In regards to eating meat

[fairyfarmgirl]

All things in Nature are used. This means the energy is exchanged through Eating. The Earth is a Closed Loop System and in its natural form no thing is ever wasted--- simply transformed.

If we did not have the means to make tools we could very well be lunch or a snack for a Lion, Bear, Chimpanzee, Alligator, Crocodile, Bateria, Virus, Insect, Parasite, Ant,Wolf, Dog, Cat, Tiger, Panther, Cougar, Mountain Lion, Shark, other predator fish, Birds of Prey and in some cases Carion birds (if we were in a state of dying). This is the Natural Cycle of Life. Everything is eaten.

I find it interesting that the Vegetarian and Soy way are destroying the very Earth they purport to be trying to "save." The farming of the Earth is domesticating the Land. Forests are removed to make way for fields to plant mono-crops. In this process the balance of nature is upset and many species are displaced. The very species that you think you are saving by eating only vegetarian or vegan foods. This violates the closed loop system of the Earth.

Further, just because you are a vegan or vegetarian does not make you any less agressive. The military is full of vegetarians. India is full of vegetarians and vegans and fruitarians. This eating habit does not make them any less banal in thier inhumanity than an omnivore living in harmony with the closed Loop system of the Earth.

fairyfarmgirl

[unity100]

Unity, I really enjoyed your description of why eating 2D entities could detract light upon the planet and is basically self-serving. However, I keep resorting to the understanding that entities generally "pre-determine" the role of their incarnation, which would include playing victim to the Chicken McNugget machine, if the 2D entity were unlucky enough to be a chicken.

as far as what we know, 2d entities are not able to choose their incarnative experiences. actually, most of 3d entities are not able to choose either - it is chosen by them, until they are mature enough.

but then again, since every existing thing has consciousness, even the 1d (1d actually being 8d of the last octave, which is actually phenomenonal in itself), it is inevitable that there exist some mechanism for choosing.

however, it doesnt matter whether the 2d entity, its group consciousness, or any other principle decided that the entity should incarnate, cultivate a physical vehicle to maturity, and then forfeit it for the sustenance of another - the entity receiving such a 'sacrifice' would still be performing the act of taking another entity's physical vehicle, for sustenance, and extinguishing 2d light where it exists.

and in conjunction :

Have you not considered that many lower density entities require physical experiences, which may include giving up oneself for the benefit of another? Would a 3D entity not have then reached an agreement with the 2D chicken to eat it, so that the 2D chicken could experience catalyst the way it needed to for spiritual advancement from the circumstances of its incarnation? That is absolutely STO, in my opinion. It is a sacred pre-birth agreement between two forms of energy, specifically designed to serve each other with the unique experiences needed for each entity's spiritual path and wisdom.

if you look at it that way, in ultimate end, even going sts and slaughtering millions and enslaving them is a service in ultimate end, because it gives the needed catalyst for those millions of entities to spiritually evolve.

however, in our non-timeless continuum, it is dubbed as sts, an evil act, self serving act, etc, whatever name you give it. so, it becomes a choice in between what path one wants to take - go sts and provide catalyst for others, or go sto and follow that path.

until every timeline, parallel universe converges somewhere in between 7d-8d, these are going to be separate choices.

i doubt that a sacred pre birth agreement exists in between the chicken and its predator. if you take into account that even the higher selves of junior 3d entities send random catalyst to the incarnated entities until some kind of bias makes itself apparent (thats what Ra says anyway), then it is less likely to have an agreement of that kind exist in between the predator and the victim.

Furthermore, once an entity leaves the planet by whatever means, I do not believe the 2D light is extinguished, as you put it. The light body of that 2D entity enters time/space and may certainly decide to come back to space/time to gain further wisdom by playing out the role of another 2D creature.

it is extinguished from the physical plane. basically, it becomes a situation like death of your own self - you still go back to time/space, and maybe manifest and act as a X d entity there (whatever you are manifesting at at that given point in time), but, its effects on space/time would be much much less.

if it had been otherwise, there would be no need for wanderers to incarnate to lighten the spiritual situation on this planet (or any other planet) - they could just remain in time/space, and still render service.

even, if you take it further, there would be no need for space/time incarnation, had there not been enough difference in between manifesting in time/space and space/time. all would exist in the aether, and everything would just be the same.

however, it is not as such. all are having to incarnate. because, manifesting an energy center in space/time and time/space are much, much different.

It's also possible that in many cases, 2D entities have incarnated with the intention of offering itself as food as a final lesson/experience before graduating to 3D.

no such prerequisite or general practice exists as far as i know. the prerequisite for 3d incarnation is being aware of the self being an entity. it is even possible for places and things to directly pass to 3d from 1d.

http://lawofone.info/results.php?session_id=19&ss=1#2

I do understand why you would argue your points, and I thank you for your post, but I feel you are not giving enough credit to the concepts of "catalyst" and "pre-incarnational" considerations.

reasons are above.

however, regardless of the intent and the reason, the wisdom side of creation would still act in the same precise manner - 2d energy that was manifesting in physical, would still be removed from physical. regardless of any kind of forgiveness, agreement, justification, rationalization and so on.

you can look at it this way ; it is kind of a blockage/clogging of the 1-2d energy centers, in whatever combination and weight. it is not unnatural to exist, however, in ultimate sense it is self-damaging (just like how any clogging of any energy center eventually starts to harm the entity), and entity eventually needs to remove that blockage and open that energy center. it is a matter of time, not a matter of choice.

[Monica]

All things in Nature are used. This means the energy is exchanged through Eating. The Earth is a Closed Loop System and in its natural form no thing is ever wasted--- simply transformed.

Physical substance, yes. But I think Unity was referring to the entity's soul that was violated by removing its physical vehicle.

If we did not have the means to make tools we could very well be lunch or a snack for a Lion, Bear, Chimpanzee, Alligator, Crocodile, Bateria, Virus, Insect, Parasite, Ant,Wolf, Dog, Cat, Tiger, Panther, Cougar, Mountain Lion, Shark, other predator fish, Birds of Prey and in some cases Carion birds (if we were in a state of dying). This is the Natural Cycle of Life. Everything is eaten.

All of those species you listed are 2D entities. Aren't we, as 3D+ entities, supposed to be evolving beyond the characteristics of 2D animals?

I find it interesting that the Vegetarian and Soy way are destroying the very Earth they purport to be trying to "save." The farming of the Earth is domesticating the Land. Forests are removed to make way for fields to plant mono-crops. In this process the balance of nature is upset and many species are displaced. The very species that you think you are saving by eating only vegetarian or vegan foods. This violates the closed loop system of the Earth.

???

Fairy, respectfully, the reason the mono-crops are grown is to feed farm animals. If the crops were given to humans instead, the system would be much more efficient.

Further, just because you are a vegan or vegetarian does not make you any less agressive.

There are no absolutes, but I would say that yes, in general, avoiding foods that were produced with violence does indeed help soften the aggressive animal nature. That has been my personal observation and I do not state this as a scientific fact.

I have also observed, not once or twice but countless times, that my dogs get much more aggressive, within minutes, of eating raw meat vs cooked.

The military is full of vegetarians.

? That's news to me, especially since vegetarians are but a small % of the population. Can you provide some documentation on this statement please?

India is full of vegetarians and vegans and fruitarians. This eating habit does not make them any less banal in thier inhumanity than an omnivore living in harmony with the closed Loop system of the Earth.

You have made a lot of strong statements, Fairy. Would you like to share with us how you have arrived at these conclusions? I wasn't aware of any controlled studies done on specific ethnic groups and their diets.

[unity100]

to illustrate the situation from the love perspective, try saying this to a cow when you see one next time :

"i love you honey, but now i will kill you and eat your body for my own survival."

[Monica]

as far as what we know, 2d entities are not able to choose their incarnative experiences. actually, most of 3d entities are not able to choose either - it is chosen by them, until they are mature enough.

I remember reading this in the Law of One.

however, it doesnt matter whether the 2d entity, its group consciousness, or any other principle decided that the entity should incarnate, cultivate a physical vehicle to maturity, and then forfeit it for the sustenance of another - the entity receiving such a 'sacrifice' would still be performing the act of taking another entity's physical vehicle, for sustenance, and extinguishing 2d light where it exists.

This example could be extended to include a human who chose to be a victim of violence. Does that make it ok for the perpetrator of the violence to knowingly commit the violent act?

On some level, there may have been an agreement. But I don't see anyone justifying human violence just because of the karma involved. We still try to prevent violence against humans whenever possible and champion the human victims, even though they were much more likely to have chosen their circumstances than 2D animals, who haven't yet evolved to the degree of conscious choice.

By this logic, it would seem more reasonable to champion the innocent victims at least as much as the conscious or semi-conscious victims.

if you look at it that way, in ultimate end, even going sts and slaughtering millions and enslaving them is a service in ultimate end, because it gives the needed catalyst for those millions of entities to spiritually evolve.

however, in our non-timeless continuum, it is dubbed as sts, an evil act, self serving act, etc, whatever name you give it. so, it becomes a choice in between what path one wants to take - go sts and provide catalyst for others, or go sto and follow that path.

until every timeline, parallel universe converges somewhere in between 7d-8d, these are going to be separate choices.

My response exactly! Isn't that why there are 2 paths? Isn't the 'duty' (if it could be labeled as such) of carrying out the 'dirty work' of administering violence the very hallmark of the STS path?

i doubt that a sacred pre birth agreement exists in between the chicken and its predator. if you take into account that even the higher selves of junior 3d entities send random catalyst to the incarnated entities until some kind of bias makes itself apparent (thats what Ra says anyway), then it is less likely to have an agreement of that kind exist in between the predator and the victim.

Good point. Perhaps we can locate that quote...

no such prerequisite or general practice exists as far as i know. the prerequisite for 3d incarnation is being aware of the self being an entity. it is even possible for places and things to directly pass to 3d from 1d.

http://lawofone.info/results.php?session_id=19&ss=1#2

Ah, thanks!

I do understand why you would argue your points, and I thank you for your post, but I feel you are not giving enough credit to the concepts of "catalyst" and "pre-incarnational" considerations.

you can look at it this way ; it is kind of a blockage/clogging of the 1-2d energy centers, in whatever combination and weight. it is not unnatural to exist, however, in ultimate sense it is self-damaging (just like how any clogging of any energy center eventually starts to harm the entity), and entity eventually needs to remove that blockage and open that energy center. it is a matter of time, not a matter of choice.

Very interesting about the planet's chakras. I have believed for some time now, that our planet cannot fully be healed as long as billions of 2D animals are needlessly suffering on a daily basis. It is like a massive cancer in the body of the Earth that very few humans are paying attention to.

I find it interesting that cancer in humans is so rampant, and cancer rates among vegetarians are much, much lower than in meat-eaters. Could this be significant?

---

I do understand why you would argue your points, and I thank you for your post, but I feel you are not giving enough credit to the concepts of "catalyst" and "pre-incarnational" considerations.

Respectfully, Steve, isn't this ascribing 3D characteristics to 2D in matters of choice of catalyst?

---

I find it interesting that the Vegetarian and Soy way are destroying the very Earth they purport to be trying to "save." The farming of the Earth is domesticating the Land. Forests are removed to make way for fields to plant mono-crops. In this process the balance of nature is upset and many species are displaced. The very species that you think you are saving by eating only vegetarian or vegan foods.

Fairy, can you elaborate on why you feel vegetarians are contributing more to the raping of the Earth than meat-eaters? I am stunned by your statements, in light of well documented statistics:

According to a 2006 United Nations initiative, the livestock industry is one of the largest contributors to environmental degradation worldwide, and modern practices of raising animals for food contributes on a "massive scale" to air and water pollution, land degradation, climate change, and loss of biodiversity. The initiative concluded that "the livestock sector emerges as one of the top two or three most significant contributors to the most serious environmental problems, at every scale from local to global."[154]
In July 2009 Nike and Timberland stopped buying leather from deforested Amazon Rainforest [155] a few weeks after Greenpeace report demonstrated the destruction caused by Amazon cattle ranchers. According to Arnold Newman every hamburger sold results in destruction of 6.25m2 of rain forest.[156]
In addition, animal agriculture is a large source of greenhouse gases and is responsible for 18 percent of the world's greenhouse gas emissions as measured in CO2 equivalents. By comparison, all of the world's transportation (including all cars, trucks, buses, trains, ships, and planes) emits 13.5 percent of the CO2. Animal farming produces 65 percent of human-related nitrous oxide and 37 percent of all human-induced methane. Methane has about 21 times more Global Warming Potential (GWP) than carbon dioxide and nitrous oxide has 296 times the GWP of CO2.[157]
Animals fed on grain, and those that rely on grazing, need far more water than grain crops.[158] According to the USDA, growing the crops necessary to feed farmed animals requires nearly half of the United States' water supply and 80 percent of its agricultural land. Additionally, animals raised for food in the U.S. consume 90 percent of the soy crop, 80 percent of the corn crop, and a total of 70 percent of its grain.[159]
When tracking food animal production from the feed trough to consumption, the inefficiencies of meat, milk and egg production range from 4:1 up to 54:1 energy input to protein output ratio. This firstly because the feed first needs to be grown before it is eaten by the cattle, and secondly because warm-blooded vertebrates need to use a lot of calories just to stay warm (unlike plants or insects)....Ecology professor David Pimentel has claimed, "If all the grain currently fed to livestock in the United States were consumed directly by people, the number of people who could be fed would be nearly 800 million."...According to the theory of trophic dynamics, it requires 10 times as many crops to feed animals being bred for meat production as it would to feed the same number of people on a vegetarian diet. Currently, 70 percent of all the wheat, corn, and other grain produced is fed to farmed animals.[163] This has led many proponents of vegetarianism to believe that it is ecologically irresponsible to consume meat.[164]

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism

That's not even counting the huge increase in medical costs, and, consequently, drugs ending up in municipal water supplies, due to rampant degenerative diseases which could have been prevented, in many cases, by a vegetarian diet.

[unity100]

Very interesting about the planet's chakras. I have believed for some time now, that our planet cannot fully be healed as long as billions of 2D animals are needlessly suffering on a daily basis. It is like a massive cancer in the body of the Earth that very few humans are paying attention to.

I find it interesting that cancer in humans is so rampant, and cancer rates among vegetarians are much, much lower than in meat-eaters. Could this be significant?

---

in actuality, all of our actions, thoughts, choices have huge impact on what happens in time/space, and that has a huge impact on our life in physical from what i understand. this is not only limited to the carnivorous - vegetarian issue, but actually any kind of actions and deeds, practically anything in regard to physical/astral. it is a wide, wide subject.

[fairyfarmgirl]

Everytime you cut down a forest in the interest of the Agriculture you are contributing to the Demise of the Earth. Agriculture is not in alignment with the Earth System. What is in alignment is Permaculture food producing forests that are ecologically diverse. This is the point I am making.

Think about it. Step outside of the Box that you define your eating proclivities by and see it from the perspective of the Earth.

I have lived very close to the Earth and in the past when I have been hungry in the middle of the winter when there are no apples or wild fruits to harvest... and animals have given themselves so that I may live and my family may live.

Being an Omnivore does not mean I am any less Spiritual than you or that guy over there. Being an Omnivore and eating consciously is a middle path that I feel is in alignment with the Closed Loop system of the Earth.

Any farming that creates fields where forests once were is out of harmony with the Earth System. Meadows that are created by the Forest are in harmony.

As far as medical costs are concerned I rarely go to the doctors. The last time I was in the care of a doctor was when I had my twins and they did not actually do anything to promote my health. It was the choices that I make to eat a natural diet with mostly regional foods that are as organic or naturally raised as possible that contribute to my health. The eshewing of additives such as MSG, Preservative, foods packaged in plastics, food colorants, and "vitamin enriched foods" as well as the genetically altered foods and the eshewing of salt and processed foods as much as I am able to and still live in a "modern" world is what contributes to my health.

What is better that Deer starve to death and then rot in the forest or for another to eat and be fed? What is better?

fairyfarmgirl
fairyfarmgirl

[unity100]

Everytime you cut down a forest in the interest of the Agriculture you are contributing to the Demise of the Earth. Agriculture is not in alignment with the Earth System. What is in alignment is Permaculture food producing forests that are ecologically diverse. This is the point I am making.

that is irrelevant to the spiritual question of removing another entity from physical plane to eat its body.

therefore i will take your arguments on their own angle and approach as thus, instead of taking spiritual aspect of the issue account. because, if one looks at it that way, s/he can even justify anything that exists in a given planet/society, on grounds of 'balance'. just because a balance exists, doesnt mean that it is something good.

first of all anything that can be conceived can be used for good ends, or evil ends. anything that can be conceived can be overused, overdone, and anything overdone can cause harm. it is not limited to agriculture.

it is possible to use arid, desert lands for agriculture, it is even possible to engage in agriculture without using any land at all, in hydroponic farms, even in space. there is no relevance in between agriculture and deforestation. deforestation happens, because there are economic or social elements in society choosing to go the easy way.

secondly, there is no fixed, defined, unchangeable 'earth system'. earth's ecology and biology was much different 100 million years earlier, it will be much much different 100 million years later -> that is, even if you start using desert, arid lands as agriculture, and this has an impact on overall earth ecology, that will result in a new system.

Think about it. Step outside of the Box that you define your eating proclivities by and see it from the perspective of the Earth.

let me put it this way :

any given entity, system, planet, solar system, galaxy, universe is in a state of balance at any given point. anything unbalanced gets into some kind of balance as soon as possible. balance exists everywhere.

if we take your balance approach, and assume that any given balance is a good thing, then there is absolutely no reason, or no logic in changing any given balance, because, well, a balance is a good thing and it should stay.

this also gives the below conclusions :

it is bad to try to polarize positively. because, since even a mid 3d entity has a certain balance of chakras, mindset, and resulting violet ray, it already is in a certain balance. so, trying to change that balance, would only be bad.

it would be bad to try to remove blockages from chakras. because, any blockage removed, will result in a net change of balance.

it would be bad to try to change the society positively. because, well, after all, a balance already exists, right ? even if it is a medieval feudal system, there is still balance, things work. therefore, there is a closed system. trying to change it would be blasphemy, since, messing with balances is bad.

............................

in reality, the perspective of earth, is no different than the perspective of an entity in it.

just like how an entity on the earth tries to evolve towards light, going through evolutionary densities, and choosing a path, planets also choose paths (due to choices of those upon them, as Ra says, because a planet becoming a societal complex is only possible with the entities on it unifying in a common seeking), and they pass through densities.

just like how an entity opens 2, 3th chakras and moves on to open 4th, the planet opens its chakras with the entities upon it, and moves on to these densities.

or, the entities may polarize negatively, and push a planet to a negative continuum.

in either case, the spiritual and energetical position of the planet would change, and it would also affect the fauna, flora, ecology, society, anything in it.

it is not far fetched to understand that the conditions of ecology in a service to self world are much vile than one on a positively polarized, 2d chakra clean and clear world, because any kind of spiritual, mental intent and energy configuration has space/time effects.

I have lived very close to the Earth and in the past when I have been hungry in the middle of the winter when there are no apples or wild fruits to harvest... and animals have given themselves so that I may live and my family may live.

i think the animals would disagree, if they were able to.

Being an Omnivore does not mean I am any less Spiritual than you or that guy over there. Being an Omnivore and eating consciously is a middle path that I feel is in alignment with the Closed Loop system of the Earth.

with this approach, a negatively polarized service to self entity, or an unaligned 3d entity currently on the face of the planet can easily justify his/her position, saying that s/he is choosing a middle path, or the other path, because it is in alignment with the current spiritual climate or the societal structure of earth.

and again, 'closed loop' does not mean 'good'. there are closed energy loops on service to self planets. that doesnt make them good or acceptable.

What is better that Deer starve to death and then rot in the forest or for another to eat and be fed? What is better?

when i approach this from love angle, i find the above sentence even more unbearable and intolerable.

im imagining me or one of my loved ones in deer's shoes, and im finding them killed, eaten by another entity with various justifications. despite, us wanting to live.

what is better is, the deer not being killed in order to have its body eaten. with your justification we can also justify killing and eating of individuals who are very close to 2d consciousness but newly graduated into 3d. 'what is better - them living out their lives and dying in agony or starvation, or feeding someone else'.

[Monica]

Everytime you cut down a forest in the interest of the Agriculture you are contributing to the Demise of the Earth. Agriculture is not in alignment with the Earth System. What is in alignment is Permaculture food producing forests that are ecologically diverse. This is the point I am making.

In that case, then wouldn't it make more sense to reduce the number of trees that are cut down?

We might not be able to eliminate agriculture altogether, but why not each do our part to reduce it?

The fact remains that most agriculture is for the purpose of feeding livestock. Look at the statistics I posted. If we can reduce the impact on the Earth by feeding the grains to humans directly instead of to cattle, then why not do that?

Think about it. Step outside of the Box that you define your eating proclivities by and see it from the perspective of the Earth.

It is precisely for the Earth, as well as the animals who inhabit this Earth, that I choose a vegetarian lifestyle.

I have lived very close to the Earth and in the past when I have been hungry in the middle of the winter when there are no apples or wild fruits to harvest... and animals have given themselves so that I may live and my family may live.

I won't judge your actions. I'm sure you did what you had to do at the time.

But I don't see how a particular incident in your life can be used to justify future actions. We cannot judge a person stranded in a snowstorm. But under normal circumstances, most of us don't encounter such dire conditions on a regular basis. Most of us are able to store carrots, potatoes, nuts and seeds for the winter. Seeds can be sprouted for live greens in the middle of winter. Nuts, seeds, and cooked grains can nourish a family just as well, even better, than animals.

Vegetarians can feed their families just fine in the winter, without shedding any blood. It just takes a bit of preparation.

Being an Omnivore does not mean I am any less Spiritual than you or that guy over there.

No one is judging you, Fairy! No one is saying you are any less spiritual.

Being an Omnivore and eating consciously is a middle path that I feel is in alignment with the Closed Loop system of the Earth.

What you consider the 'middle' and what I consider the 'middle' aren't the same.

Any farming that creates fields where forests once were is out of harmony with the Earth System. Meadows that are created by the Forest are in harmony.

OK. So, again, why increase that devastating impact by eating meat? When the meat industry is causing most of that deforestation? Or are you saying that you never buy meat from a grocery store? Do you only hunt wild animals in the forest?

Ironically, factory farm animals never get to enjoy the freedom a deer enjoys. Isn't the deer already living in balance with Nature, until humans enter the scene?

As far as medical costs are concerned I rarely go to the doctors. The last time I was in the care of a doctor was when I had my twins and they did not actually do anything to promote my health. It was the choices that I make to eat a natural diet with mostly regional foods that are as organic or naturally raised as possible that contribute to my health. The eshewing of additives such as MSG, Preservative, foods packaged in plastics, food colorants, and "vitamin enriched foods" as well as the genetically altered foods and the eshewing of salt and processed foods as much as I am able to and still live in a "modern" world is what contributes to my health.

I'm happy to hear that you and your family are healthy!

Nevertheless, I'm not referring to you personally when I claim that the consumption of meat increases the risk of cancer, heart disease, obesity, stroke, diabetes, etc. These are statistical facts.

You aren't a statistic. You are a person. This isn't about you personally. I am speaking in generalities, about the general population.

What is better that Deer starve to death and then rot in the forest or for another to eat and be fed? What is better?

I would say neither is better. I would choose to let the deer live, and feed myself and my family another way. I'm not responsible for the deer's life or death. Deer are losing their natural habitat, just like other wildlife are also, precisely because of factory farming! To justify killing the deer, who has lost his habitat largely because of the meat industry perpetuated by humans, doesn't make sense to me. So I personally could not kill a deer based on that logic. What I do know is that if I buy a piece of cow carcass from the grocery store, I have just contributed to the cause of that cow's death.

Again, no one is judging you, Fairy. We are discussing ideas, concepts and ideals.

[unity100]

I think noone should veer off from the core of the matter by thinking and expanding on situations specific to this planet. these conditions will change, society will change. they will be different in each planet.

what doesnt differ is the spiritual, metaphysical principles behind this.

evolution is a journey towards 100% positivity with wisdom. even if you cant totally reach it in this octave or the others. the direction is as such. we are basically going towards becoming small suns with all our chakras open.

do you find the sun taking anything from anything ? leave aside killing an entity and eating its body ? it radiates. it gives. it energizes. it gives things you know, and gives things you dont know.

thus, harming another entity for sustenance may be acceptable for an entity on a certain level. but, after a certain point, it will need to be left behind, in order to progress.

actually, after a certain point, even taking anything from another entity (even a fruit, or any kind of energy) without its consent will be need to be left behind, to progress.

probably, after a certain point, even taking anything (without killing, destroying or harming it) from another entity with its consent, but without practicing wisdom in regard to the consequences of that taking will be left behind, to progress.

it is highly probable that after a point, you wont take anything from any outside source at all.

thus, i think it is much more beneficial and fruitful to dwell on the spiritual, metaphysical implications of this in regard to spiritual progress, than any minor details that are specific to this planet.

[fairyfarmgirl]

Just to be clear, I am not offended.

Another note: the topic is judgemental. Thus you are judging others.

Further, as classism ceases and the forest returns eating will be an afterthought... something one does without planning. Feel a litttle hungry knosh on some fruit and nuts. Anastasia of Russia speaks very clearly about this.

Eventually, all Beings reach a point where eating as a form of energy transferance becomes rather primative. As the vibration rises the need for physical sustenance is nullified and replaced with gaining energy from that which is around you-- no eating just energizing.

There are beings on this planet that are highly STO and they do consume Fish and other mammals as part of their diet: Dolphins and toothed Whales.

I am not upset or offended. I am simply offering discourse with you concerning the eating proclivities that you may or may not choose.

I wish you well!

Also, I refrain and go to great lengths to avoid any factory farmed animals. It is really the very antithesis of being a fairy farm girl to take the animal out of the forest feed it all the wrong foods and then treat it with great belligerence. Not Fairy at all.

Further, to insinuate that anyone who is an omnivore is STS is highly judgemental. I wish you well.

fairyfarmgirl

[Monica]

Just to be clear, I am not offended.

Glad to hear that! I was concerned that you might be, so I wanted you to know that no offense was intended.

Another note: the topic is judgemental. Thus you are judging others.

By that logic, I suppose it could be said that you and I are both judging others, but based on different criteria.

I don't see it as judging others. I see it as discernment of actions that some find acceptable and others do not. We are each entitled to the expression of our own views.

Eventually, all Beings reach a point where eating as a form of energy transferance becomes rather primative. As the vibration rises the need for physical sustenance is nullified and replaced with gaining energy from that which is around you-- no eating just energizing.

Do you think that happens spontaneously? Or is it a process?

I think of it as a process...with eliminating dead animals from one's diet as the first logical step. I can't imagine going from a standard diet to breatharianism overnight!

There are beings on this planet that are highly STO and they do consume Fish and other mammals as part of their diet: Dolphins and toothed Whales.

True. But they consume them live. That makes a huge difference.

Also, are not dolphins and whales 3D entities, just like us? Maybe more advanced than us, but still 3D. So I'm not sure they're necessarily role models in this regard. They are certainly more advanced than we are in the sense that they aren't violent...but that doesn't necessarily mean that everything they do is optimal or ideal.

I wish you well!

And the same to you!

Also, I refrain and go to great lengths to avoid any factory farmed animals. It is really the very antithesis of being a fairy farm girl to take the animal out of the forest feed it all the wrong foods and then treat it with great belligerence. Not Fairy at all.

I assumed so...glad to hear it! That is something we can agree on!

Further, to insinuate that anyone who is an omnivore is STS is highly judgemental.

Not sure when anyone did that.

Fairy, I invite you to separate actions from people.

A person can engage in an act that is inherently STS without being labeled STS. (What is that other 49% anyway?)

Disapproving of an action is discernment. Disapproving of a person is judgment. That's how I see it anyway.

I personally and vehemently disapprove of eating animals. But I do not judge people who eat animals. There is a fine line between discernment and judgment. We have the right to disagree on this. It needn't be construed as a judgment.

[fairyfarmgirl]

I believe not all things happen as a process. I believe that LEAPS of evolution occur seemingly overnight.

Many of us are coded at our core to be of the Angelics. Leaping to Pranic Eating (building energy by giving and recieving) is simply a return to our originial design.

Acceptance is a tricky thing. For one they can say they are not judging another being but their actions and at the same time if you were to hang out in a room full of omnivores would you be able to embrace them as your brothers and sisters or would you shrink in horror considering them to be murderers of chicken and fish?

fairyfarmgirl

[Monica]

[quote='fairyfarmgirl' pid='16408' dateline='1278933954']
I believe not all things happen as a process. I believe that LEAPS of evolution occur seemingly overnight.

Many of us are coded at our core to be of the Angelics. Leaping to Pranic Eating (building energy by giving and recieving) is simply a return to our originial design.[/quote]

That explains our differences in viewpoint. In my view, I see no reason to wait for something to happen, when I can actively work towards it now. But thank you for sharing your viewpoint!

[quote='fairyfarmgirl' pid='16408' dateline='1278933954']
Acceptance is a tricky thing. For one they can say they are not judging another being but their actions and at the same time if you were to hang out in a room full of omnivores would you be able to embrace them as your brothers and sisters
[/quote]

Gosh, Fairy, I do that on a daily basis! And I'm doing it right now.

[quote='fairyfarmgirl' pid='16408' dateline='1278933954']
would you shrink in horror considering them to be murderers of chicken and fish?
[/quote]

Vegetarians would never be able to socialize at all, if we did that.

---

[quote='unity100' pid='16401' dateline='1278900153']
I think noone should veer off from the core of the matter by thinking and expanding on situations specific to this planet. these conditions will change, society will change. they will be different in each planet.

what doesnt differ is the spiritual, metaphysical principles behind this.[/quote]

Exactly! Which is exactly what I am interested in discussing. We all have individual circumstances to deal with. If we have an understanding of the principles involved, we can make conscious choices.

[quote='unity100' pid='16401' dateline='1278900153']
evolution is a journey towards 100% positivity with wisdom. even if you cant totally reach it in this octave or the others. the direction is as such. we are basically going towards becoming small suns with all our chakras open. [/quote]

That is a very key point about direction. It's very significant that graduation to 4D only requires 51% STO. Which leads me to surmise: What happens in 4D? Is the entity refined further in its polarity? Is 100% reached? Or does a 4D entity graduate to 5D with the same percentage?

I would think that the qualities needed for graduation to 4D are further refined in 4D, at the end of which time the soul is ready to take on new lessons in preparation for 5D.

[quote='unity100' pid='16401' dateline='1278900153']
do you find the sun taking anything from anything ? leave aside killing an entity and eating its body ? it radiates. it gives. it energizes. it gives things you know, and gives things you dont know.[/quote]

I hadn't thought of it like that, but wow, that's true. With a focus on our ultimate destination, these difficult issues become clear.

[quote='unity100' pid='16401' dateline='1278900153']
thus, harming another entity for sustenance may be acceptable for an entity on a certain level. but, after a certain point, it will need to be left behind, in order to progress.[/quote]

Even those who eat animals have agreed on this point. The question becomes, then, at what point, and for what reasons, does that action of 'leaving behind' occur? What is the value of reaching to that point consciously? That is something each will have to decide for themselves.

[quote='unity100' pid='16401' dateline='1278900153']
thus, i think it is much more beneficial and fruitful to dwell on the spiritual, metaphysical implications of this in regard to spiritual progress, than any minor details that are specific to this planet.
[/quote]

Agreed, as regards our individual progress. However, here is another factor to consider: our awareness of Earth's plight during this difficult transition. Of immediate relevance, in my opinion, is what impact our choices have on the planet as a whole, at this particular nexus.

Many of us are actively meditating for the benefit of the planet, working to heal the wounds, etc. Because many have consciously chosen this service, I am interested in exploring the efficiency of such service, in light of what I see as a gaping contradiction.

To use an analogy: It seems to me like putting a band-aid on a would that is gushing blood. Wouldn't it make more sense to stop the bleeding first?

So many Lightworkers are absolutely devoted to being of service, in regards to healing the Earth. Would this service not be much more effective, if the massive, indeed massive, amount of 2D suffering were lessened?

So, while I do agree with you that, in regards to our soul progress, I am interested in exploring these concepts as they apply to any planet, anytime, anywhere. At the same time, I am also interested in exploring how these principles apply to our current planetary plight.

What I am not interested in, personally, is discussing individual reasons for having this or that diet. I'd rather focus on what we can do to help the planet heal, and your point about Earth's 2nd chakra really leaped out at me.

---

[quote='unity100' pid='16352' dateline='1278799807']
destroying any discrete entity, is destroying a co creator...there is infinity to discover. the more the focus generating entities, ie co creators about, at any given point, the more the rate of discovery and the subsequent total collective joy of all existence. destroying any focus generating entity slows down this discovery rate, and reduces our total joy. its a crime against ourselves.[quote]

Can you define discrete entity? and focus generating entity?

[quote='unity100' pid='16352' dateline='1278799807']
if you ask me, this whole charade that is up here and in many other places, was actually intended to teach and perpetuate this kind of system. and, the planets gone haywire, like this, are those in which what not to do is taught to entities that have been rather slow in getting the proper lessons.[/quote]

As with war...Yes, this planet has gone haywire in many ways.

[unity100]

Another note: the topic is judgemental. Thus you are judging others.

Further, to insinuate that anyone who is an omnivore is STS is highly judgemental. I wish you well.

discerning negative/positive polarizing aspects of life, identifying them, analyzing them and counseling each other as to their effects and what should be done is something good.

if the opposite has been true, we would need to drop all talk about everything regard to polarization, service, purity and then just accept everything as they are, and do practically nothing. there would be no need for Ra material. there would be no need for new age or new age channelings.

Eventually, all Beings reach a point where eating as a form of energy transferance becomes rather primative. As the vibration rises the need for physical sustenance is nullified and replaced with gaining energy from that which is around you-- no eating just energizing.

the concept of feeding does not change. an entity which still has the mental/behavioral habit of being able to accept destruction of another entity and consuming its body for energy, can exhibit similar mindset in higher dimensions. since in the higher densities, thoughts become things and actions far faster than a heavy lower density, an entity which can accept in such thoughts becomes a danger to its environment. think, and it happens.

therefore, purity of thought and nonharmfulness as well as the amount of service needs to increase as densities go by.

There are beings on this planet that are highly STO and they do consume Fish and other mammals as part of their diet: Dolphins and toothed Whales.

dolphins and whales are 3rd density, some of them probably harvestable to 4th. they are as advanced as the human society on the face of this planet, even if they are living more in compliance with the current nature of the planet. that doesnt make them an example to be followed in regard to spiritual advancedness.

That is a very key point about direction. It's very significant that graduation to 4D only requires 51% STO. Which leads me to surmise: What happens in 4D? Is the entity refined further in its polarity? Is 100% reached? Or does a 4D entity graduate to 5D with the same percentage?

I would think that the qualities needed for graduation to 4D are further refined in 4D, at the end of which time the soul is ready to take on new lessons in preparation for 5D.

it is highly probable that due to increasing empathy and transparency of thought, the entities will become more sensitive to other entities, and change their behavior accordingly, become less and less harmful, coarse as time goes by, and more and more giving.

but, if we look into what Ra says, despite there is great positive polarity (99% ? i dont remember) on 4d graduation, the graduation actually requires wisdom, ie, understanding of the dance of life.

Even those who eat animals have agreed on this point. The question becomes, then, at what point, and for what reasons, does that action of 'leaving behind' occur? What is the value of reaching to that point consciously? That is something each will have to decide for themselves.

this is an important point.

for most of the wanderers on this planet, that time may have already long past. some of them might have needed to get past that point even earlier in their lives.

one should never let go of the understanding of thoughts, intentions are solid concepts in time/space. they have immediate consequences. and anything that changes in time/space affects the space/time eventually.

intent and purity is paramount. accepting and maintaining any facet of the brutal, carnivorous and vile nature of the planetary aspect, participating in it, and keeping it inside your spiritual domain will inevitably have its consequences. it can open possibilities for all kinds of heavy, negative thought patterns to get caught in one's mind, it can also allow possibilities for negative natured thought forms to get into energy fields of the individual much easier. all of these have consequences.

Agreed, as regards our individual progress. However, here is another factor to consider: our awareness of Earth's plight during this difficult transition. Of immediate relevance, in my opinion, is what impact our choices have on the planet as a whole, at this particular nexus.

Many of us are actively meditating for the benefit of the planet, working to heal the wounds, etc. Because many have consciously chosen this service, I am interested in exploring the efficiency of such service, in light of what I see as a gaping contradiction.

To use an analogy: It seems to me like putting a band-aid on a would that is gushing blood. Wouldn't it make more sense to stop the bleeding first?

So many Lightworkers are absolutely devoted to being of service, in regards to healing the Earth. Would this service not be much more effective, if the massive, indeed massive, amount of 2D suffering were lessened?

So, while I do agree with you that, in regards to our soul progress, I am interested in exploring these concepts as they apply to any planet, anytime, anywhere. At the same time, I am also interested in exploring how these principles apply to our current planetary plight.

What I am not interested in, personally, is discussing individual reasons for having this or that diet. I'd rather focus on what we can do to help the planet heal, and your point about Earth's 2nd chakra really leaped out at me.

first step to this could be to refuse ripping off the flesh of this planet and consuming it for sustenance - for, the animals on this planet as well as plants, are evolved from this planet's 1d material, they are natives of earth. let me put it in a spiritual context :

If the earth is mother, and it is, eating animals is little different than eating her flesh. However, eating fruits is akin to feeding off her breast, if you pardon the misnomer. actually, there is nothing to pardon about this analogy, for the latter particular concept is probably one of the most holistic aspects of this octave.

Can you define discrete entity? and focus generating entity?

imagine the 1st density, red ray, materials. that density is the latter stages of 8th density of last octave, (as Ra says) and therefore they are more in unison with infinity. and therefore, probably more uniform. same probably goes for the latter parts of 8d in this octave.

these parts of existence, from what i understand, are not as individualized like the other parts of the existence. they are more wholly 'the creator' than you and me, if you will.

as we go towards the middle of the octave, it seems, individualization increases. early 2d creatures act on their own, move about independently of the 1d existence, and as we go higher in 2d, the individualization increases, with 2d entity increasingly exhibiting certain character, despite belonging to a certain group consciousness. naturally, this group consciousness is a more individualized, characterized portion of infinity, when compared to the 1d existence. also, being conscious of being a separate entity increases as we go by the ladder towards end of 2d. (actually one can easily say that different characteristics also exist in 1d too, some manifest as gaseous materials, some manifest as liquid, solid, with each subdivision having innumerable different material manifestations of different character). after a certain point in 2d, character becomes permanent and totally individual in the 2d entity, and that entity becomes totally self aware, and becomes a mind/body/spirit complex instead of a mind/spirit occupying a body. then, we have a 3d entity.

the following densities see the entity go more and more in unison with the infinity again, culminating in the return to infinity (possibly) at the end of 7d. in the octave this parabole occurs (separating from infinity, becoming an entity and then going back to infinity again), a different character, an aspect of the infinity is seen and learned in the persona of that entity.

as the individualization rises, entities act more like independent focuses, independent generators, co creators than an unified sea of consciousness it seems. compare your own mind/body/spirit complex to the consciousness that manifests in the chair under you. thus, the burden/weight (karma, if you will, tho it is not similar) of destroying any higher focus becomes more burdensome, damaging than any lower focus. actually, if you destroy many focuses in very low order, you may still harm the creation in the same way too. (imagine you destroyed a seafull of bacteria)

so, with that logic, it is much better to sustain on 1d material than sustaining on higher d material, directly.

basically, if we ate sand or air, and processed it to survive, we would be harming the infinity much less, and destroying the individualization of the infinity much less. if we breathed and consumed gases, we would be doing that even less, and actually be doing more of a service, since 1d needs to be moved, changed about to evolve and invidiualize.

Trees come to mind. plant life comes to mind. They are basically doing this, even if they are doing it with rather organic, higher order material in 1d. However, their sustenance is much more divine than ours due to above rationalization, and, not surprisingly, plant life are almost entirely androgynous, each individual being both male, and female. that means, they are manifesting much more in balance than us, and therefore, probably in much more direct and maximum contact at any given point in their development. if one thinks about the properties of plant life, what effects/feelings does this plant life have on us, or give us, the situation becomes even more evident.

thus, the basic bottom line is ; it is good to sustain on material closer to 1d than to attempt destroying more individualized portions of infinity.

[Monica]

I doubt that this is anywhere near representative of the general population, but it's kinda cool nonetheless:

cnn.com poll shows 18% of respondents claim to be vegetarian

(click on 'Could you give up eating meat?')

[airwaves]

(click on 'Could you give up eating meat?')

Its way down, on the bottom of the page, in the category labeled "Living".

And great discussion, I am slowly working towards becoming a vegan. I have found most of the thread to be very informative.

[Monica]

And great discussion, I am slowly working towards becoming a vegan. I have found most of the thread to be very informative.

I'm glad to hear this thread has been of value! I'm working towards vegan too. Although I don't have a personal issue with humanely, organically raised, hormone-free cheese and eggs (since nothing died), I'm finding the raw foods vegan diet to be increasingly appealing. I did a search for 'raw foods' on amazon.com and was just blown away by the vast selection of recipe books! Last time I tried raw foods there were very few resources available.

---

Check this out. A must see! So much for the idea of "We were naturally meant to prey on animals for food."

Dog Cat and Rat

[Peregrinus]

>>>>

Veganomicron

is the only one you will need

[Monica]

Bumping this thread, since the topic was discussed on Carla's radio show today, and this thread mentioned.

[BrownEye]

Since I was here last I have become vegan. It has cleaned up my mind so much that I am dumping all possessions and leaving the country, heading to where the food is. I have found that a huge amount of like minded folk have already done just that, and more are in the motion to go as I am.

My comprehension of the saying "cleanliness is next to godliness" would be......clean diet builds a clean body- clean body builds a clean mind- clean mind builds a clean spirit/soul.

A clean diet seems to be a starting point for many that are spiritual. Gabriel Cousens has mentioned that spirituality seems to be an after effect of a clean diet. That cleaning the body automatically created a change in their mind/awareness.

[Meerie]

From Qu'O, Oct. 16 2010:
"One valid choice that many of those who have awakened have made is not to eat meat and to find ways to furnish the body with the protein that meat offers by eating other substances, such as legumes, which contain protein. [1]

Another choice that an awakened entity has, as the questioner said, is to move to the purchase only of meats that have been humanely slaughtered. There are two sources of such meats that are generally available to entities within a reasonable amount of distance from where they live. One is to seek out a kosher store [2] which sells meat, knowing that the priests of that religion have treated animals well and have slaughtered them in a sacred ritual which is taken most seriously by those priests.

The other is to find a biodynamic source where the same feeling of sacredness surrounds the appreciation of mammals while they live and the humane slaughter of them when it is time for them to feed their humans.

And as the one known as J said, barring those choices, there is always the metaphysically correct choice of relating to the animal in that timeless condition which is called “metaphysical time” wherein all things occur simultaneously, so that you are able to contact any animal, before you eat it, no matter how abused or how slaughtered. And as you contact this animal, you express your love of this animal and your appreciation for all that the animal has gone through in order to give you its energy, its consciousness, such as it is, and its love, which is very real. So, in praise, prayer and thanksgiving you heal the division between you and the meat and the animal from which that meat came.

And as you do this to your meat, dancing with the meat, becoming one with the meat, you are in effect lifting that energy to the infinite Creator, blessing it and healing all that has gone before, for the animal and for you."

I am sure you all know that Hitler was a vegetarian… not eating meat does not automatically make you a better person. It is not what goes into your mouth that counts but what comes out of it… some Jesus quote.
I have a colleague here who is a die-hard vegetarian… you should see her. She is pale as a sheet, spotty complexion, prone to hysterics and always goes on about how she is so conscious of everything she eats and eats so healthy blablabla… not to mention she suffers from extreme anemia. Doctor found out her iron levels are non-existent. I sometimes think “it would not do her harm to eat meat occasionally”… meat can also help to ground a person (she is hysterical, as I already mentioned) But she will jump into your face if you talk about eating meat.
I have a problem with the fanatism that shows in so many vegetarians / vegans… that does not seem truly spiritual to me. Spirituality and fanatism is incompatible in my view.

[Monica]

From Qu'O, Oct. 16 2010:
"One valid choice that many of those who have awakened have made is not to eat meat and to find ways to furnish the body with the protein that meat offers by eating other substances, such as legumes, which contain protein. [1]

Thank you for sharing this quote. It may be helpful for some. It is one of the very few Q'uo quotes that doesn't resonate with me.

It is not the way of Q'uo to tell us what to do, but to offer choices. And Q'uo always issues a disclaimer, for us to accept that which resonates.

I am sure you all know that Hitler was a vegetarian… not eating meat does not automatically make you a better person.

That's true. And we all know plenty of people, including most of the people on this forum, who are beautiful, loving people.

It is not what goes into your mouth that counts but what comes out of it… some Jesus quote.

Personally, I think it's both. We don't know if Jesus actually said that, since some other person wrote those words. Here are some other words attributed to Jesus, which very clearly indicate that it does indeed count, as to what goes into our mouths and what actions we take.

Essene Gosel Of Peace

This beautiful 'gospel' fills the gap of Jesus' teachings on diet and lifestyle. Whether actually written by Jesus or not, it's well worth reading and considering, in my opinion.

I have a colleague here who is a die-hard vegetarian… you should see her. She is pale as a sheet, spotty complexion, prone to hysterics and always goes on about how she is so conscious of everything she eats and eats so healthy blablabla… not to mention she suffers from extreme anemia. Doctor found out her iron levels are non-existent. I sometimes think “it would not do her harm to eat meat occasionally”… meat can also help to ground a person (she is hysterical, as I already mentioned) But she will jump into your face if you talk about eating meat.
I have a problem with the fanatism that shows in so many vegetarians / vegans… that does not seem truly spiritual to me. Spirituality and fanatism is incompatible in my view.

I know an animal-eater who is a bigot. He is always in everyone's faces about his racism and religious and political views, and has complete disdain for anyone who disagrees with him. He is overweight, and suffers from high blood pressure, high cholesterol, and diabetes. His wife, also an animal-eater, just got diagnosed with cancer. She too is a bigot. Actually, I know a lot of people like that!

We can always find examples of sick, unbalanced people on both sides of the debate.

But overall, in general, vegetarians are healthier. That cannot be denied. It is statistical fact. Vegetarians, as a group, have less cancer, diabetes, heart disease, diabetes, stroke, obesity, etc. All the biggies. That is a statistical fact and speaks volumes about the end result, despite the fact that the group includes those who eat junk food, smoke, etc. Even with those factors taken into consideration, vegetarians are still healthier, and vegans healthier still, as a group, statistically compared to those who also do those things but eat animals.

Are some anemic? Sure. Being a vegetarian just means the person doesn't eat animals. It doesn't necessarily mean they eat enough leafy green vegetables to meet their iron needs, even though it's easy to do that and avoid anemia. As with any diet, common sense must be applied. I've met a few vegetarians who smoke, drink sodas and eat candy bars!

Hey wait, I've met a few animal-eaters who smoke, drink sodas and eat candy bars!

I apologize if I sound a bit facetious here. I can see how your co-worker might seem self-righteous, but is it possible that what you are interpreting as self-righteousness is actually just passion for a cause she sincerely believes in? Is it self-righteous when people want to protect the environment, feed the homeless, fight oppression, etc.?

Perhaps, it might be helpful to try to understand why this cause is so important to her.

You may be correct that she is missing some nutrients, which might also account for some of her emotional issues. Diet affects us emotionally, no doubt about that. But, respectfully, I believe it is erroneous to assume that her eating animal flesh would solve her problems. There are plenty of ways to address anemia without eating animals.

There was a time during my 27 years of being vegetarian that I suffered from health problems. In my desperation, I allowed myself to be convinced that eating animals might solve my problem. So I did, for a whole year. It was very difficult for me. The only way I could eat it was by smothering it in hot salsa and pretending it was tofu!

But, it didn't even work! It didn't help me at all. So I returned to my vegetarian diet, and stayed sick a few more years, until finally I found what was causing my illness, and was healed. It had nothing to do with the lack of animal flesh in my diet, as many well-intentioned friends and doctors had told me.

Whenever we meet a vegetarian who suffers from health challenges, it's easy to assume the lack of animal flesh is the cause. But I invite everyone to consider: Think of how many people you know who have cancer, heart disease, obesity, diabetes, etc. Do you automatically assume that it's because they eat animals?

Not likely. Eating animals is accepted, so it's assumed that they are sick because they don't exercise, eat too much junk, etc.

Which are all contributing factors, of course. And yet, eating animals has been proven to also be a contributing factor. It is possible to eat lean meats instead of fatty, fried foods and reduce the risk factor, but even lean meat has cholesterol and other elusive elements that have been shown to increase the risk of cancer.

So, although it's certainly not the only factor, it is actually more accurate to say that when people who suffer from common diseases, it's at least partially because of eating animals, than to say that when a vegetarian sick, it's because they don't eat animals.

---

Since I was here last I have become vegan. It has cleaned up my mind so much that I am dumping all possessions and leaving the country, heading to where the food is. I have found that a huge amount of like minded folk have already done just that, and more are in the motion to go as I am.

My comprehension of the saying "cleanliness is next to godliness" would be......clean diet builds a clean body- clean body builds a clean mind- clean mind builds a clean spirit/soul.

A clean diet seems to be a starting point for many that are spiritual. Gabriel Cousens has mentioned that spirituality seems to be an after effect of a clean diet. That cleaning the body automatically created a change in their mind/awareness.

Yes, there is quite a huge movement! And I agree that cleansing the body of animal vibrations can affect the consciousness. That was my experience anyway. Pickle, please tell us more about this movement, your experience, and let us know how it works out for you!

[Namaste]

>>>>

Veganomicron

is the only one you will need

Thank you brother. I've been wanting a book and this popped up in typical synchronistic style. An imminent purchase :¬)

[Aaron]

From Qu'O, Oct. 16 2010:
"One valid choice that many of those who have awakened have made is not to eat meat and to find ways to furnish the body with the protein that meat offers by eating other substances, such as legumes, which contain protein. [1]

Thank you for sharing this quote. It may be helpful for some. It is one of the very few Q'uo quotes that doesn't resonate with me.

It is not the way of Q'uo to tell us what to do, but to offer choices. And Q'uo always issues a disclaimer, for us to accept that which resonates.

Hi, Monica.

How does that Q'uote not resonate with you? To me, it seems like Q'uo is saying "One option is this:" That's like opening a door of possibility within the mind of the listener. It's like offering a gift. I don't see any free will infringement there.

I also agree from experience with you and Pickle that cutting meat out of the diet leads to a cleaner, lighter body.

[Monica]

Hi, Monica.

How does that Q'uote not resonate with you? To me, it seems like Q'uo is saying "One option is this:" That's like opening a door of possibility within the mind of the listener. It's like offering a gift. I don't see any free will infringement there.

There is no free will infringement. I agree that Q'uo was offering possibilities and leaving it up to the person to do as they wish.

I resonate with probably 99% of what Q'uo says. I don't resonate with this particular one, because it seems to imply that one choice is equally acceptable as another.

Ultimately, that is true. But for an entity who is STO-oriented, I don't see how a choice that involves cruelty can be the same as a choice that doesn't involve cruelty. Thus, that quote, in just offering 'equally acceptable' options, can easily be used to justify what I consider, shall we say, 'less optimum' choices.

No judgment towards anyone is intended. I'm just answering your question, since you asked!

[Pablísimo]

How does that Q'uote not resonate with you? To me, it seems like Q'uo is saying "One option is this:" That's like opening a door of possibility within the mind of the listener. It's like offering a gift. I don't see any free will infringement there.

I can't speak for Monica, but in the Quo'te that Meerie provided, I find that I only resonate with the first line. The rest of it, not at all because it implies (to me) that all 3 options listed are equally valid when pursuing the STO path, where I feel that 1 is clearly superior, 1 somewhat helpful, and the other not at all. One of the things I appreciate about Qu'o, and all the L/L contacts, are the constant reminder to the seeker to take what resonates and discard the rest. That is excellent advice. And in the spirit of that advice, please consider the following:

I think we need to keep in mind the potential for distortion in consciously channeled messages. Unlike in the Ra contact, Qu'o is channeled with full waking consciousness and thus, in my view, there is far more potential for distortion due to bias of the group.

We may never settle the veg vs animal flesh issue in the context of the spiritual life on this thread. It is not a simple matter. However, what I believe is undeniable is that this topic arouses fierce passions in people. Discussing the consumption of animal flesh, especially in a spiritual context, causes intense reactions in many of us, on both sides of the issue. There is an ardor, a passion, an almost uncontrollable urge to speak one's mind and perspective on the issue that the topic provokes. It's all too easy to dismiss a vegetarian stating their cause as deluded and self-righteous...the same as one could dismiss one who chooses to eat animals as just guilty and deluded. I hope we can be more mature than that, but with this post I'm not stating a position. What I AM trying to establish most of all is that this topic is one that is hard to have an ambiguous view on -- the vast majority of us tend to have a strong bias one way or the other.

So it would seem to me that any area where passions are this strong would be a prime candidate for distortion in conscious channeling. How could the channel and the group NOT have a strong opinion on something like this? This de-tuning due to bias would degrade the quality of the channeled information. Let's examine the next part of that quote in this context:

....One is to seek out a kosher store [2] which sells meat, knowing that the priests of that religion have treated animals well and have slaughtered them in a sacred ritual which is taken most seriously by those priests....."

This is simply not true. Jewish rabbis generally do not raise these animals and so one cannot say that they "have treated animals well", nor do they normally slaughter them directly so one also cannot say it is done in "a sacred ritual which is taken most seriously by those priests". Kosher rules refer to how an animal is slaughtered and how the flesh is handled afterwards. There is no guarantee that an animal was treated well during their LIFETIME, any more than an organic label necessarily means that an animal was treated well. There are many common misconceptions about this topic, but the slaughter does not have to be done by a rabbi, it can be (and usually is) done by an agent that they approve of. There is no sacred blessing that goes on during the ceremony. The ritual is basically that a sharp knife is used to cut the throat of the animal and it is allowed to bleed to death through the neck. The animal is not stunned beforehand.

So you can raise an animal in typical, terrible, agri-business factory farm conditions, and as long as an approved agent slashes their neck with a sharp knife and allows the animal to bleed to death, it's Kosher. Of course, there are also post-slaughter handling rules that are very strict involving inspection of the carcass and sanitation, but in no way does purchasing Kosher meat tell the seeker anything about how the animal was treated.

And in regards to the slaughter method, proponents of this approach maintain that it is a more humane way to kill the animal, that they lose consciousness within a few seconds. There is a fierce debate on this topic as opponents of the practice say that stunning the animal first would be more humane and that animals killed in the Kosher fashion often survive for several minutes in agony. It's far from settled, but you can read more about Kosher topics and watch graphic videos of this method of slaughter here:

http://www.peta.org/features/kosher-vegetarian.aspx
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HZnQmc3U9I

-----------

Of course Qu'o would know all of this about animal flesh killed in the Kosher fashion, and I'm sure Carla didn't make up the channeled message. What I'd like to offer for consideration is that perhaps because of her own personal bias that eating animal flesh is acceptable, and her own personal beliefs that Kosher or "biodynamic" animal flesh is more acceptable, that some de-tuning occurred in this contact. That's the only explanation I have for why something so factually inaccurate would have made it into a Qu'o transcript. It's also why I suspect the topic was not explored in any depth in the Ra material. Strong bias detunes contact.

That said, let's not judge the channel, nor anyone else as we debate this topic further, respectfully and with care. We all have our own biases, myself included, and we are all struggling to find balance and do what's right in the confusing phase of existence we find ourselves in. None of us has all the answers and should remember to be humble and kind to our other-selves as we discuss this issue. However, I think we owe it to ourselves to use our own discernment when evaluating channeled information, even when the source is well known and with established purity. Discernment.

Love to all

[BrownEye]

I am sure you all know that Hitler was a vegetarian… not eating meat does not automatically make you a better person. It is not what goes into your mouth that counts but what comes out of it… some Jesus quote.
I have a colleague here who is a die-hard vegetarian… you should see her. She is pale as a sheet, spotty complexion, prone to hysterics and always goes on about how she is so conscious of everything she eats and eats so healthy blablabla… not to mention she suffers from extreme anemia. Doctor found out her iron levels are non-existent. I sometimes think “it would not do her harm to eat meat occasionally”… meat can also help to ground a person (she is hysterical, as I already mentioned) But she will jump into your face if you talk about eating meat.
I have a problem with the fanatism that shows in so many vegetarians / vegans… that does not seem truly spiritual to me. Spirituality and fanatism is incompatible in my view.

I should mention that Hitler was NOT 100% vegetarian. And his downfall is a result of subtle coercions and schizophrenia brought on by his dietician through poisoning.

Jesus did not at any time promote the killing of animals, nor the eating of flesh. The Bible specifically gives us 120 years of life until the allowance of eating flesh, then allows for 70 years of life. Do not underestimate the ability of man to modify the Book to more squarely fit into the culture of the time.

I come from a largely meat eating background. I did not abstain from meat because of compassion for animals. The reasons were purely to regain health. Now, what I find amazing is that AFTER cleaning up, suddenly compassion appears. Along with Empathy. One of my favorite pastimes is visiting the zoo. My last visit somehow put one of the animals minds inside of mine, and I experienced the dimmest spark of existence in it, which made me kind of shocked, and sad at the same time.

It is possible to get sick from becoming a vegan or vegetarian. It is the result of no research, low nutrient density foods, and primarily ignorance.

---

Maybe think about the concept of higher density forms that feed on lower densities. Would it suddenly become a bad thing if they decided to do the less acceptable diet (injestion of humans) or would it be just fine and dandy, since certain groups of that form decided we tasted better? (maybe use of empathy would better cause decision for that one?)

[Aaron]

... because it seems to imply that one choice is equally acceptable as another.

Ahh I see. Thank you, I didn't understand that part of your approach before. Before I say anything more, let me tell you that I'm not trying to change your viewpoints on anything at all, and I have the utmost respect for you as a person, like I do for all the members on bring4th. But I recognize the path you've taken for 27 years (longer than I've been alive!) with this issue at your side. I would also like to say that I don't hold a position on either side of the issue. I still haven't figured it out myself! (Although I am of the opinion that once a responsible and mature relationship with the planet is established, our population can be nourished entirely with plant material. I seem to have distant memories of it being done on third density venus... ) So any information I'm giving isn't trying to sway anyone to one side or the other, it's just information that I've found interesting and expanding on the subject.

With that in mind, I would like to invite you to read a Kryon channeling session that addresses the topic of consumption of animals. You may have already read it or it may not resonate with you at all. If either of those are the case, I apologize in advance.

http://www.kryon.com/k_channel10_syracuse.html (In case a long response comes up to this non-L/L Research material, the thread for discussion of Kryon is at http://bring4th.org/forums/showthread.php?tid=1752

Scroll down to the part with the bold heading "Animals", keeping your eyes open for the important words, "at the moment."

... I feel that 1 is clearly superior, 1 somewhat helpful, and the other not at all.

Thank you for that extraordinary post, Pablísimo! I agree with what you said about possible distortion. Thank you for bringing the details of those Q'uotes to light, and for the reminder of discretion, even within a trusted source.

I feel the same way about the options pointed out by Q'uo. I think that each person must make their own choice, and depending upon the position of the species, there are better and worse choices to make. Actually, the scene from Avatar came to mind where the female cat person had just saved the main character from the dog creatures by killing one, and she sent its spirit back to the planet with respect, giving it a blessing. Although that situation was self-defense, that part of the movie touched me (as did a lot of the rest of it, cuz it's a very spiritual movie!). I think that, as a species, we would be in a much better place if we could at least get up that level rather than remain at the unconscious, inhumane slaughtering behavior that we currently display.

The Bible specifically gives us 120 years of life until the allowance of eating flesh, then allows for 70 years of life.

Can you cite the place in the bible where this is talked about? I'm not sure I understand the meaning of your statement here.

[@ndy]

Of course Qu'o would know all of this about animal flesh killed in the Kosher fashion, and I'm sure Carla didn't make up the channeled message. What I'd like to offer for consideration is that perhaps because of her own personal bias that eating animal flesh is acceptable, and her own personal beliefs that Kosher or "biodynamic" animal flesh is more acceptable, that some de-tuning occurred in this contact. That's the only explanation I have for why something so factually inaccurate would have made it into a Qu'o transcript. It's also why I suspect the topic was not explored in any depth in the Ra material. Strong bias detunes contact.

That said, let's not judge the channel, nor anyone else as we debate this topic further, respectfully and with care. We all have our own biases, myself included, and we are all struggling to find balance and do what's right in the confusing phase of existence we find ourselves in. None of us has all the answers and should remember to be humble and kind to our other-selves as we discuss this issue. However, I think we owe it to ourselves to use our own discernment when evaluating channeled information, even when the source is well known and with established purity. Discernment.

Love to all

Is this not why as questioner puts it the 'Universal disclaimer' is so important?

Are we not all at different places and different stages of learning?
This quote did resonate with me.
I’ve was veggie for 10 years +, not for your typical reasons but because I didn’t like turning animals into poo.
At the same time I was puzzled as to why people found it so repulsive to eat Human but not animal..... I often found my self curious as to how human would compare to other meat.
I also agree with what they say about plants, when I see my children pulling leaves of plants... I stop and question them about how they would feel if someone came along and pulled there hair out.
I understand our perception of fear and pain is different........ but I find of Quo's quotes here all of them resonate with me.
When I dig up a plant on my allotment I find myself so grateful and a little sad at what I am doing. You lovingly raise a plant from seed watering and nurturing it – then you yank it out the ground and eat it.
As a veggie I would still prepare caught game for my family out of respect for the animal and wanting to be completely aware of what meat is.
Are not all of the options they offer showing respect and love to the animal in an individual way?
I don’t have the answers, I’m just throwing out a view.