[split] Knowing that you cannot know

[Patrick]

Mod note: This was split from His Story and the past of humanity

--

You cannot understand these topics until you have earned the right via the work of mastering the chakras. It is only with the distortions that you are able to make much headway, because at a higher realm, you would understand even less those topics beyond your grasp and level.

No matter how much information is gathered from veiled third density, the result is distorted. This is done on purpose so that we finally learn to release the attempt, in faith.

This is the greater lesson in Love we are undergoing down here.

You say often that we are undergoing a test. This is it. Any attempts at subjective knowing does not give more freedom than this release in love and faith.

...This is not a dimension of knowing, even subjectively, due to the lack of overview of cosmic and other inpourings which affect each and every situation which produces catalyst. The subjective acceptance of that which is at the moment and the finding of love within that moment is the greater freedom.

That known as the subjective knowing without proof is, in some degree, a poor friend for there will be anomalies no matter how much information is garnered due to the distortions which form third density.

[Ymarsakar]

You cannot understand these topics until you have earned the right via the work of mastering the chakras. It is only with the distortions that you are able to make much headway, because at a higher realm, you would understand even less those topics beyond your grasp and level.

No matter how much information is gathered from veiled third density, the result is distorted. This is done on purpose so that we finally learn to release the attempt, in faith.

This is the greater lesson in Love we are undergoing down here.

You say often that we are undergoing a test. This is it. Any attempts at subjective knowing does not give more freedom than this release in love and faith.

...This is not a dimension of knowing, even subjectively, due to the lack of overview of cosmic and other inpourings which affect each and every situation which produces catalyst. The subjective acceptance of that which is at the moment and the finding of love within that moment is the greater freedom.

That known as the subjective knowing without proof is, in some degree, a poor friend for there will be anomalies no matter how much information is garnered due to the distortions which form third density.

What are you learning on this thread? I do not see any progress or difference.

What does a person who do not know nor wish to know, seek to accomplish by telling us what it is?

61.9 is not answering my question nor do you have a relevant question.

Out of context.

Do you know why questions are asked and answered?

It is so it is harder to take them out of context and used for human ego reasons.

You cannot understand the anzwer until you read the question.

Address my question originally.

[Patrick]

Mostly I am learning about how true what Ra told us actually is. That the only thing we can know is... that we cannot know.

Trying to understand how things works in the Creation, while incarnated here, serves only one purpose. To make us realize that we cannot.

What is there to do after this realization? For me, the only thing left to do is help others realize this as well. Using science, using technology, using spirituality, using humor, using tenderness, using kindness, using logic, using firmness even, whatever works in helping people realize this only Truth accessible to us. That all these tools we have are meaningless in themselves.

This sandbox we are in, exists only for this purpose. To try everything we can using our tiny blind will. To experience all we wish. So that in the end you are left without any doubts that anything you do is never good enough, never perfect enough.

Realizing that there exists no method of reaching undistorted knowledge from here, other than this realization itself.

Doing this helps people realize that believing there is a way to reach knowledge from here only leads them even more astray than we already are by default in veiled 3d.

Because believing this enables people to create a framework that they believe is somehow failsafe, while no such things are possible.

I believe only the left hand path can take that approach of believing they can know anything while here. There is nothing else for them to believe. They are certainly not going to wish to release their will in faith, that would be antithesis to what they stand for. I think STS might even be afraid of this concept and will fight tooth and nails to defend their built up framework of reality. They are the ones that will truly believe that this "reality" is a prison. Only STS teachings would make us believe that the Creator is a jailor and that you must absolutely keep a hold of your tiny will. Otherwise you are snuff up by the Creator.

When those walking the right hand path finally releases their tiny will, they do not know any more after than they did before BUT they can observe the effect this has on their experience and the experience of others. EVERYTHING starts going better. There is a perfect plan, but we can never see it, so we can never manifest it.

By releasing, then you let the YOU who can see all finally manifest that perfect plan.

[flofrog]

Perhaps we see this as an effort, while in 6th there is in fact a 'bliss' in the ongoing search ?

Plus in 6th, service to others keeps happening if we take Ra as an exemple.
And if you take Michael Newton's view in Journey if Souls, we see that in time/space instead of being a kind of heaven's resting place, there is this intense complex structure of hierarchy where everyone is hard at work, lol

[Relax]

You cannot understand these topics until you have earned the right via the work of mastering the chakras. It is only with the distortions that you are able to make much headway, because at a higher realm, you would understand even less those topics beyond your grasp and level.

No matter how much information is gathered from veiled third density, the result is distorted. This is done on purpose so that we finally learn to release the attempt, in faith.

This is the greater lesson in Love we are undergoing down here.

You say often that we are undergoing a test. This is it. Any attempts at subjective knowing does not give more freedom than this release in love and faith.

...This is not a dimension of knowing, even subjectively, due to the lack of overview of cosmic and other inpourings which affect each and every situation which produces catalyst. The subjective acceptance of that which is at the moment and the finding of love within that moment is the greater freedom.

That known as the subjective knowing without proof is, in some degree, a poor friend for there will be anomalies no matter how much information is garnered due to the distortions which form third density.

16.39 Questioner: I am assuming it is not necessary for an individual to understand the Law of One to go from third to fourth density. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. It is absolutely necessary that an entity consciously realize it does not understand in order for it to be harvestable.

Understanding is not of this density.

16.40 Questioner: That is a very important point. I used the wrong word. What I meant to say was I believe that it was not necessary for an entity to be consciously aware of the Law of One to go from third to fourth density.

Ra: I am Ra. This is correct.

[Patrick]

16.39: ...It is absolutely necessary that an entity consciously realize it does not understand in order for it to be harvestable...

<sigh>

Ra always says things better than I possibly can.  

I used so many words in my clumsy attempt when a single sentence suffice.  

"Absolutely necessary" is quite eloquently loud here.

--
By the way, this is related to the subject of this thread. When trying to know. Knowing about Earth history is included.

[flofrog]

but 'clumsy attempts' are always enlightening

on edit : I meant, afterwards we see where we are clumsy but we see the lightening part of it too

[Relax]

16.39: ...It is absolutely necessary that an entity consciously realize it does not understand in order for it to be harvestable...

<sigh>

Ra always says things better than I possibly can.  

I used so many words in my clumsy attempt when a single sentence suffice.  

"Absolutely necessary" is quite eloquently loud here.

--
By the way, this is related to the subject of this thread. When trying to know. Knowing about Earth history is included.

I think what you wrote was good - it brought to mind Ra's words so I added them. I 'set' them in a larger font because they're so lovely to me, and as you say - so succinct.

Has it felt like I was trying to 'show you up' or undermine you? I definitely wasn't trying to do that. The opposite.
Just to add to your words.

[Patrick]

...Has it felt like I was trying to 'show you up' or undermine you?...

Not at all. Thank you for reminding us that we cannot be harvested to 4D while believing we can know anything for sure (for those wishing a positive harvest).

It is a negative concept, this idea that it is possible to have access to absolute Truth.

[Ymarsakar]

https://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthre...#pid296372

I wrote about this quote that someone else referenced, and I put it in the waxxine mega thread. This quote would be the

16.38 Questioner: And then the Law of One is truly universal in creating the progression toward the eighth density or octave in all galaxies. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is correct. There are infinite forms, infinite understandings, but the progression is one.

16.39 Questioner: I am assuming it is not necessary for an individual to understand the Law of One to go from third to fourth density. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. It is absolutely necessary that an entity consciously realize it does not understand in order for it to be harvestable. Understanding is not of this density.

16.40 Questioner: That is a very important point. I used the wrong word. What I meant to say was I believe that it was not necessary for an entity to be consciously aware of the Law of One to go from third to fourth density.

Ra: I am Ra. This is correct.

16.41 Questioner: At what point in densities is it necessary for an entity to be consciously aware of the Law of One to progress?

Ra: I am Ra. The fifth-density harvest is of those whose vibratory distortions consciously accept the honor/duty of the Law of One. This responsibility/honor is the foundation of this vibration.

[Sacred Fool]

...Has it felt like I was trying to 'show you up' or undermine you?...

Not at all. Thank you for reminding us that we cannot be harvested to 4D while believing we can know anything for sure (for those wishing a positive harvest).

It is a negative concept, this idea that it is possible to have access to absolute Truth.

I wonder, dude, as I struggle to get a sense of what this kerfuffle is fuffling about, if at this stage you are being driven by what you call your tiny will or by something else?  If by something else, I wonder what that might be? 

Also...not trying to make a pretzel out of this, but...if you are so sure that you know nothing, especially nothing absolute, then pray tell, why are you so absolutely sure of your rhetorical position in this argument?

Again, I'm only asking because I can't understand it.  So, I guess Ra would approve of my ignorance?  Is that what you're saying?  Ignorance is the natural state of humanity?  Doesn't that sound a bit demeaning?  Is that really a Confederation principle?

This sandbox we are in, exists only for this purpose. To try everything we can using our tiny blind will. To experience all we wish. So that in the end you are left without any doubts that anything you do is never good enough, never perfect enough.

In my heart, I understand the teaching differently.  The point of releasing primacy of personal will and such things when we tire of a merely 1st-2nd-3rd chakra based existence is to encourage us to reach within our very Creatrix-composed beings to discover more beautiful means of expressing and enjoying the beauty of Creation.

But maybe that's off base?  Even if it is, it sounds pretty good to moi.

   

[Ymarsakar]

S Fool, yes that is a good few points.

[Patrick]

I wonder, dude, as I struggle to get a sense of what this kerfuffle is fuffling about, if at this stage you are being driven by what you call your tiny will or by something else?  If by something else, I wonder what that might be? 

Yes it's my tiny will.

I am asking the One to use me as his instrument. But we are all his instruments, so there is nothing special there.

Also...not trying to make a pretzel out of this, but...if you are so sure that you know nothing, especially nothing absolute, then pray tell, why are you so absolutely sure of your rhetorical position in this argument?

As I have mentioned. The only thing we can know for sure is this. That we cannot know anything else for sure. BUT we can know this.

This is very central knowing in order to help us remain as undistorted as possible.

There is value in knowing that this bozo is not the only one. There is value in knowing that we are all bozos and that it cannot be otherwise. It's the only thing we can know for sure.

Again, I'm only asking because I can't understand it.  So, I guess Ra would approve of my ignorance?  Is that what you're saying?  Ignorance is the natural state of humanity?  Doesn't that sound a bit demeaning?  Is that really a Confederation principle?

We can use our senses and catalogue how things are behaving inside our sandbox (i.e. science). Nothing says these behaviors will stay the same always, but they have been consistent enough so far to be useful (i.e. technology). But even here we can never know for sure. Even science recognizes that nothing can be proven.

On the nature of things and what is outside our sandbox, then we are seriously just stumbling around. Each of us, our personal experience highlights this well in my opinion.

This sandbox we are in, exists only for this purpose. To try everything we can using our tiny blind will. To experience all we wish. So that in the end you are left without any doubts that anything you do is never good enough, never perfect enough.

In my heart, I understand the teaching differently.  The point of releasing primacy of personal will and such things when we tire of a merely 1st-2nd-3rd chakra based existence is to encourage us to reach within our very Creatrix-composed beings to discover more beautiful means of expressing and enjoying the beauty of Creation.

But maybe that's off base?  Even if it is, it sounds pretty good to moi.

And by doing this you are actually releasing a little of your Earthly veiled 3d will do you not?

[Black Dragon]

For Patrick: It's not about getting rid of the will, or the intellect for that matter. It's linking these up to the heart, the higher self, and divine guidance that is on a level beyond them. You are simply giving them direction and their proper place in your overall 360 degree system of mind body spirit complex, vs devaluing and trying to separate from them.

Do you understand that the approach of suppressing, diminishing, or getting rid of: the will, intellect, ego, personality, emotions, etc. is one of (not so)cleverly disguised separation? Do you understand unity comes through integration and everything working in its proper context in relation to all else? I think deep down you do, but there's confusion with semantics you are using that imply separation. Using those terms has lead you to believe it a bit on a surface level(dare I say an intellectual level?...), but there's a cognitive dissonance because you really know better. Consider the idea with any faculties you wish to employ, and see what your higher self says.

Enlightenment and transcendence are not achieved by separating the higher from the lower, but by the adept knowing  that they are one and the same and actualizing this truth as much as possible within themselves.

[Doomchief]

In my understanding (oh, irony) the Significator of the Mind is limited just as the intellect itself in understanding of the Creation. Although the Spirit is not limited. So the understanding we may get is either limited or of a non-intellectual nature. And still as the perfection of the Creator has no boundaries the learning process is infinite.
It is a true mystery after all.

[Diana]

In the work of an aspiring Adept, by studying the Archetypes, the idea is to at least try and access intelligent infinity through the spirit portion of the M/B/S:

80.15 ▶ Questioner: Now, the obvious only significant difference, I believe, between the positive and negative adept in using this shuttle is the way they had polarized. Is there a relationship between the archetypes of the spirit and whether the polarization is either positive or negative? Is, for instance, the positive calling through the sixteenth and the [chuckling] negative calling through the fifteenth archetype? I am very confused on these points and I imagine that question is poor or meaningless. Can you answer that?

Ra: I am Ra. It is a challenge to answer such a query, for there is some confusion in its construction. However, we shall attempt to speak upon the subject.

The adept, whether positive or negative, has the same Matrix. The Potentiator is also identical. Due to the Catalyst of each adept the adept may begin to pick and choose that into which it shall look further. The Experience of the Spirit, that which you have called the Moon, is then, by far, the more manifest of influences upon the polarity of the adept. Even the most unhappy of experiences, shall we say, which seem to occur in the Catalyst of the adept, seen from the viewpoint of the spirit, may, with the discrimination possible in shadow, be worked with until light equaling the light of brightest noon descends upon the adept and positive or service-to-others illumination has occurred. The service-to-self adept will satisfy itself with the shadows and, grasping the light of day, will toss back the head in grim laughter, preferring the darkness.

80.8 ▶ 
...
Ra: I am Ra. The power of which you speak is a spiritual power. The powers of the mind, as such, do not encompass such works as these. You may, with some fruitfulness, consider the possibilities of moonlight. You are aware that we have described the Matrix of the Spirit as a night. The moonlight, then, offers either a true picture seen in shadow or chimera and falsity. The power of falsity is deep as is the power to discern truth from shadow. The shadow of hidden things is an infinite depth in which is stored the power of the One Infinite Creator.

So, though we may not have understanding in this density as a general idea, there is the possibility, according to Ra, to at least have a glimmer of the larger truths seen in shadow, or the light of the sun on the moon which is not the light itself but a reflection. It may not be "total" understanding, but I think it is a pragmatic understanding that allows for the use of intelligent energy even though we are veiled. And many of the Archetypes indicate a partial lifting of the veil, as one works with the blueprint of 3D here effectively processing catalyst, strengthening the lower survival chakras, and building both acceptance and wisdom.

[Sacred Fool]

Yes it's my tiny will.
I am asking the One to use me as his instrument. But we are all his instruments, so there is nothing special there.

I'm still confused, Patrick.  Are you saying that because you ask your One true representation of divinity to use you as its instrument, this confers upon you the authority to describe exactly who can say how much about what they know?  Furthermore, we all can do that?
Surely, I'm missing something here.  That just sounds like a monkey house.
Maybe you're correct about our limitations, but who really knows?
  
  

[Patrick]

Yes it's my tiny will.
I am asking the One to use me as his instrument. But we are all his instruments, so there is nothing special there.

 
I'm still confused, Patrick.  Are you saying that because you ask your One true representation of divinity to use you as its instrument, this confers upon you the authority to describe exactly who can say how much about what they know?...

No I am saying quite the opposite. No one can know. EXCEPT that in itself.

Based on Confederation teachings, it is the ONLY thing anyone can be sure of while veiled.

It is our only certainty and if we can accept that then peace becomes defacto in this world. Acceptance becomes automatic. All viewpoints becomes valid. Except absolute truthism, which is the province of the negative polarity and at the root of most disharmony.

[Sacred Fool]

 
Okay, I see what you're saying, Patrick...and, again, I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you (even though I basically feel the same way, but please don't tell anyone).  I guess I'm asking if you feel the circularity in your argumentation.  Aren't you taking a firmly absolutist stance to disallow any absolutism but your own?  Essentially, "My chosen first principle is valid and it invalidates all others." 

Does that sound fair to you, Confederation channeling or not?  I mean, aren't you kinda infringing on others' free will to propound this as gospel?
     

[Patrick]

Okay, I see what you're saying, Patrick...and, again, I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you (even though I basically feel the same way, but please don't tell anyone).  I guess I'm asking if you feel the circularity in your argumentation.  Aren't you taking a firmly absolutist stance to disallow any absolutism but your own?

If you'll allow me to reword the last bit of your question, I'll answer it in the following form.

Question: "Aren't you taking a firmly absolutist stance to disallow any absolutism?"

Yes indeed! There is no way to sidestep this seeming paradox. There need be only one exclusion in order to allow all opinions and point of views to coexist peacefully.

Essentially, "My chosen first principle is valid and it invalidates all others."   Does that sound fair to you, Confederation channeling or not?  I mean, aren't you kinda infringing on others' free will to propound this as gospel?

Maybe I would be infringing if Ra had not been so clear on that subject.

Also, please note that I am not telling people what to believe. They can certainly believe in absolute truthism. This belief, like any belief, is valid. I am only saying it is maybe the only belief truly incompatible with the mission of these forums. They can still start another forum somewhere else and create a dogma based cult with a following over there if they so wish.

But my friend, if you can show me how such a belief could peacefully interact on these forums without automatically creating disharmony, I'll be glad to review this core belief of mine? That would be quite big for me in fact.

[Ymarsakar]

" I am only saying it is maybe the only belief truly incompatible with the mission of these forums. They can still start another forum somewhere else and create a dogma based cult with a following over there if they so wish.

But my friend, if you can show me how such a belief could peacefully interact on these forums without automatically creating disharmony, I'll be glad to review this core belief of mine? That would be quite big for me in fact."

What does that even mean?

[sillypumpkins]

there is some irony here.......... I can smell it.... :p

[Patrick]

"I am only saying it is maybe the only belief truly incompatible with the mission of these forums. They can still start another forum somewhere else and create a dogma based cult with a following over there if they so wish."

What does that even mean?

I am not sure how else to say it. But I'll keep on trying.

According to Confederation teachings, everyone incarnated on this planet at this time are all bozos on the same bus.

There is only one core truth that we can all be certain applies to all others as well as ourselves.

That core truth is that it is impossible to know the truth of others.

Then it might be tempting to counter this with something like: "Well since you cannot know my truth, then you cannot know that my truth IS universal"

Indeed no one else could know that. And so even if someone had access to universal truth, it would be impossible to share it with others. It would always be distorted on its way to others.

--

Then the other aspect of this is that acting here while disbelieving this core truth will automatically cause friction and disharmony.

Because the Confederation is telling us that there is no dogma and so anyone trying to spread any form of dogma on bring4th will obviously clash.

--

And yes I am well aware of how ironic that sounds.

So if anyone can teach me how to say that there is no dogma, without making that in itself a dogma, please show me!  There has to be something in philosophy on the subject.

[Sacred Fool]

And yes I am well aware of how ironic that sounds.

So if anyone can teach me how to say that there is no dogma, without making that in itself a dogma, please show me!  There has to be something in philosophy on the subject.

 
 
Alas, poor Patrick.  His passion has driven him into a box canyon from which the only escape is to go backwards relative to how he got himself stuck in there.

As I view it, the principal fallacy you are grinding into dust is that Ra, Q'uo and all the rest are excruciating clear that they wish not to be anyone's authority figure and that their views are merely their opinions and not absolute truth.  Hence, it matters not how clear Ra was about this or that insofar as any other entity chooses to believe otherwise.  And yet you have elevated this particular principle into holy writ--against the Confederation's repeatedly expressed wishes--and are using it to effectively exclude others from these forums by advising them to go away and create their own groups.

I say to thee, O Patrick, son of Quebec, repent of your arrogance and allow others the leeway to make whatever mistakes they need to make in service to the one Creatrix.  Do not fall into the fallacious temptation to banish others in order to keep yourself clean, for other is you, as seen from the green ray level of reality.

Or, to put it more simply, like dude, maybe its time to lighten up a little bit, eh?

  

[Patrick]

And yes I am well aware of how ironic that sounds.

So if anyone can teach me how to say that there is no dogma, without making that in itself a dogma, please show me!  There has to be something in philosophy on the subject.

 
 
Alas, poor Patrick.  His passion has driven him into a box canyon from which the only escape is to go backwards relative to how he got himself stuck in there.

As I view it, the principal fallacy you are grinding into dust is that Ra, Q'uo and all the rest are excruciating clear that they wish not to be anyone's authority figure and that their views are merely their opinions and not absolute truth.  Hence, it matters not how clear Ra was about this or that insofar as any other entity chooses to believe otherwise.  And yet you have elevated this particular principle into holy writ--against the Confederation's repeatedly expressed wishes--and are using it to effectively exclude others from these forums by advising them to go away and create their own groups.

I say to thee, O Patrick, son of Quebec, repent of your arrogance and allow others the leeway to make whatever mistakes they need to make in service to the one Creatrix.  Do not fall into the fallacious temptation to banish others in order to keep yourself clean, for other is you, as seen from the green ray level of reality.

Or, to put it more simply, like dude, maybe its time to lighten up a little bit, eh?

  

Well, when you say it like that...

Is there no hope of bringing harmony to bring4th?

[LeafieGreens]

Fear is adding much distortion.

[Black Dragon]

And yes I am well aware of how ironic that sounds.

So if anyone can teach me how to say that there is no dogma, without making that in itself a dogma, please show me!  There has to be something in philosophy on the subject.

 
 
Alas, poor Patrick.  His passion has driven him into a box canyon from which the only escape is to go backwards relative to how he got himself stuck in there.

As I view it, the principal fallacy you are grinding into dust is that Ra, Q'uo and all the rest are excruciating clear that they wish not to be anyone's authority figure and that their views are merely their opinions and not absolute truth.  Hence, it matters not how clear Ra was about this or that insofar as any other entity chooses to believe otherwise.  And yet you have elevated this particular principle into holy writ--against the Confederation's repeatedly expressed wishes--and are using it to effectively exclude others from these forums by advising them to go away and create their own groups.

I say to thee, O Patrick, son of Quebec, repent of your arrogance and allow others the leeway to make whatever mistakes they need to make in service to the one Creatrix.  Do not fall into the fallacious temptation to banish others in order to keep yourself clean, for other is you, as seen from the green ray level of reality.

Or, to put it more simply, like dude, maybe its time to lighten up a little bit, eh?

  

Well, when you say it like that...

Is there no hope of bringing harmony to bring4th?

Of course there is, it's just sometimes in each of our lives where our time would be better spent doing inner work than offering our opinions. Maybe it's time to do more inner work, and keep your responses and interactions on the forum simple, and not respond to any threads or posts about controversial topics at the moment. Give yourself a rest from that. Sometimes a bit of "closed door cultivation" or hermitage can help.

[Patrick]

All good advice. My throat chakra is tingling a lot. Which might mean over activation. It would explain my outburst of outspokenness.

Hey it's to be expected that a bozo can make a clown of himself.

[Sacred Fool]

Well, when you say it like that...

Is there no hope of bringing harmony to bring4th?

Of course there is, it's just sometimes in each of our lives where our time would be better spent doing inner work than offering our opinions. Maybe it's time to do more inner work, and keep your responses and interactions on the forum simple, and not respond to any threads or posts about controversial topics at the moment. Give yourself a rest from that. Sometimes a bit of "closed door cultivation" or hermitage can help.

Yes, and at other times releasing passion out into the wild serves its own purpose.

No, there is no hope of "bringing" harmony (to parse words for a moment), methinks each independent voice must find its own harmonic tuning to bring to the whole.  (Nice try, though.)

To quote from the great literary master who put these words into the mouth of wee Puck: 

Shall we their fond pageants see?
Lord, what fools these mortals be!


May all go forth rejoicing in the beauty of the Bozos, the drivers & buses, the road, the air we breathe and the Creatrix with whom we dream it all up together!

  

[Black Dragon]

They're gonna be lookin' for light warriors...