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[earth_spirit]

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[AnthroHeart]

I've heard from a source that a soul can go to Saturn to essentially start over.

[Nau7ik]

You hit on a very important point in regards to this sector of the galaxy: self-destruction. Maldek was literally blown up and destroyed by its 3D inhabitants. Mars blew off its atmosphere. Humans on Earth in Atlantis destroyed their continent/ home.

What is going on with this group of souls that they keep repeating self destructive patterns?

The Creator gives us total free will. We are under a veil. So obviously the Creator is going to respect our free will even if that means self destruction. There is no true self destruction, for we are One. Yet, still this is very harmful to soul evolution because a choice is not being made for either path. Earth seems to be a kind of experiment where many different groups of 3D repeating souls have come to learn together. So the Logos is doing something. but the Confederation is also learning. They've repeatedly attempted to aid this planet and unfortunately their efforts have fallen short again and again.

This question may not have an answer... I think, the answer is still being discerned in progress by all of us. The confederation, the Logos, our soul group, our individual MBS complexes. We absolutely can do something ourselves. We do have free will choice and at any moment we may choose to abondon self destructive patterns.

Spiritual evolution ever goes upward. Slowly but surely all beings will return to complete and perfect union with the Infinite One. Evolution is inevitable, inescapable. There is never really "no hope". (Q'uo channelings.)

What's important is that we figure things out for ourselves, that we make our choice. We humans see a very tiny portion of the universe. Most of the universe is harmonious joyful and love:light filled. It's only in 3D that we do not see the utter perfection and glory of the present moment, the Creation, ourselves.

[earth_spirit]

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[unity100]

What do you think happens when someone who believes in existence after death, commits suicide with the intent of ending his own existence? Even if it is impossible, what are the potential consequences of pursuing this endeavor to the bitter end, so to speak?

All plans you had during this incarnation to experience or overcome/achieve things fail, all the pre-incarnational agreements you did with any entity in your life or in astral planes become violated, you end up causing great distress and potential damage to anyone who was relying on your particular support you agreed to in pre-incarnation plan, and many other things like that.

who exactly makes the call in the case of a being who is intent on destroying itself

if the entity is strong enough to be able to go against the entire momentum all the incarnation plans, other people's expectations, the energy that is flowing down from the higher self, totality, whatever spirit group it belongs to and so on, the entity itself could force an event in which s/he could kill himself/herself. Higher resources of the entity then would permit this occurrence per necessities of free will.

Technically an entity whose time has come doesnt stay. The ways to leave an incarnation would already be provided before the incarnation at optimal points depending on whatever particular sub-plan of the entire incarnation plan is chosen at any given stage. Own subconscious mind of the entity, its higher resources would provide the means necessary for leaving the incarnation through whatever good route would be available to present the entity with the opportunities. Illness, accidents, warfare, whatever possible.

The opposite is also possible. An entity can stubbornly force to extend his/her incarnation beyond what is feasible to stay. Then again the entity would start up racking momentum (karma) due to delaying whatever stuff it wants to do and whatever stuff it is expected to do in the next incarnation or in time space.

[anagogy]

What is stopping us from destroying ourselves? If the answer is love, then why is continued pursuit of illusions, such as the continued existence of ourselves, loved; but a rejection of all illusions, all that is NOT, isn't loved? Aren't both options possible and legitimate, and if not, why is self-destruction impossible or illegitimate?

At the violet ray level, my understanding is that there is such an overwhelming and infinitely strong awareness of the sanctity and perfection of all life and spirit, that no being desires annihilation of their beingness at this level. Such a view is seen as due to distortion which needs healing. Also, all souls are inextricably bound together and to snuff out one portion of the creator is to snuff out all portions of the creator. That which had no beginning, can have no end. This isn't seen as a lack of free will, but rather that perfection cannot become imperfect. This is not seen in terms of lack, but of never ending joy. And there is an objective level of perfection at that level. I don't think it is possible for us to fully understand, but I'm sorry if you are in such a dark place that you wish for absolute annihilation. I wish I could show you the beauty of life.

[earth_spirit]

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[Stranger]

Unless I'm mistaken, Carla had a strong wish to die at one point early in her life - as I think many wanderers do, finding the default conditions here unsatisfactory (until one manages to awaken and transform self).

She did overcome this and begin her incredible career of service to others, but her former death-wish had the effect of producing chronic pain for the remainder of her life.

[earth_spirit]

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[APeacefulWarrior]

Well, at least going by the Ra materials, the only thing that MIGHT be able to truly destroy a soul\entity currently incarnated would be a direct hit from a nuclear blast. And that, apparently, is not actually allowed to happen since forces watching over the planet intervened to prevent any souls from being lost in the Hiroshima and Nagasaki blasts. (26.23)

So, more or less, my own belief is that: No, self-negation is not an option. I suppose if a soul were absolutely dead-set on trying to negate itself, it might be allowed and\or be able to carve out a bubble of near-nothingness in which it could pretend not to exist. But it would still exist and would presumably re-emerge at some point once it got done sulking. Perhaps this would even be seen as a form of self-healing.

But, of course, the other thing is that once an entity has truly become tired of existence, and has neared full exploration of its own probability\possibility subsets, then it becomes time to turn towards the Godhead. Not self-negation, but the shedding of personality\ego\individuality in the embrace of final unity with the Creator. THAT would be the solace a truly dispirited spirit would seek.

Plus... Ra was not entirely clear on the topic, but apparently there are states analogous to death even on the higher densities. Or at least a sort of rebooting. He alludes a few times to 4D having some sort of death-equivalent, when the entity has become excessively wearied by experiences. So I suspect that there are ways for spiritual existential ennui to be alleviated in a way that removes any suffering on the part of the entity, but without the annihilation of spirit (and experience?) that would come with something like a nuclear blast.

[earth_spirit]

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[APeacefulWarrior]

It's cool; I have the exact same issue.  May we both learn and grow!

[unity100]

@unity100
Thanks for your input, but I am compelled to point out mere physical death was not what I intended to convey. You could say it was a failure to communicate clearly on my part, so I'll ask you to forgive me for the awkwardness.

If you are talking about the existence (life) of the entity as a soul in this particular octave, as said in the Ra material a nuclear blast in close vicinity (or possibly massive energy discharge from other weapons, it doesnt necessarily seem to need particle discharge) seems to be able to make an entity's soul so imbalanced that there may not remain any point to continuing existence and the journey of the entity in this octave.

http://www.lawofone.info/results.php?s=26#23

However...

Despite Ra says that this would end up in a loss of that particular microcosm of the creator, what we call spirit and its manifestations that descend down to mind and then the body and all the actions this manifesting entity takes, are all mirrors of what part of the creator manifests as that spirit.

Thus, spirit is not in itself the shard of infinite intelligence, but its manifestation.

It is not impossible to say that upon such an event, the microcosm, the spirit that manifests as the entity would be lost in this existence, however, what was manifesting as the spirit, cannot be lost - its loss would be a lessening, reducing of infinite intelligence, thus, it would not remain infinite anymore.

As infinite intelligence has to be infinite, its parts cannot be destroyed. In case an entity manifesting in this octave is destroyed, it would not manifest anymore as an entity in time/space or space/time, it would not be considered present in this octave, however it has to remain present in the existence of infinite intelligence itself.

[Plenum]

What is stopping us from destroying ourselves? If the answer is love, then why is continued pursuit of illusions, such as the continued existence of ourselves, loved; but a rejection of all illusions, all that is NOT, isn't loved? Aren't both options possible and legitimate, and if not, why is self-destruction impossible or illegitimate?

I would point to one of the basic features of consciousness which Ra describes.  This would be the upward-spiralling light.

In one of the scenarios you describe, that of someone who ian't aware of incarnational structures, that person would just be facing a life situation where it seems like all attempts to continue forward with the desired growth/expansion of that light, are just baffled and not able to be resolved.  That is, they can't perceive any ways of future fulfillment of their self-chosen purpose.

In the other scenario, the main question of terminating of consciousness as an absolute, again, I think such a conclusion is predicated on a misunderstanding of the mechanics of the universe.  The upward spiralling light of awareness is just inherent.  If one goes from a logical/first principles type of view, again, the only reason why someone would come to such a drastic conclusion to negate consciousness, is that there is a deep disappointment in continued progress.

[earth_spirit]

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[Sprout]

If free will (by concept alone) is for everyone and everything, is it truly fair for one incarnation self to decide the end of all selves?
This place, seemingly a heavenly Earth, is so difficult that you truly are the hero of the story/experience. Reaching out your hand without hesitation to be born completely naked and strapped, not even a memory of who or what you are, to help the other seeking for help. Just by being here, radiating your light upon us, you make us feel less alone. At least, that is how I feel.

[rva_jeremy]

What can be inferred from this statement is; we have no actual say in whether or not we are going to "evolve". It's going to happen period, one way or another.

Yes, this reflects my view.

Therefore; free will is a lie, albeit it might be a necessary one in our case.

Well, to the extent that Creation is a foray into the lie of separation, that kind of makes sense. The more you subdivide the Creator into individual units of identity, the more qualified the scope of "free will" in the first place. The assumption of a separate identity constrains and confuses in and of itself; to be a particular thing means to only be capable of actions that thing is capable of.

I find the Course in Miracles introduction instructive here: "This is a course in miracles. It is a required course. Only the time you take it is voluntary. Free will does not mean that you can establish the curriculum. It means only that you can elect what you want to take at a given time." (my emphasis)

So maybe the issue is that the variable of time is what creates the "lie" of free will, by removing awareness from "true simultaneity" and therefore providing an opportunity for choosing to forestall unity, i.e. to provide the content for evolution.

[zvonimir]

Allan Kardec Practical Spiritism HEAVEN AND HELL  http://www.ssbaltimore.org/PDF/Heaven_Hell.pdf

Man has no right to dispose of his life, because it has been given him in view of the duties which he ought to accomplish
upon the earth; for which reason he should not shorten it voluntarily on any pretext whatsoever. As he has his free-will, he
cannot be prevented from doing so if he will; but he has always to undergo the consequences of the deed. The suicide that is
most severely punished is that which is prompted by despair and the hope of avoiding the troubles of life; because these
troubles being both trials and expiations, to shirk them is to draw back from a task that had been previously accepted, and,
sometimes, from a mission which ought to have been fulfilled.
Suicide does not consist simply in the voluntary act that produces instantaneous death; it comprises everything that is
done, knowingly, to bring about a premature extinction of the vital forces.

as to not repeat what he already found out through channeling  his few books give a great many answers to discussions such as it is on this thread

[anagogy]

How do you people manage to believe in free will while at the same time subscribing to channeled material that refers to Will as the "first distortion"?

In my opinion, "will" is a "distortion" because in the 8th density, all choices are present at once. This is what infinity is. All choices present at once. Everything is chosen at this level. In order to apply "will", you have to first imagine you are not all choices. A choice to reduce choices if you want to think of it the terms closest to what we can probably understand. This results in the potentiation of the Logos manifestation, the Creator, or Painter, that creates, or paints. An image is then crafted. A refinement, or narrowment, on infinity is created, resulting in a specifically crafted experience.

Thus, I am compelled to ask, what truly is the nature of the ultimate observer of all that is? Does it even have an agency, a will of its own, or is it simply existing without alternative, seeing as how non-existence is a self-defeating abstraction? To claim that the ultimate observer of all things has an agency (as Ra does according to LOO) is to imply the possibility that it deliberately creates/tolerates eternal suffering. To claim that all is well doesn't undo the experience of suffering, nor does it stop suffering from existing for ever more.

In ways that are difficult to understand on our plane of existence, suffering is necessary if one wants to have pleasure, or experience of any worthwhile or satisfying kind. One potentiates the other. All experience is potentiated by dividing the poles. It is no different than the fact that 1+1=2 in every single dimension. Or that light and dark are opposites. It is metaphysical math. It is metaphysical truth. You don't have to like it, but you eventually have to acknowledge it.

I don't claim that we have absolute free will. Awareness of choice is required to make choice, and we are lacking a lot of awareness of choice. The creator is not lacking in awareness of choice (except the ones it has chosen to forget), thus it has absolute choice. If anything, I don't believe it has the choice to stop existing (it doesn't see existence as a chore), but I don't think that is a desire it has in the first place. I think the desire for self annihilation is born from distortion and suffering. My heart goes out to you for that. It saddens me when I see someone crushed by such a desire to snuff out infinite and eternal potential for experience because of suffering.

The more aversion you feel, the greater relief is being potentiated for you down the line, karmically speaking. I hope that you get to realize it before you are crushed by it. It is sometimes surprising to hear that we actually desired these life experience, since we don't remember choosing it, but I believe that we did, and we knew it would be hard. I think we could well refuse to continue to incarnate, but I guess these rough experiences actually seemed preferable to that for some strange reason.

What would make life better for you right now? Are there any steps you could take to improve it within your power?

[earth_spirit]

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[The Traveler]

Thanks for your inputs. I am more or less convinced that self-negation is impossible.

How do you people manage to believe in free will while at the same time subscribing to channeled material that refers to Will as the "first distortion"? What is this, but an unworkable contradiction? It's coming across as cognitive dissonance to me.

Wouldn't you say that we are delusional in our belief that we are "free"? I'd say that, if anything, we are simply pushed and pulled by various catalyst without a conscious awareness of our lack of agency. If existence is infinite, then it follows that the ramifications of every so-called "choice" is bound to exist at some spectrum of this infinity, whether we are aware of them or not. Which means that the concept of "free will" is ultimately a moot point, and whatever "choices" we falsely or unknowingly assume ourselves to be making are, in actuality, of no consequence whatsoever.

The concepts (or rather, distortions) of evolution/progress (and consequently the so-called "densities") are dependent on the distortion of time. Ultimately neither is real, nor we ourselves.

If anything that we observe is an illusion, then so are we who are observing ourselves.

"I think, therefore I am"?

Perhaps it's rather:

I think, therefore I am NOT.

Thus, I am compelled to ask, what truly is the nature of the ultimate observer of all that is? Does it even have an agency, a will of its own, or is it simply existing without alternative, seeing as how non-existence is a self-defeating abstraction? To claim that the ultimate observer of all things has an agency (as Ra does according to LOO) is to imply the possibility that it deliberately creates/tolerates eternal suffering. To claim that all is well doesn't undo the experience of suffering, nor does it stop suffering from existing for ever more.

It is because of this that I am harboring a grudge against the so-called "Creator" as Ra refers to the observer/the source of all things. Not only a grudge, but also a horrifying helplessness.

And the only coping strategy I've found is simply assuming the "Creator" doesn't have a choice, in the same way none of us have free will regardless of whether we are compelled by the nature of our being to pretend otherwise.

Though the Law of One channelings may be accurate in a given context, that being the so-called evolution of (some?) beings through densities; I think it is potentially quite misleading outside of that context, such as making the claim (or rather, rationalizing) that there is a "Creator".

I feel very much the same way you do regarding this topic in fact, this has been a major source of my grief if not the biggest source pretty much since I was a child (I'm close to 30 now). I do however have "better" days but those "better" days are me feeling just "okay" or "neutral" if you will. Then I have those bad days where I feel like killing myself (which is rather often.......LOL). If you are feeling down in the dumps and are contemplating suicide I would like to offer you my thoughts and wish you light to illuminate those darker moments in your life. I would also suggest that you hold on for as long as you can, its the most anyone can ask of you. Maybe if you wait just a bit longer you might have a revelation which will make living on this world not so shitty?

As for myself, I will not and refuse to grow old on this world which is why I have set a date for my departure, 16 March 2031. I will be 40 years old on that day and by then family members (siblings) will be settled etc. As much as I would like to leave now it would be very unfair to place that strain on my family as we aren't in the best place financially and my sister is in her last year of college (she's had a difficult few years due to illness). Should something change within me in these last 14 or so years of my life and I change my mind then cool however, if I still feel the same way on the 16th of March 2031 then away I go  

So, try to give yourself some more time to figure these things out, who knows, you might remember something  

[Sprout]

earth_spirit, if this isn't about you and actually creation itself as a whole, then as you can see, worry not for we are all well and confused. Breathing, and healing our body/mind/spirit. I commented because something in me felt that it could aid, if only by a few words to calm an aching heart.
So please, worry with us, don't make us worry more than we can handle. You yourself created these vibrations which we all try and heal, therefore do not deny us by trying to convice that true death exists. We do not know, we cannot know, all we have are these bodies, a rocky planet, and a sun which keeps us warm and alive. So if we wish to believe that all is well, are we really to blame for being the fool?

[earth_spirit]

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[Sprout]

I understand, thank you for sharing your energies with us. I can't really address the issue of suicide, maybe a Ra quote, but your feelings are apart of your belief therefore I will just say that you are loved no matter what. As long as you allow us a tiny spot in your open heart we will reach out to you and respond. Be well!

[anagogy]

Do you realize the implications of what you're saying? That in order to "potentiate" a "worthwhile", "satisfying" kind of pleasure, one has to partake in as much suffering as possible?

Even if I've misinterpreted your claims, what exactly in your statement would prevent arriving at such a conclusion?

Yes, you're misinterpreting what I'm saying. Perhaps I'm not explaining myself well.

My point was simple, but overly wordy. The point was simply: in my opinion, you can't have pleasure without pain. If you tried to a create a universe with just pleasure, I'm saying you would shortly stop feeling the pleasure. It would be an existence in monochrome. If you have an environment with pleasure, and then a more intense pleasure, the lesser pleasure would eventually be perceived as pain via relativity of perception. Suffering is an inevitable consequence of experience. Your post seemed to be lamenting that suffering existed (which was your objection to the idea that we have free will -- perhaps I misunderstood the point you were trying to make). Or maybe this was what you saw as the no choice part.

I disagree. I believe there never really was a choice. There is only the illusion of such, which is a natural consequence of infinity just as suffering is. Yet, I am not inclined to equate suffering with pleasure as you do. Both simply are.

I guess I just have a disconnect with the view you are offering, because you see the creation in bondage (absence of freedom), and I look around and see a creator with infinite degrees of freedom, so I guess I just don't understand where you are coming from exactly. So I guess what I'm wondering (in order to better understand your perspective) what would "freedom" look like to you? If freedom means the 'freedom' to annihilate ourselves, frankly, that's not a freedom I want, and am thankful we don't have it. I would see that as bondage, with the constant threat of 'endedness' constantly looming over our existential shoulder, like a dark specter. The opposite of eternal and infinite perfection from my perspective.

[earth_spirit]

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[rva_jeremy]

It's important to understand what is meant by suffering as well. Physical suffering is tough but has the virtue of being direct and unconfused. Mental and spiritual suffering are more problematic for an entity, according to those of Ra.

In my opinion suffering is not simply some passport stamp to enlightenment. You don't have to have suffering per se. Suffering and pain are chiefly ways of grabbing one's attention, if I understand the Confederation correctly, so that lessons can be completed. And it is our response to the suffering, how we create an experience of significance by refracting catalyst, that determines the character of the suffering which has the potential to cause further confusion and dissatisfaction but also the potential to focus one.

That said, I do agree with anagogy 100% that suffering and pleasure are both necessary to have a certain intensity experience. And it is the intensity of the experience here that teaches with such efficiency.

I disagree. I believe there never really was a choice. There is only the illusion of such, which is a natural consequence of infinity just as suffering is.

Everything that is not unity is an illusion, so… yeah. There is no choice, in reality. The point is that the Creator is making believe that there is such a thing as a choice, and we are going through an experience where we re-discover that the choice we've been agonizing over is really no choice at all. It is all quite absurd from where I'm standing.

[Infinite]

What do you think happens when someone who believes in existence after death, commits suicide with the intent of ending his own existence?

The same thing that happens with everyone who kill yourself: go to a specific frequency of lower astral plane. This concept is very known here in Brazil because the spiritism doctrine is common. The energy frequency of someone who wants kill yourself turns more and more dense and after death this entity will go to a specific frequency of astral plane.

[anagogy]

My current understanding is that free will is a distortion. I'm sure you know what that means.

Yet, you have not denied that free will is a distortion but still insist in forwarding it as true. It can not be a distortion and true at the same time.

What you can do, is to claim Ra was wrong to refer to Will as a distortion (i.e an illusion, unreal).

Free will is a distortion in the same way that "love" is a distortion. A distortion of "what is". That doesn't mean it doesn't have elements of the truth. To imply otherwise, it just as tortured and wrongly applied logic in my opinion. I mean, do you deny love is real? You can feel its effects. Telling me its a distortion doesn't make it any less real to me. No less experiencable. No less meaningful. Love is a distortion of unity. You could argue that unity (the state before distortion is introduced) is just a more complete version of what love really is. Similarly you could argue (and quite accurately in my opinion), that free will is a distortion in just exactly the same way. A less complete reflection of the Real Deal. But a reflection nonetheless. Thus, the ultimate state would contain the more complete and real version of all 3 distortions. The distortions don't completely encapsulate the reality, but they do contain some majorly important elements of the reality.

I think its a mistake to equate distortion as: not real. When you see a distortion in a misshaped mirror, is every thing you see a falsity, or simply a slightly less accurate version of the true image?

[earth_spirit]

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