Session 89 - Two Negatively Polarizing Wanderers

[Glow]

I think there is room for both types of service. Who knows, maybe redchartreuse has spiritual contract agreements with these people, with pre-incarnation conversations going something like:
"Hey would you mind bumping into me sometime down there and give me one if those zen slaps because I'm struggling with this lesson, it's been dragging on for a few life-times and I got to find a way to get out of this funk."
"OK, but how direct do you want me to be?"
"Oh be as direct as you can be".
"Are you sure? I mean things get pretty tough down there, remember?"
"Don't worry, I need some real tough love on this one".

Yes!! I mean... not exactly but yes I feel like you are understanding what I have been trying to say.

So maybe the zen slap is a specialty of service. If so, I would recommend to not expect any specific result. Also be prepared to have anger directed at yourself. Call it an occupational hazard.

Right.  Totally.  Like I said, usually nothing happens.  Sometimes something happens.  And also, understand this has become more toned down and refined over the past decade... year... month... week.

It's the so-called "hazard" part that I'm curious about.  Which is why I was making this thread about the negatively polarizing wanderers.  It's not so much that I am "worried" about it as that I am curious to know.

And even this... is this something I "need" to do?  I suppose, probably not.  It could be just another layer of thought control around "spiritual missions" and identity, in general.  I will need to challenge this idea more deeply, for sure.

Having said that, while most spiritual transformations come with some insight, the information contained within is not that hard to come by. Instead the main difference I see between those that are growing and those that are asleep is motivation. When I think of those types of catalyst that have given me the fuel to want to be a better version of myself, I think of the various encounters in my life where friends, service providers and even complete strangers showed me an inordinate amount of kindness and respect. Maybe it's a certain ethic they uphold, a gentle touch or even just a really sincere loving smile, and you are reminded, oh I have worth, oh there are people out there who care, oh there are pockets of heaven here on Earth what can I do to join?

I think you are pretty right on here, and yet there is another aspect to the situation that I perceive.  Please understand, I don't require everybody to share the same perspective.  I'm not saying everybody else must see it this way.  Or that there is no higher perspective to be found.

At times, it feels for me like this,

"How goes the birthing on earth?"
"Overall fine, but the humans seem to be really struggling."
"Have they put out another Call?"
"Yes, well they have been Calling near continuously for quite some time now."
*frown*  "Did you administer the lovingkindness?"
"Yes, we did administer the lovingkindness as you suggested.  However it appears to be without the full effect."
*raise eyebrow* "But... how can this be?"
"We are not quite sure, Captain, but it appears to have something to do with "the ones known as Kardashian."
"Oh?  Them again?  I thought you had told me we had succeeded in neutralizing their effects."
"Yes, well we did... at that time.  But they appear to have evolved their own counterneutralization campaign."
*eyes widen*  "But you musn't mean...?"
"Yes, I'm afraid so, Captain."
"And the sinkhole, has it...?"
"Yes, I am afraid it has widened considerably."
"Is it a supervirus...?  No... don't tell me they've learned how to meld a computer virus with a human one already..?  Oh Good God in heaven no..."
*blinks*
"No, Captain.  It is not a cryptoretrovirus. It is something... much more... original"
*aghast* "Original?! You must tell me what it is this instant!"
"It is a... new fragrance."
*blinks*
"Yes, that is right.  A fragrance.  They are going to literally call it "lovingkindness"... no we are not making this up.  I mean, yes we ARE making this up... but you know... anyway they are going for the full sweep here, the Grand Co-Opt."
"But will it be..."
"Oh yes.  It will be 100% certified cruelty-free, gluten-free, PCB-free, kosher, vegan, halal., dolphin-safe, GMO-free, certified fair-trade, organic, and "all natural".. yup all of them.  It's gonna retail for $10K a bottle.  No I s*** you not, pardon my French."
"10K?! All of them?"
"Yes, all of them.  $10K.  Well that is full retail price.  They are going to have an online sale of commemorative "Trinity Packs" for 3 payments of $3333, which will be in 4D HD Hi-Di synchrony with a live release event at the ball drop in NYC for New Years' 2020.  It is going to spray down all over the whole crowd, while tiny UFO-themed drones drop free pendants to people in the crowd.  All streamed live in 16K "zombiecast."
"I see." *furtively glances around*
"I know.  And they're even going to color it emerald green and ship it as pyramid-shaped perfume nanodispenser, with a camera for a capstone, that will be worn as a pendant around the neck."
*silence*
"And what about the connectivity features... don't tell me."
"Yes, I'm afraid it is the worst case scenario.  They are going to call it "Unity/ConneXt" and it will feature NFC connectivity only.  They are going to make a big tadoo about how people will need to physically bring their hearts together in order to share photos."
*drops the line*
"Hello?  Are you there...?"
*** END SCENE ***

First, I think we all have some parts of our actions that are selfish or potentially negatively polarizing. Negative is part of the dance with positive, we all carry some so maybe this potentially negative polarizing urge to compel others to change now because you want them to could be required actions that while of a controlling nature could eventually bring light.

I bugged you with the word judgement but there is god reason. Karma is erased with forgiveness, judge not lest the be judged. So first maybe do not judge yourself for wanting to urge people forward. Is it going to be well received? maybe, maybe not. Either they will grow or you will. Maybe both so no need to wrestle with it so much. Just try to be compassionate to self and other and I do not think you can go to far wrong.

Keep an eye that your distortion to control these peoples choice to sleep just doesn't snowball or polarize further into an exploration into the dynamic of power over others. That is how polarity works building a charge. Just be mindful of how you are developing.


I do agree with Loiseabell though, none of my inspiring moments came from another's urging or judgement it came from small seeds of love that nourished my own light.

I will also say I think "personally" your assessment that love isn't enough is perhaps more accurate to see it as we are not loving enough. If we all embraced each other to a level we are not yet capable. Seeing all as the beloved would anyone go hungry, be lonely, cold, scared, in danger, impoverished or abused?

Would we be selfishly hording resources, in fear of lack and pushing people away to protect what is ours? No if we had more love all would awaken because the veil would be gone.

I appreciate you urgency, I want the veil to lift to and all to be loved and cared for. For all to see their own divinity and each others.
I get it completely, I just also know how much pain so many are in, they literally are not strong enough to move out of the sleep state, there is so much pain to face, so I in compassion am glad they can rest a bit and gather the resources they need.

But who knows anything anyways. Be well.

[Tae]

*frown*  "Did you administer the lovingkindness?"
"Yes, we did administer the lovingkindness as you suggested.  However it appears to be without the full effect."
*raise eyebrow* "But... how can this be?"

Wow.

Priceless.

[redchartreuse]

When I think of those types of catalyst that have given me the fuel to want to be a better version of myself, I think of the various encounters in my life where friends, service providers and even complete strangers showed me an inordinate amount of kindness and respect.

Would you be willing to share a specific story of this?  One where another's demonstration of lovingkindness really catalyzed you to take your life in a different direction?

[redchartreuse]

I do agree with Loiseabell though, none of my inspiring moments came from another's urging or judgement it came from small seeds of love that nourished my own light.

Same question to you...Would you be willing to share a specific story of this?  One where another's demonstration of lovingkindness really catalyzed you to take your life in a different direction?

[Minyatur]

Thought this quote might prove insightful in why acceptance is the only path.

18.5 ▶ Questioner: Thank you. I have a question here from Jim that I will read verbatim: “Much of the mystic tradition of seeking on Earth holds that belief that the individual self must be erased or obliterated and the material world ignored for an entity to reach ‘nirvana,’ as it’s called, or enlightenment. What is the proper role of the individual self and its worldly activities in aiding an entity to grow more into the Law of One?”

Ra: I am Ra. The proper role of the entity is in this density to experience all things desired, to then analyze, understand, and accept these experiences, distilling from them the love/light within them. Nothing shall be overcome. That which is not needed falls away.

The orientation develops due to analysis of desire. These desires become more and more distorted towards conscious application of love/light as the entity furnishes itself with distilled experience. We have found it to
be inappropriate in the extreme to encourage the overcoming of any desires, except to suggest the imagination rather than the carrying out in the physical plane, as you call it, of those desires not consonant with the Law of One; this preserving the primal distortion of free will.

The reason it is unwise to overcome is that overcoming is an unbalanced action creating difficulties in balancing in the time/space continuum. Overcoming thus creates the further environment for holding onto that which apparently has been overcome.

All things are acceptable in the proper time for each entity, and in experiencing, in understanding, in accepting, in then sharing with other-selves, the appropriate description shall be moving away from distortions of one kind to distortions of another which may be more consonant with the Law of One.

It is, shall we say, a shortcut to simply ignore or overcome any desire. It must instead be understood and accepted. This takes patience and experience which can be analyzed with care, with compassion for self and for other-self.

It makes more sense in light that no beings are separate from you and that you are in truth the One Creator, then growth is tied to realizing Oneness because the One is all there is.

Negative love, that is founded in control rather than acceptance, creates a further need for healing. The only mean to heal self and other-self is acceptance and forgiveness, rejection disallows the ability to walk from where one is at and this is what the quote touches about, how it creates a further need for an environment to distill what still needs to be distilled and accepted. Control is a mean to avoid healing, by forcing one's distortions unto another rather than untying one's own nodes that block one's love from moving to one's heart.

[redchartreuse]

judge not lest the be judged.

1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged.

2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?

4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?

5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

6 “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

I tend to think the teaching is more nuanced than you propose.

[redchartreuse]

Thought this quote might prove insightful in why acceptance is the only path.

18.5 ▶ Questioner: Thank you. I have a question here from Jim that I will read verbatim: “Much of the mystic tradition of seeking on Earth holds that belief that the individual self must be erased or obliterated and the material world ignored for an entity to reach ‘nirvana,’ as it’s called, or enlightenment. What is the proper role of the individual self and its worldly activities in aiding an entity to grow more into the Law of One?”

Ra: I am Ra. The proper role of the entity is in this density to experience all things desired, to then analyze, understand, and accept these experiences, distilling from them the love/light within them. Nothing shall be overcome. That which is not needed falls away.

The orientation develops due to analysis of desire. These desires become more and more distorted towards conscious application of love/light as the entity furnishes itself with distilled experience. We have found it to
be inappropriate in the extreme to encourage the overcoming of any desires, except to suggest the imagination rather than the carrying out in the physical plane, as you call it, of those desires not consonant with the Law of One; this preserving the primal distortion of free will.

The reason it is unwise to overcome is that overcoming is an unbalanced action creating difficulties in balancing in the time/space continuum. Overcoming thus creates the further environment for holding onto that which apparently has been overcome.

All things are acceptable in the proper time for each entity, and in experiencing, in understanding, in accepting, in then sharing with other-selves, the appropriate description shall be moving away from distortions of one kind to distortions of another which may be more consonant with the Law of One.

It is, shall we say, a shortcut to simply ignore or overcome any desire. It must instead be understood and accepted. This takes patience and experience which can be analyzed with care, with compassion for self and for other-self.

It makes more sense in light that no beings are separate from you and that you are in truth the One Creator, then growth is tied to realizing Oneness because the One is all there is.

Negative love, that is founded in control rather than acceptance, creates a further need for healing. The only mean to heal self and other-self is acceptance and forgiveness, rejection disallows the ability to walk from where one is at and this is what the quote touches about, how it creates a further need for an environment to distill what still needs to be distilled and accepted. Control is a mean to avoid healing, by forcing one's distortions unto another rather than untying one's own nodes that block one's love from moving to one's heart.

Well this one of my deepest desires... to be present at the moment when an entity awakens from spiritual slumber. Shall I refrain from attempting to ignore or overcome it? Yes? Then... what shall I do instead?

Seems kind of ironic/hypocritical how many have responded here out of a seeming "judgment" that I am doing something "wrong" and seeking to "control" my actions with their words.

You would think I had said that I run around public like a madman, putting guns to people's heads and demanding they awaken upon my command.

[flofrog]

You have not redcharteuse

[redchartreuse]

You have not redcharteuse

No, I have not, indeed!

I wonder, is this where we of the "spiritual community" have come to..?  Where calling out to try and stop a stranger from stepping out in front of a speeding train is perhaps "taboo" because we don't want to "judge" their actions, and besides, they never "asked" us to help keep them safe?

Seriously, I want to understand this.  Or at least, if that is not possible, to try and understand.

Do you know what I think?  I think each and every person who is in this thread can relate to somebody they know personally... somebody who they love and care very deeply about... who is spiritually asleep and appears to be quite beyond any hope of awakening.  Who has not responded to "the lovingkindness" among a thousand different attempts at awakening.

I think we are shocked and horrified by this.  And I think it is all too easy to retreat back into our caves and meditate.  Oh sure- perhaps we plaster the walls with some nice sounding spiritual quips and spread around inspirational picture memes on Instagram to stay "connected".

We take spiritual philosophy, and twiddle it down to the least common denominator.  Slap a "Coexist" bumper sticker on the back of our Land Rover and call it a day.  I'm just saying I can see why this is an uncomfortable topic.  Which is exactly why I believe it is worth our deeper consideration.

[Minyatur]

Well this one of my deepest desires... to be present at the moment when an entity awakens from spiritual slumber.  Shall I refrain from attempting to ignore or overcome it?  Yes?  Then... what shall I do instead?

Seems kind of ironic/hypocritical how many have responded here out of a seeming "judgment" that I am doing something "wrong" and seeking to "control" my actions with their words.

You would think I had said that I run around public like a madman, putting guns to people's heads and demanding they awaken upon my command.  

I don't feel jugment for you and instead attempt to point out the paradox I see in your queries.

While you say you want to awaken others from slumber, I think it is your own self that you want to help out of slumber. Because you do not understand this density, its purpose and how it works, why people are in the circumstances they are and make the choices that they make. This confusion hurts you because you do not understand and because you do not know how to resolve this hurting you see a way out in everyone awakening and changing and in that you would find to be well. A bit like how the two negatively polarizing wanderers, lost in the slumber of confusion, became the opposite of what they wanted to be and offer.

Acceptance is not something that will make me think more or less highly of you, it is something that liberates you from non-acceptance, which is a state of disharmony that is a dead end in itself.

I really don't have anything against awakening, as while sleep is the literal context and purpose of this density that offers the quality experience we enjoy in both joys and sorrows, awakening remains the most magic and beautiful process in which the One comes to remember Itself.

It is well to be there for another to awaken from slumber, it is simply more harmonious and effective to do it through patience and good will. Let's say that the energy in your words can water another' soul, do you want to offer remarks energized with frustration or something a tad more clean? Not that frustration can't make a good catalyst, just that it also needs to be recognized as originating from the self.

[redchartreuse]

I don't feel jugment for you and instead attempt to point out the paradox I see in your queries.

Yes, this exactly!  Which is why I put it in quotes.  You are attempting to point out the paradox you see in my queries.  I assuming you wish to do this for my benefit, and to help move me closer to my previously stated goal of understanding.  Yes?

100% is what I am talking about.  You see- in reality- no matter how it may "appear" to be according to my subjective opinion- at the end of the day it is *I* who would be judging you to be "judgmental" when all you did was point out a paradox.

If I now went off about how dare you judge me- and this and that- what would that REALLY say about me?  And what would that REALLY say about you?

Or how about if I go off on a full-blown analysis of telling YOU how YOU FEEL, and claiming that your words carried malice toward me, even if you did not actually wish me ill?

Everybody knows the answer to this.  Oh sure, they may sit there on the sidelines watching silently out of fear, or "politeness" or concern for putting their polarity at risk.

But we all would know, wouldn't we?  The only reason I would accuse YOU of being "judgmental" for pointing out a paradox you see in ME is because... deep down I know that you are right.  But for me to admit that would mean I have to give up... something... some benefit I am getting from this.

Do you see?  "Pointing out a paradox" is no different from what I called a "zen slap."  It really isn't.  Maybe... slap was poor choice of words as people have apparently had very large emotional reactions to it.

But we are all adults here, right?  I think we are all capable of speaking to the point, and looking past the surface of communication style.  Yes?

everyone awakening and changing and in that you would find to be well.

No.  That is not it, which I have mentioned previously.  This is coming from somewhere else, either your own internal bias or repeating what you seen in others.

I don't require "everyone" to awaken and "change."  

Firstly, I am not asking anybody to "change".  I am inviting them to take up the path of growth they have previously chosen, and this is what I am calling "awakening." It is awakening to one's spiritual purpose, which at the bare minimum, is growth and evolution.  It doesn't mean I have any idea what that is.  Or how they should go about it.

I don't even know if any given moment is the "right time"  all I know is I am there/then in THAT moment when an opportunity arises.

Secondly, the goal isn't everybody.  It is one person at a time.

I never said everybody.  And I never said I expected it to work all the time, in fact, I said it doesn't work most of the time.  

But sometimes it makes a difference... to that one.  And then they thank me.

This is what I said, but few appear to be responding to that...?

Acceptance is not something that will make me think more or less highly of you, it is something that liberates you from non-acceptance, which is a state of disharmony that is a dead end in itself.

Acceptance is not a two-dimensional concept.  It is not either/or.  Acceptance can occur at some levels, and not at other levels.  At certain times, and not at other times.  It is not so cut and dried.

Let's say that the energy in your words can water another' soul, do you want to offer remarks energized with frustration or something a tad more clean? Not that frustration can't make a good catalyst, just that it also needs to be recognized as originating from the self.

I see where you are going, though I must tell you that I tend to think of this in terms of effective or not effective.  Remarks are as they are, with all the appurtenant emotional tinges incumbent upon me being in human form.  I do not claim to have achieved such a level of emotional Mastery so as to be able to veil my feelings, nor would I consider it to be very wise to do so.

Veiled feelings... this is a big reason why people sleep, I think.  They don't believe themselves capable of bearing the truth of how other human beings truly feel toward them.

You know... the ones who couldn't care less about their well-being unless it earns them an extra buck.  Or the ones actually consciously acting to make them into willing slaves.

No, we are too busy becoming outraged at others who are "judging us" for behaving outrageously.    If only those a******* would just come to "love and accept us as we are" then we could really get this "love and peace" show on the road!  

[flofrog]

I dont know if I am wrong or not, but I think that when we are becoming outraged to be "judged," it might be just because around us the world has been pretty chaotic and suddenly one comment feels like the drop, which brings us some outrage at feeling "judged."

I think humans are very courageous, even those who apparently might sleep because, life is deep in sorrow and joy for everyone. No one is really completely spared. This being said, I see that when I was young I was much less eager to grab the incoming catalyst

Then when it comes back to you like the third time you get it. But being young and brainless in nice because you do throw yourself in catalysts sometimes too, which might necessarily not have happened to you at that time !! lol

[Glow]

judge not lest the be judged.

1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged.

2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?

4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?

5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

6 “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

I tend to think the teaching is more nuanced than you propose.

Not sure why you assume I missed how it works. I didn’t figure you needed spoon feeding so I made a brief reference. Still my point stands.

Also do not know why you would assume I judged you, I pretty clearly told you not to judge even yourself. If you are seeing judgement in my comment it isn’t coming from me, so where is it coming from?

I had added a section to my earlier reply about parts of me that would be considered STS that I fully embraced and accepted as something not to suppress. My intention was to show my complete NONJUDGMENT of you. I deleted it after as I felt it just seemed I selfishly was somehow making the thread about me. perhaps that selfishness(I love sharing and connecting) would have helped you see I really am not judging you at all. So I should have overshared apparently l.

You brought up a topic, we are replying, just because we are on opposite sides of an opinion doesn’t denote condemnation of you or yours. If anything those preaching acceptance quite obviously by default would be accepting of your distortions being exactly as they are supposed to be at this time too.

I mean it truely and I know the beings here well enough to know they also are not judging your desire, just entering into a discussion you started by asking for oppinions.

I can tell my opinion has been shared enough on this topic so I will refrain but I hope you don’t have to wrestle with this desire to long. It’s not that big a deal.

Oh and I could give you a million kindnesses that have been bestowed upon me. I spent a lot of my youth after extreme child abuse in depression and suicidal. The love saved me, even a drop here if a drop there. Fuel for the soul. I survived just because little drops of love kept me alive till I could get a bigger dose I needed to awaken.

The biggest two catylist in my life that triggered my two awakenings were experiences of boundless love shared. First at 17 by a born again Christian lady. She was likely the first person to ever love me unconditionally.

It changed my life and I wept deeply at feeling love. It changed me over night and for the next nearly two decades.

I say two decades because that is when I had my second experience in my life of unconditional love. This time it was mutual I could now do it too, and the other suddenly could also. It ruined us both for several years. It lights up everything inside you and makes you look.

It starts a fire that slowly burns all you once were. Now 7 years later the love still is breaking me down and rebuilding me, awakening me further as the light shines on every part of me as it goes. It all started with love.

Thankfully I have helped lots of people as a result by giving them moments of unconditional love. Have they changed drastically fully awakening, no but the fire has begun they keep coming back knowing they can always count on being accepted and loved whenever they need it. They slowly open to the place in themselves that loves too.

Anyways enough blabbing from me, whatever you decide or do about this it isn’t likely make or break.

[Minyatur]

Do you see?  "Pointing out a paradox" is no different from what I called a "zen slap."  It really isn't.  Maybe... slap was poor choice of words as people have apparently had very large emotional reactions to it.

But we are all adults here, right?  I think we are all capable of speaking to the point, and looking past the surface of communication style.  Yes?

I guess it always depends on the context. Because of your query in association to free will, I may have assumed a kind of unasked help in knowledge it is unwanted.  

Firstly, I am not asking anybody to "change".  I am inviting them to take up the path of growth they have previously chosen, and this is what I am calling "awakening." It is awakening to one's spiritual purpose, which at the bare minimum, is growth and evolution.  It doesn't mean I have any idea what that is.  Or how they should go about it.

Well here you see, I think the sleeping is what offers rapid growth, that this is why 3D forges a soul unlike any following density.

There's this quote that touches this:

50.7 ▶ Questioner: Thank you. Can you expand on the concept which is this: that it is necessary for an entity to, during incarnation in the physical as we call it, become polarized or interact properly with other entities and why this isn’t possible in between incarnations when he is aware of what he wants to do, but why must he come into an incarnation and lose memory, conscious memory of what he wants to do and then act in a way that he hopes to act? Could you expand on that please?

Ra: I am Ra. Let us give the example of the man who sees all the poker hands. He then knows the game. It is but child’s play to gamble, for it is no risk. The other hands are known. The possibilities are known and the hand will be played correctly but with no interest.

In time/space and in the true-color green density, the hands of all are open to the eye. The thoughts, the feelings, the troubles, all these may be seen. There is no deception and no desire for deception. Thus much may be accomplished in harmony but the mind/body/spirit gains little polarity from this interaction.

Let us re-examine this metaphor and multiply it into the longest poker game you can imagine, a lifetime. The cards are love, dislike, limitation, unhappiness, pleasure, etc. They are dealt and re-dealt and re-dealt continuously. You may, during this incarnation begin — and we stress begin — to know your own cards. You may begin to find the love within you. You may begin to balance your pleasure, your limitations, etc. However, your only indication of other-selves’ cards is to look into the eyes.

You cannot remember your hand, their hands, perhaps even the rules of this game. This game can only be won by those who lose their cards in the melting influence of love; can only be won by those who lay their pleasures, their limitations, their all upon the table face up and say inwardly: “All, all of you players, each other-self, whatever your hand, I love you.” This is the game: to know, to accept, to forgive, to balance, and to open the self in love. This cannot be done without the forgetting, for it would carry no weight in the life of the mind/body/spirit beingness totality.

I don't even know if any given moment is the "right time"  all I know is I am there/then in THAT moment when an opportunity arises.

Secondly, the goal isn't everybody.  It is one person at a time.

I never said everybody.  And I never said I expected it to work all the time, in fact, I said it doesn't work most of the time.  

But sometimes it makes a difference... to that one.  And then they thank me.

This is what I said, but few appear to be responding to that...?

I may have taken into account your 'spiritual sleepers' thread as you having an issue more at large.

It doesn't sound any bad as you are saying it here, without any distortion none could play their own role either. We are in a dance and that surely is well.

Acceptance is not a two-dimensional concept.  It is not either/or.  Acceptance can occur at some levels, and not at other levels.  At certain times, and not at other times.  It is not so cut and dried.

I think there are infinite things that require acceptance, but that they will all be met in time.

Let's say that the energy in your words can water another' soul, do you want to offer remarks energized with frustration or something a tad more clean? Not that frustration can't make a good catalyst, just that it also needs to be recognized as originating from the self.

I see where you are going, though I must tell you that I tend to think of this in terms of effective or not effective.  Remarks are as they are, with all the appurtenant emotional tinges incumbent upon me being in human form.  I do not claim to have achieved such a level of emotional Mastery so as to be able to veil my feelings, nor would I consider it to be very wise to do so.

Veiled feelings... this is a big reason why people sleep, I think.  They don't believe themselves capable of bearing the truth of how other human beings truly feel toward them.

You know... the ones who couldn't care less about their well-being unless it earns them an extra buck.  Or the ones actually consciously acting to make them into willing slaves.

No, we are too busy becoming outraged at others who are "judging us" for behaving outrageously.    If only those a******* would just come to "love and accept us as we are" then we could really get this "love and peace" show on the road!  

The quote I gave on overcoming was exactly about effectiveness. I think when it says "We have found it to be inappropriate in the extreme to encourage the overcoming of any desires" or how they say "the reason it is unwise to overcome", it is trying to bring a focus upon effectiveness in doing what you want to do. I see it like a tip from a wider point of view, one that sees more across time the causes and effects of things.

[redchartreuse]

Not sure why you assume I missed how it works. I didn’t figure you needed spoon feeding so I made a brief reference. Still my point stands.

I may have misunderstood you, must it seemed to me you were not considering the part about dogs and pigs.

It takes judgment to know who the dogs and pigs of this tiny parable.  It takes discernment.

Yes, judge not the soul of another to be eternally condemned to hell.  Judge them not to be evil, even though they may appear to do evil acts.

Sure, but that's not what we are talking about here.  We are talking about:  "HEY PAL!  LOOKS LIKE YOU'RE PASSED OUT OVER THERE!  **ZEN SLAP** YOU ALRIGHT?  NEED SOME HELP?"

... and then the drunk guy accuses you of being "judgmental" for simply observing him to be passed out.

Also do not know why you would assume I judged you, I pretty clearly told you not to judge even yourself. If you are seeing judgement in my comment it isn’t coming from me, so where is it coming from?

LOL- I didn't assume you had judged me.  I know you weren't.  That's the point of it.  Sorry if it seemed confusing.

Yes.  I assume in good faith that you weren't condemning me to repeat third density on an STS planet (or however that would translate into the Ra-verse)

But I could have taken offense.  I could have felt judged by you.  But I didn't.  And that says more about me, than it does about you.

There are people who "feel judged" all the time.  But the most that pretty much anybody is doing is holding up a mirror.  Some of us just do that more consciously than others.  

Does that make more sense now?

I mean it truely and I know the beings here well enough to know they also are not judging your desire, just entering into a discussion you started by asking for oppinions.

You're right... I did come here and ask for opinions!  So what sane basis would I have at becoming offended by them?  I'm not offended.  But I'm also not convinced.

So let's zoom this out a little further.  Let's say you and I are classmates in a classroom.  Would it be OK for me to share my topical opinions with you in that environment?  Would it violate your free will, if I shared my opinion without you explicitly asking for it?

First at 17 by a born again Christian lady. She was likely the first person to ever love me unconditionally.

Thank you for sharing those stories!  I would be interested to know more, if you are open to sharing, about what specifically she did/said that caused you to feel unconditional love, and an example of how it put you on a different path than the one you were otherwise choosing for yourself.

Only if you are open to it.    Feel free to PM too.

[Louisabell]

When I think of those types of catalyst that have given me the fuel to want to be a better version of myself, I think of the various encounters in my life where friends, service providers and even complete strangers showed me an inordinate amount of kindness and respect.

Would you be willing to share a specific story of this?  One where another's demonstration of lovingkindness really catalyzed you to take your life in a different direction?

Once I went to emergency for an issue I was having that was causing me quite a bit of pain. I was tended to by multiple nurses and doctors as they injected me with an IV and examined me. One young doctor during his time with me came up beside me. He grabbed my hand (the one with the IV in it) and he took a little time to look directly at me and give me this super warm and caring smile. At that moment I was overcome with a feeling that everything was going to be OK. My frustrated attitude towards my "uncooperative" body changed to one which realized how precious it was and how this doctor was investing himself to lovingly heal it.

These exchanges catalyze certain chain reactions in the life pattern. You cannot say that this one interaction changed absolutely everything for me in that moment, but it taught me a lot on how to be. This doctor has no idea what, if any, effect his choices had on me. This service goes beyond language. I think it is impatience that wants us to see really obvious external effects, but I think it does us well to remember that one of the most evident manifestations of polarization is simply the attitude change.  

83.7 ▶ Questioner: One thing I don’t understand is why, if there was no veil, that the review of incarnation after the incarnation would help the process since it seems to me that the entity should already be aware of what was happening. Possibly this has to do with the nature of space/time and time/space. Could you clear that up, please?

Ra: I am Ra. It is true that the nature of time/space is such that a lifetime may be seen whole as a book or record, the pages studied, riffled through, and re-read. However, the value of review is that of the testing as opposed to the studying. At the testing, when the test is true, the distillations of all study are made clear.

During the process of study, which you may call the incarnation, regardless of an entity’s awareness of the process taking place, the material is diffused and over-attention is almost inevitably placed upon detail.

The testing upon the cessation of the incarnative state is not that testing which involves the correct memorization of many details. This testing is, rather, the observing of self by self, often with aid as we have said. In this observation one sees the sum of all the detailed study; that being an attitude or complex of attitudes which bias the consciousness of the mind/body/spirit.

So it seems the only thing we really take with us after the incarnation is our complex of attitudes.

The key to creating of the life a sacred journey is the attitude with which this journey is taken. We would suggest that the invocation of gratitude and thankfulness is a great key in bringing one’s day-to-day life into focus. For no matter whether that which faces one in any particular instance would be thought of by the world as a blessing or as a challenge, yet still, in essence, that which lies before you is the perfect gift for this moment, containing your service and your learning.

There are people who "feel judged" all the time.  But the most that pretty much anybody is doing is holding up a mirror.  Some of us just do that more consciously than others.  

True, and why shouldn't they when they have been told their entire lives by parents, peers, educators, media, society that they're not good enough? And if someone is experiencing this internal catalyst of feeling overly judged, do you really think another "judgmental" statement about something else they're doing wrong will help at all (even if it seems helpful to you)?

So how do we make that assessment in each situation as to whether tough-love/zen-slap will "shake someone awake" or if it will just add to the already overloaded unresolved catalyst that the entity is painfully carrying? Well, I would say that love is required to guide us, for it is only love that demands that each individual for each situation be treated with the unique consideration that they deserve.

I think the frustration is not so much that spiritual people are bestowing too much loving kindness without effect, but that anything we do has little effect. Which kind of makes sense, if it was easier then a 3rd density cycle wouldn't take 75,000 years, and there definitely wouldn't be any repeater souls. But that is the path of service to others, which is to offer the service without any expectation of return/result.

I had added a section to my earlier reply about parts of me that would be considered STS that I fully embraced and accepted as something not to suppress. My intention was to show my complete NONJUDGMENT of you. I deleted it after as I felt it just seemed I selfishly was somehow making the thread about me. perhaps that selfishness(I love sharing and connecting) would have helped you see I really am not judging you at all. So I should have overshared apparently l.

It is even possible to overshare here? Please do.

Also, I think this has been a great discussion and I thank redchartreuse for bringing it to the forefront, and for your unapologetic honesty in addressing it... and don't forget to administer your vials of lovingkindness © INC*


*may cause unintended side effects, polarizing towards the positive not guaranteed

[Cainite]

Sorry guys I didn't read the second page of this thread.

I just wanted to point out sth about ''awakening''

I don't think I myself am awake and free.

that only comes with enlightenment.

opening the higher chakras and being on the path of polarization is not the real thing.

If it was, I wouldn't be desperately searching for inspiration all the time.. and I wouldn't suffer as much.

[Glow]

...

I will share those two stories when I have had a bit more time to remember the transition of before event and the changes that followed but since that was 25 years ago it may take a few days.

Cainite - It isn’t just you. Awakening isn’t a light switch that stays on fully lit.
For most if not all it is moments of illumination that make us unable to fully go back to the unconscious way if living. After that it is just a process.

Sleep vs Awake Id say most are in the groggy bits of awakening where it is mostly uncomfortable.
I know I get lots of moments even hours of beautiful love/unity where I feel really free.

Those if anything make the other moments of falling back into regular collective separation consciousness even less comfortable. So I’m still in the groggy half awake struggle too.

Talk later all. Be well.
[/quote]

[kristina]

In this session, Ra refers to the two wanderers who unintentionally negatively polarized and self-harvested to 4D negative during their second cycle.

To be fully honest and transparent here, I have to say that I can somewhat empathize with their attitude toward those neutral beings.  Though I can not see myself using the "domination unto physical death" as a means of promoting growth and evolution in other-selves, I have been known to use the very sharply pointed words as sort of a "zen slap" in order to shock a person momentarily into a higher state of awareness, in hopes that this may catalyze them into seeking.

Though, for the most part, this does not work and the other-self quickly returns to their slumber... occasionally it does work, with the result of people approaching me at a later time, sometimes after many years, and thanking me for my pointed remarks.  Having lodged themselves into their consciousness, it seems at times to have prevented them from fully returning to an unconscious state.

Whereas the alternative proposed by Ra, to "offer those comforts designed for the sleeping" or to idly "send them love and light and wish them well", quite frankly, seem overly lazy and complacent to me, even to the point of bordering on condescension.  Again, just trying to share my honest perspective here.

In any case, this leads me to two questions regarding how this may all affect one's polarity.

The first has to do with the free-will of the other-self.   As Ra has unequivocally stated, the purpose of taking incarnation is to spiritually evolve.  And so, while the incarnated self may have not "asked" for the service, the larger portion of themselves, indeed, has the intention of evolving.  And if their connection to their own soul is too blocked or ignored as to make any difference, than what other option do we have than to try to awaken them from within the 3D environment?

In other words- when considering the possible infringement upon free-will are we to only consider that which has been requested by the small incarnated self, or does the will of the larger being outside of the space/time incarnation take precedence?

Secondly- Ra says here that these two beings polarized negatively despite having created results contrary to their intentions.  So which is it that holds sway in determining the polarization?  Intentions or outcomes?  Because Q'uo often suggests that it is only the intention that counts, and not the outcome... so their teachings appear to be at odds here.

The way I see it....
Who are you to take their experience away from them according to their own choosing? What right does another have to lovingly slap you from your slumber? Do you know their true timeline in which they choose to awaken? No. No more than they may know yours.
If you are sleeping and someone rudely awakens you and they are persistant that you awaken yet you do not want to. What right do they have to stand at your bedside and harp until you begrudgingly awaken? Though they may make it in time to work, the experience they had with you was distasteful and disruptive. Why not use love instead? The harm in administering love is what? There is a deeper learning of yourself and of the rights of others to choose their own way. You could simply "accept" they want to sleep, cover their feet and give them the comfort they desire; which is love. Anything outside of that complete acceptance of their personal desires is the opposite of love. And it literally goes straight into an area of controlling another.

[flofrog]

I’m actually going to opt out of trying to converse on this.
I received a significant concussion a bit over a month ago and while most things have healed I still struggle with trying to effectively communicate multiple points in a back inforth via writing.

Thankfully I am fine in person, other than needing a lot of sleep. I guess it is that screen time thing.
My eyes start feeling like they are crossing and it just gets very difficult.

I will share those two stories when I have had a bit more time to remember the transition of before event and the changes that followed but since that was 25 years ago it may take a few days.

Cainite - It isn’t just you. Awakening isn’t a light switch that stays on fully lit.
For most if not all it is moments of illumination that make us unable to fully go back to the unconscious way if living. After that it is just a process.

Sleep vs Awake Id say most are in the groggy bits of awakening where it is mostly uncomfortable.
I know I get lots of moments even hours of beautiful love/unity where I feel really free.

Those if anything make the other moments of falling back into regular collective separation consciousness even less comfortable. So I’m still in the groggy half awake struggle too.

Talk later all. Be well.

[/quote]

Be well, Glow

[redchartreuse]

Yeah, this thread has become quite sprawling and difficult to navigate!  We have wandered far from those two wanderers...

Let me make one attempt at re-focusing.  Perhaps it would do better in its own thread, but since we are here...

It seems to me that one major fulcrum of the conversation has to do with the idea that people are "choosing" to spiritually sleep.

Some folks just keep repeating this like it's gospel... like a mantra.  However, to my perception, this seems to be a very huge assumption.  And one that may play right into the hands of the negative polarity.

Why would we suppose people are "choosing" to spiritually sleep?

Spiritual sleep is more like... the opposite of choice.  People in this state... they are not choosing to sleep.  They have been spiritually drugged and PUT to sleep.  And therefore, they neither are choosing not to awaken.

They aren't really choosing much of anything, actually.  What may seem like "choices" are what has been chosen for them by others.  They are the fruits of what *somebody else* planted into their subconscious mind.

[Minyatur]

Because the human experience is centered upon sleep and this is what allows the archetypal relationships to play out with intensity.

Without this quality of sleep, you lose passion in near everything. The love between parent and child is merely the love between self and self found in other-self, the love between man and woman is only a basis of energy exchange and polarity in dualizing the Logos' experience. None would fear death nor cling any much to their life, knowing the nature of incarnation as a temporary dream. Evolution would be much much slower than it is at this moment, because nothing yields passion and one's experience without confusion becomes much less complex. The quality of sleep is what makes life intense and thrilling, what enables to miss someome and be sorrowful. Most that are unwell are unwell because of their love, there is a certain beauty to it that is of interest to the Creator. A total absence of sorrow is not as much joyful as it is monotone.

The material posits that the veil of forgetting is there to offer a quality experience to the Creator. I think this does not make so much sense to the human veiled mind, but if one touches the portion of themselves that is spirit and eternal, then it becomes easier to find resonance. A lot is gained in term of experience in forgetting that you are just all that there is, but that is dreaming.

It's a bit like how last night you could have had a dream of being chased and killed, then you wake sweaty because of the red ray rush caused by the fear you experienced. It does not matter so much to your waking self, because it was a dream, a fantasy, but the quality of having forgetten that is what made the experience of living a thrill. Human life is the same, it is a dream we wake up from and forgetting that it is a dream is what allows one to actually live something. It is all the complex play of conscious and unconscious, and it goes far beyond this earthly experience.

[redchartreuse]

Once I went to emergency for an issue I was having that was causing me quite a bit of pain. I was tended to by multiple nurses and doctors as they injected me with an IV and examined me. One young doctor during his time with me came up beside me. He grabbed my hand (the one with the IV in it) and he took a little time to look directly at me and give me this super warm and caring smile. At that moment I was overcome with a feeling that everything was going to be OK. My frustrated attitude towards my "uncooperative" body changed to one which realized how precious it was and how this doctor was investing himself to lovingly heal it.

These exchanges catalyze certain chain reactions in the life pattern. You cannot say that this one interaction changed absolutely everything for me in that moment, but it taught me a lot on how to be. This doctor has no idea what, if any, effect his choices had on me. This service goes beyond language. I think it is impatience that wants us to see really obvious external effects, but I think it does us well to remember that one of the most evident manifestations of polarization is simply the attitude change.

Thanks for sharing that story!  I think you are right to point out the change in attitude as one of the first manifestations of this.  It's interesting to me... seems like he was responding more directly to your fear than your frustration.  Would you say that it was the case?

True, and why shouldn't they when they have been told their entire lives by parents, peers, educators, media, society that they're not good enough? And if someone is experiencing this internal catalyst of feeling overly judged, do you really think another "judgmental" statement about something else they're doing wrong will help at all (even if it seems helpful to you)?

You are right... it is certainly understandable why some may feel this way.  However, what I am saying is that just because a person "feels judged" does not mean they were actually judged.

As I'm sure you are aware the phrase "don't judge me" has been weaponized and turned into what some believe to be an impenetrable defense against any sort of observation of their bizarre, outrageous, or even harmful and destructive behaviors.  

[Hey you!  Stop raping little boys.  And you over there!  Stop enabling and covering for child rapists.  Oh what's that?  Oh my bad... yes by all means carry on... so sorry to have "judged" you both.]

Note... I have pointed out that so many appear to be sleeping and nonresponsive.  Yes, I expressed frustration at this.

But I did not say those sleeping people are pieces of s*** who deserve everything that is coming to them, and that I hope they suffer even more.

I did not say those things... yet some respond as if I had.  That is what I am pointing out here.

Yes, I coined a term "zen slap" that appears to have triggered some.  But again, what was triggered in another by this... is about them.  In its own ironic way, it has sort of become a "zen slap" in itself.  Do you see?  All this was triggered by me quite unintentionally.  I was just trying to have a conversation.

What I am doing in a "zen slap" is not violence.  It is nothing more than pointed words.  

So how do we make that assessment in each situation as to whether tough-love/zen-slap will "shake someone awake" or if it will just add to the already overloaded unresolved catalyst that the entity is painfully carrying? Well, I would say that love is required to guide us, for it is only love that demands that each individual for each situation be treated with the unique consideration that they deserve.

Makes sense.  And yet... here let me share with you a story.

Not too long ago, someone who I am very close with developed a severe pain in her jaw radiating up to her ear.  But rather than seek out care for it, the effect of the jaw/ear pain was to amplify certain behaviors known as "the complaining" and "the not listening."   (Somehow I feel you already know what was going on here, yes?  Kinda obvious?)

Now, mind you, I am a sensitive person too and so having another person in my space who is near constantly complaining and spewing out negative emotion is a big challenge to me.

So after a short while I suggested she seek out some bodywork.  And she did.  But the first practitioner wasn't able to bring her much lasting relief.  Back to the complaining.  So after another while, I suggested to find another bodyworker, in addition to an acupuncturist and a chiropractor.   Progress ensued.  But the complaining continued.

So then I suggested... well maybe there is something else going on here.  Perhaps there is a metaphysical component to the pain.  (Mind you, the metaphysical component was glaringly obvious to me the whole time.)  At first... she didn't want to hear it.  Didn't want to listen.  Got angry with me.  The pain got worse.  And worse.  The complaining got worse and worse.  The not listening worse and worse.

Finally, after about four months of this things came to a head.  Everyone was upset.  Nobody had slept in weeks.  My own chronic pain issues were flaring out of control from being in an emotionally toxic environment.

I lost it.  Well... I didn't really lose it so much as I let go of all the energy I had tied up in "holding back" what I wanted to say, and trying to hide my frustrations and respond to the situation only with acceptance and lovingkindness.

So... I just let it loose.  I told her this is what is going on, and that is what is going to happen if she doesn't pull her head out of her ass and get serious about healing.

And guess what?  It worked!  That turned out to be the catalyst she needed to finally turn inward and look to nonphysical causes of her pain. And now... it is gone.

Again... mind you I didn't say "you are a worthless piece of s*** who will never amount to anything".  It was more of a getting angry with the attitude of "you are bigger than this, and I am not going to standby and let you destroy your health and your relationships because you are too afraid to face your inner demons."

Do you see?  The kindness, the patience, the tolerance, the acceptance... these were present all throughout.  But it was the "kick in the pants" that ended up mobilizing everything else.

I think the frustration is not so much that spiritual people are bestowing too much loving kindness without effect, but that anything we do has little effect. Which kind of makes sense, if it was easier then a 3rd density cycle wouldn't take 75,000 years, and there definitely wouldn't be any repeater souls. But that is the path of service to others, which is to offer the service without any expectation of return/result.

Yes, I would agree.  However please note I never said anything about "too much" lovingkindness.  I was talking about there being a lack of balance between this and other tools.

As for expectation of result/return again you are right in terms of each individual case.  Admittedly, this is much easier to do with somebody with whom I have no emotional investment.  However, I am attempting to look at the overall pattern here.  I was not joking when I alluded to feeling this is part of my purpose here.

This little creation here of ours... I'm not sure if everyone got the memo... but it didn't go according to plan.  And where I come from, we wouldn't want to miss out on such a grand opportunity for learning.

So you see, it's not so much I am here trying to argue that we should abandon lovingkindness because it is useless.  But rather to find out what in Creation is going on when it doesn't work as expected.

Also, I think this has been a great discussion and I thank redchartreuse for bringing it to the forefront, and for your unapologetic honesty in addressing it... and don't forget to administer your vials of lovingkindness © INC*

I also thank you for your participation and contributions.  They are quite welcome, and helpful!  

And also, while I appreciate your vibe of "lovingkindness" it is the addition of your vibrations of wisdom and understanding which are coming together to serve as effective catalyst for me here.

If you had merely nodded and smiled, and wished me well, I don't think that my attitude would be shifting.

[redchartreuse]

Because the human experience is centered upon sleep and this is what allows the archetypal relationships to play out with intensity.

Without this quality of sleep, you lose passion in near everything. The love between parent and child is merely the love between self and self found in other-self, the love between man and woman is only a basis of energy exchange and polarity in dualizing the Logos' experience. None would fear death nor cling any much to their life, knowing the nature of incarnation as a temporary dream. Evolution would be much much slower than it is at this moment, because nothing yields passion and one's experience without confusion becomes much less complex. The quality of sleep is what makes life intense and thrilling, what enables to miss someome and be sorrowful. Most that are unwell are unwell because of their love, there is a certain beauty to it that is of interest to the Creator. A total absence of sorrow is not as much joyful as it is monotone.

If you had substituted "the veil" for "sleep" in the above, it would make perfect sense to me.  However as it stands, it looks quite strained.

If we are to take Ra at their word, the purpose of incarnation is to spiritually grow and evolve.  Not to sleep.

The material posits that the veil of forgetting is there to offer a quality experience to the Creator. I think this does not make so much sense to the human veiled mind, but if one touches the portion of themselves that is spirit and eternal, then it becomes easier to find resonance. A lot is gained in term of experience in forgetting that you are just all that there is, but that is dreaming.

The purpose and function of the veil makes sense to me.  What doesn't make sense is the seeming attitude that, since some veil is good, more veil must be better.  

This creation is an experiment.  And it is perfectly acceptable to me as an experiment.  However, an experiment is a total waste if nothing was learned.

It's a bit like how last night you could have had a dream of being chased and killed, then you wake sweaty because of the red ray rush caused by the fear you experienced. It does not matter so much to your waking self, because it was a dream, a fantasy, but the quality of having forgetten that is what made the experience of living a thrill. Human life is the same, it is a dream we wake up from and forgetting that it is a dream is what allows one to actually live something. It is all the complex play of conscious and unconscious, and it goes far beyond this earthly experience.

I agree with what you have said here, but I am failing to see how it applies to the topic at hand.

What we are discussing here is more like... going to "sleep" by having an incarnation, and then "waking up" and realizing that one spent the whole time dreaming that they were sleeping.  

Is there something to be gained by this?  Does it result in a certain kind of growth or evolution?  Is there a higher purpose here?

Or is it simply the unfortunate consequence of using the imbalanced experimental conditions to produce spiritual growth among entities?

[Minyatur]

If you had substituted "the veil" for "sleep" in the above, it would make perfect sense to me.  However as it stands, it looks quite strained.

If we are to take Ra at their word, the purpose of incarnation is to spiritually grow and evolve.  Not to sleep.

I'm just saying you cannot dissociate the two, the quality of sleep is what offers the greater opportunity of growth.

I posted this yesterday in another thread:

Ra: I am Ra. This query is more complex than most. We shall begin. The incarnation pattern of the beginning third-density mind/body/spirit complex begins in darkness, for you may think or consider of your density as one of, as you may say, a sleep and a forgetting. This is the only plane of forgetting. It is necessary for the third-density entity to forget so that the mechanisms of confusion or free will may operate upon the newly individuated consciousness complex.

Which I am tying to:

Ra: I am Ra. Given that our interpretation of your sound vibration complexes is appropriate, this is incorrect. The intensity of fourth density is that of the refining of the rough-hewn sculpture. This is, indeed, in its own way, quite intense causing the mind/body/spirit complex to move ever inward and onward in its quest for fuller expression. However, in third density the statue is forged in the fire. This is a type of intensity which is not the property of fourth, fifth, sixth, or seventh densities.

The purpose and function of the veil makes sense to me.  What doesn't make sense is the seeming attitude that, since some veil is good, more veil must be better.  

This creation is an experiment.  And it is perfectly acceptable to me as an experiment.  However, an experiment is a total waste if nothing was learned.

Learning is to distill one's experience. The veil is there to offer a greater variety of experience to distill.

The strong point of the Earth is that depending on your incarnational circumstances, you can have very different kinds of experiences for a human lifetime. It offers many opportunities to work different things.

It's a bit like how last night you could have had a dream of being chased and killed, then you wake sweaty because of the red ray rush caused by the fear you experienced. It does not matter so much to your waking self, because it was a dream, a fantasy, but the quality of having forgetten that is what made the experience of living a thrill. Human life is the same, it is a dream we wake up from and forgetting that it is a dream is what allows one to actually live something. It is all the complex play of conscious and unconscious, and it goes far beyond this earthly experience.

I agree with what you have said here, but I am failing to see how it applies to the topic at hand.

What we are discussing here is more like... going to "sleep" by having an incarnation, and then "waking up" and realizing that one spent the whole time dreaming that they were sleeping.  

Is there something to be gained by this?  Does it result in a certain kind of growth or evolution?  Is there a higher purpose here?

Or is it simply the unfortunate consequence of using the imbalanced experimental conditions to produce spiritual growth among entities?

A bit like I said before, it offers opportunity for experience. Learning is for one to see its reflection, all there is to learn about is yourself.

[redchartreuse]

I'm just saying you cannot dissociate the two, the quality of sleep is what offers the greater opportunity of growth.

But we can dissociate them.  It is entirely possible for a soul to take an incarnation wherein the veil is not penetrated to the slightest degree.  And yet, growth occurs.

Ra: I am Ra. This query is more complex than most. We shall begin. The incarnation pattern of the beginning third-density mind/body/spirit complex begins in darkness, for you may think or consider of your density as one of, as you may say, a sleep and a forgetting. This is the only plane of forgetting. It is necessary for the third-density entity to forget so that the mechanisms of confusion or free will may operate upon the newly individuated consciousness complex.

It appears you have missed the context... they are referring to "the incarnation pattern of the beginning third-density MBSC."

We are not in the beginning of third density here, but the end.  And those incarnated here are ostensibly those who were deemed most likely to grow. These are not "new" souls but those who have gone through 75,000 years of incarnative experiences. Maybe even a second or third round of it.

Ra: I am Ra. Given that our interpretation of your sound vibration complexes is appropriate, this is incorrect. The intensity of fourth density is that of the refining of the rough-hewn sculpture. This is, indeed, in its own way, quite intense causing the mind/body/spirit complex to move ever inward and onward in its quest for fuller expression. However, in third density the statue is forged in the fire. This is a type of intensity which is not the property of fourth, fifth, sixth, or seventh densities.

For one who spent their entire incarnation sleeping, there is no sculpture.  Because there is no growth, and no polarization.  No true identity.  Therefore, they did not make it into fourth density, for there would be nothing for them to refine.

They did not achieve the purpose to their incarnation.  And therefore, they will need to repeat the incarnation.  Is this so "bad" in the ultimate sense?  No, it isn't.  However, I highly doubt that their Higher Self will make a determination that sending them back to a place rife with distractions made for sleeping would be a good next move.  I'm guessing... their next life is going to entail even harsher catalyst in an environment where there aren't so many distractions available to them.

So... forgive me for my apparent missteps to try and spare a brother from the rod of future harsh catalyst.  However, as I'm sure you know, this Creation has a lot more to offer in terms of harsh catalyst than a few pointed words from a passerby.  It's funny... while we accept the value of harsh catalyst, we reject being the bearer of it, preferring to leave it to "somebody else" to do the dirty work.

A bit like I said before, it offers opportunity for experience. Learning is for one to see its reflection, all there is to learn about is yourself.

Then, perhaps, those in the sinkhole are here to energetically counterbalance the presence of those who have previously moved beyond polarity and achieved a sixth-density balance between love and wisdom.  

It's a gambit, and yet one that appears to have not (yet) turned out well.

I do get the thrust of your replies.  However, they are continuing to skirt the point I made about how the spiritual sleeping people did not choose to sleep... they were drugged, put to sleep, and their subconscious minds hacked and subverted into unwittingly serving a dark agenda.

I continue to be shocked and amazed at how many in the spiritual community (not necessarily you in particular) appear to be numb to this, and have adopted such a blasé attitude about it, preferring to soothe (i.e. serve) themselves with little spiritual quips and taglines, and snuggling up underneath the covers with their sleeping friends,  instead of making a real effort to be of service to others. Or failing to act for fear of "losing their polarity."

To my view, those who just stand by and watch from the sidelines are the ones actually at greatest risk of polarity loss, since they are continually turning a blind eye toward opportunities to serve out of fear and self-concern.  To be sure, there is a place for those who wish to watch from the sidelines... but it is for them to remain on the other side of the veil, and out of incarnation.

[flofrog]

I continue to be shocked and amazed at how many in the spiritual community (not necessarily you in particular) appear to be numb to this, and have adopted such a blasé attitude about it, preferring to soothe (i.e. serve) themselves with little spiritual quips and taglines, and snuggling up underneath the covers with their sleeping friends,  instead of making a real effort to be of service to others. Or failing to act for fear of "losing their polarity."

To my view, those who just stand by and watch from the sidelines are the ones actually at greatest risk of polarity loss, since they are continually turning a blind eye toward opportunities to serve out of fear and self-concern.  To be sure, there is a place for those who wish to watch from the sidelines... but it is for them to remain on the other side of the veil, and out of incarnation.

RC, I wonder if this next small thing might be of interest... It doesn't really address the lack of help that should be given, mind you. I am like you, in often amazement as to how my life is in certain way safe, and though with sometimes difficult catalysts, totally privileged compared to what horrific things happen to others here or elsewhere on the globe. But to come back : nearly forty years ago I was studying Edgar Cayce and I remember on one medical reading he went onto reincarnation process and how it was forever, as long 'equanimity' of sort was not reached, how it was a balancing process, as he cited "as ye measure to others it will be measured to you' and there was a passage I remember from that time, but here not sure if it was from Cayce or from another reading, but I remember finding at that time a passage as some entities who had versed into racism right before WW2 reincarnating in South Africa as a balancing process. I mean I am sure karma is a much more subtle and complex process, and I think whenever help can be provided to ANY entity in distress it is mostly evident, but what I mean is, would perhaps the 'sleep' state not to be as evident as it may seem ? I don't know.

Not sure if I express this well... sorry !

[redchartreuse]

Not sure if I express this well... sorry !

Hiya flo! Well first off, no need to apologize. But secondarily- and not that you should or would care much about my impressions of you- however I get a sense that you are somehow veiling your power, or are toning yourself down so as not to appear overbearing... if that makes any sense. I could be totally off myself here, however you appear to have come across quite a bit of wisdom in your journey, and I believe this would earn you the right to speak with a bit more authority that, in turn, may aid you with finding more clarity.

Or not, such is your choice. But maybe experiment with it a bit, and see what happens. But in any case, it is all good and welcome. As for your interactions of me, please don't hold back anything for my sake.

as long 'equanimity' of sort was not reached, how it was a balancing process,

I feel quite sure this is correct.

as he cited "as ye measure to others it will be measured to you'

Yes, I think this is a fascinating concept to explore, though it often receives a glib treatment.

With respect to our sleeping friends, the yardstick so-to-speak is growth, evolution, or change. To be sure, we are not privy to the innermost workings of another's being. But we can see their actions, and we can hear their words. And so, if somebody is doing the same things, saying the same things, over and over again, I believe this is a fair indicator of a lack of evolution.

As for me, am I prepared to be measured by this selfsame yardstick? Yes, I believe I am. Because growth and evolution is always at the forefront of my mind, and I can attest on my own behalf (or find others to attest on my behalf) that I have grown, and continue to grow, into higher versions of myself.

And why should we expect anything different? Since this is the natural order of things... to grow and evolve. It is a basic function of life itself.

would perhaps the 'sleep' state  not to be as  evident  as it may seem ?

Do you mean for us to consider that one who appears to be sleeping, may in fact not be?

[flofrog]

Not sure if I express this well... sorry !

Hiya flo!  Well first off, no need to apologize.  But secondarily- and not that you should or would care much about my impressions of you- however I get a sense that you are somehow veiling your power, or are toning yourself down so as not to appear overbearing... if that makes any sense.  I could be totally off myself here, however you appear to have come across quite a bit of wisdom in your journey, and I believe this would earn you the right to speak with a bit more authority that, in turn, may aid you with finding more clarity.  

Or not, such is your choice.  But maybe experiment with it a bit, and see what happens.  But in any case, it is all good and welcome.  As for your interactions of me, please don't hold back anything for my sake.  

as long 'equanimity' of sort was not reached, how it was a balancing process,

I feel quite sure this is correct.

as he cited "as ye measure to others it will be measured to you'

Yes, I think this is a fascinating concept to explore, though it often receives a glib treatment.

With respect to our sleeping friends, the yardstick so-to-speak is growth, evolution, or change.  To be sure, we are not privy to the innermost workings of another's being.  But we can see their actions, and we can hear their words.  And so, if somebody is doing the same things, saying the same things, over and over again, I believe this is a fair indicator of a lack of evolution.

As for me, am I prepared to be measured by this selfsame yardstick?  Yes, I believe I am.  Because growth and evolution is always at the forefront of my mind, and I can attest on my own behalf (or find others to attest on my behalf) that I have grown, and continue to grow, into higher versions of myself.

And why should we expect anything different?  Since this is the natural order of things... to grow and evolve.  It is a basic function of life itself.

would perhaps the 'sleep' state  not to be as  evident  as it may seem ?

Do you mean for us to consider that one who appears to be sleeping, may in fact not be?

Hi RC, lol you have me right about restraint but it is more because, being 72 years old, I have seen lots of entities suffering when apparently they had an easier life so it is more like you never quite know.

I think my restraint comes from becoming interested in buddhism in my teens. The principles of respecting the sacredness of any entity, the kindness first, in case of non-knowledge, those principles in buddhism are strong when you come into them young, so it never totally leaves you, it's bit like second skin. The good thing in buddhism is that there is also Rightful Anger which is allowed in cases where you need to save in emergency cases. This is what would be applied for exemple in the thread that you started about Enablers of "evil".

today, my children are adults and pretty well progressing with own catalysts, I could debate a lot and get back into activism, but I am still working on two very different branches of projects, one creative and one on a cause, and it's taking a hell lot of time lol

so I think I love coming here and read about persons and their interest in Ra, but truly yes I stay a bit behind because it's more relaxed and I enjoy being lazy a bit, lol

Most of all, I think today, even I am not the dedicated buddhist I used to be, now I am a just a lump of sugar floating , lol, I still think the view of Buddhism on carefulness to be kind first, yes it is still there. Because I am old, it is very hard for me to get on someone's case because I always feel there might be so much suffering unknown. My parents were french and went through WWII, it means my siblings and I learnt a lot about stories seldom known how people can live so courageously and anonymously, our parents first.

There is a lot of peace you get from reading buddhist texts. Is it detracting from doing good things, I dont know. Does it prevent me from polarizing more ? I bet it does, but I dont really care how much I polarize, I just want to do things in the moment if it is needed, or feel it is needed.

About the sleep thing, yes, I have a strong intuitive feeling that there is something there we dont see, I see your point and frustration, which is why I think your thread is so interesting.


Just adding : I think argument and debates are in fact essential to progress too !!!
And then there is this too : my sister who was born before me, before the war, went to India to Tiruvannamalai to meet Raman Maharshi and to a question of one of the attendees about how to make the world a better place, he said, " I put myself in order and the world puts itself in order around me " lol
That seems a pretty self important view at first lol, but you know that works too for the awesome debaters and challengers if this is their order

[Minyatur]

Ra: I am Ra. This query is more complex than most. We shall begin. The incarnation pattern of the beginning third-density mind/body/spirit complex begins in darkness, for you may think or consider of your density as one of, as you may say, a sleep and a forgetting. This is the only plane of forgetting. It is necessary for the third-density entity to forget so that the mechanisms of confusion or free will may operate upon the newly individuated consciousness complex.

It appears you have missed the context... they are referring to "the incarnation pattern of the beginning third-density MBSC."

We are not in the beginning of third density here, but the end.  And those incarnated here are ostensibly those who were deemed most likely to grow. These are not "new" souls but those who have gone through 75,000 years of incarnative experiences.  Maybe even a second or third round of it.

It does not change the fact that this is still the density of sleep and forgetting. You were not born remembering all your incarnations upon this plane, it was veiled just like what's in between.

Ra: I am Ra. Given that our interpretation of your sound vibration complexes is appropriate, this is incorrect. The intensity of fourth density is that of the refining of the rough-hewn sculpture. This is, indeed, in its own way, quite intense causing the mind/body/spirit complex to move ever inward and onward in its quest for fuller expression. However, in third density the statue is forged in the fire. This is a type of intensity which is not the property of fourth, fifth, sixth, or seventh densities.

For one who spent their entire incarnation sleeping, there is no sculpture.  Because there is no growth, and no polarization.  No true identity.  Therefore, they did not make it into fourth density, for there would be nothing for them to refine.

They did not achieve the purpose to their incarnation.  And therefore, they will need to repeat the incarnation.  Is this so "bad" in the ultimate sense?  No, it isn't.  However, I highly doubt that their Higher Self will make a determination that sending them back to a place rife with distractions made for sleeping would be a good next move.  I'm guessing... their next life is going to entail even harsher catalyst in an environment where there aren't so many distractions available to them.

The issue with generalizations is that we are many to be many ways.

Each's higher self can very well not want to partake in a veiled 3D if that's what they want, I guess it is just in a way less interesting not to.

So... forgive me for my apparent missteps to try and spare a brother from the rod of future harsh catalyst.  However, as I'm sure you know, this Creation has a lot more to offer in terms of harsh catalyst than a few pointed words from a passerby.  It's funny... while we accept the value of harsh catalyst, we reject being the bearer of it, preferring to leave it to "somebody else" to do the dirty work.

To not forgive and accept is what signifies further lessons and harsh catalysts, because at some point you need to find harmony with yourself. The mechanics and laws of this Universe are all bound to the Law of One.

It is our own responsibility to balance ourselves and an avoidance of doing so in attempting to balance others is a distorted endeavor. I'm not denying its purpose, I'm just saying what it is in response to your questionings.

Then, perhaps, those in the sinkhole are here to energetically counterbalance the presence of those who have previously moved beyond polarity and achieved a sixth-density balance between love and wisdom.  

It's a gambit, and yet one that appears to have not (yet) turned out well.

I do get the thrust of your replies.  However, they are continuing to skirt the point I made about how the spiritual sleeping people did not choose to sleep... they were drugged, put to sleep, and their subconscious minds hacked and subverted into unwittingly serving a dark agenda.

Free will is the first distortion of everyone's experience, it can be abstracted using illusory patterns but it cannot be removed.

I continue to be shocked and amazed at how many in the spiritual community (not necessarily you in particular) appear to be numb to this, and have adopted such a blasé attitude about it, preferring to soothe (i.e. serve) themselves with little spiritual quips and taglines, and snuggling up underneath the covers with their sleeping friends,  instead of making a real effort to be of service to others. Or failing to act for fear of "losing their polarity."

Well the most heated topic there's been in this community is meat eating because of how from a spiritual standpoint animals are much like our younger brethren, although argumentation tend to resolve around their sentience which does not depend upon that spiritual aspect.

I've partook a lot on it, on the same side of things as I am now with you, and while it is the subject that got me the deepest into my own heart, it is also the one in which I was brought the most deeply to realize the Law of One as an integral part of myself and others.

What needs to be understood is that free will is in truth unbound to every other law, certain things only make sense later in time and one gets to see why they had to not see.

To my view, those who just stand by and watch from the sidelines are the ones actually at greatest risk of polarity loss, since they are continually turning a blind eye toward opportunities to serve out of fear and self-concern.  To be sure, there is a place for those who wish to watch from the sidelines... but it is for them to remain on the other side of the veil, and out of incarnation.

I'm not sure why you are so concerned with polarity and harvest.

The thing with the material is that there was a clear intent on the purpose of sharing the Law of One, but the questioning derailed from there for the vast majority of the work. I doubt harvest was what was wanted to be brought, I think the questionings on the mechanics of the Universe brought it to that natural aspect of this plane and the means of how it function, from there then are given many tools to distort what is into what it is not. It's not for nothing they say they have served with varying degrees of success in transmitting the Law of One, of Unity, of Singleness to our peoples, this is rarely what people are interested in a material that wants to share just that, but through the mean of answering questions for their own reasons. Then, many people become tormented by things they are confused about, just because they use this material to focus on separation rather than unity.

Knowledge of the Law of One is the great healer, because truly all is well. Separation is a paradox that yields itself if freely focused.