look at the statistics and fast food and the shelves and shelves of meat and items that contain processed meat/animal products in grocery stores.

On density, I must disagree with you about the density of animals. Other than dolphins which Hatonn has said are third density, animals and plants are both second density according to Ra and the other LL sources.

yeah i got that wrong. i've read that before. maybe some bias on my part slipping in or maybe a freudian slip and i've started thinking of animals as 3rd density haha. some interesting details about them being "enspirited" here https://www.lawofone.info/s/19#2.

You are also completely wrong on your statement about B12.

you are so confident in asserting this... you don't ask why or where that info comes from, you just say i'm completely wrong.

more about it here: https://www.medicalmedium.com/blog/b12-t...-from-meat "B12 Trick Or Treat - You Don't Get It From Meat" and here https://www.medicalmedium.com/blog/heali...its-of-b12. these articles address some of the things you said. you're not gonna find that info anywhere else because he gets his info from a higher source (he doesn't channel which would open up the possibility of inaccuracy, he hears a voice that he can't control). about blood tests, "You may be thinking you are not at risk of B12 deficiency because tests have shown normal, or even high vitamin B12 levels in your blood. These results do not necessarily mean that the B12 in your body is usable and being absorbed where it needs to in the body. The central nervous system, liver, and other organs may still be severely deficient."

[Patrick]

There is one thing that should not be underestimated when going vegan. You have to properly inform yourself. There are important things to be aware of beyond stuff like B12. If that is done with intent, you can spend your whole life healthily on veganism.

[Diana]

There is one thing that should not be underestimated when going vegan. You have to properly inform yourself. There are important things to be aware of beyond stuff like B12. If that is done with intent, you can spend your whole life healthily on veganism.

I know you mean well Patrick  but this idea comes off as rather a scare tactic in my opinion. And the following comments are not aimed at you, but are general.

Firstly, let me make a distinction between vegan and plant-based. Plant-based just means the diet consists of plants only, with no animals (including fish) or animal by-products. Vegan means your diet is plant-based, but in addition to that, you endeavor to not support the use of animals for any purpose such as leather products and entertainment (rodeos, circuses, etc.).

The truth is that our societal notions of what is healthy are twisted and skewed for so many reasons. The biggest is the meat and dairy industry, which has been driving the information for many decades for profit. I could go on with this idea of driving information but we get into "conspiracies" of which there are many in this case, and I will avoid that for now. But I will say that the advertising campaign of meat and dairy being good for humans has been brainwashing people for a very long time.

B-12 is in soil, and if we didn't wash our vegetables, we would get it. We wash our vegetables, so we take supplements. That's about it. Other than that I can absolutely assure everyone here that a plant-based diet is very healthy. Of course, in any diet, to be healthy, one needs to eat whole foods, not processed junk. It is illogical to think that vegans must be extra careful, while omnivores do not. Do omnivores carefully plan out their meals to make sure they get everything they need? Does it make sense that because one eats meat (dead carcasses) that they are good to go with all the minerals and nutrients the body needs? It is proven over and over again that meat and dairy contribute to disease. No one ever proved that eating vegetables contributes to disease.

I am living proof that eating a plant-based diet is healthy. I am not the only one however. There are countless examples to be found on the Internet. And when looking at the (US at least) population, and seeing the amount of overweight unhealthy people (including children) who eat meat and dairy, it is worth considering that a plant-based diet is a wise choice. I will also say that children who are fed nonorganic meat are consuming the growth hormones in the meat, and therefore grow bigger, fatter, and mature earlier sexually; and in addition consume the hormones produced from fear and terror, in the form of protein chains.

This is to say nothing of the health of this planet, and compassion for other life forms, namely animals, who have a central nervous system and feel pain, terror, resist being slaughtered, scream and mourn when their offspring are taken from them (cows and pigs), and more atrocities no one wants to think about. The very lame excuse that plants have feelings too, seems to be a popular justification for these atrocities. Plants do not have a central nervous system, and while they may have an instinct for survival, they offer themselves for food to us (along with a list of other reasons why they are are a good and compassionate choice for food).

It is true that factory-farmed plants are not ideal either. But to say factory-farmed plant crops is equal to factory-farmed animals, without going into the horror of it, just seems blind to me. If you don't think so, visit a slaughterhouse.

I know there are those who feel they must consume animal food. I don't agree, but I don't decide things for others. On the other hand, I will advocate for our brothers and sisters of the animal kingdom because they have no voice with which to do so.

[Patrick]

Oh I agree Diana. The whole thing about B12 pills not being a requirement is exactly a good example of why I say they need to inform themselves properly.

It's not just a change in diet, it's a change of the whole way of life.

Far from me the idea of scaring people. It is simply because I have seen too many people watching documentary on factory farming and, understandably, switching directly from the SAD to vegan for a couple years to just revert back and then bad mouth veganism and start advocating that you can only be healthy with vegetarianism or even meat eating.

If they had taken the time to educate themselves properly they would not have faced those issues.

The issue is not with stopping the consumption of any animal products, the issue is trying to continue the same way of life as they had on the SAD but without any animal products. In my opinion, the health issues they encounter is not even related to B12, because so many meat replacement products out there already have added B12 and these people will normally consume a lot of that stuff.

I think it might be related to focusing too much on proteins. We need so much less than people think (another good reason to properly educate oneself).

[Louisabell]

Diana, I so agree with you about the ethical argument for veganism/plant-based diets, but I do think that to ensure the long-term success of someone on a plant based diet that there exists certain protocols to follow. Things you probably do already. Such as the regular consumption of legumes/pumpkin seeds for protein, zinc and iron, leafy greens/almonds for calcium, flaxseed or walnuts for omega 3. The awesome benefit is that all those foods also have heaps of micronutrients that animal products don't have.

The B12 and Vitamin D supplements are a non-issue for me because even meat-eaters get deficient in those things, but yes B12 must be taken as a vegan.

It is not conclusive whether humans need DHA as we make it ourselves from Omega 3, but if someone wanted to, fish is also an unreliable source of it. Some fish have a lot, while others have barely any or none at all. Also fish is some of the most toxic foods from pollutants in oceans, and it is in the fat where most of it is stored. Getting DHA from farmed algae is arguably the best way, it's reliable and free from heavy metals.

Saying that you refuse supplements because they are "artificial" is bazaar reasoning to me. Indoor lighting is artificial also, but we still use it because it's a beneficial technology. I'm not sure about the B12 in the soil argument, you need cobalt for B12 and our soils are degraded. Even livestock need to be supplemented with B12. So when you eat animals for B12, you are also taking it from a supplement indirectly. I recall there being research that the most likely way humans reliably got B12 without supplements in the food chain was from drinking from natural streams of water. The sanitization of water is beneficial for infectious diseases so we are left with supplements, which is so fine. There have been extensive studies on cyanocobalamin, and it's safe and it works.

Anyway, I say this because I am passionate about this way of eating, and I hope to prevent those "ex-vegan, veganism destroyed my health" testimonials that started becoming popular on social media. Some people are better absorbers of nutrients than others, so following RDIs for macronutrients are a good thing.

[Dtris]

There is one thing that should not be underestimated when going vegan. You have to properly inform yourself. There are important things to be aware of beyond stuff like B12. If that is done with intent, you can spend your whole life healthily on veganism.

I know you mean well Patrick  but this idea comes off as rather a scare tactic in my opinion. And the following comments are not aimed at you, but are general.

Firstly, let me make a distinction between vegan and plant-based. Plant-based just means the diet consists of plants only, with no animals (including fish) or animal by-products. Vegan means your diet is plant-based, but in addition to that, you endeavor to not support the use of animals for any purpose such as leather products and entertainment (rodeos, circuses, etc.).

The truth is that our societal notions of what is healthy are twisted and skewed for so many reasons. The biggest is the meat and dairy industry, which has been driving the information for many decades for profit. I could go on with this idea of driving information but we get into "conspiracies" of which there are many in this case, and I will avoid that for now. But I will say that the advertising campaign of meat and dairy being good for humans has been brainwashing people for a very long time.

B-12 is in soil, and if we didn't wash our vegetables, we would get it. We wash our vegetables, so we take supplements. That's about it. Other than that I can absolutely assure everyone here that a plant-based diet is very healthy. Of course, in any diet, to be healthy, one needs to eat whole foods, not processed junk. It is illogical to think that vegans must be extra careful, while omnivores do not. Do omnivores carefully plan out their meals to make sure they get everything they need? Does it make sense that because one eats meat (dead carcasses) that they are good to go with all the minerals and nutrients the body needs? It is proven over and over again that meat and dairy contribute to disease. No one ever proved that eating vegetables contributes to disease.

I am living proof that eating a plant-based diet is healthy. I am not the only one however. There are countless examples to be found on the Internet. And when looking at the (US at least) population, and seeing the amount of overweight unhealthy people (including children) who eat meat and dairy, it is worth considering that a plant-based diet is a wise choice. I will also say that children who are fed non-organic meat are consuming the growth hormones in the meat, and therefore grow bigger, fatter, and mature earlier sexually; and in addition consume the hormones produced from fear and terror, in the form of protein chains.

This is to say nothing of the health of this planet, and compassion for other life forms, namely animals, who have a central nervous system and feel pain, terror, resist being slaughtered, scream and mourn when their offspring are taken from them (cows and pigs), and more atrocities no one wants to think about. The very lame excuse that plants have feelings too, seems to be a popular justification for these atrocities. Plants do not have a central nervous system, and while they may have an instinct for survival, they offer themselves for food to us (along with a list of other reasons why they are are a good and compassionate choice for food).

It is true that factory-farmed plants are not ideal either. But to say factory-farmed plant crops is equal to factory-farmed animals, without going into the horror of it, just seems blind to me. If you don't think so, visit a slaughterhouse.

I know there are those who feel they must consume animal food. I don't agree, but I don't decide things for others. On the other hand, I will advocate for our brothers and sisters of the animal kingdom because they have no voice with which to do so.

You act like the lobby for plant based foods is any less powerful. There is a reason that grain was considered the base of the food pyramid and it has nothing to do with health. Agribusiness is a huge lobby, Cargill and Monsanto have enormous influence in the FDA and USDA. The institutions and people who push veganism and vegetarianism are also well funded and perform loads of biased research. This research is good enough to convince most people but is full of mistakes.

My experience is the opposite. Dairy and meat are healthy, so are traditionally prepared grains and fruits and vegetables, and nuts and legumes. The processes we use to make food are what are unhealthy. This is as true for meat and dairy as it is for grain and other foods. Eating a diet devoid of all animal products is not a wise choice for children. It has harmed many children and kills several each year. https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=vegan+c...ths&ia=web

Do you know why B12 is in soil? It is because animals poop. All B12 comes from bacteria which is found in the lower intestine of animals. This is why before we could synthesize B12 vegans with pernicious anemia were treated with making a liquid preparation of their own stool. The only traditional vegetarian cultures used their own waste as fertilizer and as you say, weren't good at washing the food.

Animals eating a diet that is what they evolved to eat are able to not carefully plan their meals. Animals which do not have access to their natural diets must have carefully planned meals. This extends to pets and farm animals as well as animals in zoos and nature preserves.

The need to carefully plan vegetarian meals mainly stems from requiring all the different essential amino acids. Only a handful of plant sources contain complete protein with all the essential amino acids. While they do not necessarily need to be consumed all at once an adequate amount of each type must be consumed. There are also some foods which must be prepared in certain ways or eaten in combination with others to get the nutrition from those foods. If you only eat black beans for example you would be deficient in lysine. The danger of getting inadequate protein is usually overstated though as long as you eat a variety of foods.

I have tried vegetarianism and I was not well on that diet. I have also eaten only meat and was able to sustain that much longer and felt much better. Ultimately though for myself a diet which is a combination of the two works best as long as the food is minimally processed. Eating processed garbage of either variety results in weight gain and sickness.

I also never equated eating plants with animals. I simply pointed out that both use factory methods and that plants and animals are of the same density. You can make a moral argument about the pain which animals experience and you can choose whether to contribute or not. Buying fake meat, soy products, corn, wheat and other factory farmed plant products kills animals too, how many is uncertain https://www.anthropocenemagazine.org/201...riculture/. I will say the whole CNS thing is a cop out IMO. We do not know the nature of plant consciousness or how much they are capable of feeling.

I have spent the last 15 years reading about diet and nutrition and looking at the science. It is clear to me that humans are evolved to eat meat but capable of eating very little to thrive depending on the exact diet. How each person decides to provide for their own nutrition is a personal choice, but for most people that includes eating animals. I won't begrudge a person for eating as nature intended. I have also accepted that other animals will die so I can continue to live. What comes along with death is part of that, it is part of being alive. I , like most people, do not like seeing animals suffer either, which is why there is a trend away from factory farming and to organic and traditional farming, especially for meat sources.

[confusedseeker]

Dtris knows his stuff.

All you really need is Weston A Price. Also, it's one thing to make a choice as adults to live that lifestyle, but it's another for developing children.

[Aion]

For myself, I admit I am not entirely convinced that there is any singular diet which is the end-all "best" diet for humans. From what it seems to me, human bodies vary immensely in their construction and needs. I think that in general most people would be perfectly fine on a plant-based diet, but not everyone.

For example, my fiance was raised in a vegan/vegetarian household, and she has issues with iron deficiency and can become anemic. They tried many different supplements which weren't effective, and due to her wide array of allergies many of the typical plant-based alternatives are not options. However, when she eats meat, she is able to maintain her iron levels and doesn't become anemic. This is actually very difficult for her because she is incredibly dedicated to animals and is very conscientious of their suffering. Sometimes, it's not as simple of a choice for different people. One of my friends' father actually can't eat plants at all because of a surgery procedure which affected his intestines, he can only process meat. I think it is a tricky topic to make vast generalizations about, as I think is the case for anything regarding health, personally.

I feel like it goes without saying the cruelty that exists through factory farming, it is pretty plain to see there is nothing natural about it. I live in a place where there are a lot of hippies and people who try to live off the land. Plenty of foragers and hunters.

What I think we need is to "go back" to the creation of food forests. When Europeans first came to the "new world" they were amazed to find long trails and areas which were lined with berries and other foods. These had been crafted over hundreds of years by the many indigenous peoples. The real question is, why have we put food in a box? Food can be grown in so many places, it should be lining the streets and collected for communities by communities. We have to stop putting nature "out there" and let it in to the cities so that it can nourish us.

[flofrog]

oh Aion,  

" why have we put food in a box "

is the wisest thing said about the problem we have created with agriculture.

[Diana]

What I think we need is to "go back" to the creation of food forests. When Europeans first came to the "new world" they were amazed to find long trails and areas which were lined with berries and other foods. These had been crafted over hundreds of years by the many indigenous peoples. The real question is, why have we put food in a box? Food can be grown in so many places, it should be lining the streets and collected for communities by communities. We have to stop putting nature "out there" and let it in to the cities so that it can nourish us.

This is a lovely idea.

My thinking is that going back is never the answer because we evolve as a species and as societies. However, referencing this way of being is something which can inform how we move forward.

Why we put food in a box will open up all sorts of conspiracies, so I will not go there; as factory-farming both animals and plants is not based on altruistic intentions.

In order to get to a place in 4D, which I can only imagine will eventually happen, where we cease treating other life forms as though they were all here just to serve us, and since humankind seems to evolve as a whole so very, very slowly, a future goal might be envisioned, and steps toward that goal be taken.

Here, we have a goal we might intend to work toward: 

43.20 ▶ Questioner: I’m guessing that it is not necessary to ingest food in fifth density. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is incorrect. However, the vehicle needs food which may be prepared by thought.

43.21 ▶ Questioner: What type of food would this be?

Ra: I am Ra. You would call this type of food nectar, or ambrosia, or a light broth of golden white hue.

43.22 ▶ Questioner: What is the purpose of ingesting food in fifth density?

Ra: I am Ra. This is a somewhat central point. The purpose of space/time is the increase in catalytic action appropriate to the density. One of the preconditions for space/time existence is some form of body complex. Such a body complex must be fueled in some way.

 
And here, we have Ra speaking of consuming animal blood and fear:

43.5 ▶ Questioner: I’ll just try to pick up the last question left over from the last session. If you can answer it— I don’t know if it is of any importance, but it just occurred to me that the parts removed in cattle mutilations are the same every time, and I just wondered if this was related to the energy centers and why they were important if that was so?

Ra: I am Ra. This is basically correct if you may understand that there is a link between energy centers and various thought-forms. Thus the fears of the mass consciousness create the climate for the concentration upon the removal of bodily parts which symbolize areas of concern or fear in the mass consciousness.

43.6 ▶ Questioner: Are you saying, then, that these parts that are removed are related to the mass consciousness of the third-density human form on the planet and this fear is being used in some way by the second-density entities or, correction, the thought-form entities that do the mutilations?

Ra: I am Ra. This is correct as latterly stated. The thought-form entities feed upon fear; thus they are able to do precise damage according to systems of symbology. The other second-density types of which you speak need the, what you call, blood.

So somewhere between 3D fear and eating animals from whom this fear definitely is generated and is consumed when eating them (and this fear will be generated even when the animals are given a good life then slaughtered, as they do not want to die and will be afraid; though this method is so far better than factory farming and constitutes a huge step forward), and, the light ambrosia Ra speaks of which is consumed in 5D, we may find a path.

[Patrick]

...(and this fear will be generated even when the animals are given a good life then slaughtered, as they do not want to die and will be afraid; though this method is so far better than factory farming and constitutes a huge step forward)...

Here is a good article on that subject.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7278393/


Also, we could optimize food with the following approach.

https://www.pnas.org/content/118/26/e2015025118

It's the closest to us eating sunlight and air.

[flofrog]

Awesome work Patrick...

[confusedseeker]

For myself, I admit I am not entirely convinced that there is any singular diet which is the end-all "best" diet for humans. From what it seems to me, human bodies vary immensely in their construction and needs.

Basically agree. We are omnivores for a reason. I think people becoming too strict either way is depriving our digestive systems in some way. Usually when we crave something, I think it's our body/mind telling us something is off or missing (except for sugar and caffeine, which are basically drugs lol).

Also, if you're vegan, you might want to try supplementing with amino acids and creatine. Creatine specifically has been known to raise the cognition of people on vegan diets.

[Diana]

...(and this fear will be generated even when the animals are given a good life then slaughtered, as they do not want to die and will be afraid; though this method is so far better than factory farming and constitutes a huge step forward)...

Here is a good article on that subject.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7278393/

This is an excellent treatise and objective view on the subject of animal slaughter.

I always thought "humane slaughter" was an oxymoron, since, we would never slaughter humans (now).

Also, we could optimize food with the following approach.

https://www.pnas.org/content/118/26/e2015025118

It's the closest to us eating sunlight and air.

Another excellent article. This is the sort of innovation I was referring to earlier, when I said that the past can inform us as we move forward. We will, as creative beings, come up with new ways—such as Photovoltaic-driven microbial protein production as is covered in the article—to survive and harmonize with the environment and the other life forms on this planet, which is also a being.

Thank you Patrick for finding and posting these articles.