What does "The Road to Hell is Paved with Good Intentions" mean?

[AnthroHeart]

Does this mean that by doing good works and intending love for humanity, you risk hell?

[Sacred Fool]

One could look at it terms of balancing love, power and wisdom. The more one commits to doing good, one may develope more power. As the power developes, one may lose perspective on the love and become more interested in using all this to one's own benefit, rather than dedicating these energies to the Creatrix.

So, as one accrues power, does one have to wisdom to ask, are my energies dedicated to love or to my separate self?

The higher stakes (power), the more one has the capacity to completely fail in the enterprise the way a tall building can topple over if lacking a sturdy foundation.

[AnthroHeart]

Can you stay on track by staying humble?
I always ask for the Universe to keep me humble.

I had reached a Universal level of awareness (we each have our own Universe),
and I could feel that the Universe was too hot, so I was able to cool it.
It may have been energetically, not sure if physical, or will filter down physically.

I always ask how I can be of Service to the Universe, and just want to be a crystal
the Universe can shine through. Love is the most important for me now,
but I have sought intensity before, which Ra says is a trait of 5th density.
And I balance them both, which is 6th density trait.

[Sacred Fool]

Can you stay on track by staying humble?
I always ask for the Universe to keep me humble.

  
Well, the problem is that it's hard to know when you're inching towards selfishness, that is, it's hard to catch yourself sometimes.  In my view, all we can do is try to be honest with ourselves, to try to cleanse and inspect ourselves for that which no longer serves us from time to time.
  

[zedro]

It means that sometimes people who think they are doing the right thing are too ignorant to fully understand the consequences of their actions, and lead everyone down a perilous path. In LOO terms, it's a severe imbalance of love over wisdom, where the wisdom is next to non-existent, at least in the long view.

Its my favorite saying, because I see it everywhere, especially in government and activist actions, or any relationships that involve a custodial power dynamic

[sillypumpkins]

Example:

Someone close to me is suffering. They express how much of a difficult time they are having on this planet.

One might think, “oh I know what will help, let’s remind them that they are the master of their own experience, that they have a choice in all of this! That will surely help, because I know this as the truth, and how can anyone deny this? It can only help!!”

Now imagine you say this to your suffering friend.

Your intentions might ‘appear’ to be good, yes! I mean you only want to help, right? How can that be anything but ‘good’?

You might find in doing this..... you’ve only pushed your friend away and further isolated your self from them, and them from you.

Your intentions were good, but were you really listening?

Of course this is a vague example. I’ve come to understand this quote by being that person (the one who is not listening). Someone close to me was hurting, and while I intended to do good by reminding them of these things, it only made that person feel invalidated and not heard.

I concur with SF and zed that this saying touches on the importance of balancing love power and wisdom.

[Dtris]

I think the clearest examples are actually comic book villains. Batman has a lot of villains so we will look at 4 of them and compare.

Joker- Chaotic psychopath. His only goal is to prove to the world that order is an illusion. He has an utter disregard for the lives and wellbeing of not only his followers, people who love him (Harley Quinn), and innocent bystanders, but also himself. Batman's archenemy and they can be seen as polar opposites. While Batman is the Dark Knight he is also the world's greatest detective and uses logic and reason to find perpetrators and the evidence needed to lock them up in Arkham prison. He refuses to kill, often to own detriment.

Mr. Freeze- This villain was a renowned scientist and researcher in medicine and cryogenics. His wife became inflicted with an incurable disease. He cryogenically froze her to allow himself time to cure her and revive her. His research and obsession has caused him to cause damage to others and even partially freeze himself so as to prolong his own life to be with his wife whenever she can be cured. He will do anything to cure his wife and make any minuscule progress in curing her. This includes hurting other intentionally or unintentionally. Batman is deeply sympathetic of his anguish and has tried to get Mr. Freeze to act more rationally many times to no avail.

Mr Zsasz- He is a serial killer who murders for his own enjoyment. Not much to say here other than he is a sadist who likes to mark his victims.

Poison Ivy- She is a botanist who believes plants are being destroyed by human activities. Her mission is to save the plants and she is an eco-terrorist. Despite this she has functioned both as an ally and enemy of Batman, while he understands her, he does not agree with her methods.

As you can see comics are full of villians who have good intentions. They desire something most people would consider as good or worthwhile but their means are what causes pain and suffering. This is a common feature of american comics at least thru the 90s.

[Sacred Fool]

In LOO terms, it's a severe imbalance of love over wisdom, where the wisdom is next to non-existent, at least in the long view.

 
I think it's interesting that in the examples people are giving, although some have good intention due to attachment of some sort, it seems to me that not so much green ray energy is happening at all.   (SP my be an exception.)  Rather, it's the scheming side of wisdom which is messing up the balance in service to the subjects' shadow sides.
  
Or am I wrong about that?

It seems to me, in general, that power-boosted wisdom is far more problematic than power-boosted love.  Statistically speaking, the latter seems rather rare, yes?

Maybe I'm just being naive?
  

[zedro]

Trying to determine what is and isn't green ray is like trying to ascertain what's happening inside a computer, I don't think it's important and besides the point really. Because ultimately we are just talking about 'good intentions' creating an undesirable outcome.

I think a concrete example would be Ra providing positive technology only to have it ultimately lead to destruction. (Unless the hidden intent was for the 'experiment' to fail for some kind of spiritual war/karmic long game.)

[Sacred Fool]

Trying to determine what is and isn't green ray is like trying to ascertain what's happening inside a computer, I don't think it's important and besides the point really. Because ultimately we are just talking about 'good intentions' creating an undesirable outcome.

I'm sure that's true for some.  For others, seeking to feel the balance of their own green ray energy is of exquisite importance.  It's how they serve and how they refine their service.
  

[zedro]

I'm sure that's true for some.  For others, seeking to feel the balance of their own green ray energy is of exquisite importance.  It's how they serve and how they refine their service.
  

That's not the same as trying to analyse someone else based on their intent/actions, that was my point. And acting in green ray still doesn't mean you aren't causing calamity behind you, because again that requires wisdom (significator/blue ray). An extreme example would be if a green ray activated person martyred themselves, not understanding the full consequences of their actions.

I'm just trying to stay on topic here.

[Sacred Fool]

  
I would suppose that the road to hell has many diverse feeder streets, and I'm not sure that any one of them is better or worse than another.  I was just suggesting that awareness of the degree of love in one's actions might help in guiding one's passage through such by-ways.  Keeping an eye on wisdom is a good thing as well, to be sure.
  

[zedro]

These are archtypes, they serve different functions. Love/experience, Wisdom/significator. Degrees of love does not define wisdom, it's a separate variable.

[Nau7ik]

No, quite the opposite. Consider this: the Nazis thought they were doing a service to mankind by mass murdering the Jewish people. Some of them honestly believed it was the “right thing to do.”

“The road to hell is paved with good intentions.” Mistaken, misguided intentions which end up causing great harm rather than good.

Skillful service is necessary. The Ra Material is a great place to learn the nuances of service to others. We do not call ourselves to action, for example. “I think I know better so I am going to force others to do as I do, to believe as I do.” One might have good intentions, but they are infringing on the free will others and thereby limiting the effectiveness of true service to others.

I can think of an example going on in our world today: forcing people to wear masks and to be “locked down” like they are prisoners.

There’s a wonderful and insightful quote from Saint Anthony The Great, “A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him, saying, 'You are mad; you are not like us.”

[Ymarsakar]

You are not wrong and not naive.

This is humans using their egonminds to fix thebworld or solve a problem.

The heart does not see things in this way. It is not divine wisdom but it is also not human iq or intellect logic.

For humans, most things in life look like they have solutions. So you are taught to fix things. Using your mind.

The heart chakra requires a human to give up fixing the world and thinking. This is extra difficult.

To help a person cultivate this path, i direct them to remove things to do. Focus only on what feels strongest.

This is in fact the opposite for the 5th chakra but people have to forget about the things they cannot experience to focus on what they can.

In LOO terms, it's a severe imbalance of love over wisdom, where the wisdom is next to non-existent, at least in the long view.

 
I think it's interesting that in the examples people are giving, although some have good intention due to attachment of some sort, it seems to me that not so much green ray energy is happening at all.   (SP my be an exception.)  Rather, it's the scheming side of wisdom which is messing up the balance in service to the subjects' shadow sides.
  
Or am I wrong about that?

It seems to me, in general, that power-boosted wisdom is far more problematic than power-boosted love.  Statistically speaking, the latter seems rather rare, yes?

Maybe I'm just being naive?
  

[Diana]

My understanding is it just means that intentions aren't good enough, there must also be action (commitment, follow-through). I don't think it means anything beyond that, unless one wants to assign meaning. "Hell" is a Christian myth that as far as I know has no basis in reality, and is meant metaphorically.

[Patrick]

My understanding is it just means that intentions aren't good enough, there must also be action (commitment, follow-through)...

That is precisely my understanding as well. I don't think it needs to be any more complicated than that.

[rva_jeremy]

The way I interpret "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" is that it seems to refer to actions one takes that are intended positively but, because of the confusing nature of third density, end up leading one further and further from an end result that reflects service to others. What leads one on the "road to hell" isn't merely meaning well, but instead continuing to act in a way that does not reflect on the effectiveness or appropriate of the actions. Therefore, one keeps chasing more and more intervention to achieve an outcome one originally intended as positive, but the more one tries to manipulate the situation, the further the outcome slips from the ideal originally intended.

It is a fantastic distillation of the Confederation's concept of service -- that service must be desired by the recipient to be a positive service, and that our intentions and desire are often not well understood by us. We often become more attached to a specific means of serving an other self than to whether or not the service is actually serving the other's desires, perhaps because our chosen means is convenient or promotes our desire at some level. We sometimes lack an appropriate, humble curiosity about how the other is actually doing and what help is actually possible or desired by them. When our means of service fail, as they often will, instead of having compassion for our own confusion and clumsiness, asking forgiveness for any injury to the other, and reflecting anew on the appropriateness of our service, we scramble to "do" something to fix it, to flush or repress our tension and anxiety around the tentative nature of all service, and that, I believe, leads us down the road.

The Confederation is adamant that unrequested service is not positive service; part of the discipline of personality involves refraining from acting out of our personal anxiety or ambition to accomplish things. We must remember our true service is that of essence, of our being, and service of action flows primarily from our connection with that being, not from our intellectual analysis of the outward situation or the emotional imperatives of our personal desire. In other words, to sum all this up, the road to hell is paved with good intentions because we are impatient with, and dishonest about, our true intentions, which are often not merely to serve another but to serve ourselves in some subtle way that we may not recognize. That is why reflecting in meditation on unexpected outcomes from our service is so crucial -- by learning more about ourselves, we become more able to help when needed and refrain when not needed.

I highly recommend this Hatonn/Latwii session as a partial study of this dynamic.

[Minyatur]

My understanding is it just means that intentions aren't good enough, there must also be action (commitment, follow-through). I don't think it means anything beyond that, unless one wants to assign meaning. "Hell" is a Christian myth that as far as I know has no basis in reality, and is meant metaphorically.

I actually see it as the opposite. Since we relate the negative path to control, then actions can start from good intentions but fall prey to negative attempts to control others.

You can think of the story of the two positive wanderers in Ra's home world, who wanting to become of service to a certain set of people who were wisdom oriented, ended up creating holy wars and harvesting negatively. The basic intention seemed positive, but it lead to a negative harvest.

[flofrog]

The Confederation is adamant that unrequested service is not positive service; part of the discipline of personality involves refraining from acting out of our personal anxiety or ambition to accomplish things. We must remember our true service is that of essence, of our being, and service of action flows primarily from our connection with that being, not from our intellectual analysis of the outward situation or the emotional imperatives of our personal desire. In other words, to sum all this up, the road to hell is paved with good intentions because we are impatient with, and dishonest about, our true intentions, which are often not merely to serve another but to serve ourselves in some subtle way that we may not recognize. That is why reflecting in meditation on unexpected outcomes from our service is so crucial -- by learning more about ourselves, we become more able to help when needed and refrain when not needed.

I highly recommend this Hatonn/Latwii session as a partial study of this dynamic.

So wise, jeremy, thank you

[Patrick]

It's really fascinating to see the different points of view on this. I never even thought this saying could be interpreted any other way.

My parents always used that saying in order to say that you can't just say you're going to do good, you also have to do it. So "intentions aren't good enough, there must also be action".

So obviously it's going to continue meaning that to me, but now I might just stop using that saying at all seeing how it could be interpreted to mean other than what I want to convey when using it.

I guess I am starting to understand why Ra used the English language in the way they did...

[flofrog]

lol Patrick. Please don't stop.

In the end the original intention in one's action is still what counts. The repercussions of that action and reactions to it in the end is not in one's control.

That's why what Ra's point from jeremy is so important, help given when asked for.

[Diana]

@ rva_jeremy and Minyatur:

Excellent points you have made about this phrase within the context of the LOO.

I was thinking of the mundane meaning, for which it makes sense the "saying" was likely created (by mundane humanity). However, I like the explorations of the phrase here that relate to the LOO. And who knows, maybe some of these sayings did have deeper and less literal meanings that were not apparent in human societies.

[meadow-foreigner]

My understanding is it just means that intentions aren't good enough, there must also be action (commitment, follow-through). I don't think it means anything beyond that, unless one wants to assign meaning. "Hell" is a Christian myth that as far as I know has no basis in reality, and is meant metaphorically.

It means that one can choose from many paths to get to an endpoint, though they are not the same. Some paths may be so terrible compared to others that, in spite of having good intentions, one may literally mess up if one chooses the high road as much as one may literally mess up if one chooses the low road. It all depends on the ability of one's choosing with the tools one may have in different circumstances and situations.

[zedro]

My parents always used that saying in order to say that you can't just say you're going to do good, you also have to do it. So "intentions aren't good enough, there must also be action".

Its the actions that actually pave the road to hell. The missing ingredient is understanding what your actions are leading to, so in other words, understanding the results/consequences.

So they should have said, you just can't say your going to do good, but you have to know that it actually is. Then do it.

This reminds me of the giving homeless drugs thread. Your intent on positive action may signify your polarity, but the actual consequences of acting on those intents is what produces karma.

[Patrick]

My parents always used that saying in order to say that you can't just say you're going to do good, you also have to do it. So "intentions aren't good enough, there must also be action".

Its the actions that actually pave the road to hell. The missing ingredient is understanding what your actions are leading to, so in other words, understanding the results/consequences.

So they should have said, you just can't say your going to do good, but you have to know that it actually is. Then do it.

This reminds me of the giving homeless drugs thread. Your intent on positive action may signify your polarity, but the actual consequences of acting on those intents is what produces karma.

I see what you mean. I think the reason it does not fly with me is that I believe we cannot know the real consequences of our actions (the whole point of veiled 3d). The only thing in our power is our intent. And so that saying, to me, means that once you have set your intent, you also have to follow through with the actions that this intent will inspire in you.

Really, what more can one do?

[Ymarsakar]

Listen to your higher self. It does what you do not know

[zedro]

I see what you mean. I think the reason it does not fly with me is that I believe we cannot know the real consequences of our actions (the whole point of veiled 3d). The only thing in our power is our intent. And so that saying, to me, means that once you have set your intent, you also have to follow through with the actions that this intent will inspire in you.

Really, what more can one do?

This is why the expression is so pervasive. Although I disagree that we can't necessarily know in the context of what the goals are, because frequently mistakes are allowed to persevere due to ego, especially with institutions that covet authority or profit.

On the metaphysical level tho, I would agree we can't truly know until we achieve the hindsight in the higher self. But then the context is merely experience, and not mistakes.

[AnthroHeart]

The Confederation is adamant that unrequested service is not positive service

I highly recommend this Hatonn/Latwii session as a partial study of this dynamic.

If I have an intuitive nudge to help a spiritual being, who hasn't flat out told me they need help, because they aren't physical,
how do I know if my help to them is a positive service?

Or if I'm just imposing myself on them? I ask and they give me an intuitive yes they desire my help.

But I initiated it seems, and it wasn't requested beforehand from them, unless they gave me that intuitive nudge.

[AnthroHeart]

My parents always used that saying in order to say that you can't just say you're going to do good, you also have to do it. So "intentions aren't good enough, there must also be action".

Its the actions that actually pave the road to hell. The missing ingredient is understanding what your actions are leading to, so in other words, understanding the results/consequences.

So they should have said, you just can't say your going to do good, but you have to know that it actually is. Then do it.

This reminds me of the giving homeless drugs thread. Your intent on positive action may signify your polarity, but the actual consequences of acting on those intents is what produces karma.

As far as I'm aware, it's the intent that causes the karma. Could be wrong though.