Confederation and meat consumption

[Infinite]

One of the Confederation's informations (from L/L Research) which I disagree is about meat consumption. They didn't make clear that eat meat is a STS act (I belive that in an universe of unity, eat a brother is a clearly STS act). So, I stayed disapoint with they opinion. Another question is about the effects of the meat on the energetic fields or aura. The meat densify our energies (Jasmuheen, theosophists and many other spiritualistic sources talks about this). They did ignored this point.

Here is a channeling session which they talked about this:

http://www.llresearch.org/transcripts/is..._1016.aspx


What you think?

[Cyan]

We are carrion eaters, not meat eaters, to be a meat eater you would need to eat the farmer, to be a carrion eater is to eat any meat provided by the farmers. In short, the animals we eat of feed themselves to us, not hunted by us. For more, read on animals becoming diseased in mass to prevent consumption of one or more types of meat.

[xise]

This quotation has been discussed elsewhere on the forum, but to reiterate what I said, I think the answer isn't accurate because the question was leading and inaccurate:

"indirectly participating in activities which result in pain and suffering for others...We would like to select one particular instance of this principle for our focus. It is understood among many spiritual seekers that except in cases of humane slaughter our second-density friends are routinely mistreated and abused in the process of converting their physical bodies into our meat foodstuffs"

Basic supply and demand economics, but if you buy a product knowing how it's made, thereby increasing the demand and decreasing its supply, you are directly participating in the process because you give money to the person who has done it to provide for what is in front of you, and your money incentivizes it being done in the future. That's why I think Q'uo had to tiptoe around the free will preset beliefs in the question and give an inaccurate answer.

[Jade]

Eating animals is one of those really large catalysts on our planet that the Confederation cannot infringe upon. Telling people they shouldn't eat animals would eliminate a ton of catalyst that the collective is currently undergoing. Carla struggled with diet and eating healthy throughout her whole life, therefore it was a subject that was difficult for her to channel.

I believe Ra was pretty clear that eating animal flesh, especially that which has come from farming, was NOT ideal.

18.4 Questioner: Are there any foods that are helpful or harmful that the instrument might eat?

Ra: I am Ra. This instrument has body complex distortion towards ill health in the distortion direction corrected best by ingestion of the foodstuffs of your grains and your vegetables, as you call them. However, this is extremely unimportant when regarded as an aid with equality to other aids such as attitude which this instrument has in abundance. It, however, aids the vital energies of this instrument, with less distortion towards ill health, to ingest foodstuffs in the above manner with occasional ingestion of what you call your meats, due to the instrument’s need to lessen the distortion towards low vital energy.

40.14 Questioner: In dietary matters, what would be the foods that one would include and what would be the foods that one would exclude in a general way for the most or the greatest care of one’s bodily complex?

Ra: I am Ra. Firstly, we underline and emphasize that this information is not to be understood literally but as a link or psychological nudge for the body and the mind and spirit. Thus it is the care and respect for the self that is the true thing of importance. In this light we may iterate the basic information given for this instrument’s diet. The vegetables, the fruits, the grains, and to the extent necessary for the individual metabolism, the animal products. These are those substances showing respect for the self. In addition, though this has not been mentioned, for this instrument is not in need of purification, those entities in need of purging the self of a poison thought-form or emotion complex do well to take care in following a program of careful fasting until the destructive thought-form has been purged analogously with the by-products of ridding the physical vehicle of excess material. Again you see the value not to the body complex but used as a link for the mind and spirit. Thus self reveals self to self.

[83.28]We offer the following, not to infringe upon your free will, but because this instrument has specifically requested information as to its maintenance and the support group does so at this querying. We may suggest that the instrument has two areas of potential distortion, both of which may be aided in the bodily sense by the ingestion of those things which seem to the instrument to be desirable. We do not suggest any hard and fast rulings of diet although we may suggest the virtue of the liquids. The instrument has an increasing ability to sense that which will aid its bodily complex. It is being aided by affirmations and also by the light which is the food of the density of resting.

We may ask the support group to monitor the instrument as always so that in the case of the desire for the more complex proteins that which is the least distorted might be offered to the bodily complex which is indeed at this time potentially capable of greatly increased distortion.

84.2 Questioner: In the last session you mentioned least distorted complex protein in that the body complex of the instrument was capable of greatly increased distortion. Would you define the protein of which you spoke and we would like to know, increased distortion in which direction, towards health or ill-health?

Ra: I am Ra. We were, in the cautionary statement about complex protein, referring to the distortions of the animal protein which has been slaughtered and preservatives added in order to maintain the acceptability to your peoples of this non-living, physical material. It is well to attempt to find those items which are fresh and of the best quality possible in order to avoid increasing this particular entity’s distortions which may be loosely termed allergic.

We were speaking of the distortion towards disease which is potential at this space/time.

84.3 Questioner: What disease in particular were you speaking of and what would be its cause?

Ra: I am Ra. One disease, as you call this distortion, is that of the arthritis and the lupus erythematosus. The cause of this complex of distortions is, at base, pre-incarnative. We refrain from determining the other distortion potential at this space/time due to our desire to maintain the free will of this group. Affirmations may yet cause this difficulty to resolve itself. Therefore, we simply encouraged the general care with the diet with the instructions about allergy, as you call this quite complex distortion of the mind and body complexes.

102.16 Questioner: Would Ra please mention which foods are highly probable in not causing any spasming in the instrument’s digestive system?

Ra: I am Ra. The liquids not containing carbonation, the well-cooked vegetable which is most light and soft, the well-cooked grains, the non-fatted meat such as the fish. You may note that some recommended foodstuffs overlap allergies and sensitivities due to the juvenile rheumatoid arthritic distortions. Further, although sugar such as is in your sweetened desserts represents a potential, we may suggest that it be included at this period for aforementioned reasons.

(Here Ra's suggestion is that the non-fatted meat will not spasm the stomach, but will increase the distortion towards arthritis)

43.18 Questioner: The mechanism of, shall we say, social catalyst due to a necessity for feeding the body then is active in fourth density. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is incorrect. The fourth-density being desires to serve and the preparation of foodstuffs is extremely simple due to increased communion between entity and living foodstuff. Therefore, this is not a significant catalyst but rather a simple precondition of the space/time experience. The catalyst involved is the necessity for the ingestion of foodstuffs. This is not considered to be of importance by fourth-density entities and it, therefore, aids in the teach/learning of patience.

So in short, Ra says:
-The basic dietary guidelines for Carla apply to in general to all
-Ill health can be corrected with increased consumption of vegetables and grains
-Only consume as much animal products as are needed for the individual metabolism
-Eating meat increases the potential for allergy/disease
-"Fatted", "slaughtered", and meat with "preservatives added" are especially to be avoided. (Honestly at this point in history I think most fish is actually "farmed" and "fatted" also)
-Ra refers to forth density food as "living foodstuff" and refers to meat as "non-living physical material"

Ra says that Wanderers are more prone to "allergies" (which is how they refer to Carla's reaction towards eating animals), which to me implies that those who come from higher densities are more likely to have negative reactions to eating animal flesh.

12.30 Questioner: [I just had a] thought. Do any of these Wanderers have physical ailments in this Earth situation?

Ra: I am Ra. Due to the extreme variance between the vibratory distortions of third density and those of the more dense densities, if you will, Wanderers have as a general rule some form of handicap, difficulty, or feeling of alienation which is severe. The most common of these difficulties are alienation, the reaction against the planetary vibration by personality disorders, as you would call them, and body complex ailments indicating difficulty in adjustment to the planetary vibrations such as allergies, as you would call them.

[Minyatur]

Just to say, but I think the moment acts begin to be labelled as either STO or STS, then the essence of what polarity is is lost.

Beyond the earth scope, the confederation distills this on the cosmic-level I think and their implication with it is probably quite varied to a degree they can't probably say much and remain balanced. For example, they probably have quite the many wanderers who either incarnate to eat meat to distill acceptance of this facet of the cosmos that they may have grown in an environment without, or even just incarnate within conditions to eat meat for portions of incarnations to provide the right setting for the incarnational work.

How many of Ra incarnated on Earth in acceptance they would eat meat for at least a certain duration in each lifetime (if the incarnational circumstances make it prone to that)? I'd say each and every single one that had any single interaction with this catalyst. So what can those of Ra and/or the confederation say when they send of their own people to partake in this karma from a positive intent?

[rva_jeremy]

Not a single thing wrong with disagreeing with the Confederation.

[anagogy]

So in short, Ra says:
-Eating meat increases the potential for allergy/disease

Sorry but I don't think this is what Ra said. That seems a bit of distortion. I thought it was pretty clear that they were saying that preservatives do this, not meat. That's why they were admonishing to find the products with the least preservatives. This is true for vegan products as well, I would imagine.

[Jade]

So in short, Ra says:
-Eating meat increases the potential for allergy/disease

Sorry but I don't think this is what Ra said. That seems a bit of distortion. I thought it was pretty clear that they were saying that preservatives do this, not meat. That's why they were admonishing to find the products with the least preservatives. This is true for vegan products as well, I would imagine.

Have you ever purchased/eaten meat that wasn't slaughtered and had preservatives added to it? Other than fish you have caught yourself - that would possibly fit into the category. Otherwise, the meat you eat is weeks or months old and there has to be something added to stop it from decomposing. In fact, here in Colorado we have literally the only meat processing facility that doesn't process the meat with ammonia - a big selling point for some people!

I think Ra was very clearly talking about preservatives added to meat, and likely dairy would also fit the bill of "animal protein". If you read the quote in context, as well as the other quotes talking about suggested diet, Ra doesn't say anything about preservatives in vegetables causing harm to anyone.

[83.28]We may ask the support group to monitor the instrument as always so that in the case of the desire for the more complex proteins that which is the least distorted might be offered to the bodily complex which is indeed at this time potentially capable of greatly increased distortion.

[84.2]Ra: I am Ra. We were, in the cautionary statement about complex protein, referring to the distortions of the animal protein which has been slaughtered and preservatives added in order to maintain the acceptability to your peoples of this non-living, physical material. It is well to attempt to find those items which are fresh and of the best quality possible in order to avoid increasing this particular entity’s distortions which may be loosely termed allergic.

Of course, everyone should be encouraged to eat the freshest and least processed food, period, for all of these reasons stated and more.

[Diana]

Not a single thing wrong with disagreeing with the Confederation.

Yes. 

Aside from this, what does it matter what another entity says? Of course there is a wealth of information in the Ra Material. But it's information, not a rule book. We cannot know the extent to which entities like Ra go to avoid the obstruction of free will. 

The responsibility/accountability of choices is upon the individual making the choice. To think otherwise, or make decisions otherwise, is the same as religious people doing what the bible or quran says just because it's written there. 

The decisions one makes regarding what to eat, what to participate in, and how one wants to live and be (and if actions match the desire), are individual choices.

If one is awake and aware enough to count other life forms (besides just humans) as "others," then what one does in this life will flow from that. Accepting everything in this 3D world as it is, is different than what one is, as self, acting in the world. One may accept that this world is suffering, but one chooses whether or not to contribute to that suffering. To put it another way, one can always make choices that reflect the most compassionate. 

[anagogy]

I think Ra was very clearly talking about preservatives added to meat, and likely dairy would also fit the bill of "animal protein". If you read the quote in context, as well as the other quotes talking about suggested diet, Ra doesn't say anything about preservatives in vegetables causing harm to anyone.

So you concede that they were referring to preservatives, rather than meat itself?

And plenty of meat doesn't have preservatives added. I have friends that catch and eat fish, no preservatives whatsoever. And it keeps fairly long in a deep freezer. But you're right that is generally not true in a market setting (though there are exceptions). I would argue this is also true with vegan food products (unless you are going full raw).

And even if you do make the case of it being an allergen. Is everybody allergic to peanuts? Is everybody allergic to milk? Of course not.

So why would it make any sense to include that part of Carla's specific dietary advise in the general dietary guidelines that would apply to everyone?

[Highrculling]

"...our second-density friends are routinely mistreated and abused..."

Har Har Har oops sorry couldn't help*facepalm*

[Coordinate_Apotheosis]

What can even be said or done?  I imagine those of the confederation would want us to just love one another, regardless of our diets.

I imagine they don't judge us for consuming animals.

That they love us for simply being.

[Infinite]

I'm not a fanatic vegetarian. My point is simple: They omitted the negative side of meat consumption.

This negative side being the actions against the animals (STS actions) and the metaphysical effects of meat consumption on our auras (there are black magicians who don't eat meat for that your energetc fields not lower the vibration).

But, perhaps, as someone said above, the problem was the question.

[Jade]

I think Ra was very clearly talking about preservatives added to meat, and likely dairy would also fit the bill of "animal protein". If you read the quote in context, as well as the other quotes talking about suggested diet, Ra doesn't say anything about preservatives in vegetables causing harm to anyone.

So you concede that they were referring to preservatives, rather than meat itself?

And plenty of meat doesn't have preservatives added. I have friends that catch and eat fish, no preservatives whatsoever. And it keeps fairly long in a deep freezer. But you're right that is generally not true in a market setting (though there are exceptions). I would argue this is also true with vegan food products (unless you are going full raw).

And even if you do make the case of it being an allergen. Is everybody allergic to peanuts? Is everybody allergic to milk? Of course not.

So why would it make any sense to include that part of Carla's specific dietary advise in the general dietary guidelines that would apply to everyone?

It seems you are willfully ignoring some very clear statements by Ra. Ra says preservatives added to meat, not preservatives, so your initial supposition that "that includes vegan food!" really came from nowhere. If Ra meant preservatives period, Ra would have worded things a bit differently. The initial statement was a caution about the "complex proteins", and when asked to clarify, that is when Ra modified the "complex proteins" with "slaughtered and preservatives". Ra also says that allergies are caused by inharmonious vibrations with the planetary sphere - it makes sense that Wanderers can absorb/feel the pain/stress of the beings that they are eating. And it's plain fact that 75% of incarnate humans are measurably lactose intolerant. This is literally an allergy to an animal protein.

If you read the quotes in full, in order, they tell a story. They say Carla (and all others) are best distorted towards health by the eating of vegetables and grains. Later they clarify that it's because Carla's body is "allergic" to meat, and this is what causes her distortions towards ill health. This seems to be a part of the same statement, IMO. I know that's an extrapolation but I do not believe it is stretching the meaning of what Ra was saying at all, to then presume that all humans are somewhat allergic to "complex proteins" that have been "distorted" and "slaughtered" and "preservatives added to maintain to acceptability of this non-living, physical material". I mean I know I'm biased but it seems clear to me what Ra is saying.

Basically, we wouldn't have to add preservatives to meat if it was killed it any way that resembled ethical or sustainable or if we just consumed "to the extent needed for the individual metabolism". But since they are slaughtered en masse, in completely disgusting facilities, for pleasure and not sustenance, this food would be completely rancid before it even got on a truck. Obviously people who raise and kill their own food have a different experience.

My husband slaughtered his own chickens once. Someone had given him broiler birds and they were dropping dead at a couple months old, as they do, so he tried to mercifully kill them. However, he couldn't deal with it after he ground them up, so instead of feeding his friends to the dogs like he intended, he left them in a sealed bucket for two days. When he opened the bucket, it was full of maggots. He stopped eating chicken after that but the grocery store illusion kept him buying other meat.

As Jeremy said, you can always disagree with the Confederation! But I am of the opinion that Ra is quite clear about what we should and shouldn't eat. Ra was telling Don and Jim to watch Carla and make sure that Carla only eats meat/animal protein in small quantities, and only if it's super fresh (which I'm sure, ironically, was somewhat easier to obtain back in 1982) - and only to the extent needed for her metabolism, which I presume ideally would be none.

I think this ties in perfectly well with what Q'uo says about "poisoned/tainted" food in the other thread, actually. "To the extent needed for the individual metabolism" seems to be Ra's way of saying "The complexity of the interrelationship between the physical vehicle that is so weakened in certain aspects, combined with the mental quality of feeling that certain foodstuffs are advantageous when they are perhaps counter-productive, then with the combination of personal catalyst of what you would call a “disharmonious nature,” provides a certain stew of a mixture that is responsible for the phenomenon of the mass subjugation of the immune systems of many of your peoples who have basically weakened physical vehicles due to dietary choices and mental choices of unrelieved disharmony, shall we say." Or, we should quit telling ourselves that we "need" this highly distorted, slaughtered, non-living physical material that, in the very least, requires an allergen (preservatives) to maintain acceptability. "Mass subjugation of the immune system" seems to me to be a nudge subconsciously to the "Mass subjugation of (insert a vital and unique piece of second density here)". As, the physical is inseparable from the metaphysical, so that which we do unto others is done in turn unto us. Hence why service to others beings are "allergic" to "mass subjugation", or, possibly "allergic" to:

[31.14]The choice of stimulus is certainly the choice of the entity. In the case of which you speak, these entities were strongly polarized orange ray, thus finding the energy blockage of power over others, the putting to death being the ultimate power over others;

[Diana]

I'm not a fanatic vegetarian. My point is simple: They omitted the negative side of meat consumption.

This negative side being the actions against the animals (STS actions) and the metaphysical effects of meat consumption on our auras (there are black magicians who don't eat meat for that your energetc fields not lower the vibration).

But, perhaps, as someone said above, the problem was the question.

There were a couple of issues regarding questions and answers around this subject.

1. The first is that the nature of any channeled conversation will be affected by the questioner and the channeler and their distortions. 

So, I think this answers your question in part. Don simply wasn't aware of or interested in that part of the effects of consuming foodstuffs. And you know Ra had to be invited to comment on anything, and prompted specifically.

2. Ra, (and presumably Q'uo and all Confederation entities), avoid obstructing free will. 

We know Carla ate meat. So, how then does Ra come through and say, don't eat meat, when the channeler eats meat? That would be a violation of free will. To take it further, humans are addicted to certain foods, and many people have addictions to meat. If Ra had said that Carla should not eat meat, this could have been also infringing upon an addiction, trying to MAKE someone heal, rather than supporting one's choices while encouraging greater awareness. 

There are many "living masters" who mandate a vegetarian diet for their followers. There are reasons for this, all of which I presume everyone here knows (and which Infinite has touched on). And while it may benefit the followers of such living masters to become vegetarians, it does not promote those followers to make their own choices based on their own awareness and decisions.

And this is what Ra was so concerned with. They felt they made mistakes in Egypt—of infringement. So the tip-toeing around certain subjects derives from a very careful wording and sometimes not answering at all. 

[anagogy]

It seems you are willfully ignoring some very clear statements by Ra. Ra says preservatives added to meat, not preservatives, so your initial supposition that "that includes vegan food!" really came from nowhere. If Ra meant preservatives period, Ra would have worded things a bit differently. The initial statement was a caution about the "complex proteins", and when asked to clarify, that is when Ra modified the "complex proteins" with "slaughtered and preservatives". Ra also says that allergies are caused by inharmonious vibrations with the planetary sphere - it makes sense that Wanderers can absorb/feel the pain/stress of the beings that they are eating. And it's plain fact that 75% of incarnate humans are measurably lactose intolerant. This is literally an allergy to an animal protein.

Right. I'm the one "willfully ignoring". LOL. That's rich. Okay, Jade, keep twisting Ra's words to spearhead your vegan crusade.

They could have easily said, "stop eating meat, its bad mmmkay!!!!", just like they flat out told Don, "feed hungry people!". They were *recommending* she eat meat, for OPTIMAL health, and then advised she find the meat with the least preservatives (because the body doesn't like preservatives (irritant/allergen) and they rob the food of life force).

They could have easily just said fruits and vegetables and grains and left it at that. They didn't even have to mention meat.

But okay, I'm the one ignoring things. That's fine.  

Also, your notion that people from higher densities are more likely to have bad reactions to animal flesh seems like a great way to snub your nose at people who eat animal products and thrive on it, because then you can just tell yourself they just aren't a super advanced spiritual being like yourself.

In fact, I've been told by my guides that some individuals who incarnate from higher densities have to eat animal products to keep them in the physical (ground them), because their higher density spirits want to vibrate right on out of this realm. But you're going to believe whatever you would like, regardless of what is said here, so I'm not sure why I'm even posting in this thread. It is utterly pointless. I'm sorry if this comes across as yelling at you. I'm really not. But I feel like there is some twisting of Ra's words happening here to support an agenda, but I'm sure another five pages of hashing this out, isn't going to make a difference in your perspective, just like it never did in any of the other threads.

And as for Quo, they have contradicted themselves so much it makes my head spin. But that's what you get with conscious channeling. YMMV. You can find Q'uo quotes to support almost any idea.

There are many "living masters" who mandate a vegetarian diet for their followers.

There are also many that ate meat, and never stopped.

[Aion]

You're going to find 'spiritual sources' whom are on both ends of the spectrum. It all comes down to what you idealize. You will affirm those 'masters' who reflect those teachings which you yourself support. It's called confirmation bias. That is how people navigate philosophically.

As a very good example, the Dalai Lama is actually not a vegetarian and eats meat. I think Buddhism is one of the best examples to use because it's often cited as one of the core sources for 'compassionate thinking'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_vegetarianism

In general, it seems their philosophy is "it's okay to eat meat as long as the animal wasn't killed specifically to be meat". Of course, some schools are more strictly vegetarianism but it's not universal by any means.

"In Tibet, where vegetables have been historically very scarce, and the adopted vinaya was the Nikaya Sarvāstivāda, vegetarianism is very rare, although the Dalai Lama, the Karmapa, and other esteemed lamas invite their audiences to adopt vegetarianism whenever they can. Chatral Rinpoche in particular stated that anyone who wished to be his student must be vegetarian. Contradictory to the compassionate Tibetan Buddhist traditions in which a sanctity of life, both human and animal, is cherished, meat is often consumed as a form of sustenance due to lack of vegetation readily available. For example, Tibetan medicine emphasizes the necessity to acquire and sustain a balance between the bodily fluids of wind (rlung), phlegm (bad kan), and bile (mkhns), in which a meatless diet would disturb and eventually lead to fatigue. The 18th century Tibetan religious leader Jigmé Lingpa suggested that Tibetan Buddhists who wish to consume meat, but also do not want to sacrifice their religious beliefs, should recite a prayer over their plate of meat in order to purify it before it is consumed. This is said to create a favorable interconnection between the consumer and the animal, assisting it to attain a finer rebirth."

I just thought that was an interesting 'half-way' between the extremes.

[Nía]

Something I found interesting in this regard is Morris' report of a past life regression that was presented at the 2016 Homecoming: A Wanderer’s Last Home.

I remember meals in a dining hall.  This was kind of interesting to me. Our meals were simple, always vegan; we did not have sugary deserts. [group laughter] There was a brief time of worship before the meals; we were thankful for our food.  We thanked the planet and the Creator for providing the bounty.  Long tables arranged in a U shape.  The more elderly people sat at the head of the table with progressively younger people along the sides of the U.  And the seating was based on wisdom and service, not on any status.  There was no such status in that environment.  The meal was delicious: a rich barley-based soup with vegetables, there were wonderful smelling whole grain breads, there were platters of fresh fruits and vegetables.  And we would all sit and have this meal together. The drink was a fruit-based nectar, or a water.

[Questioner: “Yes, two questions. No meat?  There was no meat?”]

No meat. In fact, that brings up an interesting point.  I had the impression of animals.  But I never saw any animals.  For example, if you don’t eat meat, you don’t have chickens, you don’t have cows.  There was gardening going on, but I doubt that we were using horses to pull a plow.  So I had the impression of animals, but I remember looking for animals and not seeing birds but knowing they were there.  And that was puzzling to me.  But we didn’t have any meat.

[Questioner: “And you might have said this already, but was this a 5th density planet or a fourth?]

I’m assuming 4th density.

-`ღ´-

[Minyatur]

In fact, I've been told by my guides that some individuals who incarnate from higher densities have to eat animal products to keep them in the physical (ground them), because their higher density spirits want to vibrate right on out of this realm.

I nearly said this last week in another thread regarding societal values and beliefs. I think a lot of wanderers come here to vibrate with people, or a group of people, and not necessarily as an opposition to what they incarnate. Eating meat is an efficient mean to be grounded in a society where there is meat eating.

On the notion of channeled entities. Once they begin to consciously instill emotions of rejection (fear, doubt, disgust, etc), then that is depolarizing to them as their mean to polarize is to teach/learn the love of acceptance.

[Diana]

There are many "living masters" who mandate a vegetarian diet for their followers.

There are also many that ate meat, and never stopped.

Allow me to clarify, because perhaps it was my own lack of explaining clearly that led to this. I don't follow anyone or anything. So "living masters" was only a reference to certain people here who are presumably concentrating on spiritual evolution. In retrospect, I would have been smarter to leave any reference to them out of this conversation, as it is really ambiguous at best.

However, there are certain effects from consuming animal products (which are addressed by {some} spiritual leaders) which can be considered, some of which have been mentioned in this thread. Of course, this subject has been canvassed extensively on these forums. But it must be mentioned that there is a reason for this constant resurfacing. And the reason(s) need not be laid at one (or more) person's feet, in the form of attack, with accusations of an agenda. That is a pretty extreme way to view someone's (a conscientious member) opinions.

Instead, why not consider what is posted open-mindedly? You may say that you have, and this may be true. We are all in this world dealing with challenges on every front. And the more we become aware of, the more decisions must be made (or decisions not to decide) in light of that awareness.

You're going to find 'spiritual sources' whom are on both ends of the spectrum. It all comes down to what you idealize. You will affirm those 'masters' who reflect those teachings which you yourself support. It's called confirmation bias. That is how people navigate philosophically.

True. People will seek out validation for their beliefs and behaviors.

But I will add that not all people do that. Or perhaps it's more accurate to say that some people endeavor to seek expansion of consciousness without seeking validation. One great way to do that is to have working theories instead of beliefs. 

...In general, it seems their philosophy is "it's okay to eat meat as long as the animal wasn't killed specifically to be meat".

In what circumstances would this be?

[Louisabell]

I think this issue is made even more confusing because of the bond we form with our pets.

13.21 Questioner: Then how does the second density progress to the third?

Ra: I am Ra. The second density strives towards the third density which is the density of self-consciousness or self-awareness. The striving takes place through the higher second-density forms who are invested by third-density beings with an identity to the extent that they become self-aware mind/body complexes, thus becoming mind/body/spirit complexes and entering third density, the first density of consciousness of spirit.


Therefore many pets end up being early third density harvest-able during their lifetimes. This gives us the feeling that it is highly inappropriate to view these animals as a food source, as they now have an individuated spirit. But not all animals are at this stage, especially wild animals who have an Oversoul to which they return to upon death.

[Jade]

It seems you are willfully ignoring some very clear statements by Ra. Ra says preservatives added to meat, not preservatives, so your initial supposition that "that includes vegan food!" really came from nowhere. If Ra meant preservatives period, Ra would have worded things a bit differently. The initial statement was a caution about the "complex proteins", and when asked to clarify, that is when Ra modified the "complex proteins" with "slaughtered and preservatives". Ra also says that allergies are caused by inharmonious vibrations with the planetary sphere - it makes sense that Wanderers can absorb/feel the pain/stress of the beings that they are eating. And it's plain fact that 75% of incarnate humans are measurably lactose intolerant. This is literally an allergy to an animal protein.

Right. I'm the one "willfully ignoring". LOL. That's rich. Okay, Jade, keep twisting Ra's words to spearhead your vegan crusade.

They could have easily said, "stop eating meat, its bad mmmkay!!!!", just like they flat out told Don, "feed hungry people!". They were *recommending* she eat meat, for OPTIMAL health, and then advised she find the meat with the least preservatives (because the body doesn't like preservatives (irritant/allergen) and they rob the food of life force).

They could have easily just said fruits and vegetables and grains and left it at that. They didn't even have to mention meat.

But okay, I'm the one ignoring things. That's fine.  

Also, your notion that people from higher densities are more likely to have bad reactions to animal flesh seems like a great way to snub your nose at people who eat animal products and thrive on it, because then you can just tell yourself they just aren't a super advanced spiritual being like yourself.

In fact, I've been told by my guides that some individuals who incarnate from higher densities have to eat animal products to keep them in the physical (ground them), because their higher density spirits want to vibrate right on out of this realm. But you're going to believe whatever you would like, regardless of what is said here, so I'm not sure why I'm even posting in this thread. It is utterly pointless. I'm sorry if this comes across as yelling at you. I'm really not. But I feel like there is some twisting of Ra's words happening here to support an agenda, but I'm sure another five pages of hashing this out, isn't going to make a difference in your perspective, just like it never did in any of the other threads.

And as for Quo, they have contradicted themselves so much it makes my head spin. But that's what you get with conscious channeling. YMMV. You can find Q'uo quotes to support almost any idea.

I admitted that I might be biased with my point of view. I'm sorry if you perceived it, but I certainly wasn't attacking or judging anyone. I'm just sharing my understanding of what Ra says.

To me, it's clear that, in this order, Ra warned against eating "distorted complex proteins", then, when asked in the next session, they said with "animal protein that has been slaughtered and preservatives added to it". To me, it seems like they are actually encouraging Carla to eat beans, really! As they qualified that which was complex and distorted: "We were, in the cautionary statement about complex protein, referring to the distortions of the animal protein which has been slaughtered and preservatives added in order to maintain the acceptability to your peoples of this non-living, physical material."

Ra says it is non-living, physical material, that requires preservatives to maintain its acceptability. The preservatives don't drain the life force - the life force is already gone. That being is dead long before you eat it. Grains/vegetables definitely have their life force drained with preservatives/pesticides/chemical treatments. I have organic beans that are several years old in my cupboard that will sprout into a live plant overnight if I soak them in water.

Almost immediately prior to this, Ra had stated, as a brunt up against the free will of Carla:
"We offer the following, not to infringe upon your free will... We may ask the support group to monitor the instrument as always so that in the case of the desire for the more complex proteins that which is the least distorted might be offered to the bodily complex which is indeed at this time potentially capable of greatly increased distortion."

So they are saying, if Carla desires, not needs, to eat meat, then try to offer her that which is the least distorted, otherwise she may get really sick. In the next session, Ra clearly clarifies the protein distortions they were talking about.

Sorry if I'm repeating myself, I just feel like maybe there's a misunderstanding somewhere that could be clarified.

In fact, I've been told by my guides that some individuals who incarnate from higher densities have to eat animal products to keep them in the physical (ground them), because their higher density spirits want to vibrate right on out of this realm.

That makes sense, and I understand your point. While we have made ritual sacrifice (slaughterhouses) the most efficient means of grounding oneself and gaining energy, I do not think it is necessary any longer, and needs to be released before we can move into 4th density - and I sort of operate under the assumption that we are all here on Bring4th(density).org because we desire to offer the spiritual catalyst to help accelerate this process to alleviate the pain and suffering on this planet. I think most of our species knows that just going outside and spending time in nature can ground oneself, and taking in the creative and living life force that is all around us. This is why I made the point to include the quote about the ultimate power over others being subjugation unto death - as long as people realize that this is what they are doing (getting spiritual power from the death of others). I'm not judging or saying I'm a more spiritual being or anything like that, I don't believe that at all. I just want people to be aware enough to make their own choices in the full light of these choices and their consequences. The only choice is in the moment, and as of this moment, I am making plenty of choices that I wish were different, so I'm obviously a hypocrite. Personally, I just wish I had received the catalyst that made me stop eating animals much sooner than I did, because I just love them so much and what we do to them is so heinous.

Therefore many pets end up being early third density harvest-able during their lifetimes. This gives us the feeling that it is highly inappropriate to view these animals as a food source, as they now have an individuated spirit. But not all animals are at this stage, especially wild animals who have an Oversoul to which they return to upon death.

The thing about this is that all of the animals we eat have been domesticated for thousands and thousands of years as well, alongside humans, picking the same types of traits (gentleness, sociability, warmth, intelligence) as we have with cats and dogs. They are invested in by their human caretakers every single day. Often, they can be very loved and cared for.

[Aion]

There are many "living masters" who mandate a vegetarian diet for their followers.

There are also many that ate meat, and never stopped.

Allow me to clarify, because perhaps it was my own lack of explaining clearly that led to this. I don't follow anyone or anything. So "living masters" was only a reference to certain people here who are presumably concentrating on spiritual evolution. In retrospect, I would have been smarter to leave any reference to them out of this conversation, as it is really ambiguous at best.

However, there are certain effects from consuming animal products (which are addressed by {some} spiritual leaders) which can be considered, some of which have been mentioned in this thread. Of course, this subject has been canvassed extensively on these forums. But it must be mentioned that there is a reason for this constant resurfacing. And the reason(s) need not be laid at one (or more) person's feet, in the form of attack, with accusations of an agenda. That is a pretty extreme way to view someone's (a conscientious member) opinions.

Instead, why not consider what is posted open-mindedly? You may say that you have, and this may be true. We are all in this world dealing with challenges on every front. And the more we become aware of, the more decisions must be made (or decisions not to decide) in light of that awareness.

You're going to find 'spiritual sources' whom are on both ends of the spectrum. It all comes down to what you idealize. You will affirm those 'masters' who reflect those teachings which you yourself support. It's called confirmation bias. That is how people navigate philosophically.

True. People will seek out validation for their beliefs and behaviors.

But I will add that not all people do that. Or perhaps it's more accurate to say that some people endeavor to seek expansion of consciousness without seeking validation. One great way to do that is to have working theories instead of beliefs. 

...In general, it seems their philosophy is "it's okay to eat meat as long as the animal wasn't killed specifically to be meat".

In what circumstances would this be?

I've actually been trying to figure this out myself. I think it implies that 'scavenging' is okay, but not 'hunting' if that makes sense. So, if an animal dies of natural causes and is healthy enough to be eaten that would be acceptable because the animal wasn't killed for the purpose of being meat. Another situation could be maybe an animal gets in an unrelated accident and is killed, it would probably be acceptable. In both of these situations the cause of death are 'by nature' and not occurring because a human is killing them for meat.

However, the Tibetan example is again an interesting one because it is a place where there is not a lot of vegetation and so there has long been some necessity of consuming animal products. I think we take our Western accessibility to food a little for granted at times. In many places of the world there are not nearly so many 'options'. Absolutely this is because of secular 'world management' and greed, but y'know.

What intrigues me in the Tibetan case is that despite having this sort of survival necessity on animal products they have taken very strongly to Buddhism and compassionate philosophies. In some ways, maybe it could be seen as a response to the harshness of their conditions and an internal way to 'soften the edge of reality' as it were. It is also true that the Dalai Lama and others still recommend vegetarianism and the Dalai Lama consumes meat at the behest of his doctor and for his health. So again, 'necessary for the individual metabolism'.

[anagogy]

Ra says it is non-living, physical material, that requires preservatives to maintain its acceptability.

Your omitting a critical piece in that exchange.

They say "acceptability to your peoples". It is not to maintain the acceptability of meat to the human body. I would argue ketogenic (high fat, low carb) diets are the natural diet of the human animal.

Whether you eat plants, or you eat animals, you are taking the lives of second density consciousness complexes (in fact, one animal can feed someone for many months, whereas with most plants, it takes many many many lives to generate the same amount of caloric fuel). Unless you are eating a strictly fruitarian diet, which is horrible for your teeth (a clue to the unnaturalness of such a diet -- when the food destroys an organisms teeth, it is not the natural diet to that species.

Sorry if I'm repeating myself, I just feel like maybe there's a misunderstanding somewhere that could be clarified.

As I said, I don't even know why I posted in the first place. No minds are ever changed by these conversations. It just the same thing, recycled over and over. Everybody will just believe whatever they believed to begin with. Beliefs simply look for evidence to justify themselves.

[Louisabell]

Therefore many pets end up being early third density harvest-able during their lifetimes. This gives us the feeling that it is highly inappropriate to view these animals as a food source, as they now have an individuated spirit. But not all animals are at this stage, especially wild animals who have an Oversoul to which they return to upon death.

The thing about this is that all of the animals we eat have been domesticated for thousands and thousands of years as well, alongside humans, picking the same types of traits (gentleness, sociability, warmth, intelligence) as we have with cats and dogs. They are invested in by their human caretakers every single day. Often, they can be very loved and cared for.

I should have been more specific. I was a strict vegan for many years, and I understood the unique context of Ra recommending small amounts of meat to Carla as she was rapidly loosing weight during the sessions. Also, when one has been eating meat for a long time, the body downgrades the production of certain hormones, therefore quitting cold turkey could have been damaging to Carla as she was in a precarious situation.

I do now eat small amounts of animal products because I was relying too much on foods with vegetable oil (not healthy). But I am lucky because I live in Australia and it is relatively easy to find sustainably sourced animal products. It costs just a bit extra for grass-fed, free-range, etc. I live in a city, but I can drive for 10 minutes from my house and I start to see huge stretches of land where livestock is grazing. I thought it was better to support local farmers that are using humane methods.

Factory farming is absolutely a blight on the planet, not just for the animal's sake, but also for the environmental damage. But the thing that is really worrying is the way that intensive farming causes an environment for antibiotic-resistant super bugs to evolve.

[Diana]

I do now eat small amounts of animal products because I was relying too much on foods with vegetable oil (not healthy).

What vegetable oils are you referring to that are not healthy?

[Louisabell]

I do now eat small amounts of animal products because I was relying too much on foods with vegetable oil (not healthy).

What vegetable oils are you referring to that are not healthy?

Just the vegetable oil that is found in typical vegan "junk/convenience food". Honestly, I find the plant-based wholefoods oil-free (McDougall style) diet hard to stick to, mainly due to the mass of food you need to eat, as well all the preparation required.

[Diana]

I do now eat small amounts of animal products because I was relying too much on foods with vegetable oil (not healthy).

What vegetable oils are you referring to that are not healthy?

Just the vegetable oil that is found in typical vegan "junk/convenience food". Honestly, I find the plant-based wholefoods oil-free (McDougall style) diet hard to stick to, mainly due to the mass of food you need to eat, as well all the preparation required.

I'm not aware of any typical vegan junk food. And a vegan diet isn't oil-free. Plant-based oils are more bioavailable (avocado, coconut oil, olive oil, nuts, etc.). There are unhealthy oils in most processed foods including hydrogenated oils, and they are not exclusive to vegetarian items. 

Junk/convenience food is unhealthy whether it is plant- or animal-based.

I have been vegan for some time. I find I eat less food than the typical omnivore, because the food I eat is nutrition-dense and lower on the food chain. I do eat a lot of raw food though, which is even more nutrition-packed. A handful of raw spinach is quite different than a handful of spinach cooked.

Addictions must be considered, and the bionome. The human body is host to a multitude of microorganisms calling the shots. It's estimated that microorganisms outnumber cells in a body by 10 - 1. The bionome changes in accordance to what we feed it (us). This sheds new light on addictions.

As far as prep time, I'm not sure there is much difference between omnivorous eating and vegan, if the omnivorous diet is whole foods. There is always prep time. If someone is living off of processed foods, then of course prep time would not be an issue, but health would.

[Jade]

Whether you eat plants, or you eat animals, you are taking the lives of second density consciousness complexes (in fact, one animal can feed someone for many months, whereas with most plants, it takes many many many lives to generate the same amount of caloric fuel). Unless you are eating a strictly fruitarian diet, which is horrible for your teeth (a clue to the unnaturalness of such a diet -- when the food destroys an organisms teeth, it is not the natural diet to that species.

We've had this discussion before, anagogy. Plants don't have to die for their edible parts to be harvested. Many ARE harvested at the end of their lifecycle, but a tomato plant can live in my garden for many months and feed me every day without dying. You say that an animal "can" feed one person for many months, but this is NOT how 99.999% of humans eat. We take the choice cuts and grind the rest into dog food. So while in "theory" it might be "more ethical" to eat animals, in practice it is definitely not.

It takes 30 of those precious plant calories to convert into 1 animal flesh calorie. How again is there less death with the animal slaughter method?

Sorry if I'm repeating myself, I just feel like maybe there's a misunderstanding somewhere that could be clarified.

As I said, I don't even know why I posted in the first place. No minds are ever changed by these conversations. It just the same thing, recycled over and over. Everybody will just believe whatever they believed to begin with. Beliefs simply look for evidence to justify themselves.

I guess I just sustain faith that this is how we bridge gaps, is that we communicate with each other, as openly and honestly as possible. I'm open to changing my mind. I'm not open to eating animals again, but I'm totally open to being offered a different understanding of the Ra material than the one that I am admittedly biased to.

[Jade]

Therefore many pets end up being early third density harvest-able during their lifetimes. This gives us the feeling that it is highly inappropriate to view these animals as a food source, as they now have an individuated spirit. But not all animals are at this stage, especially wild animals who have an Oversoul to which they return to upon death.

The thing about this is that all of the animals we eat have been domesticated for thousands and thousands of years as well, alongside humans, picking the same types of traits (gentleness, sociability, warmth, intelligence) as we have with cats and dogs. They are invested in by their human caretakers every single day. Often, they can be very loved and cared for.

I should have been more specific. I was a strict vegan for many years, and I understood the unique context of Ra recommending small amounts of meat to Carla as she was rapidly loosing weight during the sessions. Also, when one has been eating meat for a long time, the body downgrades the production of certain hormones, therefore quitting cold turkey could have been damaging to Carla as she was in a precarious situation.

I do now eat small amounts of animal products because I was relying too much on foods with vegetable oil (not healthy). But I am lucky because I live in Australia and it is relatively easy to find sustainably sourced animal products. It costs just a bit extra for grass-fed, free-range, etc. I live in a city, but I can drive for 10 minutes from my house and I start to see huge stretches of land where livestock is grazing. I thought it was better to support local farmers that are using humane methods.

Factory farming is absolutely a blight on the planet, not just for the animal's sake, but also for the environmental damage. But the thing that is really worrying is the way that intensive farming causes an environment for antibiotic-resistant super bugs to evolve.

I'm sorry if I misunderstood, I thought you were talking about the acceptability of certain animals to be eaten vs. other animals. Obviously this is not the case in a worldwide, meta perspective, as in other countries they eat dogs/cats and revere cows.

Unfortunately, here in America, the terms "grass fed" and "free range" mean almost nothing as far as the quality of life that the animals receive. It's a joke a lot of the time as these animals still come from factory farms. I'm glad to hear that it's different in Australia.

Also, I guess I am just extremely lucky that when I went vegan, I got exponentially healthier. I know that's not the case for everyone. However, I went vegan before I found the Ra material, and it had nothing to do with spiritual reasons - it was purely selfish health reasons. So I went into it believing it would make my body healthier, and it really did. And it's kind of ironic because we were so poor, we went hungry much of the time! But we were forced to eat a whole foods diet (not organic), so maybe that was the main driver. Vegan junkfood didn't really exist when I went vegan.