[split] Workplace Dynamics

[Patrick]

...Being a female as a freelancer, especially when I was in advertising, was an education in dealing with this inequality, and worse, the constant sexualizing—the majority of art directors or owners I had to interface with were male and it never failed that I would be hit on...

I know, completely off topic !  But we're already in the meta forum so...

As a man I can't fully sympathies, but it seems from all the newer policies at work that this is starting to get better.  I hope so at least?  Because our ethics department is so much wishing to make sure they cover all the bases that I no longer feel safe speaking to women at work.  I find myself refraining from contacting them and when required I use emails with my boss in CC.  That being said, it must be refreshing for women in this work environment, having minimal interactions with men and having the certainty that when interactions occur, it will be succinct and 110% only related to work.  No small talk or anything.  The little bit of issue I have with this is that I get along with women much better than with other men.  All my real friends are women, so it's not easy accepting this wedge at work, but that is how our society works it seems.  Instead of teaching men to respect all, including women, we have to legislate so that women can finally have some peace of mind from their interactions with men.

[Diana]

...Being a female as a freelancer, especially when I was in advertising, was an education in dealing with this inequality, and worse, the constant sexualizing—the majority of art directors or owners I had to interface with were male and it never failed that I would be hit on...

I know, completely off topic !  But we're already in the meta forum so...

As a man I can't fully sympathies, but it seems from all the newer policies at work that this is starting to get better.  I hope so at least?  Because our ethics department is so much wishing to make sure they cover all the bases that I no longer feel safe speaking to women at work.  I find myself refraining from contacting them and when required I use emails with my boss in CC.  That being said, it must be refreshing for women in this work environment, having minimal interactions with men and having the certainty that when interactions occur, it will be succinct and 110% only related to work.  No small talk or anything.  The little bit of issue I have with this is that I get along with women much better than with other men.  All my real friends are women, so it's not easy accepting this wedge at work, but that is how our society works it seems.  Instead of teaching men to respect all, including women, we have to legislate so that women can finally have some peace of mind from their interactions with men.

I don't know how to move a thread, so I will respond here. There have been other threads that address the gender conflicts in our society, and it can be a triggering subject for obvious reasons. I don't think these conflicts are in any way simple. And, to promote androgyny makes no sense with 3D or even double-activated 3D bodies, since procreation depends on physical/sexual exchange, and this necessitates hormonal differences. So "equality" must mean something more than we are exactly the same.

Today, this subject is a morass of confusion. I haven't had a job in a workplace for decades, as I started working full-time for myself very young. So I can't speak knowledgeably to that environment. I will say that whatever changes to be made in creating a more compassionate interplay between men, women, (and trans, non-gender, etc.), must include everyone involved. I don't think women blaming men, or men blaming women will get us anywhere. Each individual needs to be accountable and responsible.

It's sad that you feel prohibited from being friendly to the women in your workplace. It reminds me of a time, maybe in the late 80s or early 90s, when child porn was in the news and people were saying that they couldn't even take photos of their babies naked without inciting paranoia. But the reality is that child porn is real; that children and even babies are sometimes sexually abused; and that these offenses are hidden in dysfunctional families. So, in the way societies evolve here, this hidden crime had to surface, and the pendulum often swings too far the other way, but eventually settles into a better, more enlightened, position (or so I would ideally hope).

I really have no doubt that you can navigate these troubled waters. I don't think it is or will be easy. The balance I am guessing would be to not repress who you are but respect the "rules" and be polite and respectful. I am sure I am not telling you anything you don't know. But I will add that I personally would not allow someone to accuse me something I did not do, and I would address that if necessary.

I have another conceptual opinion regarding the workplace which will not be popular but here goes. I will preface by saying that I have worked on site at a client's (an ad agency) for a couple of days at the request of the Creative Director, and I could hardly get anything done, and what I did accomplish was not my best work because of all the distraction due to socializing. When I work in my studio, alone, I am very productive. I realize this is less attainable in a corporate environment where there are so many people. But if I had a business with employees in an office, I would want those employees to actually work and not socialize until the proper time. And, I would probably make them leave their phones at the front desk (I don't think I need to say why). This is not to say I think you, Patrick, abuse the time you are working, because you strike me as a responsible guy. I speak generally, and part of the gender problem at the workplace (certainly not the whole problem, as, we haven't yet addressed the inequality in compensation that still exists, or men getting the promotions, or the credit or other things that apparently still go on because of gender bias) may be all the time spent socializing, when everyone might instead be focused on (and hopefully committed to) the work.

My advice to women: learn self-defense; stand up for yourself; don't blame the men; and be the best you can be.

[Aion]

I don't think I could work somewhere that was that cold, not my cup-o-tea.

[Minyatur]

This is not to say I think you, Patrick, abuse the time you are working, because you strike me as a responsible guy.

How I picture Patrick reading that on his paid hours:


Technically speaking though, management techniques evolved from attempting to get maximal productivity out of employees toward creating a 'more than not' stress free environment in which employees feel they belong to. That's how you're more likely to develop experts you can keep on the long term as a company and avoid burnouts. Surely working for yourself is another game entirely and not everyone is cut for that. Office jobs are considered more lenient in general.

The pandemic seems to force companies to review their policies regarding working from home, so people who want an environment in which they can be more immersed without socialization will more easily get that.

@Patrick: I really don't think your workplace's ethic policy is normal.

[Patrick]

 
Since the covid, we've got meetings from 22h30 to 23h30 or 6h00 to 8h30.  And my boss always telling me, recoup that time !  So I'm not worried.

Other places that are exaggerating like that since starting to work from home ?

[Diana]

I don't think I could work somewhere that was that cold, not my cup-o-tea.

I don't mean that it should be cold. Consider SpaceX. A lot of dedicated people passionate about their work. I just don't picture that team hanging around socializing or texting friends instead of developing their products. Not cold; focused. You can still be friendly but be focused on the work.

It's true that working for one's self is different. But interestingly, with COVID, many people are working from home. I see this a great thing. But it does take discipline.

---

Thank you to whoever moved this thread.

[Patrick]

OMG.  We have MODs life signs !

[Patrick]

 
I was the only person asking questions when we were presented this policy.  I asked how a person would be able to let someone else know that there is an interest.  At first it was "You can't" then at the end it morphed into "You can touch the subject only ONCE".  So that's not too bad, if you like someone you can hint at it one time (better be quite clear).  If there is not a clearly positive answer, you then never mention it again.  Which means that a person could be hit on exactly once per colleague.  Of course the danger is in what is considered Ok by a person.  I could say Hello and she could complain to her superior that she did not like the way I said it.  That is where it gets touchy.

Everyone thought I had a crush on someone at work.   But I just wanted someone to highlight how overkill their policy was.  I got married a couple months after that (not with a colleague  ).

Anyway, we are losing people now, this policy is just the icing.  People complain that you basically have to break the rules just to get work done.  Anyway2, I ignore the great majority of work policies, except that one about colleagues, this one could get me in serious trouble real quick.  Anyway3, have a nice weekend !

[Aion]

I don't think I could work somewhere that was that cold, not my cup-o-tea.

I don't mean that it should be cold. Consider SpaceX. A lot of dedicated people passionate about their work. I just don't picture that team hanging around socializing or texting friends instead of developing their products. Not cold; focused. You can still be friendly but be focused on the work.

It's true that working for one's self is different. But interestingly, with COVID, many people are working from home. I see this a great thing. But it does take discipline.

---

Thank you to whoever moved this thread.

I work in a social field and before that worked in a kitchen, working while you socialize was the norm. That being said, things that take more brainpower take more focus and typically if I'm working on something mentally vigorous I like to work in solitude.

[Diana]

I work in a social field and before that worked in a kitchen, working while you socialize was the norm. That being said, things that take more brainpower take more focus and typically if I'm working on something mentally vigorous I like to work in solitude.

Yes, that makes sense. Certainly I wasn't talking about work in a restaurant but more like work in a corporate environment. But what would be an example of a social field?

I will add though, that I don't think I'm that far off base about the way employees can waste time (a hilarious exaggeration is the movie "Office Space"), and that is not something I am saying about anyone here, just a general observation. I know and have known a lot of business owners who deal with that. I think one of the ways that could change is for companies to be EECs.

[Diana]

 
I was the only person asking questions when we were presented this policy.  I asked how a person would be able to let someone else know that there is an interest.  At first it was "You can't" then at the end it morphed into "You can touch the subject only ONCE".  So that's not too bad, if you like someone you can hint at it one time (better be quite clear).  If there is not a clearly positive answer, you then never mention it again.  Which means that a person could be hit on exactly once per colleague.  Of course the danger is in what is considered Ok by a person.  I could say Hello and she could complain to her superior that she did not like the way I said it.  That is where it gets touchy.

Yeah, the idea that you can touch someone only once seems silly. It could be that managers just don't know how to deal with a group of people without broad, blunt strokes.

But to be honest, what I am not getting is why you (not you Patrick, but an employee) would "court" someone while working anyway. But I guess something would have to be said there if there was no social interaction outside of work. But it could be done with a polite question at the end of the day or on break (Would you like to get coffee together sometime and talk?) rather than any touching the other person. What I am saying I know sounds so didactic and sterile. Yikes, what a messy thing to have to "police." I am grateful for the millionth time that I don't have to work in a corporate environment.

One thing I would like to add. In the early efforts of the civil rights movement, there was something called "tokenism" which was the snarky word for government control of who gets hired in a business—a certain percentage of hires had to be African American. This was forcing the issue, which rubbed a lot of people the wrong way for varying reasons. But the truth is, in human society at this time, or at least at that time, forcing integration was the logical and maybe the only step forward to change the societal paradigm and unequal treatment of a minority. Other examples are protected species and environments, animal welfare, the CPA. All of these are seen as invasive to some (I know a single mother who was reported to the CPA by her ex's new girlfriend out of jealousy; there was an investigation and she was cleared, but absurdly, this report is now on her record for life). But with the state of humanity as it is, it seems there must be some way to protect and serve the public which consists of people—civil servants and the public—who are mostly still clinging to their towers (Potentiator of the Spirit).

My point is that maybe these silly rules are blunt steps toward change. And after so many centuries of subjugation (women being chattel for example), there is racial memory involved as well. We all want freedom and free will and organic interactions. Eventually society will evolve but it seems we are in a very messy time. For any wanderers, I think this may be nearing the apex of the bell curve. Or, I hope so. I hope it doesn't get much worse.

It is no wonder that the transition from 3rd to 4th density takes so long.

[Louisabell]

Yes, while office romances are lovely - I knew a couple who met at work and they got married and had an office baby! Most of the time, the approach gets rejected and then it's awkward town for the rest of the working relationship... I've seen much more of those...

Also, lol at picturing Patrick ask that question in a meeting infront of his colleagues and all the inevitable cooing afterwards

[Patrick]

But to be honest, what I am not getting is why you (not you Patrick, but an employee) would "court" someone while working anyway.

Some people just can't help themselves it would seem.  It's not my style.  I would prefer not to have a relationship with someone at work.  I would not deny destiny, but I would not reach for that.

...it could be done with a polite question at the end of the day or on break (Would you like to get coffee together sometime and talk?)...

That is exactly the sort of thing I would do.  It's respectful and you know right away if there's interest.  So now we can ask such a question once and never again.

...rather than any touching the other person...

I never meant to imply physical touch of any kind.  This would simply never fly here in Canada, work policy or not.  It's just not done until you're already intimate.

[Patrick]

...
Also, lol at picturing Patrick ask that question in a meeting infront of his colleagues and all the inevitable cooing afterwards

Yeah and it was a meeting with the whole multinational departments all over the world held remotely !  But they already know I'm a weird one.  Can't have been too much a surprise.  

But I could not just let that go.  I'm a person of principles.  From what we were being told, you could never ever let someone else know in anyway of your interest.  That's a bit extreme.

Also, if you do start a relationship with a coworker, you have to declare it on paper.  Especially if there is a difference in rank.

Anyway, all that is moot now, we all work 100% of the time from home.  I'm not even sure there will be office work even after the covid.

[Minyatur]

Anyway, all that is moot now, we all work 100% of the time from home.  I'm not even sure there will be office work even after the covid.

You're happy with that?

Before the pandemic I had no interest in working from home and never did, but I am also tired of living in a big city. My workplace policy about working from home became more flexible and I could ask to do it full time (if it is agreed upon), which could allow me to move away without switching job or losing too much time with transport. So I'm considering that for next year.

[Patrick]

Anyway, all that is moot now, we all work 100% of the time from home.  I'm not even sure there will be office work even after the covid.

You're happy with that?

Before the pandemic I had no interest in working from home and never did, but I am also tired of living in a big city. My workplace policy about working from home became more flexible and I could ask to do it full time (if it is agreed upon), which could allow me to move away without switching job or losing too much time with transport. So I'm considering that for next year.

I got used to it.  I'm missing the social interactions, we can't see each others because of the covid, but if we could have 5 to 7 from time to time that would solve the social aspect.  Plus we could interact naturally with coworkers of any sex this way.

[Aion]

I work in a social field and before that worked in a kitchen, working while you socialize was the norm. That being said, things that take more brainpower take more focus and typically if I'm working on something mentally vigorous I like to work in solitude.

Yes, that makes sense. Certainly I wasn't talking about work in a restaurant but more like work in a corporate environment. But what would be an example of a social field?

I will add though, that I don't think I'm that far off base about the way employees can waste time (a hilarious exaggeration is the movie "Office Space"), and that is not something I am saying about anyone here, just a general observation. I know and have known a lot of business owners who deal with that. I think one of the ways that could change is for companies to be EECs.

Aha I have a very unique career as an axe-throwing coach and management of operations of the club, so as a coach there is a lot of interaction with people. Being sociable is a real boon in the job, especially in the tipping culture we have here. However, what I love about my job is seeing people leaving smiling, stress relieved, often with new found confidence. Learning to throw an axe and sticking a bullseye for the first time is exhilarating and while it may seem like an unimportant pass-time I would say with the community we are building and the positive experience so many people have we are doing some small part to uplift people in these troubling and tumultuous times.

The covid rules we follow are stringent and there is non-stop sanitization of everything, always, but it's a small effort ultimately.

As for employees wasting time, absolutely they can and will, and corporations have a great idea called "time theft" to penalize people for it. I think it's disgusting and the reduction of people to digits and productivity, but that's neither here for there, lol. Personally I think more of that is rooted in people having to do jobs they actually have zero interest in doing. That being said, having been a hard worker in the kitchen with some lousy coworkers at times, I know all too well the rage of disproportionate work.

[Diana]

Aha I have a very unique career as an axe-throwing coach and management of operations of the club, so as a coach there is a lot of interaction with people. Being sociable is a real boon in the job, especially in the tipping culture we have here. However, what I love about my job is seeing people leaving smiling, stress relieved, often with new found confidence. Learning to throw an axe and sticking a bullseye for the first time is exhilarating and while it may seem like an unimportant pass-time I would say with the community we are building and the positive experience so many people have we are doing some small part to uplift people in these troubling and tumultuous times.

That is certainly unique. And the idea of being sociable and socializing makes perfect sense in this instance. What a cool job.

As for employees wasting time, absolutely they can and will, and corporations have a great idea called "time theft" to penalize people for it. I think it's disgusting and the reduction of people to digits and productivity, but that's neither here for there, lol.

From the other side of that perspective is the employer, who ultimately must look at numbers so the business stays open. I don't think it is as simple as the employers are the bad guys and the employees are the victims. There is an underlying societal condition that fertilizes this ground and it seems to be continuing to grow exponentially into the digital world.

It hopefully will turn around. But I do think the general consciousness of humanity must evolve a little more. As long as we are pointing the finger and placing blame, instead of seeking solutions, the situation may perpetuate.

Personally I think more of that is rooted in people having to do jobs they actually have zero interest in doing. That being said, having been a hard worker in the kitchen with some lousy coworkers at times, I know all too well the rage of disproportionate work.

I agree that people, maybe even most people, have jobs they have no interest in. This is fallout from our messed-up society in general. I think it may be some time before that untangles into a situation where everyone's basic needs are covered, and they don't have to do things such as spending most of their waking hours at a job they dislike. When this occurs, I think creativity will eventually flourish after everyone has a chance to get used to not being oppressed with just trying to survive.