Its murder.

[Monica]

This was my opening to my message... So thinking in a way that takes STS and STO to the extremes exactly like the examples I have given.

Well, the statement was "you can't think like that" which is saying that the person either CAN'T think like that, or shouldn't think like that.

What I'm saying is that the person obviously DID think like that, OR maybe you misinterpreted the person's thoughts.

Either way, a request for clarification might lead to better understanding.

I gather that sentience is your arbitrary criteria?

No, not my arbitrary criteria. Sentience is the criteria for graduating from 2D to 3D.

My point is that all the criteria used are arbitrary. Why would sentience be THE ultimate attribute to measure the value of a life form in?

Not for value. 2D entities have as much value as 3D entities. But 3D entities are sentient whereas 2D entities are moving in the direction of sentience. Just as 4D entities have more love, while 3D entities are moving in the direction of love.

The question of value is another issue entirely and has been extensively addressed in the meat thread.

I would reason that these values of social aptitude and intelligence existed before science. Science just didn't question them.

Sure they existed. But science now seems to value them above all else.

Whereas, intelligence isn't even listed in any of the criteria for movement thru the densities, as given to us by Ra. What you call 'social aptitude' is apparently an orange ray issue...not sure what you mean by that.

Fungi are probably the lowest life forms we can see. In some cases it's just cave slime. But it is sentient.

Apparently we have a different definition of sentience. I use the term to mean self-aware; ie. what Ra describes as being criteria for 3D.

What I am saying is that although the human form is a common expression it's not the only one.

Common expression of what? Not the only what?

Life is love. Love is another one of those nearly universal values. You're presupposing that she doesn't feel us as her self.

Gaia probably does have a sense of Oneness with us, but she did exist as an entity before we were dumped here. I think of her as a host who is graciously allowing us to hang out for awhile, much to her great risk and potential peril.

My body is not me, but when I take care of it this is not an act of selfless love. I'm not saying that that's what it is, I'm only saying you're subconsciously providing meaning to her act from a perspective that is not hers.

How do you know that?

Precisely. Now you're acknowledging that she is in some potential way beyond our current understanding.

Of course she is beyond our current understanding. She is a planetary Being!

In what way? Gaia has also undergone great changes in her lifetime. Before she even gets damaged we'll long be dead.

Gaia's body has already been damaged severely! Her skin burned, her body raped, her inhabitants slaughtered and driven to extinction! And at any moment her entire body could be destroyed in an instant! While a long slow death is ensuing, with the toxic accumulation. Unless we change our ways as a society, Gaia will eventually become uninhabitable, by any sort of life form.

Sure, she would survive anything short of nuclear war, but would be severely wounded, just as Mars is wounded.

We could not live in her earlier stages yet she clearly could.

In her earlier stages, she was alive and growing and changing. There was a wildness that we could not fathom. That isn't the same as toxic accumulation to the point of death to all life, or destruction of all life via nuclear weapons.

We are at any rate more of a threat to ourselves than to her.

This may be true but humans are still a threat to her as well.

However if we are part of her. And she perceives our health as her health. Like a mother would. But this still does not mean she is not a savage garden. This is how it has to be. You seem to dislike the idea of the "savage garden"

In the caveman days, human hunters viewed the world as a savage place, because they too were still quite savage, preying on other animals as did the lion and the wolf.

I'd like to think we have evolved since then.

But do you judge the lion who preys on the zebra as well?

I don't judge the lion at all. But I dislike the entire premise this particular reality was based on. I dislike the 'savage' aspect of animals preying on others. I question whether it is an optimal or efficient way to evolve. This has been explored in other threads.

[turtledude23]

Humans measure intelligence in other animals based on on our own expectations of intelligence, primarily: verbal communication and the ability to build things. But Ra said its exactly these things that furthered the veiling process with us. If Cetaceans communicate telepathically then for all we know they're way more intelligent than us, at least in spiritual matters, philosophy, etc. Sure we know alot about chemistry, physics, biology, architecture, electricity, and so on but what have we used this for? At best we've used these things for communication, health care, and making our lives more comfortable, which has only been accomplished within the past 100 years. If we were more in touch with our psychic side we wouldn't need cell phones or hospitals. So all these matters we assume were more intelligent in actually illustrate our inefficiency in existing.

Ra said on Venus there was very little or no war, no money, no power structure, because they were too busy living in society that was like a never ending 60's. I think cetaceans, particularly dolphins, live more like this.

[kristy1111]

Indeed. This does not change when one kills any lower density life either. People justify killing to comfort themselves and avoid facing the truth. Take a flea bite for an example. The event has no meaning. Our gift, free will, is to then choose the meaning we prefer. Hence, one can frame experiences negatively, or positively. To continue...

If a flea bite induced a feeling of bliss to coarse through the body, one may choose to label the flea bite as divine gift.

As it happens, they cause discomfort. Man then chooses to label it a pest, and justifies its killing.

One then engages their free will in the action of extinguishing life, killing an aspect of themselves. The choice has been made. The choice being; "I am capable of taking the life from this soul. I choose to do so as it inconveniences me".

The other choice, which I live by, is "Namasté, little fella".

All of these choices are reflected in the infinite awareness of the one Creator. All. For those on the path of polarisation, they may want to expand unconditional love to 'lower' density life. All is equal.

Ra does not state that STO actions are applicable only to third density life.

OMG....what an absolutely awesome, meaningful, deep, precious message!!! THANK YOU for sharing this!!!

[Aaron]

I've read the article previously and it's not obvious to me. Maybe reading too much into the Hitchhiker's guide?

I actually haven't yet had the chance to view or read the Hitchhiker's Gruide to the Galaxy...

What I was specifically referring to was the size, shape and structure of the dolphin brain. To me, it looks to be capable of sustaining a third density being if we use ourselves as a reference point. But I'm not exactly brimming with cosmic knowledge either...

[Ali Quadir]

I don't judge the lion at all. But I dislike the entire premise this particular reality was based on. I dislike the 'savage' aspect of animals preying on others. I question whether it is an optimal or efficient way to evolve. This has been explored in other threads.

This is the issue. I don't question what is. I'm under the impression wiser creatures than me set up this world, It's pointless to argue with their wisdom.

No offense Monica. I'm not going to change position, you're not going to change position. So I leave it at this.

[zanny]

Thank you all for all the great information to ponder. I am learning much from reading all the different points of view in this thread. I recently read a channeling session from Q’uo that touches on this subject. Here is the link if interested...

Saturday Meditation
October 16, 2010
link

zanny

[Monica]

I recently read a channeling session from Q’uo that touches on this subject. Here is the link if interested...

There are only a very few Q'uo channelings I don't resonate with.

This is one of them.

[feibelal]

Nothing dies, just gets transformed.

The intent behind your action, is what determines what kind of inner change, if any, will happen to yourself.

I've been sort of meditating on this lately - seems like a relevant notion for me. The idea that it's always all about me - in the sense that it is my intentions that matter. If I murder someone (Ok, it's an extreme example), if I do it with pleasure, or with great regret, it's not the act, but what i make of it, and what my intention was, that resonates. So if I eat meat, if I am grateful, that sort of does it for me. Then I look to what sort of eating agrees with me - how much meat, or raw vegan food, or whatever. And I guess be appreciative for whatever foodstuff I end up choosing.

Now what's more towards the morass for me - is what if I know darn well that free-range and humane is much less cruel, if I am going to eat meat? But let's say for convenience and cost I do cruelty-full beef. My dilemma, and my wrestling, isn't objective though. If I can thank the cow or the chicken, then I'm good. If I can't thank it adequately, then that's good to work on. But I think any karma I accrue comes from my callousness in not being appreciative and not from the actual choice to eat cruelty-full for a meal or meals.

I don't really get that, at the emotional level, but I do resonate to the truth of it. I believe, intellectually, that my gratitude and appreciation for the the sacrifice of itself and the pain it experienced could theoretically and humanly be adequate to balance the convenience of my choice. I'm not sure I can appreciate the pain and the self-sacrifice, but that's about the development of my heart. Pain and suffering always exist, and the dance of material 3D is infused with loss of material bodies and pain. How big can my heart become? If I am not eating an occasional meal of cruelty-full beef, I will be using gasoline, or clothing, or food, that was processed by slave or serf or marginalized labor without healthcare, or will be tithing to the literati in myriad daily purchases, will be silent when I could be clear and illuminating and therefore help wake someone else up who exists in the numbness of slumber several or even a hundred times a day because pain and cruelty are implicated in nearly all of my practical choices. All our institutions, governments, and organizations are at the very least asleep and are often hell-bent on extracting our life force from us for their own goals exactly like in the movie The Matrix. By living in these systems, I am always participating in cruelty. That is how they grind us down. If I get too busy trying to avoid material cruelty, or if I get too busy worrying about it, then they win too - I'm playing by their rules, which are about keeping me away from the power of my intention, of my inner attitudes. Ralph Ellison, in Invisible Man, has a line that goes something like "Keep that n***** boy running." That's the plan here, on one level. If you can be raw vegan with joy and without judgement of cruelty full meat eaters, then hurrah for your choices. But it's the personal choice, and the lack of judgement that matters. Better, I say to by a meat eater with joy, and to make room in your heart for alll[/i] the daily cruelties involved in life on earth these days. These myriad and sometimes seamless cruelties come from shopping, having an automobile, using the phone, using the web, being here on Bring 4th since all modern industrial and high tech existence is intimately interwoven into our lives and most of it is profoundly cruel, is in league with cruel, debasing and exploitative government and other power agendas.

So the bottom line is that I can not escape being profoundly, massively intimately implicated in cruelty on a global scale. Eating cruelty free meat, or just vegetables is good if I can do it with joy. But the moment it becomes attached to judgement, then those passionate dietary selections transmute to a mere decoy to the real work of enlarging my heart to encompass the thousands of daily acts where I am participating by my dollars and also by my acquiesence to the yeast and spongelike existence of ubiquitous, grinding cruelty of our global, technological industrial society to all three densities of life on earth .

[Monica]

If you can be raw vegan with joy and without judgement of cruelty full meat eaters, then hurrah for your choices. But it's the personal choice, and the lack of judgement that matters. Better, I say to by a meat eater with joy, and to make room in your heart for alll[/i] the daily cruelties involved in life on earth these days.

So are you saying that being self-righteous about not being cruel, is worse than being cruel? It's worse to avoid needlessly torturing animals, if one is judging those who do, than to needlessly torture animals?

[feibelal]

If you can be raw vegan with joy and without judgement of cruelty full meat eaters, then hurrah for your choices. But it's the personal choice, and the lack of judgement that matters. Better, I say to by a meat eater with joy, and to make room in your heart for alll[/i] the daily cruelties involved in life on earth these days.

So are you saying that being self-righteous about not being cruel, is worse than being cruel? It's worse to avoid needlessly torturing animals, if one is judging those who do, than to needlessly torture animals?

I'm a little nervous about using the term "self-righteous," and I can maybe see where I started the mud-slinging, by labelling some things as judging. I woke up today thinking that I had done some of that self-same "judging" in my post, which is perhaps what you are picking up on. In a wild, out there, kind of way, I suppose I don't really believe in the existence of cruelty. That's when I sit down and think about it, but not in my everyday, non-composed, off center, human reality. BTW, I had a house-mate who did a Perelandra garden one year, and used a pendulum to work with the nature fairies to design every aspect of the garden - when to plant what, where, and how much of it. I remember that it was a stunningly vibrant and pretty garden, and I think we didn't have any pest problems as well.
So, sister, it's where you say "needlessly torture animals" that I don't quite resonate to your question. We're all carrying out our soul's purpose. My own folks were mixed up in the Holocaust thing, but as I sit here it seems to me that Mr. H wasn't really cruel. He was rather pursuing his soul's purpose, and so were a whole lot of other people with him. He reminded us that technological society was not a panacea - that there were deeper matters to attend to. We, in the sense of global society, didn't really harken that much, but that's not his fault. He did his best, and we have temporized and remained asleep. I came across somewhere the ties between the Bush's and the Nazi regime, so onward, Christian (No, he wasn't Christian) soldiers, we go.
Ironically, I am pretty darn delicate in mind, emotion and body, so I go out of whack and into judgment pretty wholistically, which is to say I pretty much exist there. I fall into huge sympathy with just about anything, which is not very spiritually evolved. I did a vegan, and pretty much raw, spell for a couple of months this fall, and I did feel pretty good on it. Last night I cooked up a couple of grass fed New York strips for a special dinner, and I had a whole lot of mixed feelings about it.
My own constitution and psychology has fertile ground for playing with this idea of food as embodied spirituality, and, when I sit composed, I don't think it's the choices that matter. I think it's our attitudes towards our choices. Since I am a human mess though, in 3D right now regardless of what density I came from, wisdom, or even love, are going to be fleeting for me. The veil is too intense, and my soul purpose too maelstromey. If I were inclined to be a yogi, or some such that just meditated, then I could maybe, I think, chip away at the furor of my confusion, abate it some, but that is not my thing.
So I can see that I was insensitive in my post, that love and wisdom are much deeper and purer than what I expressed, and I take responsibility for that. My lack of clarity will keep me, well, unclear and confused. And provide opportunity for catalyst to my sisters and brothers. Sort of like Mr. H, I guess. Ick. But no, I don't "think" that cruelty, such as cruelty to animals, really exists. There are choices, and soul purpose, and the divine doesn't judge. There is balance too! There is also reverence, and gratitude, and when you have found dietary choices that resonate for you, then...you know that road. I guess. I don't know. Something's shifting for me. I suppose something maybe shifted for Mr. H when he committed suicide, maybe. So that's what it really comes down to. We're having a little catalyst, positive or negative, and if we work it, and are lucky, some kind of shift can come out of it, some micro-progress on our soul's journey. And micro-progress on our soul's journey is mainly behind the veil - all I get is a human felt sense of something shifting in my body, some sense of release of "something I have been working on," and then the night rushes in and I am confronted with another knot, another bodily and mental sense of confusion, and I scurry about like the vermin filled cockroach to look for more catalyst so I can, if I am lucky, carry it only about as far as a cockroach could carry it before I let one of my sisters or brothers, human or non-human, in to ramp up the catalyst to the point where I notice it, and then, if I'm lucky, I can insulate a moment from the hurley burley to focus and go deeper and maybe something will transmute, maybe I'll resolve some little thing that will bring me a discernible sense of release.
Good Lord - here's another aside to a post that is already rambling all over hell I want to honor and appreciate our mutual maelstrom, our mutual confused journey down here in the dark, our availability to catalyst. No wonder it took gumption to come on down here. We really won't know anything until we shed our skins, and even then, we'll be in lots of different places that I can't really quite relate to, being just in my own unique, singular place.
Sister, I want to honor our catalyst at this moment. I don't claim to understand it, but I feel the passion and the commitment and the caring for lots of things - for me, for the creatures of the earth - and I really want to honor that. Thanx mainly for bringing this up, for reading this post, for bringing your multiple densities of experience to bear in processing it and in interacting with me! Wishing you a fruitful and a rewarding day with much progress on your soul's journey!
Ok, in rereading this post, I just had another aha. I don't think there's a clear distinction between "choices" and "attitudes." They're sort of a mixed up mess. One sort of does both at one time. The sources of our choices contain attitudes, predicated on our soul's purpose and a hundred other things which are either beyond the veil or are too numerous to hold in the light of clarity all at once. So it all flows from our soul's purpose, and the thousands of intermediate steps from there to any particular, given action on a particular day at a particular time, steps that we have creatively built up over a lifetime,and over many, many lifetimes of pursuing our soul purpose. Each moment is some sort of quanta that is, through time/space, linked to the billions of moments in our soulstream. So any discussion of "cruelty free food," or a decision to wear red rather than green today, is a magical episode of unbelievable complexity that reaches to the far corners of our soulstream, and is not what we logically think about it all.

Namaste Sister.
Allen.

[Meerie]

Wow, what a balanced and wise post, Feibelal. Thank you. Hope to read more from you

[unity100]

...............

with the 'soul purpose' approach, you can justify anything and be of 'light conscience'. the concepts of polarity, sto, sts become moot.

enslaving people ? soul purpose.

murdering and eating people ? soul purpose.

trying to eradicate all life on the planet ? soul purpose.

it is no coincidence that most of world dictators past, had the notion that they were chosen 'by god' in order to effect various conditions on the planet.

[@ndy]

I enjoyed your post too Feibelal - Thankyou

[feibelal]

Thank you so much for your words of appreciation. I really appreciate them. Best Wishes for the New Year to all. Allen.

[Turtle]

Every single individual on this planet that is alive and breathing, came here with their plans of "service". There are those that go to extremes in their plans, like to incarnate as a powerful leader of a country and treat their citizens like crap, in order to help push them all to make choices and polarize. Those people may cry "this is outrageous, we deserve better!" and feel that their world is cruel and unjust....and many of those same people, before incarnation, might have chose to live in that place for the very fact that it would be a tough life that will give them many many chances to polarize strongly and swiftly.

If this conceptual framework isn't enough to help ease one's consciousness about things, then at least try to enjoy the heavily burdened perspective you currently hold about the world, and don't forget to release some of the inner tension you will undoubtedly feel as you live your life, so as not to become affected negatively by it (health, mental focus, emotions).

I feel this is the wisest thing to do for those who will not accept the status of our reality...as you become distressed, NEVER forget to let that stress go periodically in a beneficial, safe way.

[Monica]

In a wild, out there, kind of way, I suppose I don't really believe in the existence of cruelty.

A trip to a slaughterhouse might change one's perspective about cruelty.

I had a house-mate who did a Perelandra garden one year, and used a pendulum to work with the nature fairies to design every aspect of the garden - when to plant what, where, and how much of it. I remember that it was a stunningly vibrant and pretty garden, and I think we didn't have any pest problems as well.

Cool! I read The Findhorn Garden many years ago, and then visited Findhorn. Such an amazingly beautiful place, right in the middle of a barren area! Communicating with the plant devas works.

So, sister, it's where you say "needlessly torture animals" that I don't quite resonate to your question.

I was referring to contributing to the suffering of animals by supporting the meat industry, when it isn't necessary.

We're all carrying out our soul's purpose.

But we have free will.

My own folks were mixed up in the Holocaust thing,

As victims or as victimizers? That would affect their views on it.

I don't think we should carry any blame for what our ancestors did, though.

but as I sit here it seems to me that Mr. H wasn't really cruel. He was rather pursuing his soul's purpose,

My dear friend Allen, you know how much I appreciate you and your friendship. But I would have to respectfully and strongly disagree with you here.

I understand that, from the Creator's perspective, we are all just carrying out our soul's purpose. But, 3D is the density of Choice. Respect for other-selves on a soul level is appropriate, even for someone like Hitler.

But that doesn't mean we have to approve of, or even withhold any discernment whatsoever, when evaluating his actions.

Sometimes their 'soul purpose' is to give us something to contrast with, as we choose the STO path.

Even Q'uo doesn't refrain from making choices. Q'uo has stated, "The STS path is a bloody path...we are not of that path." (paraphrased)

It's ok to say, "What Hitler did was cruel. It was of the bloody path. I am not of that path." which isn't putting a judgment on his soul, but it IS making a choice about what is and what is not acceptable to those choosing the STO path.

It is to be noted, too, that Hitler failed to polarize either way, but was so confused that his soul had to be tended and healed.

I came across somewhere the ties between the Bush's and the Nazi regime,

That's a whole 'nother topic there.

I don't think it's the choices that matter. I think it's our attitudes towards our choices.

Here is something I invite you to ponder:

Why is 3rd Density called The Choice?

Since I am a human mess though, in 3D right now regardless of what density I came from, wisdom, or even love, are going to be fleeting for me. The veil is too intense, and my soul purpose too maelstromey. If I were inclined to be a yogi, or some such that just meditated, then I could maybe, I think, chip away at the furor of my confusion, abate it some, but that is not my thing.

Thank you for sharing, Allen! and for opening your heart and baring your soul to us. I hope you visit Bring4th more often! We are all trying to clear the confusion. You are not alone!

Namaste