Why I am not a vegan

[Minyatur]

Well this is probably my last post to you so I'll let something from the positive polarity speak words of wisdom on the nature of love in my stead.

Love, my friends, is not what you think it is. The word in your language has a meaning that has various interpretations. But it is none of these things. We use the word when we speak to you, because it is as close as we can come to the concept, using your language. Love, my friends, is that force which does all of the things that are done in the entire creation. All of the things, my friends, even those that you would interpret as being without love.

[Jade]

Whenever I make a post, I am fully aware of the fact that I am talking to myself. We are in a reality full of mirrors. Whenever we make a post pointing fingers or calling someone this or that, I think we need to be acutely aware that we are pointing a finger at a reflection of ourselves. The things that stand out to us as "issues" that we are dealing with outside of us are actually the issues inside of us that we are most struggling to deal with.

For instance, people like to use the whole forum as a mirror to project upon. Whenever someone says "This forum is x!" for instance, this forum is unaccepting of others, this tells me that the person who is making that proclamation is not happy with the level of acceptance that they themselves are able to offer to others. Or, a common one, "This forum doesn't have deep enough study!" - that problem, like most projections of this sort, lies within the perceived failings of the self.

Monica, I am addressing you directly because your last post up there had some mean accusations. That the people here are unspiritual and of lower consciousness, that the collective understanding of the Law of One is wrong, that people here who may consider themselves Wanderers or lightworkers are misleading themselves. I know you're saying this out of pain, but usually when we lash out from pain, again, the pain is from within. I'm not saying to turn the finger around and point it directly back at yourself and call yourself unaccepting, but to realize that these may be fears in the very least about the state of your being. I don't know either way. I just know how to take hints, and again, when one blankets the whole forum as a mirror for projection it is often a hint.

For you, Monica, it's not you or your words that people have a problem with, it's your delivery. I hope I can say that without offending you. It's a yellow/blue ray balance and I think it's a HUGE deal right now in our society - having to sacrifice our baser forms of expression for the greater peace of all. People scorn "social justice warriors" because they want discourse, on the whole, to be softer, and without negativity. Others are attached to these parts of their identity - their conviction, their passion, their humor is expressed through these means. But when others are consistently giving you the same feedback - that your self expression has a negative effect upon them - to me, that is a cue to take that feedback and utilize it. You can take the cue and use it for separation - "This is just who I am and woe be to anyone who is uncomfortable!" - or you can use it for unity, and ask yourself, "How can I use this feedback to integrate myself more into the All?" Of course, I'm not proclaiming that giving up your identity for the sake of others is what you should always do, it is an infinite and eternal balance. But, you cannot ignore the feedback of others - you must process it somehow, or it will just get louder and louder until you can't hear much of anything else.

And for everyone, some of my best advice for forum interaction is, when you are re-reading a post before submitting, to read that post as if it were someone else talking to you. Really, truly, get into that perspective and see how the post you are about to send makes you feel. Process that, and decide if that's really the energy you most desire to send out and be received. At least, that's what I try to do, and I find it very valuable.

[Aion]

To conclude the sentiments of this thread in a nutshell:



Lets take those hands and put 'em together.

[Monica]

Whenever I make a post, I am fully aware of the fact that I am talking to myself. We are in a reality full of mirrors. Whenever we make a post pointing fingers or calling someone this or that, I think we need to be acutely aware that we are pointing a finger at a reflection of ourselves. The things that stand out to us as "issues" that we are dealing with outside of us are actually the issues inside of us that we are most struggling to deal with.

For instance, people like to use the whole forum as a mirror to project upon. Whenever someone says "This forum is x!" for instance, this forum is unaccepting of others, this tells me that the person who is making that proclamation is not happy with the level of acceptance that they themselves are able to offer to others. Or, a common one, "This forum doesn't have deep enough study!" - that problem, like most projections of this sort, lies within the perceived failings of the self.

Monica, I am addressing you directly because your last post up there had some mean accusations. That the people here are unspiritual and of lower consciousness, that the collective understanding of the Law of One is wrong, that people here who may consider themselves Wanderers or lightworkers are misleading themselves. I know you're saying this out of pain, but usually when we lash out from pain, again, the pain is from within. I'm not saying to turn the finger around and point it directly back at yourself and call yourself unaccepting, but to realize that these may be fears in the very least about the state of your being. I don't know either way. I just know how to take hints, and again, when one blankets the whole forum as a mirror for projection it is often a hint.

For you, Monica, it's not you or your words that people have a problem with, it's your delivery. I hope I can say that without offending you. It's a yellow/blue ray balance and I think it's a HUGE deal right now in our society - having to sacrifice our baser forms of expression for the greater peace of all. People scorn "social justice warriors" because they want discourse, on the whole, to be softer, and without negativity. Others are attached to these parts of their identity - their conviction, their passion, their humor is expressed through these means. But when others are consistently giving you the same feedback - that your self expression has a negative effect upon them - to me, that is a cue to take that feedback and utilize it. You can take the cue and use it for separation - "This is just who I am and woe be to anyone who is uncomfortable!" - or you can use it for unity, and ask yourself, "How can I use this feedback to integrate myself more into the All?" Of course, I'm not proclaiming that giving up your identity for the sake of others is what you should always do, it is an infinite and eternal balance. But, you cannot ignore the feedback of others - you must process it somehow, or it will just get louder and louder until you can't hear much of anything else.

And for everyone, some of my best advice for forum interaction is, when you are re-reading a post before submitting, to read that post as if it were someone else talking to you. Really, truly, get into that perspective and see how the post you are about to send makes you feel. Process that, and decide if that's really the energy you most desire to send out and be received. At least, that's what I try to do, and I find it very valuable.

Have the mods changed their protocol? When I was a mod, we didn't chastise members publicly. We handled moderator issues privately.

You don't seem to be acting in the capacity of moderator, so I'm wondering why you are violating forum guidelines and moderator protocol.

I realize now what is meant by my 'delivery'. It isn't rude or insulting. You all know that. I think what is bothering you about my 'delivery' is that I address comments point-by-point.

I have been courteous and have never insulted anyone. The worst offense I will admit to is a bit of sarcasm, along with a few instances of frustrated venting. Those pale in comparison to the onslaught of direct insults directed at Diana and me over the years.

Everyone knows that there aren't any good arguments in favor of meat-eating, at least Not in a modern society. When I state my views point-by-point, and respond to others' comments point-by-point, the meat-eaters simply don't have much they can offer to counter my points. I don't get the credit for that. It's just that the vegan always wins on all counts, whether it's in regards to health, ethics, or the environment. That's because veganism addresses some very big problems, with clear solutions, in regards to health, ending unnecessary cruelty, and reducing wanton destruction of the environment. There's simply NO good argument in favor of supporting the meat-dairy industry! That's just the way it is.

When meat-eaters are confronted with irrefutable facts about the cruelty to animals and the destruction of the environment, and realize that they can't refute those points, they wire it up in their minds that I have 'bullied' them. I have done nothing of the sort. I have simply stated my points.

I suspect that what they really mean is that they feel intimidated by someone who successfully refutes their attempts to justify cruelty.

That isn't my fault. Neither is it Diana's. We are entitled to our views. We aren't responsible for someone feeling intimidated by us, just for being who we are.

This concludes my response to you. I do NOT consent to additional discussion about me personally. That is a violation of the guidelines and I shouldn't have to explain that to a moderator. I have pm'ed the other mods about your inappropriate handling of an apparent grievance with me.

Plenum: Since you 'liked' Jade's public attempt to chastise me, I can only wonder how much things have changed, in regards to how the mods operate now. If you are now publicly chastising members, then that reinforces my decision to leave.

...

[isis]

That is a violation of the guidelines and I shouldn't have to explain that to a moderator. I have pm'ed the other mods about your inappropriate handling of an apparent grievance with me.

Plenum: Since you 'liked' Jade's public attempt to chastise me, I can only wonder how much things have changed, in regards to how the mods operate now. If you are now publicly chastising members, then that reinforces my decision to leave.

...

According to the Directory of Bring4th Staff, the only moderators are Austin & Plenum.

http://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthread.php?tid=11937

[airwaves]

A good moderator would have deleted an obvious troll thread(seriously look at the first post and tell me with a serious face that it's not a troll post intended to bait emotional replies from zealous vegans) instead of drawing it out for for over a year with arguments that are essentially copy/pasted from other threads that discuss literally the exact same topic with the exact same people. Who was the mod when this thread was posted? The answer will blow your mind. Jk it won't.

This whole thread is ridiculous. Funny, sad, disconcerting, but mostly ridiculous.



Edit: And don't get me wrong. I love Monica, and I intend to be a vegan when my experience allows for me to make the change. I greatly look forward to once again nurturing my own garden and having it nurture me in return, putting my jarring and canning skills to use once again. However, I will not be judged for my current circumstances and made to feel like I'm somehow a bad person as if it is I who is singlehandedly enslaving the poor critters. I don't think other omnivores here appreciate having the finger pointed at them either. We do what we can and try not to get too worked up about that' which is outside our sphere of influence. Worrying about an other selves diet is outside my sphere of influence. Idgaf what you eat and I expect the same respect.

[anagogy]

Can I just say, without mentioning anyone specifically (so as not to somehow qualify as an imagined attack) that it is unfortunate, in today's day in age, that we simply cannot converse with each other, without crying foul and asking for some kind of higher authority intervention to swoop in and solve our disagreements for us?  It just seems so ridiculous and lazy to me.  A wonderful way to avoid useful catalyst.  I feel like a lot of people that have participated in this thread are stuck in a victim mentality.  I'm sure I've been guilty of it too, at times.  I think it is a road that runs both ways.  But I have to be honest when I say that I absolutely hate feeling like I have to be so politically correct that I am walking on eggshells in any given conversation.  

I think if somebody is not happy with a forum or thread, they should probably simply not post there.  What I have seen lately, is a lot of melodramatic BS.  This is just my personal opinion.  It serves no purpose whatsoever, except to maintain this "victim mentality".  I really enjoy posting on this forum, and debating with the intelligent community it encompasses.

It saddens me that some members (who shall not be named), feel this place is so unspiritual and that they feel they must depart in a fiery display of martyrdom.

I think having a sincere desire to assist the animal kingdom is a wonderful thing.  I think veganism is a fine path of service, if that is what one feels called to do.  I just have no problem if someone does not feel called to that particular form of service.  Just as I have no problem with larvae and caterpillars, even though they are clearly and obviously, not butterflies.  I don't see any particular state of evolution as being worthy of eradication, simply because it is not as evolved as some other state of evolution.  One can argue, because a higher state of evolution exists, that the lower state of evolution is unnecessary, but I've just never been able to see it that way.   

It just never made sense to me.  

I think that all experiences are valuable, and that one cannot judge the polarity of an act, by its outward appearance (though I freely admit you can often get a pretty darn good guess).  And this is where the "personal part" of service comes in.  Everybody is being called to different types of service on an inner level.  If one feels spiritually called to veganism because they feel it is more in alignment with oneness, I say more power to them.  At the same time if someone does not feel called to that service, then I trust, and I have faith, that they are finding service in other ways (assuming they are oriented towards STO).  

I have omnivore friends, and I have vegan friends.  They are all wonderful people, who serve in wonderfully different ways.  I don't see their service as inferior or superior to one anothers.  They all have their flaws, and their redeeming qualities.  None of them is a 100% STO.  That is simply not a realistic characteristic of 3rd density.

I've met some really cool vegans too.  I really respect that they don't feel the need to remind me every time I see them that meat comes from animals.  They respect that I already know that.  Of course I've met some that think I forgot after the first hundred reminders.  These are people that try to use guilt as a weapon (as an aside, an adept manipulator can convince someone to feel guilty for just about anything from spending extra money to simply eating a bagel).  Fortunately, I don't succumb to that kind of emotional manipulation easily.  This doesn't make me a sociopath who doesn't care or feels no compassion for animals, but rather a human being who is attempting to be of service in my own ways, with some possibilities for service I wasn't ready to do yet.  

Everybody is evolving, some more slowly, and some more quickly, and in a variety of ways that you simply can't compare to one another.  Something I realized a long time ago is that you don't have to force evolution along.  All states of evolution are perfect, and when further evolution occurs it will be perfect too.  Another thing I realized: those older and less developed states of evolution will always continue to be explored by some aspect of the creator because it a valuable part of the one infinite creator knowing itself.  None of us know with absolute clarity the trials of another, and it is not our place to judge their actions even if their actions *seem* STS to us (because while you might be right that an observed action is STS, you can't actually know that).

And those beings that are ready to step out of a given state of evolution will be assisted by the universe in strange and wonderful ways.  Events will be energized to action.  People will be energized to action.  The "angels of the universe" come in a variety of forms.  Some of them will be vegans, no doubt, and their lifestyle will be the very cooperative component that the universe summoned for a particular calling or result to be realized.  Some of them will be omnivores.  Some will not be ready to step into the next state of evolution, and in such a case, their experience of that particular state of evolution, will proceed forth as it is, perfectly, even if by our limited 3rd density understanding, it looks like a terrible and violent experience.

Basically, in summary, everybody is serving in different ways, and the creator has not turned a blind eye to creation even if it sometimes seems that way.  We are all being called to service in our own personal ways, and no service is better or worse than another.  A person may take part of the flesh of animals, but volunteer at a homeless shelter or give lots of money to charities.  A vegan might save many animal lives, but be a complete uncompassionate and judgmental jerk in other areas of life.  Or some other combination.  No creation is perfectly identical, and we are all finding balance in different ways.  

Nobody is perfect and nobody is getting it all wrong either.      

[Jeremy]

It all boils down to ego or the inability of letting go of one's ego

[Jeremy]

But I will say that despite all of the drama, I truly believe this has been a fruitful encounter for all involved. Whether it's interpeted as positive or negative, this has produced quite the number of productive catalysts for those willing to consciously identify with them and attempt to integrate them within their learning experience.

[norral]

i believe we were put here to learn tolerance. of each other and our beliefs. the more accepting we can be the happier we are from what i see. i dont really care what a person eats that is their business. i am more interested in what a person is saying and im not talking about words. the internet is an absolutely unnatural place to communicate. there is no flow so misunderstandings abound. i do believe if everyone was to talk about this face to face there would be a better understanding and a lot shorter conversation because we would all just accept each others views and move on. so maybe the point of the whole thing is for all of us to learn to be more tolerant in all aspects of our lives. that is what im getting from this and im just reading this for the first time today . peace to all

[Ankh]

But  I will say that despite all of the drama,  I truly believe this has been a fruitful encounter for all involved. Whether it's interpeted as positive or negative,  this has produced quite the number of productive catalysts for those willing to consciously identify with them and attempt to integrate them within their learning experience.

I just wanted to underline your word *conscously*. It can be indeed a fruitful encounter for the individuals involved, if these individuals take responsibility for their own catalysts and learn from them. But if not, this drama will be repeating itself over and over, for countless of years, catalysts just piling up, not doing their intended work:



Will She swing this way or that way?

Not saying that there is anything wrong with learning slower/faster. Each will learn in its own pace. But maybe we can remember that when interacting with mirrors which do not reflect the best light in ourselves. That whatever "darkness" we perceive from others, this darkness is a) showing us our selves and our own shadows, and b) others are just as ourselves, trying to learn how to climb up (and they fall too, just as we do).

[Ankh]

P.S. Monica, besides our differences in the past, I would be saddened to see you go. Maybe you could just take a break from the forum, like I did in the past? To find your peace, to find your balance, and to find your strength once again? And then perhaps come back, if you would feel for it? You don't have to delete your account once and for all perhaps?

Whatever you choose, may you forgive me for my past mistakes and may you walk in peace, sister.

Lots of love to you!

[Parsons]

At what point does constantly lashing out at everyone then hiding behind the forum rule of not discussing a member become conscious abuse of the rules/guidelines?

I resent having to say this generally (without specifying a member) because I hate hiding behind rules/laws/guidelines. It really seems childish and cowardly.

[Jade]

Have the mods changed their protocol? When I was a mod, we didn't chastise members publicly. We handled moderator issues privately.

You don't seem to be acting in the capacity of moderator, so I'm wondering why you are violating forum guidelines and moderator protocol.

I realize now what is meant by my 'delivery'. It isn't rude or insulting. You all know that. I think what is bothering you about my 'delivery' is that I address comments point-by-point.

I have been courteous and have never insulted anyone. The worst offense I will admit to is a bit of sarcasm, along with a few instances of frustrated venting. Those pale in comparison to the onslaught of direct insults directed at Diana and me over the years.

Everyone knows that there aren't any good arguments in favor of meat-eating, at least Not in a modern society. When I state my views point-by-point, and respond to others' comments point-by-point, the meat-eaters simply don't have much they can offer to counter my points. I don't get the credit for that. It's just that the vegan always wins on all counts, whether it's in regards to health, ethics, or the environment. That's because veganism addresses some very big problems, with clear solutions, in regards to health, ending unnecessary cruelty, and reducing wanton destruction of the environment. There's simply NO good argument in favor of supporting the meat-dairy industry! That's just the way it is.

When meat-eaters are confronted with irrefutable facts about the cruelty to animals and the destruction of the environment, and realize that they can't refute those points, they wire it up in their minds that I have 'bullied' them. I have done nothing of the sort. I have simply stated my points.

I suspect that what they really mean is that they feel intimidated by someone who successfully refutes their attempts to justify cruelty.

That isn't my fault. Neither is it Diana's. We are entitled to our views. We aren't responsible for someone feeling intimidated by us, just for being who we are.

This concludes my response to you. I do NOT consent to additional discussion about me personally. That is a violation of the guidelines and I shouldn't have to explain that to a moderator. I have pm'ed the other mods about your inappropriate handling of an apparent grievance with me.

Plenum: Since you 'liked' Jade's public attempt to chastise me, I can only wonder how much things have changed, in regards to how the mods operate now. If you are now publicly chastising members, then that reinforces my decision to leave.

...

Hi Monica, I am getting some mixed messages from you. Would you like me to respond to you further here, or continue our current private conversation in PMs?

[Monica]

P.S. Monica, besides our differences in the past, I would be saddened to see you go. Maybe you could just take a break from the forum, like I did in the past? To find your peace, to find your balance, and to find your strength once again? And then perhaps come back, if you would feel for it? You don't have to delete your account once and for all perhaps?

Whatever you choose, may you forgive me for my past mistakes and may you walk in peace, sister.

Lots of love to you!

Aw thanks Sweetie!

I have done that several times, and you are right, it is good to take a break from the forum now and then.

This time, I am leaving permanently, for different reasons.

Thank you for your kind words! All is forgiven! Please forgive me also, for my past mistakes. May you walk in peace also! Much love and blessings to you!

[Monica]

It saddens me that some members (who shall not be named), feel this place is so unspiritual and that they feel they must depart in a fiery display of martyrdom.

LOL!

He Who Must Not Be Named

...

[Monica]

Edit: And don't get me wrong. I love Monica, and I intend to be a vegan when my experience allows for me to make the change. I greatly look forward to once again nurturing my own garden and having it nurture me in return, putting my jarring and canning skills to use once again. However, I will not be judged for my current circumstances and made to feel like I'm somehow a bad person as if  it is I who is singlehandedly enslaving the poor critters. I don't think other omnivores here appreciate having the finger pointed at them either. We do what we can  and try not to get too worked up about that' which is outside our sphere of influence. Worrying about an other selves diet is outside my sphere of influence. Idgaf what you eat and I expect the same respect.

There is a huge difference between:

Thank you for showing me the harsh reality of the meat-dairy industry. I had No idea it was so horrible! I now understand that eating meat and dairy contributes to unnecessary suffering of sentient beings, and I am working to reduce my own contribution to it. I'm Not quite there yet, due to circumstances, but I am moving in that direction.

and

How dare you show me proof that cows are raped and chickens are scalded alive! How dare you remind me that pigs are smarter than dogs, and even chickens are very intelligent, and all animals feel pain and fear. It doesn't matter how much they suffer because animals are only 2D! Quit lashing out at me!  It's more important to respect my free will to harm animals, than to answer the call of animals! Because they are only 2D! How dare you judge me for eating meat! Quit trying to control me! And anyway, I like the taste of bacon!

That is the difference. #1 is based in love, unity and compassion. #2 is based in denial and defensiveness, and attacking the messenger.

I apologize to everyone for having expectations of responses like #1, and for being disappointed and frustrated to get mostly responses like #2.


This pretty much sums it up.

...

[Monica]

According to the Directory of Bring4th Staff, the only moderators are Austin & Plenum.

http://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthread.php?tid=11937

Right. But she is still staff.

...

[anagogy]

That is the difference. #1 is based in love, unity and compassion. #2 is based in denial and defensiveness, and attacking the messenger.

I apologize to everyone for having expectations of responses like #1, and for being disappointed and frustrated to get mostly responses like #2.

As was already mentioned, I don't think it was ever your message that was a problem, but rather the delivery which, by my estimation of community consensus, came across as accusatory and judgmental to most people here, regardless of your intentions.

It also seems a little unfair and too black and white to pigeonhole the infinite responses of forum members into those two simple binary categories.  There were many shades of gray in between the two responses you outlined here.

Being attached to an specific outcome is always disappointing because you elevate your expectations of other people to near superhuman saints, and then when they inevitably, and humanly don't live up to those exalted standards of spiritual success you have outlined for yourself, you get frustrated and conclude that this place is unspiritual and has no compassion for the animal kingdom.

Not all chemical bodies can run on the same fuel.  Across the species barrier this is obvious, but there is a reason there are a thousand different human diets.  It is not our place to judge the diet of another being, even if it doesn't seem to our perception to be as consonant with oneness as another's diet.  Some people don't run well on gluten and soy.  Some other people don't run well on an all plant diet.  This is just my opinion, which is based on personal experience.  Everybody will have a different perspective of course, but this is my personal truth.    

I would only suggest that there are a lot of realizations people need to arrive at on their own, and trying to force the issue often simply results in resistance to the very realizations one is trying to share.  

[Shemaya]

Getting back to the topic, why I am not a vegan.

I think our language and how we use words causes a lot of catalysts.

From now on, I am going to say I eat a plant-based diet. It's true, it's not divisive and it is progressive, moving toward higher consciousness.

I would think most people and almost all the people that post here would agree to that terminology and way of life. What do you think?

[anagogy]

I guess I fail to see how one word is better than another word for the same thing.  If we are changing the description because people have a negative association to the word "vegan" (like as in, it is "divisive" for some reason), we might want to explore why that is, and who is to say it won't happen with "plant based diet".  

So I guess I don't understand the benefit. Perhaps you can explain it to me?

[Shemaya]

I don't know if vegan is divisive.  But I guess it is because the definition is based on excluding, so rather than inclusion which is unifying, it excludes, which causes separation.  I am just talking about the word itself, not necessarily the philosophy or ideals, or ideology.

Plant based diet can include people who eat anything.  It describes a way of living that is mostly based on plants, but leaves room to include anyone who eats yogurt for instance, or fish.   Or even meat.

The word vegan is triggering and emotionally activating which is not necessarily bad, because that can be catalyst for change.  However, it is unrealistic to expect all "spiritual "people and communities to become vegan ( not that anyone expects that).

Part of it is an identification thing.  Identifying as vegan , or omnivore will guide choices.  Saying I eat a plant based diet describes more what I do instead of identifying as a specific group.  And being something I do, rather than what I am.....it flows more, has less boundary and is not as limiting.

[outerheaven]

Sure, I like it, Shemaya!

Part of it is an identification thing. Identifying as vegan , or omnivore will guide choices. Saying I eat a plant based diet describes more what I do instead of identifying as a specific group. And being something I do, rather than what I am.....it flows more, has less boundary and is not as limiting.

I definitely see where you're coming from. When people ask me if I'm a vegan or vegetarian I just kind of chuckle and don't know what to say. I don't like the labels at all nor the charge that comes with them. Besides, I don't limit my diet so totally, either. I might go a year without eating meat ... or a month or a day. It depends.

It's kind of like alcohol for me, too. I think alcohol is bad for me on several levels (mentally, emotionally, physically, spiritually, haha) and don't want to ingest it generally. But it's hard to avoid alcohol for a lot of the same reasons that meat can be hard to avoid. And I know that historically, if I try to swear it off entirely, I create an inner-conflict where I lose my balance and actually want it more than if I just came to understand the root of my desire and its consequences.

***

As an aside, something I've read in the multiple incarnations of this thread and didn't agree with -- I don't believe that plants don't feel pain and/or are "happy" to be eaten. Some might not mind their fruits being eaten -- I'm willing to buy that -- and thanking/communing with the living entity before harvest has been shown to ease their pain. But I don't think a plant being topped and then growing side-shoots means it wants to be eaten.

I recommend reading "The Secret Life of Plants," an excellent book released in 1974 that should've rocked the mainstream understanding of science to its core, but I digress. Anyhow, this book compiled a plethora of research showing that plants absolutely do feel pain -- and even grow an immense fondness towards their care-takers. Or, alternatively, plants can remember those who "abuse" them and can defensively go into a state of shock triggered by the abuser's mere presence. So they don't feel the pain of their leaves being ripped off before it even happens.

I don't say this to scare vegans or vegetarians into starving themselves to death, nor do I say this to justify meat-eating. I say this because I think we need to recognize that this vibratory existence we try to maintain* is a so-called "service to self," and one that requires the consumption of other life forms in order to continue.

*When I say "vibratory existence," I don't mean life in general, though I think that is a possibility. Rather I mean the frequency we all operate on, i.e. our agreed-upon culture -- beliefs, attitudes, religion, entertainment, etc. (Look around you and observe how much of the clothes I'm/you're wearing, or the electronics we're sharing for me to get this message across, was produced with exploited and impoverished labor, etc? Now we're getting somewhere.)

Basically, me and you, we're currently mired in the density of suffering for whatever reason. Until we recognize it in all forms and accept it for what it is, we ain't moving on. I think that's an important point that's sometimes lost in the "plants love to be eaten" argument.

There, now omnivores, vegetarians and vegans can unite in tearing me apart!

[earth_spirit]

-----

[Nicholas]

No it is not evangelistic thinking (at least I don't perceive it to be). More it was a logical assumption. Here we are consuming various forms of 2nd density manifestations in order to sustain our own personal manifestations. According to Ra, the concept of ingesting foodstuffs in the 5th density illusion is, "somewhat a central point".

Preceding the quote above is this...

43.20 Questioner: I’m guessing that it is not necessary to ingest food in fifth density. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is incorrect. However, the vehicle needs food which may be prepared by thought.
43.21 Questioner: What type of food would this be?
Ra: I am Ra. You would call this type of food nectar, or ambrosia, or a light broth of golden white hue.

So is it logical to assume that in 5th density, all entities are preparing food, not using their 5th density limbs (whatever that may look like), but using thought? Yes. That is if we hold any stock in the info that Ra offers us.

And beyond the 5th density, Ra describe food in the 6th aspect of the grand illusion at 43.24. "the nature of this food is that of light and is impossible to describe to you in any meaningful way as regards the thrust of your query."

So it is my logical assumption that in-between where we are now and the 6th density run of things (according to Ra that is), veganism as a practise, rather than an identity  would be collectively explored. 

The most important distinction for me lies between the concepts of "foodstuff" (which is objective), and "harvest" (which is subjective).

Okay, this is finally a new argument that I have not seen before, so I will respond.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are likening the "nectar/ambrosia/light broth" to eating a vegetable? If I'm off, ignore the following response.

All life from simple bacteria to plants to animals are 2nd density. This 'foodstuff' that Ra is describing is most definitely not 2nd density matter. So I don't agree with the assertion that we would collectively exploring veganism as a practice/identity. I would say we would collectively exploring eating this ambrosia that they attempt to approximate (which we do not have a word for in our language). So we would not be eating 2nd density life at all, which I would not define as vegan.

Sorry Parsons, but I had interpreted your post to mean "don't respond if I am wrong here". In actuality you were asking me to ignore your reasoning, not the accuracy of your interpretation to my post. I got the two mixed up 

I only came back to this thread because Monica has an 'account closed' mark by her name (okay what I mean is that I only started scrolling up because of Monica's new status). In doing so I also realised that you deserve a response.

No I am not likening Ra quotes to eating a vegetable. The trend I was referring to is that at some point in our evolution we will be making our own foodstuff, rather than have it provided for us by creation itself. 

Is that the 'central point' that Ra were eluding to? Perhaps, or perhaps not (I think so). My intention was to enlarge the debate, rather than have it confined to the 'helpless animal' narrative. 

Back to my point though, at some point in time we will surely be creating our own 'foodstuff'. Does that journey include veganism? I believe so. 

'Foodstuff' is a red ray issue in our reality and that is why, in my opinion, the comment made on the first page of this thread, that it is as personal as one's sex life, is a wise assertion to make 

[Creighton]

Hi Aaron.. I have no judgments with whatever anyone chooses to believe and do as their choice. And I believe my body will produce vit B12 whenever necessary or any other nutrients my body needs. I take no supplements, and have been a vegetarian, and vegan for years. And if I choose to change back to flesh eating I feel free to do so, not out of fear of lacking something nutritionally, but out of my choice for the enjoyment of eating it. I'm also a clinical hypnotherapist, and past-life regressionist, and tests made with thousands of people under hypnosis has proven the body will make nutrients that it needs, or believes is necessary to exist, under hypnosis. There are many documented cases of this available.  And I believe for myself, all eating is for the pleasure, & the camaraderie, of being with friends and the group participation. And privately, & personally.. for my own pleasure. I'm also looking into Breatharianism as an alternative way of being. Which is adapting the body to living on the Prana energy that is everywhere. There are currently over 20,000 practicing breatharian's in the world. I have been following Ray Maor (from Israel) and Akahi for 6 yrs. http://akahmi.com/   &     https://youtu.be/QhBpdGxmMCU

There are many available choices.. and we are each the chooser of what we believe will be our experience.  And as an Adept wanderer, I get to choose whatever is in alignment with my knowing.  From a 6th dimensional reality, we are unlimited... and Breatharianism can be a way to end hunger, and dis-eases, and many other limitations. Its something to look at, as we expand in consciousness...

                                                                                                 Namaste,  Creighton


 

Just be intelligent about it... Do research. Find out what exactly your body needs and where to get it.

http://www.methylcobalamininfo.com/vitam...-are-they/

"There are a few important differences between these different forms of B12. Firstly, you have to understand that humans cannot produce their own vitamin B12, and nor can any other plant or animal or fungus. This means we have to get all of our B12 from our diets. But where does it come from in the first place?

Only bacteria have the ability to synthesize this vitamin, so all the B12 you’ve ever ingested was originally produced by a bacterium somewhere. All animals have bacteria living in and on them (a situation referred to as ‘bacterial symbiosis’), and as a result the food we eat will often contain B12, especially animal products.

The awkward part is that the bacteria only produce hydroxocobalamin. This wouldn’t be a problem, except this type of B12 isn’t actually of any use to us in itself. Before we can reap the benefits of this essential vitamin, we have to convert the hydroxocobalamin into one of the so-called ‘active’ forms of B12 – either methylcobalamin or adenosylcobalamin, which your body is capable of switching between if necessary."

Basically, from the 10 minutes of internet searching I performed, which uncovered the quoted article, among a few others, has lead me to form an opinion which I can now share. My opinion is thus: to ensure an efficient level of B12 production and absorption in a vegetarian body, one must be consuming a moderate level of fermented foods, so that the bacteria in that food will be producing B12 before they pass into the large intestine, where B12 can no longer be absorbed.

Basically, you gotta make sure your small intestine is well cultured with beneficial, B12 producing bacteria. The easiest way to do this is by eating cultured, fermented foods such as kim-chi. Jade mentioned nutritional yeast. This is also a great source of energy-producing bacteria.

Of course, you could always supplement.
http://www.iherb.com/Source-Naturals-Met...null&ic=11
I have that in my supplement collection at the moment.

[Creighton]

And I believe in the near future we will be able to regenerate our bodies naturally without relying on another, or outer conditions. And we will be our own catalyst.. Creigh

[I am Shayne]

So Whats the matter with eating just fruit? Which is given by plants to be eaten and dispersed. No killing whatsoever of any 2D entity. And fruitarians thrive as far as i'm concerned.
Sungazing is the next step.

Yet, all of one's conscious actions depend on their self-proposed purpose.

[YinYang]

I didn't read this entire thread, but I do want to share a little something I've learned over the years from spiritual authors which I lean towards. When Joel Goldsmith had his awakening when he was healed from a Christian Scientist, he walked into the building as someone who smoked and used alcohol (not saying smoking or using alcohol is good or bad), but when he walked out after that experience, he tried to light a cigarette and found that he just couldn't smoke it, then he ordered a drink and found that he couldn't drink anymore. There was no conscious decision that I am going to refrain from this or that from now on. That is a decision of the mind, and can possibly be viewed as suppression, which Ra calls deleterious to us, and it definitely falls into the "thou shalt not" category. The change happens from the inside out, some authors describe it as becoming of a "finer" substance, others call it "god-realization", "awakening", whichever you prefer. It is an experience which transcends the mind.

I regret to announce that I am not there yet, I am still a happy meat eater, but I have come across this "refrain from this" and "refrain from that" topic from many mystical authors over the years, and they all say it just doesn't work like that. I can't remember them all now, but these two I do remember:

Thoughts Are Things

We cannot cease immediately from the enslavement or slaughter of tree, bird or animal, nor from the eating of animal food. So long as the body craves and relishes such food, it should have it. When the body is changed by our spirit and belief to finer elements, the stomach and palate will reject meat of every description. It will not abide the taste or smell of slaughtered creatures. When the spirit settles these matters it does so definitely and forever. Man’s error in the past has often been that of endeavouring to spiritualize or change himself of his own individual will into higher and finer conditions. To this end he has enforced on himself and others fasts and penances, and abstinence from pleasures which his nature craved. He has never by such methods saved himself from sickness, decay and physical death. He has never by this method regenerated or renewed his body. He has lost his body eventually even as the glutton and drunkard lost theirs.

The ascetic has not trusted in the Supreme to raise him higher in the scale of being, but in himself and his own endeavour. This is one of the greatest sins, because it cuts such a person off temporarily from the Supreme and the life, the Supreme will send when trusted. There is no way out of any sin, any excess, any injurious habit, but through an entire dependence on the Supreme Power to take away the gnawing, the craving, the desire peculiar to that habit. Otherwise the man may seem reformed outwardly. He is never reformed inwardly. Repression is not reform.

The bigot of every age and creed has been the person thinking he could of himself make himself an angel. Such belief makes the man stand still in his tracks. The Supreme is always saying, “Come to me. Demand of me. Find me in all created things and then I shall be ever sending you new thoughts, new things, new ideas, new element which shall change your tastes, your appetites–which shall gradually take away grossness, eliminate gradually fierce, insatiate, lawless desire and hurricane of passion, and bring to you pleasures you cannot now realize.

The Art of Meditation

Frequently the question of diet in relation to meditation is raised. Is there any special diet which, if followed, will enhance one's spiritual capacity? Are certain foods to be avoided by the aspirant on the spiritual path? Should one refrain from the eating of meat? At every stage of our unfoldment we are tempted to believe that something we do or think in the human realm will help us in the development of our spiritual awareness. This is a false assumption. On the contrary, it is the development of our spiritual awareness that changes our everyday habits and mode of living.

As the aspirant progresses along the spiritual path, he may find himself eating less and less meat and, ultimately, may reach the point of being unable to eat any meat at all. Let us not, however, believe that there is virtue in some act of omission or commission, that some form of material sacrifice will increase our spirituality. Spirituality is developed through the reading of spiritual literature, the hearing of spiritual wisdom, the association with those on the spiritual path, and through the practice of meditation. The kingdom of God is found by inner realization. The outer transformation in one's dietary habits is a direct result of an inner spiritual grace; it is a result of the spiritualizing process taking place in consciousness. Abstaining from the eating of meat is not a means of developing inner spiritual grace; but the development of inner spiritual grace leads to the renunciation of such things on the outer plane.

[I am Shayne]

Yin Yang, I will be reading your post over many times. It is a very thought provoking/pleasing view which I certainly agree with.


Ra: I am Ra. The proper role of the entity in this density is to experience all things desired, to then analyze, understand, and accept these experiences, distilling from them the love/light within them. Nothing shall be overcome. That which is not needed falls away