Why the hate for wisdom?

[Diana]

Okay, before I respond to individual things in the thread, I will put on my moderator hat. Plenum and Austin are busy with other stuff this weekend.

I cleaned up this thread, kind of. It was suggested to take the whole thread offline, which still might happened. As of now, I took out the most egregious posts, and I will go back through and reread to make sure I didn't miss anything... as always, help is appreciated. It's really sad to log in to 9 moderator reports, two posts having been reported 3 times so actually a total of 13 reports, but it's great to have feedback from other forum members on what is not appropriate - because we actually do prefer a more democratic approach, we just don't get a ton of feedback usually so we have to make decisions based on what we try to understand as being in the forum's best interests.

I don't envy this position of having to make these decisions. Love to you and a big hug.

I would like to suggest to all here that it's always a good move when things become heated to simply get back on point to the subject being discussed, not the people discussing it. 

[Jade]

I've been a part of this community for many years now. At this point, I see a lot of the same fallacies about the Law of One posted quite often. Certain versions of these fallacies are dangerous because they are an inversion of the proper interpretation of the material, which usually ends up being a slippery slope into self service.

I think I know what you are trying to get at, but I would like to comment on the language used because I think it's misleading.

"Dangerous" is a dangerous descriptor in my opinion. I would agree with you if I were a "follower" depending on someone(thing) beyond myself to tell me what to do, but I think everyone should make their own decisions and work things out for themselves. Is there a proper interpretation of the material? If there is, which flawed human here has the correct interpretation?

Basically, way too often, I see people encouraging a use of wisdom which, in its full expression, is actually closing the heart chakra. Closing the heart chakra is not wisdom!!! I feel like most people's understanding is that we get to the green ray, and it's just this overflowing mess and wisdom must tame this curse. When I come across this attitude, to me it is a lack of understanding about the green ray, and when I see that, it seems silly to encourage people to move into the blue ray. For me, interpretations of the philosophy which encourage others, whether directly or implied, to close the heart in search of wisdom should always be challenged.

I'm not sure I can articulationg this well, but here goes.

This to me is an example of too closely following words by Ra or any entity or thing outside of self. It all may be true, but if we move away from trying to fit everything into the words and language of Ra (and other entities channeled by this group about the LOO) the picture may become more clear. I don't mean to say the LOO material is not to be referenced or studied, I mean adherence to the labels can be a deterrent to simple common sense or thinking for one's self.

In 4th density, when the veil drops, we will have a group mind. In the group mind, we cannot think things like, "trans people have mental illness" or "women are too weak to protect others" or "that person needs to get out of their victim mentality". There is only harmony available, which means we must let go of the thoughts and actions that bring disharmony. Until our thoughts and feelings are pure enough that others will be able to read them without repulsion, we are not ready for a fourth density social memory complex, and the lessons are of love and acceptance, not wisdom.

By wisdom I assume you mean intellect/mind? Because I think wisdom is very different from intellect/mind.

And by "group mind" I assume you mean transparency of thought and essence of self? Because I personally don't see evolving to a group ming per say. I see it more like a transparency, and magnetizing to others who are close in essence, and because of the transparency actually knowing the essence of others who are now not hiding in a private internal dialogue. You might think as one in a SMC, but that's because your resonate with the same thoughts, not because you surrender to a group mind.

I'm totally nitpicking here. But my mind can't help it.

I also don't see it as letting go of thoughts and actions that bring disharmony, because I see it more as just not judging. I don't seek to harmonize with others; I seek to harmonize with myself—like chipping away at the marble block to get to the beautiful statue within. I'm not trying to blend with others, rather I am trying to become me in my highest form, and in doing so, it follows that I harmonize with others, not the other way around.

I can see that along the way one might try to force acceptance and "fake it till you make it" which is an axiom I definitely think is efficacious. But I feel the true reality is to transform self, and in doing so one's attitude toward others transforms. So in getting to the point of transparency in 4D, in my view, it is about self-transformation not trying to blend with others. Trying to blend does not eliminate ingrained prejudices and fears, though it may help. Self-exploration and self-honesty, letting go of defenses, letting down the protective walls, and moving beyond survival needs is a more natural way, to me, to acceptance of others' paths and choices.

---

I really don't see what the big deal is about transgender people. I remember seeing a movie (the title of which I don't recall) set in Africa. There was a character driving an old station wagon around, which he painted with crazy designs, and it had curtains hanging in the windows, and I thought how cool that was. So individual and self-expressive. And I immediately saw that something like that here in the US would be judged and scoffed at, but there in the African city it looked so cool and like so much fun and freedom.

The problem is that this is a Ra material forum, so it's not really a good point of contention to say that interpretations are adhering too strictly to the material. If people are using the material to confuse others, I prefer to use it to bring more clarity.

Ra makes a lot of warnings about using negative wisdom and polarizing too quickly and moving into the higher chakras without the lower chakras. This is why I call it "dangerous". Ra says that a type of insanity is associated with this. I've seen that insanity on these forums, and I think you have, too.

I also believe that the whole of Confederation philosophy is about harmonizing with others, in fact, sacrificing to harmonize with others, so that's just a philosophical point we don't agree upon. I know it's radical so I don't expect most to agree with me. 

I also haven't made any proclamations about what wisdom is or isn't, I just am bucking against the promulgation of the idea the people should focus on wisdom over love. I think most people don't understand what wisdom is, myself included. What I do know is that wisdom is a natural part of the progression, so if we focus on love first, then we can't help but move into wisdom. The light within is reaching ever upward, we just have to get out of its way by clearing our chakras. To get to the blue ray, the green must be unblocked. I've never met anyone with a completely unblocked green ray, so to me, it seems "wise" to suggest that people focus on the heart chakra, and let wisdom be the natural progression from the efforts of the heart.

[Infinite]

Man, this is a forum. Doesn't matter the subject, a forum needs admins and rules. The admins are not being STS in limitate the actions of trolls and the people who want just cause disharmony. The universe has hierarchies which administrate it. Confederation, even being "saints" on our perspective, still engage themselves in wars because that's the nature of polarity, sometimes have to choose the conflict. When we limitate harmful actions of people, we are just helping them.

[Infinite Unity]

At the core every being understands a basic knowledge of good and evil, of unity and separation. Every being knows what it should do, in a large beyond specific circumstances, knowledge. Every being knows it's should do right by others, that it should do the right thing.

However we are very curious, and at certain levels of our being, we shun the existence/wisdom of oneness, of unity. We fill in, and focus on as many distractions as possible. So when someone energy/focus is attuned towards seeking Unity, many times the two fields will repel, grind against, and many other energy exchanges.

So many times wisdom is aligned to unity, to coming back to who at what we all really are. Many beings are focused on not seeing that, on not balancing themselves, and coming to that creator conscience. They feel as if they would be giving themselves, and everything up, they believe they would be less. They dont see that the creator is all things, and so is very much.....more/complete. However dont worry we always come around. It is inevitable.

[Cyan]

Cyan.. I am a WOMAN

I actually wish you well - ask Gem wolf - I mentioned that to him - I said that I don't always like a lot of what you say (or have said) because it directly attacks or threatens my rights and safety as a female person in this world... but I've felt fondness for you at times.)

I once spoke to you harshly when you were asking forum members to donate our money to you.
but I wasn't the only person who did that by the way... and other than that - I haven't been 'hateful'

just because I stand up for myself doesn't mean I wish ill towards people

I mean - come on... speedforce only needs to reread his posts to see how patronising, self aggrandising, lecturing, blunt and without diplomacy he's been since the short time he's been here. And I'm just one of quite a few people reacting to his dismissive, bossy attitude

Yet he can't handle people who reply with equal assertiveness as he uses?

total double standard


btw-
and - for full disclosure - for the forum - Cyan's reply to my pm was

f*** off dirtbag

now THAT'S "hateful"

Dont send me a hostile PM and expect me to be nice, Womyn.

[Cyan]

Jade, your going so far in your attempt to intentionally misunderstand me that its mindboggling, I think its better if I switch over to reading the forums instead of posting now and letting the womyn here calm down. Ill be around

[Diana]

The problem is that this is a Ra material forum, so it's not really a good point of contention to say that interpretations are adhering too strictly to the material. If people are using the material to confuse others, I prefer to use it to bring more clarity.

It was not my intention to be contentious. I'm just adding in my own perspective.

Your preference of using the material for clarity aligns with how I use any information including the Ra material. But I do think saying some here use it for confusing others is subjective, although it does at times appear that may be the case.

Some subjects bring out triggers, buried feelings, guilt and all sorts of repressed issues, and that's good for awareness.

In this I agree with Infinite Unity:

However dont worry we always come around. It is inevitable.

There are many ways people try to control others (which I think can be a misplaced effort to control self), and resist change. Sometimes it manifests as contrariness, sometimes as passive-agressiveness, sometimes as bullying, etc.

Why argue with this sort of behavior and give it power? Rather than try to argue with what another person is pushing, I find it more effective to stay on, or go back to, point and make better explanations about a particular subject being canvassed. Then the person's words stay with the person, not absorbed or amplified by someone else. (Ideally anyway—sometimes it is not so simple.)

However, this only applies to a poster here, not someone responsible for moderating content.

[anagogy]

I find people often call things "hate speech" when they don't want to engage the logic someone is putting forth.

It is easier to just silence people by labeling them, then to ask them to justify their logical axioms.

Silencing people, like some people in this thread are suggesting admins/mods to do just makes the situation worse, and is the true representation of blockage in my opinion and seems to me very fascist. If you don't allow someone to express themselves, and then debate their ideas, you're just stifling their growth (and your own) which is the opposite of truth sharing in my opinion. You don't change their mind, you just make it someone else's problem.

Having said that, if someone is just being unreasonable, and I'm not accusing anyone here, you can always just ignore and not engage. People always have to have the last word. I find most moderation just amounts to silencing people because you don't agree with them. It isn't acceptance, it is just controlling the situation. Obviously personal attacks have to be monitored, but as long as someone is just discussing ideas, in my opinion it should be allowed, even if you think they are "negative ideas". Oftentimes, I've seen people on this forum act like they're "nice" but it was obvious they were just using a thin veneer of positivity to disguise their own selfish manipulative tendencies. So the comments were allowed, but I found their ideas quite repugnant and negative in the extreme.

My point is, you can't always objectively know what is negative and positive, so thinking you can prune a discussion of negativity by deplatforming anyone you disagree with is narcissism in the extreme.

[Louisabell]

I find people often call things "hate speech" when they don't want to engage the logic someone is putting forth.

It is easier to just silence people by labeling them, then to ask them to justify their logical axioms.

Kind of like when your arguments are dismissed due to being called a LARPer, or being told that all the womyn here just need to calm down, while having all our valid points ignored. I guess it's convenient to pull that one out when you're clearly losing the argument.

The hypocrisy here is laughable.

My point is, you can't always objectively know what is negative and positive, so thinking you can prune a discussion of negativity by deplatforming anyone you disagree with is narcissism in the extreme.

And yet, who has been deplatformed here? No one has been booted out.

We all agreed to partcipate in a moderated forum. I don't understand what the big surprise here is? Bring 4th is associated with a non-profit organisation that has certain responsibilities. They have every right as an organisation to chose what they associate with, what they allow on the online infrastructure they've built.

There are plenty of totally free spaces on the internet that aren't monitored at all. I'm glad they exist, but I wouldn't hang there, like most people wouldn't, and we all know why.

[Jade]

The words "deplatformed" and "fascist" seem a little dramatic to me, especially considering the actual reach of this forum, but I understand why you feel that way. The thing is, we do have an agenda here as moderators, and that is to try to cultivate an atmosphere of acceptance and service to others. If the three (or four) of us moderators agree that we need to 'deplatform' someone, well, that's what we're here to do, because we're not going to sit by and let our soft and squishy and trusting and beautiful members be treated disrespectfully. As I mentioned before, actual bans are very rare, and the removal of posts isn't very common either. 

In fact, it was easy for me to do the math. Out of 247,373 posts in the two main forum groups (Bring4th Community and Bring4th Studies), we have removed 1,072 posts. That's .4% of posts that have ever been removed. Of those 1,072 removed posts, there were 57 threads that were removed in their entirety - so, many of these removed posts were not singling out a poster. In fact I think several of these are threads that had to be removed after an old member who was the OP of these threads edited their OP and all their followup replies to the threads making them essentially useless. So sometimes people choose to deplatform themselves.

Anyway, I see the valor in your good fight against authority, I've definitely fought your side of this fight before, but I don't see us easing up any time soon on what we allow people to post here, because we actually get way more complaints about being lenient than we do about being fascist. We have a set of formal rules, and a set of suggested guidelines. They are actually fairly strict for the average internet forum that most of us are used to, but reasonable given the philosophy. We all agree to post under these rules when we create an account here. If you see someone you think is breaking the rules, please let us know (citing the rule and specific place in a post helps a lot). We actually aren't always here nitpicking the threads. But, this forum wasn't created to be a Law of One free will debate club, or even to be a "serious" study of the Law of One. This argument on "what type of group Bring4th should be" is as old as the forum, and we will always err on the side of cultivating an atmosphere with a harmonized goal of love and support, that is, focus upon the green ray. It is even our name, of course. Bring fourth/forth, if there's anyone who hadn't noticed the pun yet. Maybe one of you who is firm in their convictions of what they want this forum to be should create a Bring5th.org (or think of some other cute pun, I'm not good at this) where we could have serious study with democratic moderation (or zero moderation) and a focus on wisdom over love. This platform isn't unique, it's quite easy to create a replica. It would be an interesting experiment. Not saying I'm keen on doing that here, but I definitely don't believe that anyone's thoughts should be scoured from the internet/existence and banned forever.

[xise]

Far as I know those things are not mutually exclusive, this forum was designed as a place to gather conversation about LOO and has, at least in the past, been very welcoming to STS information and has managed to integrate it beautifully such as with the hidden hand material and has only recently become reluctant to accept STS information, this to me seems a backlas.

Iirc, this forum has been about STO in it's publically stated policies and guidelines since at least 2014. Maybe 2013. 

I remember this issue being discussed and decided before my last bring4th break which started in mid-2014.

[anagogy]

The words "deplatformed" and "fascist" seem a little dramatic to me, especially considering the actual reach of this forum, but I understand why you feel that way. The thing is, we do have an agenda here as moderators, and that is to try to cultivate an atmosphere of acceptance and service to others. If the three (or four) of us moderators agree that we need to 'deplatform' someone, well, that's what we're here to do, because we're not going to sit by and let our soft and squishy and trusting and beautiful members be treated disrespectfully. As I mentioned before, actual bans are very rare, and the removal of posts isn't very common either. 

I don't think its "dramatic". There are literally people in this thread suggesting we should put new forum members on "probation" until they prove they are worthy to stay here. Or maybe we should enforce that rule about not having a thousand different bring4th accounts (cough).

When I see people intimating any kind of restriction on free speech, I will happily speak out against it, because I think it is downright service to self. Obviously if there is a personal attack, action is of course warranted.

But obviously this forum isn't just about discussing green ray. This would be a very boring place if it was. I mean just look at the sheer number of subject categories. That would be absolutely silly trying to cram each and every one of those topics into "discussing green ray".

Honestly, the reason I like this place is because there isn't a TON of moderation. I just hope it stays that way.

[anagogy]

I find people often call things "hate speech" when they don't want to engage the logic someone is putting forth.

It is easier to just silence people by labeling them, then to ask them to justify their logical axioms.

Kind of like when your arguments are dismissed due to being called a LARPer, or being told that all the womyn here just need to calm down, while having all our valid points ignored. I guess it's convenient to pull that one out when you're clearly losing the argument.

The hypocrisy here is laughable.

I don't know why you think I'm endorsing that behavior. I never said I was. You're making a lot of assumptions here.

[Glow]

The words "deplatformed" and "fascist" seem a little dramatic to me, especially considering the actual reach of this forum, but I understand why you feel that way. The thing is, we do have an agenda here as moderators, and that is to try to cultivate an atmosphere of acceptance and service to others. If the three (or four) of us moderators agree that we need to 'deplatform' someone, well, that's what we're here to do, because we're not going to sit by and let our soft and squishy and trusting and beautiful members be treated disrespectfully. As I mentioned before, actual bans are very rare, and the removal of posts isn't very common either. 

I don't think its "dramatic". There are literally people in this thread suggesting we should put new forum members on "probation" until they prove they are worthy to stay here. Or maybe we should enforce that rule about not having a thousand different bring4th accounts (cough).

When I see people intimating any kind of restriction on free speech, I will happily speak out against it, because I think it is downright service to self.

But obviously this forum isn't just about discussing green ray. This would be a very boring place if it was. I mean just look at the sheer number of subject categories. That would be absolutely silly trying to cram each and every one of those topics into "discussing green ray".

Honestly, the reason I like this place is because there isn't a TON of moderation. I just hope it stays that way.

Anagogy
The forum I participated in that did that was psychedelic forum hardly a gathering place of sts control orientated individuals. Everything from spirituality, philosophy, life and of course “experiences” were discussed in depth but the policy ensured people were there for legitimate reasons of discussion vs trying to bring about drama/catalyst to people, it also ensures people even when they disagreed they treated each other with consideration verses lashing out.

There would be disagreements polar opposite opinions but the atmosphere was one of the most reverent and peaceful I have found online.

Anyways not going to respond to the rest, I have had great discussions with you and always appreciated your imput. I won’t take anything you imply about me personally because it’s not true.

I took what speedforce said personally because obviously I didn’t do as well as I wish I had if he felt hate from me. I certainly have no hate for anyone let alone someone carrying a burden I know I would not want to carry.

Your perception about me though has no basis in reality. No hard feelings on this end we are all allowed to have distortions. In fact I doubt it’s possible not to while in 3D

[anagogy]

Anagogy
The forum I participated in that did that was psychedelic forum hardly a gathering place of sts control orientated individuals. Everything from spirituality, philosophy, life and of course “experiences” were discussed in depth but the policy ensured people were there for legitimate reasons of discussion vs trying to bring about drama/catalyst to people, it also ensures people even when they disagreed they treated each other with consideration verses lashing out.

There would be disagreements polar opposite opinions but the atmosphere was one of the most reverent and peaceful I have found online.

Anyways not going to respond to the rest, I have had great discussions with you and always appreciated your imput. I won’t take anything you imply about me personally because it’s not true.

I took what speedforce said personally because obviously I didn’t do as well as I wish I had if he felt hate from me. I certainly have no hate for anyone let alone someone carrying a burden I know I would not want to carry.

Your perception about me though has no basis in reality. No hard feelings on this end we are all allowed to have distortions. In fact I doubt it’s possible not to while in 3D

I'm not sure why you are assuming that I was referring to you specifically. I was speaking generally, to everyone equally on both sides of the isle, so I'm not sure why you are taking it so personally. I wasn't accusing anyone in particular.

I'm glad you had a good experience on your psychedelic forum. Personally, I've also had experiences with forums that did such probationary requirements and I found it had very negative effect. The forums dwindled in population and eventually discontinued. It is sort of similar to states that impose lots of regulations for doing various things, like starting businesses, or building structures, because they think it will make things "better" or "safer" but all it does is just hurt the creative process which thrives in a environment of freedom (even though freedom necessarily increases the probability of danger).

But hey we're all entitled to our own opinion. Thanks for sharing. Sorry if you thought I was attacking you. Take care.

[Glow]

Anagogy
The forum I participated in that did that was psychedelic forum hardly a gathering place of sts control orientated individuals. Everything from spirituality, philosophy, life and of course “experiences” were discussed in depth but the policy ensured people were there for legitimate reasons of discussion vs trying to bring about drama/catalyst to people, it also ensures people even when they disagreed they treated each other with consideration verses lashing out.

There would be disagreements polar opposite opinions but the atmosphere was one of the most reverent and peaceful I have found online.

Anyways not going to respond to the rest, I have had great discussions with you and always appreciated your imput. I won’t take anything you imply about me personally because it’s not true.

I took what speedforce said personally because obviously I didn’t do as well as I wish I had if he felt hate from me. I certainly have no hate for anyone let alone someone carrying a burden I know I would not want to carry.

Your perception about me though has no basis in reality. No hard feelings on this end we are all allowed to have distortions. In fact I doubt it’s possible not to while in 3D

I'm not sure why you are assuming that I was referring to you specifically. I was speaking generally, to everyone equally on both sides of the isle, so I'm not sure why you are taking it so personally. I wasn't accusing anyone in particular.

I'm glad you had a good experience on your psychedelic forum. Personally, I've also had experiences with forums that did such probationary requirements and I found it had very negative effect. The forums dwindled in population and eventually discontinued. It is sort of similar to states that impose lots of regulations for doing various things, like starting businesses, or building structures, because they think it will make things "better" or "safer" but all it does is just hurt the creative process which thrives in a environment of freedom (even though freedom necessarily increases the probability of danger).

But hey we're all entitled to our own opinion. Thanks for sharing. Sorry if you thought I was attacking you. Take care.

I was the first to say hate speech. I don’t know if it’s just Canada but insisting trans people are mentally ill would be an issue here. A group that has to stand against so much judgment and stigmatization it seems any added hurt would be just cruelty, intended or not. I know it would again be something I would not want to carry in an incarnation.

I also agreed with the new member probationary period before full privileges were granted to posters so seemed I was the focus of at least part of that. I could see how in many cases that could stifle conversation and creativity. In that forum where people genuinely wanted to be vulnerable and exposed and had experienced oneness it ensured the conversation were unstifled and exposing of all the weird parts of self, fear free.

Anyways to future conversation,, as you said all entitled to our experiences and perceptions/opinion. Have a great evening.

[anagogy]

I was the first to say hate speech. I don’t know if it’s just Canada but insisting trans people are mentally ill would be an issue here. A group that has to stand against so much judgment and stigmatization it seems any added hurt would be just cruelty, intended or not. I know it would again be something I would not want to carry in an incarnation.

I think the problem is the stigma with "mental illness".

There isn't the same stigma with "bodily illness".

But basically, the way I see it is mental illness is something that is chronically causing one mental distress. So if a male was born, for example, but felt like they were a woman on the inside, mentally, and that dichotomy was causing them chronic mental distress, I could see how someone could call that particular situation "mental illness".

Then again, if that same person was experiencing no mental distress as a result of that dichotomy, I would say it was not a mental illness. It would just be an attribute of their personality.

I think people get really triggered by the phrase "mental illness", which is unfortunate, because it just means someone is hurting mentally, and they need help getting past some kind of suffering. But every situation is unique.

[Louisabell]

I find people often call things "hate speech" when they don't want to engage the logic someone is putting forth.

It is easier to just silence people by labeling them, then to ask them to justify their logical axioms.

Kind of like when your arguments are dismissed due to being called a LARPer, or being told that all the womyn here just need to calm down, while having all our valid points ignored. I guess it's convenient to pull that one out when you're clearly losing the argument.

The hypocrisy here is laughable.

I don't know why you think I'm endorsing that behavior. I never said I was. You're making a lot of assumptions here.

No I never thought you endorsed this behavior, just thought your point was defunct as this behavior is endemic. It goes by many names, and I just see a lot of bias against the use of the word hatespeech, and I have to wonder if the focus on it is because it serves a politcal agenda.

Free speech applies to everyone, including those that think something is hate speech.

[anagogy]

No I never thought you endorsed this behavior, just thought your point was defunct as this behavior is endemic. It goes by many names, and I just see a lot of bias against the use of the word hatespeech, and I have to wonder if the focus on it is because it serves a politcal agenda.

Free speech applies to everyone, including those that think something is hate speech.

I'm not sure what political agenda you're referring to?

I agree that free speech applies to everyone. It's fine if somebody wants to call something hate speech. I just think if you do that, you should explain why you believe it is hate speech, so the other party can then explain why they think it isn't hate speech. Anyone can say whatever they want, the only problem I have is when people use that to shut down conversation so they don't have to explore a premise being offered. I think we would agree on that point, but I could be mistaken.

[Diana]

I find people often call things "hate speech" when they don't want to engage the logic someone is putting forth.

I think this is an interesting observation. I have personally expanded my understanding and thinking by looking dispassionately at what someone posts in opposition to my own stance, in subjects that give rise to strong feelings.

Silencing people, like some people in this thread are suggesting admins/mods to do just makes the situation worse, and is the true representation of blockage in my opinion and seems to me very fascist. If you don't allow someone to express themselves, and then debate their ideas, you're just stifling their growth (and your own) which is the opposite of truth sharing in my opinion.

When I see people intimating any kind of restriction on free speech, I will happily speak out against it, because I think it is downright service to self. Obviously if there is a personal attack, action is of course warranted.

I am in agreement. Anagogy has been more direct than me in conveying this.

Obviously moderation is there to monitor the guidelines. Beyond that, it's censorship.

Having said that, if someone is just being unreasonable, and I'm not accusing anyone here, you can always just ignore and not engage. People always have to have the last word. I find most moderation just amounts to silencing people because you don't agree with them. It isn't acceptance, it is just controlling the situation. Obviously personal attacks have to be monitored, but as long as someone is just discussing ideas, in my opinion it should be allowed, even if you think they are "negative ideas". Oftentimes, I've seen people on this forum act like they're "nice" but it was obvious they were just using a thin veneer of positivity to disguise their own selfish manipulative tendencies. So the comments were allowed, but I found their ideas quite repugnant and negative in the extreme.

I agree here too. A great example is the "in regards to eating meat" thread which was active for years and the participation rich. It was closed and replaced by "A Friendly Conversation: Exploring Omnivorous vs. Vegetarian Diet" posted by "admin" apparently in an attempt to control how "nice" everyone would be about a very volatile subject. The irony is that there were many posts vilifying vegetarians in the exact passive-agressive way referred to above. I always thought the value of that thread was great, stirring up all kinds of feelings and conversation and exploration and information, and I was actively against closing it.

I am not blaming the moderators here for closing the thread—they did what they felt they had to do. But I do disagree with the decision. I also agree with Anagogy that if this site was only about green ray, or if we all had to act loving as defined by humans, I would be out, for one because I don't communicate that way nor does it interest me. I prefer honesty and truth. And if that honesty brings up things such as ingrained prejudices, great, because then they see the light of day. It encourages transformation and growth.

I am against censorship. I think it would be sometimes difficult to define what is a personal attack. There are obvious examples; but what about when someone lashes back against the original attack? What about the digs coated in sugar?

I get the difficulty of this. It would take a great deal of detachment to decide what violates the guidelines. And one more thing: whatever the owners of this site want to do, that's with them—it's theirs. I almost quit this site after the "in regards to eating meat" thread was closed, and there were others who did, but I find there is still interesting conversation and exploration of ideas, and I am glad to have a place to openly engage in them. 

[Glow]

Perhaps irrelevant but from personal experience my mental illness was caused not only by pain but the most intense part was not being able to be my true self, knowing my true self would not be accepted in society, and more importantly I could not accept myself.

The repression of my known m/b/s self that needed to be free and accepted at least by my self was the most suicide inducing distress. Judgement from outside does not make that easier. I think that is very common in the world.

In cases with homosexuality in the past, and trans people now, the very fact “who they know themselves to be” is called a symptom, deep breath, that is the source of much of their “mental illness”. So saying it’s caused by illness verse trusting they are who they say further compounds the denial of that self.

Two spirited people were not classified by their culture as defective/ill. They were/are known as leaders and healers. Denial of self is very often the reason people stop wanting to live.

Like one part of self saying to the other, let me live or we will die. For this reason, I am perhaps egoicly driven to stop these people from having that said to them.

Anyways I have probably said enough over the last few day. Sorry for prattling on.

[Diana]

The repression of my known m/b/s self that needed to be free and accepted at least by my self was the most suicide inducing distress. Judgement from outside does not make that easier. I think that is very common in the world.

I think it is common. Feeling unconditionally accepted is not common in this world.

Anyways I have probably said enough over the last few day. Sorry for prattling on.

Your input is welcome and important. Nothing to be sorry for.

[anagogy]

Perhaps irrelevant but from personal experience my mental illness was caused not only by pain but the most intense part was not being able to be my true self, knowing my true self would not be accepted in society, and more importantly I could not accept myself.

I would describe what you wrote here as a kind of mental distress (mental pain). Not being able to express who you feel you are is a mentally painful experience.

The repression of my known m/b/s self that needed to be free and accepted at least by my self was the most suicide inducing distress. Judgement from outside does not make that easier. I think that is very common in the world. In cases with homosexuality in the past, and trans people now, the very fact “who they know themselves to be” is called a symptom, deep breath,!that is the source of much of their “mental illness”. So saying it’s caused by illness verse trusting they are who they say further compounds the denial of that self.
Anyways I have probably said enough over the last few day. Sorry for prattling on.

Like I said, I think the problem is the stigma of mental illness. I think any state of mind can be a mental illness if it is causing dysfunction in your life, or chronic distress. I know some people just categorize some things as mental illness because they want to stigmatize it. And I agree that needs to stop. But I think there are a lot of situations that are mental illness and because people don't want to deal with it, they pretend like its normal. Far from being compassionate, it is actually very unloving and destructive.

Like for example, if someone had schizophrenia, would you be doing them a service to placate them and tell them that everything is normal and that they don't need medication? I have a lot of experience with schizophrenia (I'm not schizophrenic, but I've known people that were paranoid schizophrenic), and they can be downright dangerous and violent, and you can't reason with them if it is a severe case. The loving thing to do is get them help, so they don't endanger themselves or others.

But are there cases where schizophrenia isn't a mental illness? Sure. We call them shamans, psychics, and psychonauts. Those people have a similar ability to disengage from the reality you and I are experiencing right now, but the difference is they aren't being drowned by it. They have control over it.

Or if you had someone that sincerely believed they were a cat, would you be helping them by placating their delusion and feeding them raw fish and catnip and having them use a litter box? I would say not.

There are situations where people don't even realize they are suffering, even though they obviously are. Did you know there are people who feel like they're supposed to only have one leg? And they actually try to get doctors to remove one of their legs. And when doctors refuse, they try to do it themselves. Would you be helping them to placate their obvious mental illness by telling they are not mentally ill? I think that would be dangerously irresponsible.

So in regards to transgenderism (because that seems to be the popular topic in this thread for some reason), I do in fact think there are cases where that is a mental illness. I also think that there is a lot of confusion in society today where people think if you subjectively identify with being something, it changes objective reality. This is not the case. For example, this male identifies with being a Filipino woman. I'm going to be honest, despite how "politically incorrect" it is to say this, I think someone like this is severely mentally ill. I don't say that to stigmatize them, I say that because I think their need to identify with such a bizarrely specific category of physicality is rooted in some deep trauma of some kind, or deep lack of acceptance of the body/race they were born into.

But then I've met other transgender people, that I didn't feel were mentally ill, because they were not under the delusion that their subjective identity changes their objective reality of what sex they are, nor were they distressed by it. They knew the difference between subjective and objective truth. Anyway, just sharing some thoughts on the subject. There is no one right answer of course, but it is a complicated topic.

[Minyatur]

For example, this male identifies with being a Filipino woman. I'm going to be honest, despite how "politically incorrect" it is to say this, I think someone like this is severely mentally ill.

The guy sounds very calm and nothing extremist. He even admits that he doesn't think you can actually change your sex or your race, refers to transgenderism as gender dysphoria, that it is a problem and that people making a full transition can't really be happy because if you strive to get so far from where you began are you really happy.

He seems to just say he resonates with those things, like I guess he feels more feminine than masculine and does not really resonate with how he sees the white race and more like how fillipinos are. So I think it's not the best example of a severely ill person.

He sounds like he wouldn't be offended you think he's mentally ill though, just a chill and nice person.

Edit:
(to defend my usage of the masculine in referring to the person, he does say himself that "you are born as you are" and "you can't really change your sex")

On a side note, human life is about being Creator living the delusion of not being the One. Is anyone fully well in this lie of separation? Cut off from the Unity of what we really are? Probably not, but Unity is not an end and instead where all separation begins and is signified. Someone that thinks they are a cat isn't much more deluded than someone that thinks they are a separate individual that's not the rest of everything. The material plain describes everything in our reality, from its very first distortion, as illusion. So maybe, just maybe, actually helping someone feel better is not about shattering what they believe but responding to what led them to cling to that thing, like of lack of being accepted in what they feel for example.

[Glow]

Perhaps irrelevant but from personal experience my mental illness was caused not only by pain but the most intense part was not being able to be my true self, knowing my true self would not be accepted in society, and more importantly I could not accept myself.

I would describe what you wrote here as a kind of mental distress (mental pain). Not being able to express who you feel you are is a mentally painful experience.

The repression of my known m/b/s self that needed to be free and accepted at least by my self was the most suicide inducing distress. Judgement from outside does not make that easier. I think that is very common in the world. In cases with homosexuality in the past, and trans people now, the very fact “who they know themselves to be” is called a symptom, deep breath,!that is the source of much of their “mental illness”. So saying it’s caused by illness verse trusting they are who they say further compounds the denial of that self.
Anyways I have probably said enough over the last few day. Sorry for prattling on.

Like I said, I think the problem is the stigma of mental illness. I think any state of mind can be a mental illness if it is causing dysfunction in your life, or chronic distress. I know some people just categorize some things as mental illness because they want to stigmatize it. And I agree that needs to stop. But I think there are a lot of situations that are mental illness and because people don't want to deal with it, they pretend like its normal. Far from being compassionate, it is actually very unloving and destructive.

Like for example, if someone had schizophrenia, would you be doing them a service to placate them and tell them that everything is normal and that they don't need medication? I have a lot of experience with schizophrenia (I'm not schizophrenic, but I've known people that were paranoid schizophrenic), and they can be downright dangerous and violent, and you can't reason with them if it is a severe case. The loving thing to do is get them help, so they don't endanger themselves or others.

But are there cases where schizophrenia isn't a mental illness? Sure. We call them shamans, psychics, and psychonauts. Those people have a similar ability to disengage from the reality you and I are experiencing right now, but the difference is they aren't being drowned by it. They have control over it.

Or if you had someone that sincerely believed they were a cat, would you be helping them by placating their delusion and feeding them raw fish and catnip and having them use a litter box? I would say not.

There are situations where people don't even realize they are suffering, even though they obviously are. Did you know there are people who feel like they're supposed to only have one leg? And they actually try to get doctors to remove one of their legs. And when doctors refuse, they try to do it themselves. Would you be helping them to placate their obvious mental illness by telling they are not mentally ill? I think that would be dangerously irresponsible.

So in regards to transgenderism (because that seems to be the popular topic in this thread for some reason), I do in fact think there are cases where that is a mental illness. I also think that there is a lot of confusion in society today where people think if you subjectively identify with being something, it changes objective reality. This is not the case. For example, this male identifies with being a Filipino woman. I'm going to be honest, despite how "politically incorrect" it is to say this, I think someone like this is severely mentally ill. I don't say that to stigmatize them, I say that because I think their need to identify with such a bizarrely specific category of physicality is rooted in some deep trauma of some kind, or deep lack of acceptance of the body/race they were born into.

But then I've met other transgender people, that I didn't feel were mentally ill, because they were not under the delusion that their subjective identity changes their objective reality of what sex they are, nor were they distressed by it. They knew the difference between subjective and objective truth. Anyway, just sharing some thoughts on the subject. There is no one right answer of course, but it is a complicated topic.

I’m following you a bit better now. Still you aren’t saying “transgender is mental illness” you are saying it might be in some cases.

That’s different than negating the experience of an entire group down to it definitely being a mental illness vs a personal truth. That is the statement I took issue with earlier in the thread.

As to mental illness being stigmatized, I might be oblivious to that because I legitimately think everyone is a bit crazy and have many conversations with people to that effect, as a result people are very open with me about their struggles, but it may again be Canada is a bit different.

I remember even 20 years ago people calmly talking about being bipolar, everyone around her knows someone intimately that has been treated for anxiety and/or depression, hospitalized even, especially the younger generation they have no fear of talking about their mental health issues, it’s reality.

Schizophrenia is taken less lightly but up here it is spoken about with empathy more than stigmatized against at least in the circles I’m exposed to which is a pretty broad range. However they are mostly educated and more open minded.

One that is horribly stigmatized is borderline personality disorder. I hear these people demonized. Not much compassion for such a difficult and painful experience. I realize it is a scary one. My mother suffered (she seems better now she is older/70) from it and it was very much not pleasant she even tried to kill all 3 of her children but the root is still worthy of empathy verse demonization. That one may take another ten years to be less stigmatized but I have faith once it is better understood it will be easier to manage.

So I do hear what you are saying, and can say in some cases it may be illness but it’s really still not our call to make, or any of our business to diagnose, we cannot fully know anothers’ experience so assuming one knows more about them than they do about themself is in most cases a bit presumptuous.

Still I do get what you are saying.

[Glow]

On a side note, human life is about being Creator living the dellusion of not being the One. Is anyone fully well in this lie of separation? Cut off from the Unity of what we really are? Probably not, but Unity is not an end and instead where all separation begins and is signified. Someone that thinks they are a cat isn't much more delluded than someone that thinks they are a separate individual that's not the rest of everything. The material plain describes everything in our reality, from its very first distortion, as illusion. So maybe, just maybe, actually helping someone feel better is not about shattering what they believe but responding to what led them to cling to that thing, like of lack of being accepted in what they feel for example.

Wow that was incredible. My sense of reality just stretched. I thought I was seeing the entire scene on this topic but you just knocked a wall down and I can see I was not even seeing half. Wow. Thank you for that.

Edited because I was mixing metaphors(even worse). I’m not always the sharpest lightbulb on the couch.

[Foha]

To the student of the balancing process we may suggest that the most stringent honesty be applied. As compassion is perceived it is suggested that, in balancing, this perception be analyzed. It may take many, many essays into compassion before true universal love is the product of the attempted opening and crystallization of this all-important springboard energy center. Thus the student may discover many other components to what may seem to be all-embracing love. Each of these components may be balanced and accepted as part of the self and as transitional material as the entity’s seat of learn/teaching moves ever more fairly into the green ray.

Basically, way too often, I see people encouraging a use of wisdom which, in its full expression, is actually closing the heart chakra. Closing the heart chakra is not wisdom!!! I feel like most people's understanding is that we get to the green ray, and it's just this overflowing mess and wisdom must tame this curse. When I come across this attitude, to me it is a lack of understanding about the green ray, and when I see that, it seems silly to encourage people to move into the blue ray. For me, interpretations of the philosophy which encourage others, whether directly or implied, to close the heart in search of wisdom should always be challenged.

Service to self polarization is about moving into the higher chakras without the firm foundation of the green ray. So for me, encouraging a strong foundation of the green ray is basically the most important part of this philosophy. We are in a veiled and polarized third density, the whole point is to give us a choice, and to confuse us enough that the service to self path looks appealing. This is part of the illusion. The "path of wisdom" is a trap. I think we should all be on the path of compassion, until we are truly ready to move forward into the blue ray. The fact is, this planet is moving from third density to fourth density, which means that we are, as a collective, dealing with the energies of moving from third to fourth, not fourth to fifth. Of course individual entities have different balances and lessons, I'm not arguing that, but what I am arguing is that the average person who is incarnate shouldn't ignore lessons of compassion to favor lessons of wisdom. We must work on unblocking the green ray as individuals to help the collective.

In 4th density, when the veil drops, we will have a group mind. In the group mind, we cannot think things like, "trans people have mental illness" or "women are too weak to protect others" or "that person needs to get out of their victim mentality". There is only harmony available, which means we must let go of the thoughts and actions that bring disharmony. Until our thoughts and feelings are pure enough that others will be able to read them without repulsion, we are not ready for a fourth density social memory complex, and the lessons are of love and acceptance, not wisdom.

Thank you so much, Jade!

I didn't consider or know about this until now. My first reaction is to feel shame-- demonstrating I do not yet fully appreciate this lesson!

Reading this is very synchronized for me right now. This past week I feel is filled with karmic lessons directly relating to the insight you are freely sharing.

I just realized that I've been very motivated to grow to the point I am very hard on myself.
To the point my bar is too high for me to feel safe sharing my opinions to strangers in fear it may offend them. (For example, I might notice a flaw that they are unaware of and feel urged to tell them when I don't know them very well.)

Case in point: I have recently lashed out after a bad week to a new friend in IM on this very forum. Simply because I see flaws in a very negative way. A close friend just now helped me notice that polarity relates in this area as well! She mentioned her fiance is worried that since she drastically changed when he pointed out a flaw in the beginning of their relationship -- he gets nervous she might drastically change when she is so hard on herself and says things like "I really need to change that about myself."

I had an epiphany regarding polarity and hermetic magnetism being an aspect of everything. Negative paths tend to focus more on influence/power first, and struggle to achieve compassion and wisdom. (Backstabbing, political espionage, and subservient tactics -- they can help you climb a ladder very quickly.) However, the crimes catch up to them, and their negative way of doing things tend to make their influence and power less sustainable. Here, too, I am experiencing something similar. Being so earnest and driven to grow, I lose sight of the point of living. It's fine to take a hard look at myself, but it's not right to shame myself and disown my flaws. And even worse to cast that kind of negative framing onto another! Only acceptance of my and others' flaws can I naturally become my true self and absolve my distortions.

So thank you for sharing. I've always valued meaningful conversations -- and often felt the more meaningful conversations were typically the most uncomfortable for a "good reason". I see now how I was mistaken for many reasons and missed the mark.

I feel all conversations are important, and everything is much more important than I can truly understand. I've always felt everyone is valid in their own way, and it would take a lifetime living in their shoes to understand why. I've received amazing resolve in feeling vindicated for this very reason -- and may have mistaken this justifying myself being hard on myself in a very negative way!

I apologize if I've lashed out to anyone here without realizing it. I am going to really reflect on this!

[Foha]

My friend, I hope you find some peace.

I will when I stop posting here. When the LARP'ers run free and those who do not understand take over then you will miss what I brought onto the table.

Your constant claims of greatness do not impress me, and your continued insistence that you are superior to others, or beyond others, undermines the claim that you’ve gained understanding.

That is a distortion to what my real intent was. I told you these things because this is how I work. I work using truth, and in using truth, in going up against people who do not speak the truth, can there really be a true understanding, an everlasting change for the better.

It’s easy to say you’re a 5D Wanderer, but when your words and behavior run counter to the understanding a fifth density entity should have, it’s difficult to take you seriously.

How do you know what a 5th density entity is supposed to be like or not be like? 5th density aside, I am human, just like you. It is not my job to be my true 5th density self. It is my job to be ME, MYSELF because in being me, I am also playing out my true self's pre-incarnative decisions, or plan. There is a purpose for this and for everything that I do. I'm sorry to tell you that all the people I know in my life have been better off with me in it then me without it. That's the impact I've had on people.

while demanding others recognize their greatness.

I have not done so and you cannot quote me to that effect. You recognize greatness because that's what it is. I'm proud of my accomplishments. Can you walk up to Billy Ray Cyrus and tell him the same thing you told me? Would he be "demanding" of his greatness just because he's proud of his accomplishments?

I totally relate to you right now.

I had a serious problem with many spiritual parables that follow a particular formula where a spiritual master tests an immature person.
The formula usually goes something like:

Master asks favor of immature person that is a complete stranger. Immature person surprises spiritual master by being humble and/or compassionate. Master rewards immature person with miraculous ability!!
The master then lets the immature person live out his/her life letting that miracle get to his/her head. Master forewarns never to use it incorrectly.
Immature person lets ability get to his/her head. The ability enables many undesirable qualities of the person, and he mistakes it for authority over mundane matters by using it like a deus-ex-machina!
The master then crosses paths and severely punishes the immature person for making the mistakes he so strongly warned against. Often this punishment can be worse than death itself.

I always hated spiritual masters in this silly formula. Now I see that it's probably just a symptom of being passed down and re-told so many times to lend to dramatic effect.
I feel now that the moral of the story is more important than the details, much like physical events matter less than their meaning.

To me, my problems with this formula were that:
- He's a spiritual master and cannot foresee his foolish decision to give an immature person a miraculous ability? How does he feel authority to punish what should have been obvious?
- The immature person is completely valid in every stance and misunderstanding he/she has at that moment. If the spiritual master were to wear the "incarnated mask" of that individual and take every step and live in his/her shoes, I'm sure he'd still make similar flaws and be unequipped to pass a silly test like that!
- Why isn't the master held responsible for gaslighting a clearly immature person? Did the spiritual master simply find it fun to plan this entire chain of events so he can say "I told you so"?

It's all a matter of perspective! And it is truly folly for even a spiritual master to scorn a student, disciple, and especially a stranger for nearly any assumption simply because if that spiritual master is incarnated, they cannot know how it is to be that person. If the master did, it would be abundantly clear how valid the misunderstandings and flaws are. I have always felt very vindictive about this. I have caused a lot of suffering and pain by lashing out to uphold this strong feeling of my own. I have always felt justified by this strong sense of justice, only to recently realize how distorted my quest was!

And here I can see you doing something similar. You are completely valid in your stance!
And everything you are saying is true.

I would wager everyone and everything works in truth and light. Distortions are distortions of light -- how can they be composed of darkness? Darkness is merely a lack of light and truth.

You did do great things. I feel you are valid in your stance and even your approach. It is not easy to stand your ground and insist what you know to be the truth. You achieved your current understanding of Truth through many tribulations and trials and experiences! It is truly admirable of you, and I say that quite honestly!!

I know because I have struggled to find my voice! Even on this forum I have (until recently) held my 'tongue' and preferred not to share my thoughts. I sensed I was petty or could be proven wrong. I have learned quite frequently that I never truly know 100%. So often even miraculous things have shown me my folly. The universe has an interesting sense of humor!

I hope I noticed how you feel. You have every right to feel that way. You are justified in your own way.
And so are the people you are arguing with! I feel this does have a lot of potential for spiritual growth from deep introspection on both sides.

I wish you peace!

[Foha]

So threatening people with demonic attack is cool here?

There's no such thing as demons. As someone who follows Law of One you should know this.

And no, I'm not exaggerating, spirtual powers that deal out revenge are NOT STO, and everyone here knows it.

I'm not doing anything. It's karma that acts on you. You know what karma is?

Not saying anything at all is much like saying something.

In the bible I was often puzzled by the firm suggestion to pray in silence, but also to hide the fact we prayed.

Perhaps this is to avoid people judging each other for how they pray, and/or how often, and to who/what.

[Foha]

Well if you do a word search for demons in the LOO then nothing comes up, but there are plenty of results for crusaders... If you call a rose by any other name...

https://www.llresearch.org/transcripts/i..._1207.aspx

Questioner: Is there also one known in the Bible as Satan that also lives?

There is, my brother, an entity in people’s hearts known as Satan to them. However, this entity is part of the illusion of your density. The reality or seeming reality of evil is as natural to those who dwell in your polarized density as the darkness.

There is no being known as Satan on your physical plane nor has there ever been. However, the vibrational principle from which this concept received its ancient name is a thought form which is a reality of your illusion. We wish to distinguish this from the reality of the one known as Jesus or, as we know him, Amira, who is an entity who lives and dwells in love. He is a thought form only to those who do not realize that he is a real being.

The one known as Satan is merely the shadow of evil thoughts. Given fear enough, evil thoughts can do harm, can cause fear and pain and anguish. This power is given to the Satanic principle only through the fear of the one who is feeling the difficulty.

Thank you for reminding me about my Karma, I will face my Karma with all the courage and self-ownership that I can muster.

Good luck then.

You really think you're going to win this argument with semantics? I never said anything about Satan. And before you question the demonic nature of 4th density and above crusaders, listen and learn:

55.4 ▶ Questioner: Am I to understand then— just the fact that the third-density entity on this planet, just the fact that he calls or bids an Orion Crusader is a polarizing type of action that affects both entities?

Ra: I am Ra. This is incorrect. The calling mechanism is not congruent in the slightest degree with the bidding mechanism. In the calling, the entity which calls is a suppliant neophyte asking for aid in negative understanding, if you may excuse this misnomer. The Orion response increases its negative polarity as it is disseminating the negative philosophy, thereby enslaving or bidding the entity calling.

There are instances, however, when the contact becomes a contest which is prototypical of negativity. In this contest, the caller will attempt, not to ask for aid, but to demand results. Since the third-density negatively oriented harvestable entity has at its disposal an incarnative experiential nexus and since Orion Crusaders are, in a great extent, bound by the first distortion in order to progress, the Orion entity is vulnerable to such bidding if properly done. In this case, the third-density entity becomes master and the Orion Crusader becomes entrapped and can be bid. This is rare. However, when it has occurred, the Orion entity or social memory complex involved has experienced loss of negative polarity in proportion to the strength of the bidding third-density entity.

Even Jesus calls one of his disciples Satan.
"Get behind me, Satan!"

This word/name is very much like the word 'sin', which is now meaning something entirely different.

Sin means to miss the mark. It is not an unforgivable mistake. It is a mistake made in the past and as such cannot be rendered flawless. Such is the current understanding of Physics and time paradoxes.
Sin used to be seen as a hallmark for us to take note on our flaws.
To see sin is to notice a flaw -- and can be used as a litmus for learning lessons in "shooting arrows".

Satan means adversary.

This is a truly interesting thread because there is so much to be gained. But this also means there are so many difficult lessons that require an uncomfortable introspection. I am no exception.