Its murder.

[unity100]

since dolphins, whales, cetaceans are in 3rd density vibration, its basically murder, killing any of them, or assisting murder, when participating or aiding any stage of the process.

judging from the quo information ....

[Ali Quadir]

I'd agree but unfortunately however murder is defined by human law.. Cetaceans are not recognized as entities that can be murdered...

[Namaste]

Indeed. This does not change when one kills any lower density life either. People justify killing to comfort themselves and avoid facing the truth. Take a flea bite for an example. The event has no meaning. Our gift, free will, is to then choose the meaning we prefer. Hence, one can frame experiences negatively, or positively. To continue...

If a flea bite induced a feeling of bliss to coarse through the body, one may choose to label the flea bite as divine gift.

As it happens, they cause discomfort. Man then chooses to label it a pest, and justifies its killing.

One then engages their free will in the action of extinguishing life, killing an aspect of themselves. The choice has been made. The choice being; "I am capable of taking the life from this soul. I choose to do so as it inconveniences me".

The other choice, which I live by, is "Namasté, little fella".

All of these choices are reflected in the infinite awareness of the one Creator. All. For those on the path of polarisation, they may want to expand unconditional love to 'lower' density life. All is equal.

Ra does not state that STO actions are applicable only to third density life.

[Ali Quadir]

You can't think like that can you?

If you take tomatoes of the land, to feed hungry children you're acting both STS and STO... Because not only do you feed the hungry, you also take food away from insects, worms and bacteria. When you choose to let fleas bite you, not only do you choose to feed the flea, you also allow diseases to spread more easily.

If you willingly destroy the land so no crops will grow there... That's evil right? What if not doing it caused your villagers to die of starvation? If you willingly cut down forests for money. That's evil right? What if without that money your family would die? Isn't it equally evil to let people die by not acting to provide for them?

If you could kill a specific man using a timemachine by giving his mother contraceptives, not only did you stop a life from existing, you prevented the second world war. So killing is right if the person is a bad person? What if he'd incidentally start a war but is firmly opposed to wars himself?

In my opinion every action is inherently neutral.

It is only the meaning that we personally ascribe to it that defines whether the action is positive or negative. This judgment is in the mind. And separate from the judgment are the causal consequences of an action. Which are in fact tied into the action.

Mother earth gives and takes. Meaning sometimes I feel warm in the sun, sometimes I feel wet and miserable in the rain. Sometimes bounty is on my path, sometimes I go hungry. Sometimes I am healthy sometimes I am ill. Is mother earth STS or STO?

No, she gives and takes in the ebb and flow of life... And so do I... I've killed fleas... As a dog owner I've probably killed whole societies of them. If I didn't my dog would have been miserable, and so would everyone around her have been.

STS and STO are very broad catagories. Helpful in every day decision making. And I do believe polarizing yourself to STO and thus being a conduit to light is not only noble but necessary. I believe choosing not to kill a flea is inherently noble as a motive. But I doubt the world truly is divided into STS or STO...

I think the question is. What are the likely consequences of your actions and are they in line with your goals?

[turtledude23]

Pathogens like bacteria and viruses are 2nd density beings like animals, we kill them all the time, consciously and unconsciously, and we need to in order to survive. Plants are also 2nd density beings like animals, we kill vegetables to survive. We have to kill some lower consciousness entities to survive, so the issue isn't killing itself but level of consciousness. Cetaceans, according to Q'uo, are as conscious as human being, if not more so, so killing them should be out of the question because it would be like killing a human missionary. A cow is more conscious than a chicken which is more conscious than a fish which, I assume, is more conscious than vegetables, which are more conscious than microscopic entities.

It comes down to intention. Even killing animals for food is okay if you need to survive and can't be fully vegetarian. Mosquitos can carry alot of diseases so its okay to kill them to survive. Its a sad reality of 3rd density that more conscious entities kill less conscious entities to survive; I doubt this is the case in our home densities but while we're here we've gotta play within the framework.

Furthermore I don't think killing is ruled out by being STO, accepting others doesn't mean standing by and letting them infringe someone else's free will, so the same standards should be applied to 2nd density beings. If an insect is biting me and I don't want it to then it'll have to face the same consequences as if a fellow human was biting me. Could it be catalyst to suffer a pain that you could stop if you wanted to? Yes, but not using the catalyst of a bug bite to its full efficiency isn't a big deal, you'll have plenty more catalyst to come later.

If you want to learn about dolphin slaughtering I recommend this movie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cove_(film) Also Star Trek IV shows the plight of whales being hunted, but since the movie was made in 1987 whaling has become alot more regulated.

[Peregrinus]

Hmmm. I just moved into a new apartment and it was infested with bed bugs. As much as I would like to think of this as a divine gift, they have been covering my little 2.5 year old girl with bites from head to toe. The first thing I thought of was how this was a catalyst and what I should learn from it, but all in all they don't bother me, just my daughter, and I simply cannot reconcile her having scars from this which would happen if I did nothing. I decided to remove them which sadly means killing them.

Do I feel badly... yes. I apologize to them for causing a break to their upward spiralling towards the Creator, but I feel this is an stos action towards my daughter well-being.

I have taken numerous steps towards her waking up bite free, and this morning was the first she did so. It means sleeping with me until I have rid the place of them fully (which looks to be a several week process), but I can live with that.

[Namaste]

You can't think like that can you?

An uncharacteristically judgemental comment from yourself, brother. Yes, one can, and one does. It appears I have uncovered an area of catalyst for yourself to contemplate.

If you take tomatoes of the land, to feed hungry children you're acting both STS and STO... Because not only do you feed the hungry, you also take food away from insects, worms and bacteria. When you choose to let fleas bite you, not only do you choose to feed the flea, you also allow diseases to spread more easily.

Consider that vegetables and fruit are both 'designed' to be eaten. In order to spread their seeds, two methods are employed. Firstly, the fruit is brightly coloured in which to grab attention, and secondly they are very flavoursome, as to encourage consumption. Once consumed, the seeds are distributed across the earth via the natural digestive/excretive system of the consumer. A natural process.

Hence when you eat fruit, you are literally eating as close to culinary perfection nature can provide, and hence fruit and vegetables are so delicious :¬)

On the latter point, a flea biting me in my house will not spread disease. You have taken a personal point and used it in another (extreme) context altogether. I am of the notion that as cultures develop, both consciously and technically, problems such as disease spread through fleas becomes negligible. In the context of an underdeveloped, starving culture, killing fleas is an entirely different circumstance.

Context is absolutely key in discussions such as these.

If you willingly destroy the land so no crops will grow there... That's evil right? What if not doing it caused your villagers to die of starvation? If you willingly cut down forests for money. That's evil right? What if without that money your family would die? Isn't it equally evil to let people die by not acting to provide for them?

If you could kill a specific man using a timemachine by giving his mother contraceptives, not only did you stop a life from existing, you prevented the second world war. So killing is right if the person is a bad person? What if he'd incidentally start a war but is firmly opposed to wars himself?

I tend to lean away from 'what if' scenarios as their initial intention holds another's perspective, i.e. "justify your beliefs with my criteria". Each of your circumstances are large, and valid, questions for discussion, one's I do not have the time to commit to.

It is only the meaning that we personally ascribe to it that defines whether the action is positive or negative. This judgment is in the mind. And separate from the judgment are the causal consequences of an action. Which are in fact tied into the action.

My point entirely. And this judgement counts. Everything we experience is catalyst, not just the odd argument, or the random large-event that shakes your foundation. Everything is catalyst. Simply weighted differently (so I would assume).

Mother earth gives and takes. Meaning sometimes I feel warm in the sun, sometimes I feel wet and miserable in the rain.

You are letting external circumstances dictate your internal emotional balance, and hence, attempting to label an external entity STS or STO. Both Bashar and Abraham talk extensively on this, their advice is invaluable and can help one remain in a positive state during 'non optimal' times.

Is mother earth STS or STO?

Gaia is STO; she provides all material in which life uses to gain experience. She is allowing great darkness to fall upon her as humanity scrabbles for the light, and is in the painful throws of childbirth, the ascent of humanity being the child.

STS and STO are very broad catagories. Helpful in every day decision making. And I do believe polarizing yourself to STO and thus being a conduit to light is not only noble but necessary. I believe choosing not to kill a flea is inherently noble as a motive. But I doubt the world truly is divided into STS or STO...

I think the question is. What are the likely consequences of your actions and are they in line with your goals?

Indeed.

As turtledude mentioned; man is also of nature and killing in which to survice is part of a natural process. I hold no qualms with that, at all. The key, in today's society, is that we have a choice. This is a liberty many do not have, and hence are locked into survival patterns.

As with Peregrinus's point, we had a similar circumstance. With great sorrow we had to remove a wasps nest from above our front door, as our neighbour suffers from anaphylactic shock (a wasp sting can be fatal). The choice to us was clear, and we made that choice consciously.

What each of us considers ethical, in terms of killing lower density life, is entirely personal and subjective. Some kill rats as they consider them vermin, others consider them pets.

I am not implying one must become a Buddhist and wear a mask (to prevent the inhalation of bacteria etc.) and sweep the floor before each step.

The crux of the point is simple; lower density life are also other Selves, consider them an aspect of Oneness.

[Protonexus]

Whales/dolphins are a part of the Akash system, their songs/vibrations literally tell stories of the history of Earth. Its is beyond even what humans have regarded as tribal oral history. Elephants have excellent memories, but whales surpass this potential.

---

They are one of the balancing agents for Earths electromagnetic grid, grounding it with the ocean conciously.

[Namaste]

Whales/dolphins are a part of the Akash system, their songs/vibrations literally tell stories of the history of Earth. Its is beyond even what humans have regarded as tribal oral history. Elephants have excellent memories, but whales surpass this potential.

I read a report recently in which scientists analysed the sounds whales made. The songs carry information simultaneously on multiple frequencies; their conclusion was that the messages contained information about the health, their offspring and the environment etc.

That, to me, is the level between human speech and telepathy. Speech is clunky, we offer only single words in a single stream. Compare that to a mutli-channel song. Who is the more advanced species again? ;¬)

Quo states that third density beings chose the dolphin form as (back then), it was heaven on earth. Unlimited movement, free food, no distractions. Highly meditative.

The mind boggles.

[Monica]

It's true that we can't avoid killing all microscopic lifeforms completely. But there is so much we CAN do, to avoid killing unnecessarily. That is the key: Is it really necessary to kill?

Even lower 2D entities have group consciousness. I make pacts with wasps, bees, ants, roaches, etc. I tell the wasps where they can build their nests (high up just under the gutters, away from doors and windows) and if they build too close to the door or window, I give them 1 week to leave. I make it very clear that if they don't leave in the appointed time, I will have no choice but to knock down the nest, rather than letting the UPS guy get stung.

It has been several years since I had to knock down a nest. Even then, there was no need to kill them. They just had the inconvenience of having to rebuild their nest somewhere else.

Then, I put up a forcefield, built by thoughtform, in the areas where they are prohibited.

In the last several years since I've been doing this, without fail, the wasps have moved within a few days whenever I've asked them to.

It has taken longer to be successful with ants and roaches. We didn't have an ant problem this year so I can't quite take the credit for that yet. I consider roaches and mosquitoes easy targets for STS infestation so I make a pact with them: I won't kill them outside or in the garage. But as I allow the ones in the garage to live, I tell them (as a conduit for their group soul, since I don't believe they have individual souls yet) that as long as they stay out of my house, I won't kill them outside or in the garage.

It has been working pretty well. I haven't seen any critters in the house in awhile.

I can't fathom killing a bee! Those with bee sting allergies must be diligent to avoid bees, but once the bee has stung, it will die anyway, so there's no reason to kill them even in the case of a sting.

Bees can detect negative emotions and stings often reflect that. I have a great reverence for bees.

Eating animals is almost never necessary. I personally believe that even most, probably all, people who feel they
'must' eat animals, could thrive on a raw vegan diet, with the proper education. Every person I've ever met who said a vegetarian diet "didn't work for them" lacked education about how to thrive on such a diet.

I certainly would not hesitate to kill the bedbugs to protect my child! I would also kill a rattlesnake if it was about to strike a child. I would save the child, no question about that.

BUT, those are hypothetical situations and encounters with such extreme situations are actually very rare. In most cases, it's simply not necessary to kill another being. It might be asking too much to expect mainstream people to quit stepping on cockroaches or swatting mosquitoes. But it's not asking too much to ask people to quit eating animals; creatures whose pain and suffering are obvious. That is something that is easily doable. And their health would improve, and the environment would improve, and the planet could sustain a much larger population...there are just so many reasons to quit eating animals, it's just a no-brainer.

This would have the added benefit of protecting our 3D brethren, the whales and dolphins. Because, why are they killed? As a consequence of the fishing industry! If people quit eating meat, there would no longer be a fishing industry.

Add yet another reason for going veg: Preventing the murder of not only 2D entities, but 3D entities as well.

Participation in themeparks like Seaworld is also participating in the slavery of 3D entities.

[zenmaster]

Participation in themeparks like Seaworld is also participating in the slavery of 3D entities.

Please, whales and dolphins are obviously higher-order mammals, like chimps, but nonetheless they are definitely 2D creatures in 2D vehicles - no matter how much we can relate to their intelligence and behavior.

[Monica]

Please, whales and dolphins are obviously higher-order mammals, like chimps, but nonetheless they are definitely 2D creatures in 2D vehicles - no matter how much we can relate to their intelligence and behavior.

Not according to Q'uo.

Q'uo states that whales and dolphins are 3D entities, like us.

[turtledude23]

Q'uo states that whales and dolphins are 3D entities, like us.

Everyone forgets about porpoises.

[Peregrinus]

Please, whales and dolphins are obviously higher-order mammals, like chimps, but nonetheless they are definitely 2D creatures in 2D vehicles - no matter how much we can relate to their intelligence and behavior.

Not according to Q'uo.

Q'uo states that whales and dolphins are 3D entities, like us.

That is correct. Q'uo said very clearly that at one time whales were 2D creatures, but those of Atlantis melded their spirits with dolphins, and as such remained in them. Eventually all whales became 3D vehicles.

According to the session 1981_1129

D: Speaking of the bottom of the ocean, what can you tell me about dolphins?

I am Latwii, and my brother, we can say many things about dolphins. We, of course, do not suppose to give biology lessons, but may remark in passing that the creatures which are known to you as dolphins are much more than animals which swim in the deep, for these creatures have, for many of your years, possessed the prize of the human form which is called the extension of the brain complex known as the frontal lobes, and, therefore, this creature does have the intelligence that exceeds many of your so-called second-density creatures, and is able to communicate with those of its own kind, and other entities as well, on a level which you may describe as telepathic.

There is more to this session, but I shall leave it to you to read the entire session at the link I provided above.

[zenmaster]

Please, whales and dolphins are obviously higher-order mammals, like chimps, but nonetheless they are definitely 2D creatures in 2D vehicles - no matter how much we can relate to their intelligence and behavior.

Not according to Q'uo.

Q'uo states that whales and dolphins are 3D entities, like us.

Yes, I can understand. I don't believe everything Carla/Q'uo says or rather, I am aware enough not to take certain statements literally, as they do tend to get carried away with their intuitions sometimes. The result is harmless, but a distinction should be made. Perhaps it's "true" in an abstract, metaphorical sense, but certainly shouldn't be taken literally.

You can see the active guesswork quite plainly when sessions are held in the aftermath of devastating, but transitory events. Almost with a goal to provide a mothering reassurance or protection, the explanation or interpretation of events invariably involves an immediate connection to or causation from the 4th density "birthing" process, or as the work of negative elements of our society as the channeler's bias may lead, for example.

Or they might interpret a new subatomic particle discovery as being the result of the manifestation of 4th density. What they don't seem to understand, is that the particle and its behavior is not new, it's just that the equipment and techniques which led to its discovery are.

Remember, it's often that Q'uo's primary job, as a matriarchal archetype, is to reaffirm what people, who have hopeful, spiritual longing nature, have suspected and want to be true - what would be a "nice" or inspiring idea. This thereby feeds them and offers something to believe in, by providing not only external, but higher-guidance validation on what their intuition may already suggest.

[Aaron]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki?search=ceta...telligence

Check out the Wikipedia article on the intelligence of dolphins. Especially check out that picture of a bottlenose dolphin brain side by side with a human brain. Don't you think that's a brain capable of sustaining a third density self aware entity? I do! Furthermore, I think it's obvious!

[zenmaster]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki?search=ceta...telligence

Check out the Wikipedia article on the intelligence of dolphins. Especially check out that picture of a bottlenose dolphin brain side by side with a human brain. Don't you think that's a brain capable of sustaining a third density self aware entity? I do! Furthermore, I think it's obvious!

I've read the article previously and it's not obvious to me. Maybe reading too much into the Hitchhiker's guide?

[unity100]

I'd agree but unfortunately however murder is defined by human law.. Cetaceans are not recognized as entities that can be murdered...

according to Ra material, the soul is responsible with anything that it gets involved in, even if it is in a baby body yet. there is no age. from the moment of inception, responsibility begins.

my understanding is that, there is no limit to responsibility. anything will be balanced. doesnt revolve even a bit on the 'human law'. it doesnt matter how the society consciousness here perceives things. it may delay things or it may make things go round about. but eventually everything will balance.

even the killing of bedbugs.

You can't think like that can you?

If you take tomatoes of the land, to feed hungry children you're acting both STS and STO... Because not only do you feed the hungry, you also take food away from insects, worms and bacteria. When you choose to let fleas bite you, not only do you choose to feed the flea, you also allow diseases to spread more easily.

If you willingly destroy the land so no crops will grow there... That's evil right? What if not doing it caused your villagers to die of starvation? If you willingly cut down forests for money. That's evil right? What if without that money your family would die? Isn't it equally evil to let people die by not acting to provide for them?

If you could kill a specific man using a timemachine by giving his mother contraceptives, not only did you stop a life from existing, you prevented the second world war. So killing is right if the person is a bad person? What if he'd incidentally start a war but is firmly opposed to wars himself?

In my opinion every action is inherently neutral.

It is only the meaning that we personally ascribe to it that defines whether the action is positive or negative. This judgment is in the mind. And separate from the judgment are the causal consequences of an action. Which are in fact tied into the action.

Mother earth gives and takes. Meaning sometimes I feel warm in the sun, sometimes I feel wet and miserable in the rain. Sometimes bounty is on my path, sometimes I go hungry. Sometimes I am healthy sometimes I am ill. Is mother earth STS or STO?

No, she gives and takes in the ebb and flow of life... And so do I... I've killed fleas... As a dog owner I've probably killed whole societies of them. If I didn't my dog would have been miserable, and so would everyone around her have been.

STS and STO are very broad catagories. Helpful in every day decision making. And I do believe polarizing yourself to STO and thus being a conduit to light is not only noble but necessary. I believe choosing not to kill a flea is inherently noble as a motive. But I doubt the world truly is divided into STS or STO...

I think the question is. What are the likely consequences of your actions and are they in line with your goals?

balance.

anything will be balanced.

---

Please, whales and dolphins are obviously higher-order mammals, like chimps, but nonetheless they are definitely 2D creatures in 2D vehicles - no matter how much we can relate to their intelligence and behavior.

that is the current planetary society's perception of things. ironically it ranks entities so that, the current dominant species, itself, stays on top of the pile, conveniently.

it doesnt need mentioning that a whopping amount of perceptions of this planetary society regarding consciousness and existence, do not hold. and continually changing.

cetaceans distinguish in between entities. they are able to distinguish a human from another entity. moreover, they are able to distinguish a human in distress, from a human that is not in distress.

dolphins do not go about rescuing people who are swimming leisurely at sea. but, the cases of dolphins rescuing drowning people are numerous in history.

even humans are not able to perceive such distress in the middle of a city on average.

the whales who are able to attack and eat anything at sea, do not attack humans.

it can be expanded into various other branches of examination. but, these are sufficient indicators to an EQ that even surpasses humans.

in regard to iq, the researches show that the cetaceans are quite capable enough, even to the point of being trained for sinking battleships by attaching the explosives strapped on their backs to the bottom of the ships, leave aside other researches in regard to cognitive capabilities of these entities.

if you put it into context, unfortunately probably 50-6% of the human population would even rank behind cetaceans in regard to iq. (not even mentioning eq). yet, noone is ranking them as 2d entities.

its just a body. body is dependent on the choice of the logos and the chemicals available within the planet, as Ra tells us. moreover, they say this is a moment's choice by the logos and can change.

[Ali Quadir]

You can't think like that can you?

An uncharacteristically judgemental comment from yourself, brother. Yes, one can, and one does. It appears I have uncovered an area of catalyst for yourself to contemplate.

I only disagreed. Not all disagreeing is a catalyst, perhaps you feel it that way, but it isn't to me. Think about that. Why do you see what I do not see? Because it is in you?

If you take tomatoes of the land, to feed hungry children you're acting both STS and STO... Because not only do you feed the hungry, you also take food away from insects, worms and bacteria. When you choose to let fleas bite you, not only do you choose to feed the flea, you also allow diseases to spread more easily.

Consider that vegetables and fruit are both 'designed' to be eaten.

Fruit perhaps, but if you eat a potato that potato will never be a plant, you've effectively killed it. According to the same logic, we're designed to be eaten by tigers. Full of crunchy goodness.

In order to spread their seeds, two methods are employed. Firstly, the fruit is brightly coloured in which to grab attention, and secondly they are very flavoursome, as to encourage consumption. Once consumed, the seeds are distributed across the earth via the natural digestive/excretive system of the consumer. A natural process.

Fruit yes, everything else, including vegetables... No... Potatos actually developed poisoned leaves to defend themselves. Clearly they are designed to not be eaten? So eating potatoes is an STS act?

I tend to lean away from 'what if' scenarios as their initial intention holds another's perspective, i.e. "justify your beliefs with my criteria". Each of your circumstances are large, and valid, questions for discussion, one's I do not have the time to commit to.

That's exactly what I use them for... Because these "what ifs" clearly illustrate the limits of your position. Like I said, STS STO, are useful concepts but they are as limited in describing the world as the colors black and white are.

Is mother earth STS or STO?

Gaia is STO; she provides all material in which life uses to gain experience. She is allowing great darkness to fall upon her as humanity scrabbles for the light, and is in the painful throws of childbirth, the ascent of humanity being the child.

Also she kills, drowns and frequently "murders" the animals and humans on her skin. She'll shrug us off if we become a pest to her. All creatures on her surface fight for survival. Most of them die violent deaths succumbing to others big or small trying to constantly eat us. To presume Gaia to be STO is clearly closing your eyes to aeons of experience humanity had with her...

Gaia is a savage garden, beautiful but brutal. Not STS or STO, just precisely what she is. No obligations, no promises, and a promise of uncertainty. Gaia is Gaia, a rock is a rock, a tiger is a tiger, and I am Me. Not STS or STO...

If I were angelic, free from all sins like a new born baby I would not survive here one day on my own without a dark guardian. One who is covered in the dirt and blood of the earth and intent on keeping me alive. You have to be in tune with the earth to survive here. Our ancestors knew this. They understood the giving and taking. And they were healthy and happy. Your body understands too by the way... Why do you have two of most organs? Because you were "designed to get damaged"...

That is the game too. We in our western world are too much locked up in our ivory towers. Presuming we know all there is to know. You never were chased by a tiger. It's easy to see nobility in a tiger if it's not your skin on the line. You probably never killed an animal with your bare hands overjoyed in the realization that this means your kids are going to live.

It is simply not realistic or in tune with nature to suggest that Peregrinus would have acted more STO by not killing the bedbugs that were tormenting his daughter. To me that indicates that perhaps we're becoming too removed from actual reality... Too caught up in the cloudy whispy visions we see in our ivory towers.

Life is life, it's hard and it's sharp, it draws your blood, bruises you, damages you. It's also awesome snugly warm sticky and just plain glorious. Bring it on. I throw myself into the fray every day. No expectations, no judgments.

@Unity, I agree, there is no limit to our responsibility. Responsibility simply means... Response-ability. You're capable of responding. IF you're capable of responding then you are response-able. This means you have to make a choice, even not choosing is a choice, it does not mean that we will be held accountable as the religions would like us to feel.

Polarization IS making that choice. And STS STO are useful concepts to accomplish this. To be response-able... But the polarization is immensely more important than the STS STO distinction.

[unity100]

of course, i dont mind the entire specie of killer whales getting eradicated from the face of the planet asap, along with other remnants of the past problematic ancient history, like sharks and so on.

[Namaste]

that is the current planetary society's perception of things. ironically it ranks entities so that, the current dominant species, itself, stays on top of the pile, conveniently.

it doesnt need mentioning that a whopping amount of perceptions of this planetary society regarding consciousness and existence, do not hold. and continually changing.

cetaceans distinguish in between entities. they are able to distinguish a human from another entity. moreover, they are able to distinguish a human in distress, from a human that is not in distress.

dolphins do not go about rescuing people who are swimming leisurely at sea. but, the cases of dolphins rescuing drowning people are numerous in history.

even humans are not able to perceive such distress in the middle of a city on average.

the whales who are able to attack and eat anything at sea, do not attack humans.

it can be expanded into various other branches of examination. but, these are sufficient indicators to an EQ that even surpasses humans.

its just a body. body is dependent on the choice of the logos and the chemicals available within the planet, as Ra tells us. moreover, they say this is a moment's choice by the logos and can change.

Great points.

I only disagreed. Not all disagreeing is a catalyst, perhaps you feel it that way, but it isn't to me. Think about that. Why do you see what I do not see? Because it is in you?

The language used implied non-acceptance; "you can't think like that can you?" is a predominantly negatively phrased statement. As an example, an accepting, positive reply would have been "An interesting perspective!". Language does indeed imply, by nature, subjective understanding.

Fruit yes, everything else, including vegetables... No... Potatos actually developed poisoned leaves to defend themselves. Clearly they are designed to not be eaten? So eating potatoes is an STS act?

You're missing the point brother. Again, we go back to context.

Eating a vegetable to survive is an entirely different context/circumstance to choosing to unnecessarily kill another life.

Gaia is a savage garden, beautiful but brutal. Not STS or STO, just precisely what she is. No obligations, no promises, and a promise of uncertainty. Gaia is Gaia, a rock is a rock, a tiger is a tiger, and I am Me. Not STS or STO...

If I were angelic, free from all sins like a new born baby I would not survive here one day on my own without a dark guardian. One who is covered in the dirt and blood of the earth and intent on keeping me alive. You have to be in tune with the earth to survive here. Our ancestors knew this. They understood the giving and taking. And they were healthy and happy. Your body understands too by the way... Why do you have two of most organs? Because you were "designed to get damaged"...

Here we have different personal truths. Second density, and those who choose in third density is brutal. Gaia isn't. It's part of the evolutionary process. Gaia provides the elements needed for experience. She can shrug us off, but it would be a considerable assumption to think she does that on a whim. It's more likely to be linked to a cosmic cycle.

That is the game too. We in our western world are too much locked up in our ivory towers. Presuming we know all there is to know. You never were chased by a tiger. It's easy to see nobility in a tiger if it's not your skin on the line. You probably never killed an animal with your bare hands overjoyed in the realization that this means your kids are going to live.

Your assumption limited in the fact it references only a single lifetime. In my personal understanding, the soul is infinite, I would imagine I have experienced much pain, death, survival and bliss over a multitude of lifetimes. As has everybody. Yet we've incarnated in our specific circumstances for a specific reason. The lessons of survival have been learnt, to a degree. They would have to be if one is a Wanderer. In this lifetime, which just happens to 'coincide' with 2012, many Wanderers are here to offer love and light. That can include the gratitude for the divine spirit in all beings, and all matter.

It is simply not realistic or in tune with nature to suggest that Peregrinus would have acted more STO by not killing the bedbugs that were tormenting his daughter. To me that indicates that perhaps we're becoming too removed from actual reality... Too caught up in the cloudy whispy visions we see in our ivory towers.

You have formulated that notion in your imagination, I did not imply that brother. Did you not read my post about choosing to remove a wasps nest? I think you are misinterpreting my opinion.

Just to be sure, I will re-iterate my point. Polarisation towards STO includes life in all densities, not just humans. We each choose to label aspects of life more valuable than others; i.e. what is acceptable to kill and what is not. We each have the right to choose our own path, and it all counts. All is perfect for each person.

Peace, brothers and sisters :¬)

[zenmaster]

Please, whales and dolphins are obviously higher-order mammals, like chimps, but nonetheless they are definitely 2D creatures in 2D vehicles - no matter how much we can relate to their intelligence and behavior.

that is the current planetary society's perception of things. ironically it ranks entities so that, the current dominant species, itself, stays on top of the pile, conveniently.

it doesnt need mentioning that a whopping amount of perceptions of this planetary society regarding consciousness and existence, do not hold. and continually changing.

cetaceans distinguish in between entities. they are able to distinguish a human from another entity. moreover, they are able to distinguish a human in distress, from a human that is not in distress.

dolphins do not go about rescuing people who are swimming leisurely at sea. but, the cases of dolphins rescuing drowning people are numerous in history.

even humans are not able to perceive such distress in the middle of a city on average.

the whales who are able to attack and eat anything at sea, do not attack humans.

it can be expanded into various other branches of examination. but, these are sufficient indicators to an EQ that even surpasses humans.

in regard to iq, the researches show that the cetaceans are quite capable enough, even to the point of being trained for sinking battleships by attaching the explosives strapped on their backs to the bottom of the ships, leave aside other researches in regard to cognitive capabilities of these entities.

if you put it into context, unfortunately probably 50-6% of the human population would even rank behind cetaceans in regard to iq. (not even mentioning eq). yet, noone is ranking them as 2d entities.

its just a body. body is dependent on the choice of the logos and the chemicals available within the planet, as Ra tells us. moreover, they say this is a moment's choice by the logos and can change.

I understand your points and there is no doubt they are intelligent (so are apes and border collies) and have protected people. But note how we project those qualities that we like on the whole and blindly see anomalous behavior as the norm.

We also know the 3rd density is about having the opportunity to make choices, experience catalyst, self-reflection, archetypal patterning, tool-making, culture, creativity, planning for the future, etc. In the wild, dolphins are parasite-ridden creatures with a 20-year lifespan. Killer whales (also Cetaceans) have been documented hunting and eating dolphins. Dolphins will attack and kill other Cetaceans: porpoises (which don't compete for same food supply). Male dolphins normally bite and scar each other in competition for females. Dolphins will kill their own pups.

We can admire and protect them, but they are what they are. Maybe their vehicles are inhabitable by 3rd density consciousness - but it would seem to be a wasteful investment.

[unity100]

I understand your points and there is no doubt they are intelligent (so are apes and border collies) and have protected people. But note how we project those qualities that we like on the whole and blindly see anomalous behavior as the norm.

We also know the 3rd density is about having the opportunity to make choices, experience catalyst, self-reflection, archetypal patterning, tool-making, culture, creativity, planning for the future, etc. In the wild, dolphins are parasite-ridden creatures with a 20-year lifespan. Killer whales (also Cetaceans) have been documented hunting and eating dolphins. Dolphins will attack and kill other Cetaceans: porpoises (which don't compete for same food supply). Male dolphins normally bite and scar each other in competition for females. Dolphins will kill their own pups.

there are still tribes cannibalizing in africa and south america.

a goodly amount of world population would not qualify higher than various octopi or many cetaceans even with the iq scales we are deeming intelligent in our societal science.

dolphin/cetacean intelligence is not comparable to colis. you cant even reasonably communicate with apes to the extent of them being able to cooperatively participate in complex interactions. lack of communication is not an indicator of lack of intelligence, however, existence of communication is an indicator of intelligence. cetaceans can mount shows and interact/communicate intelligently with their caretakers.

if you had to live in the wild, you would be parasite ridden too. the current state of world civilization has only been possible due to excessive amounts of information transferred (undeservedly and before its time) to this planet through waves of wanderers incarnating. had there been no need for such a wanderer operation, this world would also follow similar lines with other 3d worlds.

even still, just 150 years ago people were also living pest ridden lives. (even though the wanderer waves had started earlier).

as a sidenote, i have expressed that extinction of killer whales would be fit and proper, along with many other species on this planet.

[Ali Quadir]

I only disagreed. Not all disagreeing is a catalyst, perhaps you feel it that way, but it isn't to me. Think about that. Why do you see what I do not see? Because it is in you?

The language used implied non-acceptance;

My point was precisely that you cannot think like that. Just like you cannot drive up a 60 degrees slope. You end up in impossible situations. That's not catalyst it is reality.

I mentioned some of those situations.

Eating a vegetable to survive is an entirely different context/circumstance to choosing to unnecessarily kill another life.

Eating a vegetable is semantically practically the same as choosing to kill another life out of necessity. So it seems that you are correct. You implied earlier however that eating vegetables was somehow objectively better than eating something else since vegetables and fruits were made to be eaten by us. No they're not, fruit maybe and even then not all of the fruit, but vegetables certainly not. they're organisms who fight to survive just like we do.

I'm a vegetarian, but to me that's subjective opinion.

Another arbitrary measurement of a creatures advancedness is the amount of genes it has in it's DNA... There is a flower in Japan that's about 10 times more complex than we are. We suppose it does not think, it has no brain. But it is a highly advanced entity none the less. If you wiped it out and started it from fresh assuming the same path could be walked again it would take more generations to evolve than we did. Why do we not pick height? Weight? Speed? Because we don't have those things, as monkeys we value social aptitude and intelligence.

Here we have different personal truths. Second density, and those who choose in third density is brutal. Gaia isn't. It's part of the evolutionary process. Gaia provides the elements needed for experience. She can shrug us off, but it would be a considerable assumption to think she does that on a whim. It's more likely to be linked to a cosmic cycle.

Yep, like you said, personal truths. Not objective, but subjective, defined by your opinion. Arbitrary... You're saying the same now, but not earlier.

I object to the notion of seeing Gaia as some sort of anthromorphized ball of clay. Most of all creatures on earth die through violence or disaster. To claim that Gaia is innocent, knows nothing about that is in my opinion naive. It discredits the thousands of generations of indiginous people that this planet has known. And is right back in the christian/muslim/jewish mindset. Where God is great and all misery comes from the devil...

Can a creature not be great and terrible at the same time? We are moral, I can deal with that, but why must we impose morality on everything around us? What is the problem in that? It's a fact of life that if you want to walk into the wilderness and eat what Gaia feeds you, survive truly as one of her children. You'd better come prepared. Most of us would not last 2 weeks. Gaia is brutal, no amount of love and light is going to change what she is.

On what are we basing the assumption that she truly lovingly cares about us as individuals?

[Namaste]

It's true that we can't avoid killing all microscopic lifeforms completely. But there is so much we CAN do, to avoid killing unnecessarily. That is the key: Is it really necessary to kill?

Even lower 2D entities have group consciousness. I make pacts with wasps, bees, ants, roaches, etc. I tell the wasps where they can build their nests (high up just under the gutters, away from doors and windows) and if they build too close to the door or window, I give them 1 week to leave. I make it very clear that if they don't leave in the appointed time, I will have no choice but to knock down the nest, rather than letting the UPS guy get stung.

It has been several years since I had to knock down a nest. Even then, there was no need to kill them. They just had the inconvenience of having to rebuild their nest somewhere else.

Then, I put up a forcefield, built by thoughtform, in the areas where they are prohibited.

In the last several years since I've been doing this, without fail, the wasps have moved within a few days whenever I've asked them to.

Fascinating! I will most certainly be employing this technique - thank you.

I can't fathom killing a bee! Those with bee sting allergies must be diligent to avoid bees, but once the bee has stung, it will die anyway, so there's no reason to kill them even in the case of a sting.

Bees can detect negative emotions and stings often reflect that. I have a great reverence for bees.

I feel the same. We plant bee-friendly flora in our back garden, it's wonderful to see so many. They are incredibly peaceful.

Every person I've ever met who said a vegetarian diet "didn't work for them" lacked education about how to thrive on such a diet.

Indeed, this was, and still is, an area of self education. It's taken me a while to get to the odd bit of free range organic 'happy' chicken, and the odd bit of fish. I will factor these out in time with replacements which match the protein and nutritional value. Any suggestions? :¬)

Participation in themeparks like Seaworld is also participating in the slavery of 3D entities.

The same applies to 2D life. Zoos are prisons. In some cases, a zoo can offer a better life for an animal, but the ratio is much in favour of the former, as many are low tech, too small and functionally inadequate.

L&L

---

Another arbitrary measurement of a creatures advancedness is the amount of genes it has in it's DNA... There is a flower in Japan that's about 10 times more complex than we are. We suppose it does not think, it has no brain. But it is a highly advanced entity none the less. If you wiped it out and started it from fresh assuming the same path could be walked again it would take more generations to evolve than we did. Why do we not pick height? Weight? Speed? Because we don't have those things, as monkeys we value social aptitude and intelligence.

Agreed.

I object to the notion of seeing Gaia as some sort of anthromorphized ball of clay. Most of all creatures on earth die through violence or disaster. To claim that Gaia is innocent, knows nothing about that is in my opinion naive. It discredits the thousands of generations of indiginous people that this planet has known. And is right back in the christian/muslim/jewish mindset. Where God is great and all misery comes from the devil...

Perhaps I'll try to rephrase my beliefs. Each of us here, and all life is part of Gaia. She experiences what we experience. She provides first, second and third density (and of course, higher) life the gift of experience. These experiences can be tough, easy, happy, sad, fearful or loving. Such is the nature of All That Is; experiencing all that can be experienced. I never stated Gaia knew nothing of this, and it certainly does not discredit any other life forms.

My opinion that Gaia is STO stems from the fact her existence helps trillions upon trillions (an infinite amount?) of life forms gather experience. STS and STO experience, inclusive of both the dark and the light. Humanity is evolving, we're moving towards the light and unity. This implies that darkness is a temporary aspect of the ineffable. This is because darkness is created within the framework of love and light. Gaia is hurting, the negative/separate/greed nature (born of free will) of man has caused much harm, and this suffering has been accepted (STO action), and she still proves each of us with unconditional love and energy (STO action). She does this so we can evolve. Service to others in many aspects. Nature can be brutal; it's all part of experience.

L&L

[Monica]

my understanding is that, there is no limit to responsibility. anything will be balanced. doesnt revolve even a bit on the 'human law' it doesnt matter how the society consciousness here perceives things.

Human laws are irrelevant. They come and go. Just a century and a half ago, human slavery was legal in the US. I predict that, a century from now, humans will be aghast that the slaughter of animals was once legal. The same for barbaric medical practices.

it may delay things or it may make things go round about. but eventually everything will balance.

even the killing of bedbugs.

Here's a thought: Maybe back when we were bedbugs and biting the children of Ra, we got snuffed out, to protect their children. And now Ra is helping us...


And someday, we will, in turn, help the entities who were once bedbugs!

The situation of infestations can also be looked at another way:

We know from Ra that higher STS entities often utilize lower 2D entities to do their bidding. They can manipulate the 2D entities to accomplish a negative greeting. Thus, if a person is susceptible for some reason, the STS entities can take advantage of that, by using 2D bacteria, viruses, and even cockroaches or mosquitoes.

Lower 2D entities aren't yet sentient so they couldn't have given permission on an individual basis to be used in such a way, but I would think their group soul would have to have given permission on some level.

Thus, if bedbugs, cockroaches, mosquitoes, viruses, bacteria, etc. have agreed to do the bidding of higher STS entities, then it logically follows that they are probably on their way to being STS entities themselves. (In contrast to, say, honeybees who are likely destined to be STO entities.)

Even at the level of bugs, there are 'beneficial' insects and 'bad' insects...the precursors to STO and STS?

Thus, if the bedbugs are biting, that action is an aggressive, inherently STS act. And they have chosen a physical vehicle which doesn't readily lend itself to harmless remove. Ie. you can't just remove bedbugs without killing them, as you can remove a wasp or bee by catching it and setting it free outside. Bedbugs infest the sheets and bedding, so there's simply no way to remove them and all their eggs. Just as there is no way to remove an infection from one's body without killing it.

So, given a choice between letting an obviously STS infestation (bedbugs) who is aggressively attacking a child, and letting the STS population of bugs live, I wouldn't hesitate in removing the infestation, to save the child.

Just as I would not hesitate to use a disinfectant to kill a raging infection in a cat's wound. The infection is threatening the cat's life. When I pour disinfectant over the wound, I am killing bacteria, to save the cat.

If it were possible to not take any life, I would do it. But that is not possible when dealing with lower 2D bacteria, or even bedbugs. Thus, I would have no choice but to kill the critters, to save the cat.

Now, those bedbugs/mosquitoes/viruses/bacteria were all aggressive. They attacked. So maybe their initial action of being aggressive, is being balanced by our action of killing them.

When dealing with the question of balance, it isn't always readily apparent, since one does not always know what the original action was.

cetaceans distinguish in between entities. they are able to distinguish a human from another entity. moreover, they are able to distinguish a human in distress, from a human that is not in distress.

dolphins do not go about rescuing people who are swimming leisurely at sea. but, the cases of dolphins rescuing drowning people are numerous in history.

even humans are not able to perceive such distress in the middle of a city on average.

the whales who are able to attack and eat anything at sea, do not attack humans.

it can be expanded into various other branches of examination. but, these are sufficient indicators to an EQ that even surpasses humans.

Absolutely! Moreover, dolphins are able to distinguish humans in distress without the benefit of sound and probably without the benefit of sight either. Dolphins somehow know when a human is in distress, even though they have not seen nor heard the person's cries for help.

How did they know?

And why do they help, despite knowing that humans have killed and enslaved their brethren?

So they furthermore distinguish between humans as a species, and individual humans, because they apparently know that this individual human who is flailing about, isn't the same human who caught the dolphin's cousin in the tuna net last week.

The dolphin is showing compassion, a sure sign of higher evolution.

in regard to iq, the researches show that the cetaceans are quite capable enough, even to the point of being trained for sinking battleships by attaching the explosives strapped on their backs to the bottom of the ships, leave aside other researches in regard to cognitive capabilities of these entities.

This I find rather disturbing. Why are the dolphins, who are normally peaceful, agreeing to participate in acts of violence? Do they have a choice?

It's also important to note that the only acts of aggression ever attributed to dolphins have been in adverse conditions, as in captivity. Dolphins in captivity behave differently from wild dolphins.

Which is understandable. Humans would do the same. Normally peaceful humans are known to do heinous things in adverse circumstances.

if you put it into context, unfortunately probably 50-6% of the human population would even rank behind cetaceans in regard to iq. (not even mentioning eq). yet, noone is ranking them as 2d entities.

Some % of humans rank lower in intelligence than some dogs.

its just a body. body is dependent on the choice of the logos and the chemicals available within the planet, as Ra tells us. moreover, they say this is a moment's choice by the logos and can change.

That's right. It is presumptuous to judge an entity as being 'merely 2D' just because its body is different from ours. It is solely a human invention that all other species are 'animals' and humans somehow above all else. It is the height of human arrogance, and will be brought to light when ET's make their appearance. What if ET's who are smarter than humans considered humans as 'just animals'?

---

of course, i dont mind the entire specie of killer whales getting eradicated from the face of the planet asap, along with other remnants of the past problematic ancient history, like sharks and so on.

And cockroaches! Don't forget cockroaches! I wouldn't mind seeing them eradicated!

Speaking of killer whales, I find them puzzling. They are, presumably, 3D entities also. And yet they KILL...they kill dolphins, and even humans, although that usually happens in captivity.

What do you think of that? Are they 3D entities who have chosen STS? Or are they like humans...some are benevolent, STO...while others of their species are STS?

We wouldn't want ET's judging the entire human race by citing examples of Hitler or Saddam or Cheney, right? So maybe many, if not most, killer whales are STO, but they just have their bad ones too, just like humans.

We tend to think of a species of 'animal' has having certain characteristics...but whales aren't animals...they're 3D entities.

Cockroaches are all basically the same. They're not individuated yet. So a cockroach behaves like every other cockroach, since they are all being controlled by the same group mind.

But a 'killer' whale is acting as an individual. That killer whale might be the equivalent of a serial killer in the human domain. There might be other whales of the same species who are the equivalent of Gandhi.

It just so happens that there are more Gandhi's in the dolphin population, and more Cheney's in the killer whale population, apparently.

---

Second density, and those who choose in third density is brutal. Gaia isn't. It's part of the evolutionary process. Gaia provides the elements needed for experience. She can shrug us off, but it would be a considerable assumption to think she does that on a whim. It's more likely to be linked to a cosmic cycle.

Exactly.

I would imagine I have experienced much pain, death, survival and bliss over a multitude of lifetimes. As has everybody. Yet we've incarnated in our specific circumstances for a specific reason. The lessons of survival have been learnt, to a degree. They would have to be if one is a Wanderer. In this lifetime, which just happens to 'coincide' with 2012, many Wanderers are here to offer love and light. That can include the gratitude for the divine spirit in all beings, and all matter.

Well said!

Most of us don't have to deal with survival issues like that. At least not on a daily basis. For us, survival is more about economic survival than being chased by a tiger.

It is simply not realistic or in tune with nature to suggest that Peregrinus would have acted more STO by not killing the bedbugs that were tormenting his daughter. To me that indicates that perhaps we're becoming too removed from actual reality... Too caught up in the cloudy whispy visions we see in our ivory towers.

You have formulated that notion in your imagination, I did not imply that brother. Did you not read my post about choosing to remove a wasps nest? I think you are misinterpreting my opinion.

Agreed!

For the record, NO ONE has implied anything about Peregrinus' action in removing the bedbugs. Saying that any such action might require balance, does not in any way cast judgment upon said action.

I would definitely remove the bedbugs, ie. kill them, to save my child from being bitten. I would also, at the same time, take responsibility for that action. At the very least, by psychically reaching out to them and explaining the reason for my action. Same as I would do with any negative entity whose services I don't want. The only difference here is that their physical vehicle is being removed. That is unfortunate but cannot always be helped.

If it is possible to remove them without killing them, I would do so. But that isn't always possible with infestations.

Peregrinus, I hope it's clear that no one is judging you! Your situation has provided an excellent example for discussing such dilemmas. Thank you for sharing it!

Just to be sure, I will re-iterate my point. Polarisation towards STO includes life in all densities, not just humans.

At least up to 6D, anyway. I had never really thought about polarization occurring below 3D before, but now that I think about it, as I said in my last post, I now conclude that infestations of pests are likely lower 2D entities who are beginning their polarization process to STS. They aren't consciously choosing as individuals yet, but on some level, their group souls are making themselves available to higher STS entities. So that must be part of their polarization process.

[Experience You]

With all due respect to you all, everyone here(including me) has a bias in some direction and moral beliefs regarding all of them.

Nobody here is right or wrong, we are just seeing what we want to see. We can find evidence supporting any other side of the arguments.

My instance is simple to allow All That Is and go towards what feels good to me.
That is all i can do, i can't control reality and neither would want to if i could. I will simply focus my life and thoughts towards what feels good to me.

Peace and love
E

Happy Holidays ;D

[Monica]

My point was precisely that you cannot think like that. Just like you cannot drive up a 60 degrees slope. You end up in impossible situations. That's not catalyst it is reality.

Respectfully, Ali, think like what? In the way that you thought he was thinking? If so, then the person clearly IS thinking 'like that.' Which means, one CAN 'think like that.'

Thought come in myriad forms.

Eating a vegetable is semantically practically the same as choosing to kill another life out of necessity. So it seems that you are correct. You implied earlier however that eating vegetables was somehow objectively better than eating something else since vegetables and fruits were made to be eaten by us. No they're not, fruit maybe and even then not all of the fruit, but vegetables certainly not. they're organisms who fight to survive just like we do.

Looks like a good time to link to our sister thread:

Life on Planet Earth > In regards to eating meat

...which has some excellent discussion of these issues and overlaps this one.

Another arbitrary measurement of a creatures advancedness is the amount of genes it has in it's DNA...

Admittedly arbitrary? That is a human-based criteria.

According to humans' criteria for intelligence, much less sentience, plants aren't even on the map. And yet Ra tells us that some trees have attained sufficient sentience to become 3D entities.

There is a flower in Japan that's about 10 times more complex than we are. We suppose it does not think, it has no brain. But it is a highly advanced entity none the less.

Physically advanced does not necessarily indicate sentience.

If you wiped it out and started it from fresh assuming the same path could be walked again it would take more generations to evolve than we did.

Evolve in what way? Such a reference to evolution refers to only physical evolution. That flower might be more highly evolved than we are, physically, but is it sentient?

Why do we not pick height? Weight? Speed? Because we don't have those things, as monkeys we value social aptitude and intelligence.

Well, again respectfully, those are the arguments put forth by the scientific community, who do not recognize the spiritual component. They view us as just animals with certain specializations due to evolution, and one specialization is no different from any other. Sentience is not acknowledged nor is any spiritual component at all.

I object to the notion of seeing Gaia as some sort of anthromorphized ball of clay.

Are you saying you don't consider Gaia sentient? Or do you consider Gaia sentient but way beyond humans' notions of good/evil etc.?

Most of all creatures on earth die through violence or disaster. To claim that Gaia is innocent, knows nothing about that is in my opinion naive. It discredits the thousands of generations of indiginous people that this planet has known. And is right back in the christian/muslim/jewish mindset. Where God is great and all misery comes from the devil...

We know from Ra that the higher densities have a much better understanding of catalyst and don't view it with the same good/bad simplicity as the religions do.

I don't see Gaia as 'innocent' which implies naivete but do see Gaia as maternal and yet dispassionate at the same time. Gaia has graciously provided a schoolyard for juvenile delinquents to repeat 3rd grade, and at the risk of great peril to Gaia herself.

This choice must be an act of great love on Gaia's part.

The mechanisms of the classroom are subject to the aptitude of the students.

Can a creature not be great and terrible at the same time? We are moral, I can deal with that, but why must we impose morality on everything around us? What is the problem in that? It's a fact of life that if you want to walk into the wilderness and eat what Gaia feeds you, survive truly as one of her children. You'd better come prepared. Most of us would not last 2 weeks. Gaia is brutal, no amount of love and light is going to change what she is.

Gaia is also generous and lays out bounty on her table. We just have to understand her and how to partake of that bounty.

As I am learning about wild foraging, I am looking around at the city, and am amazed at how much bounty there is, right under people's noses, and they are throwing it all away. Wild weeds 20 times more nutritious than storebought vegetables, being killed with weedkillers...nutritious acorns being crushed by cars, raked up and thrown out in the trash, denying even the squirrels their food.

On what are we basing the assumption that she truly lovingly cares about us as individuals?

We have no way of knowing whether Gaia cares about each of us as an individual, but we do have enough data to conclude that she cares about the souls who need such a school, at this point in their development, for Gaia has endured much pain due to offering herself in service to us.

[Ali Quadir]

My point was precisely that you cannot think like that. Just like you cannot drive up a 60 degrees slope. You end up in impossible situations. That's not catalyst it is reality.

Respectfully, Ali, think like what? In the way that you thought he was thinking? If so, then the person clearly IS thinking 'like that.' Which means, one CAN 'think like that.'

This was my opening to my message... So thinking in a way that takes STS and STO to the extremes exactly like the examples I have given.

Another arbitrary measurement of a creatures advancedness is the amount of genes it has in it's DNA...

Admittedly arbitrary? That is a human-based criteria.

Uhhuh, just like I suggest all criteria are arbitrary.

According to humans' criteria for intelligence, much less sentience, plants aren't even on the map. And yet Ra tells us that some trees have attained sufficient sentience to become 3D entities.

Clearly...

There is a flower in Japan that's about 10 times more complex than we are. We suppose it does not think, it has no brain. But it is a highly advanced entity none the less.

Physically advanced does not necessarily indicate sentience.

I gather that sentience is your arbitrary criteria? My point is that all the criteria used are arbitrary. Why would sentience be THE ultimate attribute to measure the value of a life form in? If that were true, fleas would worship us. They do not care about our sentience. Only other sentient beings do.. Therefore sentience is not an objective virtue but a subjective one.

Why do we not pick height? Weight? Speed? Because we don't have those things, as monkeys we value social aptitude and intelligence.

Well, again respectfully, those are the arguments put forth by the scientific community

I would reason that these values of social aptitude and intelligence existed before science. Science just didn't question them.

I object to the notion of seeing Gaia as some sort of anthromorphized ball of clay.

Are you saying you don't consider Gaia sentient? Or do you consider Gaia sentient but way beyond humans' notions of good/evil etc.?

No I am saying I object to pretending she's a human in a big pearshaped form. Gaia does not have our brain, so she clearly thinks differently if she thinks at all I encountered her great wisdom, but I haven't had anything resembling this talk. Trees don't think yet they are sentient. Fungi are probably the lowest life forms we can see. In some cases it's just cave slime. But it is sentient. But that doesn't mean it's like us in every way... Just in some ways.

What I am saying is that although the human form is a common expression it's not the only one.

Most of all creatures on earth die through violence or disaster. To claim that Gaia is innocent, knows nothing about that is in my opinion naive. It discredits the thousands of generations of indiginous people that this planet has known. And is right back in the christian/muslim/jewish mindset. Where God is great and all misery comes from the devil...

We know from Ra that the higher densities have a much better understanding of catalyst and don't view it with the same good/bad simplicity as the religions do.

That's my point really... It is a force of nature, we perceive it from our perspective, but that's not the only perspective.

I don't see Gaia as 'innocent' which implies naivete but do see Gaia as maternal and yet dispassionate at the same time. Gaia has graciously provided a schoolyard for juvenile delinquents to repeat 3rd grade, and at the risk of great peril to Gaia herself.

This choice must be an act of great love on Gaia's part.

Life is love. Love is another one of those nearly universal values. You're presupposing that she doesn't feel us as her self. My body is not me, but when I take care of it this is not an act of selfless love. I'm not saying that that's what it is, I'm only saying you're subconsciously providing meaning to her act from a perspective that is not hers.

Can a creature not be great and terrible at the same time? We are moral, I can deal with that, but why must we impose morality on everything around us? What is the problem in that? It's a fact of life that if you want to walk into the wilderness and eat what Gaia feeds you, survive truly as one of her children. You'd better come prepared. Most of us would not last 2 weeks. Gaia is brutal, no amount of love and light is going to change what she is.

Gaia is also generous and lays out bounty on her table. We just have to understand her and how to partake of that bounty.

Precisely. Now you're acknowledging that she is in some potential way beyond our current understanding.

I don't think thinking about her as we think of ourselves is the answer. A child before two years old has no real self image it doesn't recognize itself in front of a mirror. So even in a human life this enormous change in perspective takes place.

On what are we basing the assumption that she truly lovingly cares about us as individuals?

We have no way of knowing whether Gaia cares about each of us as an individual, but we do have enough data to conclude that she cares about the souls who need such a school, at this point in their development, for Gaia has endured much pain due to offering herself in service to us.

In what way? Gaia has also undergone great changes in her lifetime. Before she even gets damaged we'll long be dead. We could not live in her earlier stages yet she clearly could. We are at any rate more of a threat to ourselves than to her. However if we are part of her. And she perceives our health as her health. Like a mother would. But this still does not mean she is not a savage garden. This is how it has to be. You seem to dislike the idea of the "savage garden" But do you judge the lion who preys on the zebra as well? As souls we entered in this condition under our own free will. We knew we would eventually die here. However from a souls perspective this is simply part of the process.

A birthing process is also the most natural thing in existence. It and the death process are the pillars of our particular creation.

[Turtle]

Nothing dies, just gets transformed.

The intent behind your action, is what determines what kind of inner change, if any, will happen to yourself.