Why the hate for wisdom?

[Jade]

In the Law of One there is no victim

If this is true, then why does Ra, a mid 6th density entity, come to this planet to serve?

14.18 ▶ Questioner: Then for the last 2,300 years you have been actively working to create as large a harvest as possible at the end of the total 75,000-year cycle. Can you state with respect to the Law of One why you do this, just as a statement of your reasons for this?

Ra: I am Ra. I speak for the social memory complex termed Ra. We came among you to aid you. Our efforts in service were perverted. Our desire then is to eliminate as far as possible the distortions caused by those misreading our information and guidance. The general cause of service such as the Confederation offers is that of the primal distortion of the Law of One, which is service. The One Being of the creation is like unto a body, if you will accept this third-density analogy. Would we ignore a pain in the leg? A bruise upon the skin? A cut which is festering? No. There is no ignoring a call. We, the entities of sorrow, choose as our service the attempt to heal the sorrow which we are calling analogous to the pains of a physical body complex distortion.

Here's the deal, friends. THERE IS SUFFERING IN THIRD DENSITY!!!!! And when we dismiss the suffering of others as being "victims" and those who speak about their suffering as "SJWs" we are repressing the suffering that our WHOLE PLANET feels. If you broke your leg, would you scoff at it and call it a victim? Why is there a chronic problem with seeing psychological wounding as real pain?

This is why I fight against the 'wisdom over love' narrative. It's missing a HUGE step - EMPATHY. Empathy is one of the main tenets of the service to others path. If you're wisdoming yourself out of having empathy, you are doing yourself a disservice if you are trying to polarize.

"The illusion of separation/suffering" is VERY REAL to most people who don't have a perfectly crystallized indigo ray. Handwaving it with philosophy and high minded new ageism is not going to make it go away. Just because you refuse to feel pain, doesn't mean that that is everyone else's path. People have been emotionally and psychologically wounded. I know nobody wants to feel empathy for those who are suffering, it sucks to have some understanding of what it feels like to be, say, a trans person, so it's such more more palatable to invoke "wisdom". But in my most meta interpretation of the Law of One, it is my understanding that empathy is the way. The more we truly unite with the rest of Creation, the more we feel its suffering  (and joy!). This is what it means to be the Brothers and Sisters of Sorrow - Ra and other confederation entities see our suffering the same as theirs. If you are claiming that Ra is sitting on the other side laughing at our suffering, well, I don't think this is true. Having a sense of humor in the spiritual way does not involve schadenfreude, come on guys. It's important to have a sense of humor about our own suffering, but making dark jokes about the suffering of others is not empathy, it's not compassion, and it's not representative of some high minded spiritual ideal.

[Infinite]

I believe the most suitable behavior of someone who desire seek STO is love everyone, even those hard to understand. In this viewpoint, the correct behavior about politics beliefs is just accept everything. But, from the moment these beliefs can cause negativity, slavery, poverty and many other kind of STS actions, the STO beings can't accept all that comes from these people. For example, if Gandhi had done nothing, perhaps the India still would not be independent today. That's use the love together the wisdom. Choose those actions which will maintain the entity in conditions of service or the actions that will help many people as possible.

Another thing. Why the free speech would be more important TO A STO ENTITY than the defense of the policies more close of STO patterns?

[Minyatur]

In the Law of One there is no victim

If this is true, then why does Ra, a mid 6th density entity, come to this planet to serve?

14.18 ▶ Questioner: Then for the last 2,300 years you have been actively working to create as large a harvest as possible at the end of the total 75,000-year cycle. Can you state with respect to the Law of One why you do this, just as a statement of your reasons for this?

Ra: I am Ra. I speak for the social memory complex termed Ra. We came among you to aid you. Our efforts in service were perverted. Our desire then is to eliminate as far as possible the distortions caused by those misreading our information and guidance. The general cause of service such as the Confederation offers is that of the primal distortion of the Law of One, which is service. The One Being of the creation is like unto a body, if you will accept this third-density analogy. Would we ignore a pain in the leg? A bruise upon the skin? A cut which is festering? No. There is no ignoring a call. We, the entities of sorrow, choose as our service the attempt to heal the sorrow which we are calling analogous to the pains of a physical body complex distortion.

Here's the deal, friends. THERE IS SUFFERING IN THIRD DENSITY!!!!! And when we dismiss the suffering of others as being "victims" and those who speak about their suffering as "SJWs" we are repressing the suffering that our WHOLE PLANET feels. If you broke your leg, would you scoff at it and call it a victim? Why is there a chronic problem with seeing psychological wounding as real pain?

This is why I fight against the 'wisdom over love' narrative. It's missing a HUGE step - EMPATHY. Empathy is one of the main tenets of the service to others path. If you're wisdoming yourself out of having empathy, you are doing yourself a disservice if you are trying to polarize.

"The illusion of separation/suffering" is VERY REAL to most people who don't have a perfectly crystallized indigo ray. Handwaving it with philosophy and high minded new ageism is not going to make it go away. Just because you refuse to feel pain, doesn't mean that that is everyone else's path. People have been emotionally and psychologically wounded. I know nobody wants to feel empathy for those who are suffering, it sucks to have some understanding of what it feels like to be, say, a trans person, so it's such more more palatable to invoke "wisdom". But in my most meta interpretation of the Law of One, it is my understanding that empathy is the way. The more we truly unite with the rest of Creation, the more we feel its suffering  (and joy!). This is what it means to be the Brothers and Sisters of Sorrow - Ra and other confederation entities see our suffering the same as theirs. If you are claiming that Ra is sitting on the other side laughing at our suffering, well, I don't think this is true. Having a sense of humor in the spiritual way does not involve schadenfreude, come on guys. It's important to have a sense of humor about our own suffering, but making dark jokes about the suffering of others is not empathy, it's not compassion, and it's not representative of some high minded spiritual ideal.

Funny how when I write something to you I'm in the wrong because I don't acknowledge we disagree and that is sucking the life out of your anger, but then you can just come back at me if it suits you. Your degree of even understanding anything I said is far off.

I think you ignored the part where it says they want to  "eliminate as far as possible the distortions caused by those misreading our information and guidance". I don't think the label "entities of sorrow" is a direct association with the Law of One, as they are still learning Unity and have their own distortions that keeps them from it. Sorrow is one of many things, focusing only there in a manner it becomes your identity is in itself distorted.

Also I think, like perhaps too often, you distort the essence of what service is and what it means to answer a call. In your example of me having a broken leg, let's say that I was hit by a car and you self-righteously shout at the driver that it did wrong and did not watch where he was going, all the while you're not tending at my broken leg which is the actual call. Acting like a victim with a broken leg is that you rather blame someone than breath the pain out and tend to it. That you can stub your toe and it hurts is part of life and while you can't separate yourself from pain the victim mentality is to find it unfair and start hitting walls hurting your hand also. What I was saying also is that if the driver was not empathic toward the accident, shouting at him will reinforce that he was uncaring due to the very nature of the energy that shouts.

While you say I deny empathy, everything I've been speaking out against is a lack of empathy. I'm saying you/others/everyone pick sides on what you are empathic about and then act out on a lack of it and that is what is labelled self-righteous, saying you act in love from a place that lacks it. I don't really partake in dark humor and what Anagogy had said that I defended is that "sometimes it is a way of accepting things". It can be just a step and clinging to be outraged and hurt is not empathy but lacking the ability to wish yourself/others well. A lot about Earth is confusion and so a lot is ridiculous and I could bet when you move to the other side you will laugh about a lot regarding your incarnation. Since you like empathy so much, let me tell you that unless you want to start to understand why each person acts as it does in every circumstances in a manner that it is rightful, you won't ever be all that much empathic to something other than what you recognize yourself into. The heart is the place of empathy and the heart does not deny nor condemn, it is where you lack empathy that does such things.

I know you already know I think this way, but I find that you hunt down every bias in the material that stretches away from the core message of the Law of One. Being able to tell someone that "all is well" is not a lack of empathy, but leading them toward a place of well being instead of holding them away from it.

[Jade]

I'm not only addressing you, I'm replying to general energies in the thread which I disagree with, which your post was supporting, and the most recent.

It's cool we have a different interpretation. I find it interesting that you seem to think you have a better vantage point of what unity means than Ra does. This is probably part of why we disagree.

We're all free to distort the material however we please. I think empathy is a primary component of polarizing in third density via Ra's transmission of the Law of One. It is my estimation that most of these posts that are "anti-SJW" lack empathy because they do not understand that what makes someone an "SJW" is empathy. You're so worried about the person who carelessly hit someone that it's easy to forget about the person who is suffering, the person with the broken leg. They have every right to be angry. The first step to healing that anger is understanding that anger. When we tell people that they need to stop being victims, what it feels like is that we don't understand their anger, or that they don't have the right to be angry. Insisting to someone that "all is well" when they literally cannot walk because the physical mechanism that they use to walk is broken, it seems to me to be missing the point.

Ra very clearly discourages people to "rise above" their catalyst with a cold detachment. This is what I feel people perpetuate.

18.5 ▶ Questioner: Thank you. I have a question here from Jim that I will read verbatim: “Much of the mystic tradition of seeking on Earth holds that belief that the individual self must be erased or obliterated and the material world ignored for an entity to reach ‘nirvana,’ as it’s called, or enlightenment. What is the proper role of the individual self and its worldly activities in aiding an entity to grow more into the Law of One?”

Ra: I am Ra. The proper role of the entity is in this density to experience all things desired, to then analyze, understand, and accept these experiences, distilling from them the love/light within them. Nothing shall be overcome. That which is not needed falls away.

The orientation develops due to analysis of desire. These desires become more and more distorted towards conscious application of love/light as the entity furnishes itself with distilled experience. We have found it to be inappropriate in the extreme to encourage the overcoming of any desires, except to suggest the imagination rather than the carrying out in the physical plane, as you call it, of those desires not consonant with the Law of One; this preserving the primal distortion of free will.

The reason it is unwise to overcome is that overcoming is an unbalanced action creating difficulties in balancing in the time/space continuum. Overcoming thus creates the further environment for holding onto that which apparently has been overcome.

All things are acceptable in the proper time for each entity, and in experiencing, in understanding, in accepting, in then sharing with other-selves, the appropriate description shall be moving away from distortions of one kind to distortions of another which may be more consonant with the Law of One.

It is, shall we say, a shortcut to simply ignore or overcome any desire. It must instead be understood and accepted. This takes patience and experience which can be analyzed with care, with compassion for self and for other-self.

[Relax]

It can't be right.. we are making dark jokes about nazis,holocaust,rape,racism,9/11,school shootings/genocide, every form of suffering is being made into a laughable meme, how are we allowing ourselves to make it seem ok? like it has no side effect on our thinking? doesn't it seem like we are losing our compassion into a form of insanity, laughing at other's suffering? (im sorry for my poor language it's so difficult for me to say what I want to say right now.)

I'm not laughing at other peoples suffering. But each to their own. Sometimes comedy is a way of accepting things.

You are not. But others are. The real intention of such things are normalizing such things and making them appear lightweight offenses, and if possible, even justifiable.

You and other generations which grew up with the knowledge and education which teaches that such things are unacceptable and inhumane.

But new generations growing up in an environment where such things are made lightweight jokes will have a much lighter perspective about such atrocities. Which prepares the environment for raising sociopaths.

Hitlerjugend was just raised in less than a decade. All you need to raise such a generation is to create an environment like that and take one generation that is currently growing up and start conditioning them in between ages 7 and or at most 12/15. Over 12, it becomes progressively harder. Radical islamists who raise suicide bombers and other radicals also do the same - condition them early.

......

This is exactly like the concept of free unregulated market in capitalism: It doesnt matter whether 90% of the players are decent. 1% to 10% of the players who stop at nothing for their own profit will totally destroy the system and take it over for their benefit.

So it doesnt matter whether you, your social circle, and even a larger group which you belong to are decent people who would not use such things as to normalize atrocities and then use them for creating fascists. The other few percent of the people who would do that, are enough.

exactly this - the level of sociopathy in generation z (and millennials) is increasing exponentially - it terrifies me... did anyone on b4 other than Jade watch the video Jade posted? It's basically were I've been coming from for decades... because my father saw Nazi MURDERS - and I studied Nazi Germany in school...

George Santayana-1905 said, “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”

I have a parent who experienced the results of and is still in living memory of ACTUAL NAZISM

You're being radicalised Anagogy. And I don't say that lightly (or with any malice towards you). I say it with deep concern.

And your beliefs are wholesale. Textbook - they're from the playbook of disenfranchised young white male Americans who hate feminism, social justice - are libertarian, angry, experience no triggering (as the world is set up for them) so are irritated by people becoming triggered (ie: alarmed, frightened, feeling threatened - BECAUSE THEY'VE BEEN SUBJECT TO ACTUAL PAST VIOLENCE) - because you can't relate to triggering because you're at the top of the pyramid/hierarchy (comparatively).

What was your reaction to the video Jade posted?

did you watch it Anagogy?
(nb: I think he may have me on mute) -so if anyone else wants to ask him if he watched it - that could be helpful....

You have had an antipathy to me, Jade and several other members (now left) for our calling attention to your beliefs. FOR YEARS Jade and I and others have been reading your snide, dismissive, rude tone towards us. You are one of the main reasons I have so often left B4th... and when I recently came back you tried to intimidate me by posting an aggressive post trying to "out" me as xyz - "monikers" - it doesn't matter who I was in the past - it's none of your freaking business when you're one of the bullying snide people that were the main reason I've left so often.

And for others here on B4 - see how he's speaking here in this thread? Especially so passive-aggressively to Jade? THIS IS why I've left so often.
Then tried to come back here with fresh energy - but he (and isis) have been obsessed with 'finding me' and harassing me again.

well - not this time.

That video Jade posted - that's what's happening to you

He just said each their own comedy and that sadly is free will. You can't pick and decide for others what they like and are drawn to and if a set of people resonates together on something you dislike then that is who they are.

Of course I can't - I don't expect that I can

Your choice then is about your own heart, where do you want what you feel for them to vibrate?

The part where he said spirits do laugh at us much more than we do at ourselves was missing, but went with that part. I think it is true that outside of incarnation, part of healing is learning to laugh at your own self and that drama that you had. Best would be to attain it while in incarnation. Then again, someone that laughs at another and not at themselves may very well just be blocked, but never lightening past things is heavy and not healing. When people are triggered by this sort of dissociative comedy, I think it resonates the part of them that is emotionally stuck and they resist its elevation.

In the Law of One there is no victim, there is the One with its free will. I think part of moving upward is to quit keeping things separate in your heart and when you reach high enough you see you were truly the center of your own path, others that hurt you answered your need through unconscious resonance and nothing was truly any random. You're even more likely to need to forgive yourself for having had need of someone to be broken and hurt you than you're likely to have grudge, although both fall away. I find this easier to do with the self, because I am able to distill symbolism in the events that happen to me and truly in this you will never see disservice nor random events. Doing this takes a lot of self-awareness and self-honesty but it is there whether you do the conscious realization or not, doing so enables you to see the way things work and become manifest and connect to the underlying truth beneath the ilusion in how everything is interconnected.

I believe what will really heal the world is to believe that all is well and radiate it, because that is the only way to love and forgive, so long you believe things are unwell you can neither love nor forgive and all your actions will be driven by your lower rays. Now this is not a one time thing and instead an on-going process with each thing that you are in relation to.

I get the idea to see it as loving to be triggered, but you say yourself you are triggered because of past experiences that are not related to the people found in this thread. I do not believe it is the self's responsability to avoid touching inadvertedly what is hurt in another and the movement also offers a catalyst that can be used for healing. Will you want to remain stuck emotionally where you are feeling stuck and justify it to be so or will you untie your personal knot?

A lot about the spiritual path requires faith, because it is the ilusion that creates separation and focusing on the ilusion is to entertain it. If you fight oppression with oppression, then you did not make someone mindful of the well being of another and instead are more likely to have reninforced the initial desire to oppress. It's a bit how you assume banning speedforce taught him how to be nicer but have you consisered, given the things he said previously, that he may have seen himself as a martyr silenced for speaking the truth and then may just be even more hardcore the next place he visits? Crucifying him for his cause seems like what will make him more sure of himself.

I did not say I am triggered by this thread - I said I was bullied in the past on B4 - but now have the strength to deal with it. I was supporting people who use the word 'trigger' to help people understand.

Here's how simple it is - a person who has been raped, will benefit from a warning if a discussion/article/documentary is going to head in the direction of discussing or describing assault especially sexual assault; so they can choose to avoid it... It's utterly insensitive to scorn that need.

I do not think the banning of speedforce will 'make him nicer' and that is not what I said.

I'm too tired to keep arguing this. If you don't get it - you don't get it.

[Minyatur]

It's cool we have a different interpretation. I find it interesting that you seem to think you have a better vantage point of what unity means than Ra does. This is probably part of why we disagree.

I don't. I am saying that as entities they have the honor/duty of having distortions and you tend to focus on when they express these distortions more than when they express their understanding of the Law of One.

It is entirely valid that the Law of One is not what interests someone most in the material, it is not the enteriety of its content, but in certain places they do talk about it directly and state it quite clearly. Like in the basic premise, they do say each entity has made the choice to experience an alternative of understanding the complete unity of thought that binds all things. So I'm not saying there is no victim because there is no pain, there is no victim because each entity has made the choice to experience separation and pain. It never was in any case necessary, just free will.

We're all free to distort the material however we please. I think empathy is a primary component of polarizing in third density via Ra's transmission of the Law of One. It is my estimation that most of these posts that are "anti-SJW" lack empathy because they do not understand that what makes someone an "SJW" is empathy. You're so worried about the person who carelessly hit someone that it's easy to forget about the person who is suffering, the person with the broken leg. They have every right to be angry. The first step to healing that anger is understanding that anger. When we tell people that they need to stop being victims, what it feels like is that we don't understand their anger, or that they don't have the right to be angry. Insisting to someone that "all is well" when they literally cannot walk because the physical mechanism that they use to walk is broken, it seems to me to be missing the point.

Ra very clearly discourages people to "rise above" their catalyst with a cold detachment. This is what I feel people perpetuate.

18.5 ▶ Questioner: Thank you. I have a question here from Jim that I will read verbatim: “Much of the mystic tradition of seeking on Earth holds that belief that the individual self must be erased or obliterated and the material world ignored for an entity to reach ‘nirvana,’ as it’s called, or enlightenment. What is the proper role of the individual self and its worldly activities in aiding an entity to grow more into the Law of One?”

Ra: I am Ra. The proper role of the entity is in this density to experience all things desired, to then analyze, understand, and accept these experiences, distilling from them the love/light within them. Nothing shall be overcome. That which is not needed falls away.

The orientation develops due to analysis of desire. These desires become more and more distorted towards conscious application of love/light as the entity furnishes itself with distilled experience. We have found it to be inappropriate in the extreme to encourage the overcoming of any desires, except to suggest the imagination rather than the carrying out in the physical plane, as you call it, of those desires not consonant with the Law of One; this preserving the primal distortion of free will.

The reason it is unwise to overcome is that overcoming is an unbalanced action creating difficulties in balancing in the time/space continuum. Overcoming thus creates the further environment for holding onto that which apparently has been overcome.

All things are acceptable in the proper time for each entity, and in experiencing, in understanding, in accepting, in then sharing with other-selves, the appropriate description shall be moving away from distortions of one kind to distortions of another which may be more consonant with the Law of One.

It is, shall we say, a shortcut to simply ignore or overcome any desire. It must instead be understood and accepted. This takes patience and experience which can be analyzed with care, with compassion for self and for other-self.

Ya but this goes both ways. Like I said earlier in this thread, no one becomes mean and hateful through being nurtured in love and compassion.

Everyone had a valid story to how each other person can become them. There is a wheel to anger, so who is to stop the wheel? Those who are most deeply stuck into its pattern? Or those who are still a whole lot more sensitive to other things?

[Diana]

Ra very clearly discourages people to "rise above" their catalyst with a cold detachment. This is what I feel people perpetuate.

People may deal with catalyst differently. Just because they may seem to be coldly detached does not mean they are not observing and dealing with catalyst. It seems to me that some of this discussion is so very polarized in the extreme. It goes back to the OP really, and judgments about the wisdom vs. love debate, and to me how it is mistaken for intellectual vs. emotional. There is some "middle way" thinking.

People who advocate for free speech are not necessarily insensitive to those who are hurt by it, and people who advocate for victims are not necessarily against free speech. One thing does not exclude the other. While we separate into camps, such as Democrat and Republican, I think it will continue to be difficult to work for the good of all. We are far from that state of being. And it is essential that our distortions are brought out into the light of day.

For example, the idea of victimhood, defined narrowly by society, creates judgments and limitations. Advocating in the normal societal way usually involves blaming someone. But instead of spending any energy on that, I think it actually works better by empowering the so-called victim. I say so-called because I dislike labels. I prefer to add light instead of take away darkness, so to speak—in line with Ra's statement about coming across a starving entity and feeding that entity.

The word victim implies, of course, an assailant. And this is true from a 3D perspective. Limiting by law what assailants can do legally is something our unevolved society apparently needs. We all make choices (or choose not to choose). By calling someone a victim, you take away their power. (And I am only referring to humans here.) I don't mean to say that there aren't any crimes against people. What I mean to say is there is a bigger picture and other layers of what is happening here, beyond the first layer in 3D of a one-dimensional occurrence (assailant + victim = crime).
   

[Jade]

I get it, I really do. Victimhood is subjective. I agree. I don't see myself as a victim, like I used to, and it's helpful. I understand how this frame of view helps.

I just want someone to actually try to go to a trans woman of color and explain to her, "Well, you chose this incarnation, and Ra says that there is no right or wrong, and you can choose whether or not you are a victim! It's easy! All is well!" and see if she has a sudden healing epiphany. It's possible, don't get me wrong. I guess my point is I feel like we have to work with a little more nuance in most situations. Not everyone has read the Ra material so this extremely unique and powerful vantage point we have isn't as crystallized. Every person is unique. That's the whole point. If we could just say the same magic words to everyone to make them feel enlightened and safe, we wouldn't be in third density anymore. There are no magic words. It's about energy. And a person must truly feel understood before you can heal them. It's the nature of blue ray - or wisdom, as we all like to talk so much about. Wisdom is about an energy exchange, and from that energy exchange comes understanding. If there is no understanding achieved by both parties, then there is no blue ray energy exchange, and therefore the "wisdom" energy has some distortion. My point is about seeking an energy exchange where everyone feels like they were heard and understood.

Blue ray is also about honesty. If you are saying to someone, "you are not a victim" - even if you believe it - it's possible they will think you are lying. Hence the lack of perceived understanding.

32.5 ▶ Questioner: OK. Thank you. I believe that for the time being we’ve amply covered green ray, so I am going to skip over green ray and go to blue ray. Could you tell me the difference that occurs between green and blue with the emphasis on blue ray?

Ra: I am Ra. With the green-ray transfer of energy you now come to the great turning point sexually as well as in each other mode of experience. The green ray may then be turned outward, the entity then giving rather than receiving. The first giving beyond green ray is the giving of acceptance or freedom, thus allowing the recipient of blue-ray energy transfer the opportunity for a feeling of being accepted, thus freeing that other-self to express itself to the giver of this ray. It will be noted that once green-ray energy transfer has been achieved by two mind/body/spirits in mating, the further rays are available without both entities having the necessity to progress equally. Thus a blue-ray vibrating entity or indigo-ray vibrating entity whose other ray vibrations are clear may share that energy with the green-ray other-self, thus acting as catalyst for the continued learn/teaching of the other-self. Until an other-self reaches green ray, such energy transfers through the rays is not possible.

Most people who are oppressed - trans, gay, female, Muslim, whatever - do not feel acceptance or understanding when you tell them to rise out of their victimhood. They aren't there yet, and they have to feel like you understand them before they will take any of your advice. It's just the metaphysical nature of the energy transfer, I'm not trying to get philosophical here.

[Diana]

I just want someone to actually try to go to a trans woman of color and explain to her, "Well, you chose this incarnation, and Ra says that there is no right or wrong, and you can choose whether or not you are a victim! It's easy! All is well!" 
…

Most people who are oppressed - trans, gay, female, Muslim, whatever - do not feel acceptance or understanding when you tell them to rise out of their victimhood. They aren't there yet, and they have to feel like you understand them before they will take any of your advice. It's just the metaphysical nature of the energy transfer, I'm not trying to get philosophical here.

I personally would not tell anyone that. Neither do I think "all is well."

What I mean—if any of what you said was in response to me—by my comments about victimhood are not about calling "victims" out and lecturing them. 1) I just don't like labels (and that is another conversation), and 2) I am more interested in empowering people. I see pain everywhere, in victims and perpetrators. That's why I think prisons should be places of healing rather than punishment.

I do understand the need to give ostracized people a pause, a respite, from the brunt of societal bias. That is one side of a complicated world we live in. I don't have any answers, other than to do what I do in my life based on my own conscience, sense of integrity, and evolving awareness of the bigger picture. There are others who are activists, and I honor that and see the need for it in this world.

[Minyatur]

I just want someone to actually try to go to a trans woman of color and explain to her, "Well, you chose this incarnation, and Ra says that there is no right or wrong, and you can choose whether or not you are a victim! It's easy! All is well!" 
…

Most people who are oppressed - trans, gay, female, Muslim, whatever - do not feel acceptance or understanding when you tell them to rise out of their victimhood. They aren't there yet, and they have to feel like you understand them before they will take any of your advice. It's just the metaphysical nature of the energy transfer, I'm not trying to get philosophical here.

I personally would not tell anyone that. Neither do I think "all is well."

What I mean—if any of what you said was in response to me—by my comments about victimhood are not about calling "victims" out and lecturing them. 1) I just don't like labels (and that is another conversation), and 2) I am more interested in empowering people. I see pain everywhere, in victims and perpetrators. That's why I think prisons should be places of healing rather than punishment.

That is exactly it. You can make the person feel whole and complete without demonizing someone else.

You can even get to no right and wrong indirectly if you want, as in you can say that people can be ignorant and full of issues that they do not know how to cope with and end up hating things they find easy to single out. That the human nature is weak and easily twisted, so the person should focus on their own view of themselves and not bother with the jugments of others that can be literally any way, you can say that you personally accept that person as they are. You empower the person where they feel disempowered without having to make it about unfairness and victimization that tends to keep someone stuck as hurt. If someone is convinced they were wronged and that it is unfair, they quit wanting to get to feel better because it means to accept and accepting means to let go.

[rva_jeremy]

This essay best explains why some find Peterson unpalatable. In short, he's an obscurantist who delights in saying a lot without really ever delivering any added insight. In this way he often comes out on top in conversations, not because he convinces the other party or anybody else, but because he never allows himself to be pinned down, and so his points can never really be challenged. Right wingers typically gravitate to this approach to ideas because it allows one to sneak in all sorts of untestable assumptions about reality that more or less map to "tradition". I personally find myself upset at the way he spins Jungian philosophy in pretty silly and unnuanced ways; as a leftist, it's hard enough to defend Jung from legitimate critiques of his fascist period.

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2018/03/t...we-deserve

[Merrick]

I find it humorous (or perhaps a less generous word) that a thread about recognizing the validity of wisdom has been hijacked by alt-right talking points and contentious naysaying from those using those talking points. Where is the wisdom in a fascist philosophy?

[Patrick]

For the past few days I have been getting many unexplained left ear tones and could not understand what could be the link between them all.  Reading this thread, I believe I found the reason behind most occurrences.

Anyway, personally I like the concept of compassionate-wisdom over plain wisdom or plain compassion.

[krb]

redacted. not worth the effort to respond in this thread.

[Relax]

This essay best explains why some find Peterson unpalatable. In short, he's an obscurantist who delights in saying a lot without really ever delivering any added insight. In this way he often comes out on top in conversations, not because he convinces the other party or anybody else, but because he never allows himself to be pinned down, and so his points can never really be challenged. Right wingers typically gravitate to this approach to ideas because it allows one to sneak in all sorts of untestable assumptions about reality that more or less map to "tradition". I personally find myself upset at the way he spins Jungian philosophy in pretty silly and unnuanced ways; as a leftist, it's hard enough to defend Jung from legitimate critiques of his fascist period.

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2018/03/t...we-deserve

thank you for the link - excellent analysis of Peterson waffle

having done a university degree I recognise his using faux 'academic' spiel to obfuscate - not clarify meaning .

He was on a National broadcaster televised panel here in AU with intellectuals, scientists, politicians, students, etc of varying beliefs, ideas, affiliations, but all were either disconcerted, bemused, bored, or astonished fairly soon into the 'debate' at his inability to be concise and interactively flexible (he spoke in a sort of rote droning paternalistic 'give me half an hour to explain myself' for each short (time constraint) allocated reply) - he was very 'ponderous'; basically was unaware it wasn't possible to speak in a self indulgent 'holding court' manner - given there were 5 other panellists and a live studio audience. He spoke in such a self conscious, self aggrandising way it was embarrassing - panel members and audience alike, were either huh? 'who is this guy?'...or if they knew of him... still astonished at his monotonous pomposity. He rarely interacted with others - more gave replies that were spiels on his pet theories/beliefs - there was no open engaging of ideas... he spoke with a fixity, a closed circuit of ideas - a self referring absolutist meaning of 'truth'. It was very embarrassing - he just didn't realise it; because he was in Australia not Canada/USA - we haven't swallowed his 'pill' - but he's so fixated on the certainty of his own 'brilliance' - he was (naturally) blind to that.

[rva_jeremy]

Also, want to say that I don't think Peterson's philosophy has zero merit. Far from it. I just think it's not very original or deep compared to the thought he sourced all this from. That wouldn't be a big deal in an of itself -- lots of people tweak existing philosophies and put their brand on it, yours truly included. It is the authority he implicitly claims as a YouTube personality, as a figure with followers, that introduces danger. He could focus on his academic work and deliver value, but instead he's gotten into the professional personality game, and I just don't detect a lot of virtue in that.

In short, I'm not too worried about Anagogy, for example, being blown off his course by Peterson. But I am a little concerned for people who haven't done their own investigation of the underlying source ideas of Peterson's philosophy (to the extent the term fits, because I don't think there's a lot of coherent structure to his thought, even in Maps of Meaning). Right wing politics is always about charismatic leaders who flatter their followers, and tradition is always about retreating to the known and comfortable in contradistinction to the new, the uncertain, the other.

[Louisabell]

Looking at archetypes in literature can be interesting, but they are fundamentally abstractions in the pure sense and so are like vapour, as easily as they are created, they can be disintegrated. It can be said that the feminine's propensity of co-operation and maintaining social cohesion has a stabilizing and ordering affect on society, while the masculine's propensity to be territorial and out compete his peers has a chaotic effect on society. And so, it is not difficult to find counter examples to Jordan's theories, and yet he seems so very attached to his mental creations, as though they are the key to unlock some never discovered truths in psychology and sociology. I just don't see the value beyond entertainment.

I just love this quote from the article you posted, I think it also has spiritual significance.

People can have such angry arguments about Peterson, seeing him as everything from a fascist apologist to an Enlightenment liberal, because his vacuous words are a kind of Rorschach test onto which countless interpretations can be projected.

[rva_jeremy]

Looking at archetypes in literature can be interesting, but they are fundamentally abstractions in the pure sense and so are like vapour, as easily as they are created, they can be disintegrated. It can be said that the feminine's propensity of co-operation and maintaining social cohesion has a stabilizing and ordering affect on society, while the masculine's propensity to be territorial and out compete his peers has a chaotic effect on society. And so, it is not difficult to find counter examples to Jordan's theories, and yet he seems so very attached to his mental creations, as though they are the key to unlock some never discovered truths in psychology and sociology. I just don't see the value beyond entertainment.

I agree with this analysis. If you approach archetypes with the goal of "cracking the code" you're inevitably going to run yourself into the ditch of reductive representationalism that Peterson exemplifies. He seems to reach for the platonic abstractions and then, just when it's getting interesting, he reifies everything and blows it. If you're just going to map the feminine archetype to females, for example, I mean, what are you doing. Why are you either bothering. The entire point is that we contain all the archetypes. As those of Ra say, they do not explicate; they haunt.

I just love this quote from the article you posted, I think it also has spiritual significance.

People can have such angry arguments about Peterson, seeing him as everything from a fascist apologist to an Enlightenment liberal, because his vacuous words are a kind of Rorschach test onto which countless interpretations can be projected.

Right, which is why it's such a betrayal of the Jungian perspective. It's like saying the Law of One is liberal (or conservative); to reduce such a pure and noumenal subject to a magic eight ball for politics shows you don't even understand the gold you're squandering. I think that's why Peterson angers me: to me, it's clear he knows better than to be so reductive, but he'd never have a powerful message if he stayed in the clouds and didn't try to craft a marketable message he can sell.

[Jade]

23 posts were split from this thread and moved to the Community Relations forum here. https://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthre...?tid=17288

[randomoaf]

[moved]

[anagogy]

You're being radicalised Anagogy. And I don't say that lightly (or with any malice towards you). I say it with deep concern.

That's really funny to hear from you, the *actual unholy living embodiment of hateful divisive identity politics*. LOL. Talk about being radicalized. I'm literally laughing to tears after reading that statement.

Thank-you for the laughter. Really, I mean that.

 

And your beliefs are wholesale. Textbook - they're from the playbook of disenfranchised young white male Americans who hate feminism, social justice - are libertarian, angry, experience no triggering (as the world is set up for them) so are irritated by people becoming triggered (ie: alarmed, frightened, feeling threatened - BECAUSE THEY'VE BEEN SUBJECT TO ACTUAL PAST VIOLENCE) - because you can't relate to triggering because you're at the top of the pyramid/hierarchy (comparatively).

Sort of like how your beliefs are wholesale from the "Handbook for SJWs: a first graders view of looking at the world from the perspective of a victimized eternally triggered snowflake"?

What was your reaction to the video Jade posted?

Didn't seem very credible. Seemed like "propaganda".

THIS IS why I've left so often.

Hey, now there's an idea.

Then tried to come back here with fresh energy - but he (and isis) have been obsessed with 'finding me' and harassing me again.

Yeah no. LOL. Neither one of us cares enough about you to be obsessed with you. But speaking for myself, I don't care how many personalities you have, I just get annoyed when people like you deceptively try to pretend like you are someone else. Create all the forum personalities you want. Really, I don't care. Just don't try to deceive everyone into thinking you are someone else and you don't have to worry about me pointing it out to the people who might think you're being honest or "authentic".

[Relax]

You're being radicalised Anagogy. And I don't say that lightly (or with any malice towards you). I say it with deep concern.

That's really funny to hear from you, the *actual unholy living embodiment of hateful divisive identity politics*. LOL. Talk about being radicalized. I'm literally laughing to tears after reading that statement.

Thank-you for the laughter. Really, I mean that.

 

And your beliefs are wholesale. Textbook - they're from the playbook of disenfranchised young white male Americans who hate feminism, social justice - are libertarian, angry, experience no triggering (as the world is set up for them) so are irritated by people becoming triggered (ie: alarmed, frightened, feeling threatened - BECAUSE THEY'VE BEEN SUBJECT TO ACTUAL PAST VIOLENCE) - because you can't relate to triggering because you're at the top of the pyramid/hierarchy (comparatively).

Sort of like how your beliefs are wholesale from the "Handbook for SJWs: a first graders view of looking at the world from the perspective of a victimized eternally triggered snowflake"?

What was your reaction to the video Jade posted?

Didn't seem very credible. Seemed like "propaganda".

THIS IS why I've left so often.

Hey, now there's an idea.

Then tried to come back here with fresh energy - but he (and isis) have been obsessed with 'finding me' and harassing me again.

Yeah no. LOL. Neither one of us cares enough about you to be obsessed with you. But speaking for myself, I don't care how many personalities you have, I just get annoyed when people like you deceptively try to pretend like you are someone else. Create all the forum personalities you want. Really, I don't care. Just don't try to deceive everyone into thinking you are someone else and you don't have to worry about me pointing it out to the people who might think you're being honest or "authentic".

replying to show this post in it's entirety - in case you modify it

and to show the hate you have within you

to me, Jade, others here - (and past members who have left b4 because of you)

[anagogy]

replying to show this post in it's entirety - in case you modify it

and to show the hate you have within you

to me, Jade, others here -  (and past members who have left b4 because of you)

[Relax]

speaking of 'hilarious' - for someone who says "Neither one of us cares enough about you to be obsessed with you."

you sure go to A LOT OF effort in putting your posts together... very artistically expressive *slow hand clap*

and even though you hate the word/concept - you're also looking MIGHTILY "triggered" yourself !

[randomoaf]

Speaking of SJW, the reason why I am not in favor is because from my perspective, social justice isn't real. Social justice claims to support POC, LGBT and all that jazz but at the end of the day, people only want something for their group. I am a real POC (Asian) but in the eyes of western media, we are not POC. None of our issues matter and a lot of injustice with the Asian community goes under the radar. For example when are the SJW's going to talk about the pedophiles that come to Southeast Asia? When I look at SJW's in the past, I've seen them do unsavory things in the name of justice (such as censorship, speaking over other POC and so on). You can't claim to be fighting the good fight in the name of what's good when your moral standard is low.

So yeah that's my POV on social justice. Don't call it hate speech or anything. As a real POC, I've seen and experienced a lot of injustice. I wish things could be more fairer for us. It only seems to be getting worse and people are getting more hostile against Asians. They're now claiming that poor Asian students at Stuyvesant cheated to get to where they are and they want to either downgrade or change the testing system so that more Black students can get in. The system is stacked against Asian kids there because they have to study on their own as well as travel far once they get admitted. Meanwhile, the SJW accepted minority kids (Black/Hispanic) have specialized programs that Asian kids are being kept out of. Even after all that, the Asian kids still beat them. Until social justice fights for equality of all, I do not believe nor support it.

[anagogy]

speaking of 'hilarious' - for someone who says "Neither one of us cares enough about you to be obsessed with you."

you sure go to A LOT OF effort in putting your posts together... very artistically expressive *slow hand clap*

and even though you hate the word/concept - you're also looking MIGHTILY "triggered" yourself !

Somehow, I doubt I'm as triggered as you.

[Louisabell]

Speaking of SJW, the reason why I am not in favor is because from my perspective, social justice isn't real. Social justice claims to support POC, LGBT and all that jazz but at the end of the day, people only want something for their group. I am a real POC (Asian) but in the eyes of western media, we are not POC. ... As a real POC, I've seen and experienced a lot of injustice. I wish things could be more fairer for us.  ...  Until social justice fights for equality of all, I do not believe nor support it.

I'm just curious ... if social justice was accomplishing what they claim to be doing (all groups being treated fairly, equally and with dignity) would you be for it?

Edit: wecome back by the way

[Relax]

I was just having a pm with a member here and this may give some clarity to B4 as to how I view the usage of the (derogatory) term 'SJW":

Relaxo: "My best friend (we first met at University 33 years ago) - is the Secretary General at FIDH - International Federation for Human Rights; and Coordinator/Founder of the Alternative ASEAN Network on Burma. (ALTSEAN-Burma) and prior to that Asia Pacific Forum on Women, Law and Development (APWLD).

This is part of why I find the whole 'SJW' meme/insult disturbing/undermining... my friend is working on the front lines with refugees, imprisoned journalists, totalitarian governments.. etc ... particularly involved with the rape/murder/ethnic cleansing of ie: Rohingya... visits refugee camps that are the size of cities... everyone living under cardboard/plastic sheeting... she regularly addresses the UN etc; I'm currently helping her compile information on human rights violations/abuses worldwide - into short form for an AGM. The things I'm reading about (Global press releases etc) are intense - heart breaking... this is a very harsh 3D situation/planet/epoch

- so I find the ignorance of some here (and limited life experience) frustrating. "

I get that 'anti-fa' have given the 'left' bad PR at times.... but the over reaction and (as you can see above) infantile reduction of important human rights activism/support activities down to memes etc - it shows ignorance of the wider picture.
The planetary issue of STS/STO is HAPPENING right now and it's not being that much influenced by Disney memes, snide bitchiness and getting your philosophy spoon-fed to you by you-tube videos and populist media players and then sitting behind a keyboard being clearly hateful to others.

(Not knocking Disney per-se btw)

[Relax]

speaking of 'hilarious' - for someone who says "Neither one of us cares enough about you to be obsessed with you."

you sure go to A LOT OF effort in putting your posts together... very artistically expressive *slow hand clap*

and even though you hate the word/concept - you're also looking MIGHTILY "triggered" yourself !

Somehow, I doubt I'm as triggered as you.

somehow I SO THINK you are....

(come on Anagogy - you can outdo this post.. ! atta boy - you go there.. I'm sure you can create a spielberg compilation if you try hard enough... go to it ... meme some more)

[anagogy]

(come on Anagogy - you can outdo this post.. ! atta boy - you go there.. I'm sure you can create a spielberg compilation if you try hard enough... go to it ... meme some more)

Well I might have to, you know, since I'M SO OBSESSED WITH YOU. LMAO.

Narcissistic much? LOL.