Why I am not a vegan

[Aion]

It's not that I don't make use of the idea of polarity, it's just that I don't think it has anything to do with right and wrong. Polarity is very much a fundamental part of my views, I just don't view it as good or bad.

I don't know what you think of me, I did not try to claim I do. I only responded to the point of the impressions I experienced. I couldn't have a clue if what I perceive and what you think are the same. It doesn't change that I see what I see and need to digest it in my own way. I obviously can only communicate to you what I perceive. The lack of right and wrong also applies to myself in the sense that I do not consider any response to be 'right'.

[Monica]

I actually read and re-read your posts multiple times, including that last one. You realize it is possible to refer to someone indirectly by expressing a statement over a group which that individual may be part of or feel part of? No, you did not say those things directly but you have implied that certain beliefs and acceptances are due to brainwashing and when I find I have some similar ideas then it would come across that I too am brainwashed.

I'm not responding in the sense of blame. I don't blame you for my own analysis, nor do I place responsibility for my interpretation upon you. I can simply only respond to the point of my experience and there are times you make blanket statements that appear to cover me even if you do not intend. I do not expect my responses to always make sense as they often come from a place that is working on very deep concepts so by the time they make their way out in to words they kind of stick together and get jumbled because there are subtle ideas I see which are very hard to put in to words.

OK thank you for the explanation. And thank you for Not blaming, being that I cannot be responsible for someone feeling offended when I generically express my views about something I personally feel is wrong.

I do wish to clarify the point about brainwashing: I did use that term, but Not in the way you seem to think I did. I was referring to religious brainwashing, when referring to 'average' people.

I don't think meat-eating is a result of brainwashing. Rather, it's a residual habit, left over from our 2D existence. I do think everyone is subject to societal conditioning, to some degree or another. Speciesism is part of societal conditioning. But Not quite the same as brainwashing, though brainwashing certainly does contribute to societal conditioning.

Even without media bias, fluoride in the water, medications, medical and government propaganda, etc. all humans have to deal with societal conditioning. One can respond according to old neuropathways formed by societal conditioning, without necessarily having been brainwashed.

Brainwashed is a much stronger state than merely being part of the collective, which is what societal conditioning is.

A subtle but important distinction.

...

[Minyatur]

The elephant in the room is that many people apparently just don't care if they inflict suffering on others.

I thought the big elephant in the room is that many people apparently don't think suffering can be a valuable experience to the Creator and deny it's place in the learning process of this Octave as the Creator of Himself.

The mechanisms of which souls move toward the experience they resonate with and incarnate where they incarnate of their own free will also seems to not matter much. I guess if it hurts you, then it can't be right nor have meaning nor be desired.

[Diana]

The elephant in the room is that many people apparently just don't care if they inflict suffering on others.

I thought the big elephant in the room is that many people apparently don't think suffering can be a valuable experience to the Creator and deny it's place in the learning process of this Octave as the Creator of Himself.

No one here has said that there is no value in suffering.

But the issue is not whether there is value in suffering and I think we would all agree that there is, rather, it is whether or not we want to be the cause of others suffering. This is the central issue.

[Monica]

I thought the big elephant in the room is that many people apparently don't think suffering can be a valuable experience to the Creator and deny it's place in the learning process of this Octave as the Creator of Himself.

The mechanisms of which souls move toward the experience they resonate with and incarnate where they incarnate of their own free will also seems to not matter much. I guess if it hurts you, then it can't be right nor have meaning nor be desired.

Let's see...How many times have I responded to that same point, clarifying yet again that I agree with you that suffering can be a powerful catalyst, and that the entity chooses it on some level? But that the issue is whether it is the task of the STO entity to provide that catalyst? or is that the task of the STS entity? and that the entity getting value from the experience doesn't justify us actually causing the suffering? How many times have I asked if your logic would work with a human?

How many times?

Are you intentionally ignoring my words, in favor of misrepresenting me? Because surely you cannot still be misunderstanding me.

...

[Monica]

No one here has said that there is no value in suffering.

But the issue is not whether there is value in suffering and I think we would all agree that there is, rather, it is whether or not we want to be the cause of others suffering. This is the central issue.

Diana, you and I have both pointed out that exact same thing - exactly what you just said - numerous times. Yet they keep ignoring it, and keep insisting that we're saying there is No value in the catalyst of suffering.

They cannot still be misunderstanding. I'm beginning to wonder if maybe they just have too much time on their hands.

...

[Minyatur]

There is One, One does all and One receives all.

I see no distinction between myself or a sto polarized or a sts polarized entity, all is part of a perfect system that complements itself fully and that inter-creates itself own of it's own free will. Whatever role I am playing, I also am playing every different role and I do believe each to be equally right as each is the beingness of self being expressed. There is no mistake, nor opressors nor victims , there is the desires of One and that to be among Itself to know Itself. Each has an equal role in protraying a facet of what we all are.

In my view you express your innate repulsion of this subject, you could've been born otherwise and did not actually seek it, it simply was as a result of your previous experiences. Well as a result of my previous experience, I feel and think otherwise than you do.

[Monica]

There is One, One does all and One receives all.

I see no distinction between myself or a sto polarized or a sts polarized entity, all is part of a perfect system that complements itself fully and that inter-creates itself own of it's own free will. Whatever role I am playing, I also am playing every different role and I do believe each to be equally right as each is the beingness of self being expressed. There is no mistake, nor opressors nor victims , there is the desires of One and that to be among Itself to know Itself. Each has an equal role in protraying a facet of what we all are.

In my view you express your innate repulsion of this subject, you could've been born otherwise and did not actually seek it, it simply was as a result of your previous experiences. Well as a result of my previous experience, I feel and think otherwise than you do.

Yes, you have made your views abundantly clear, as have we. But please quit misrepresenting our views.

...

[Minyatur]

I thought the big elephant in the room is that many people apparently don't think suffering can be a valuable experience to the Creator and deny it's place in the learning process of this Octave as the Creator of Himself.

The mechanisms of which souls move toward the experience they resonate with and incarnate where they incarnate of their own free will also seems to not matter much. I guess if it hurts you, then it can't be right nor have meaning nor be desired.

Let's see...How many times have I responded to that same point, clarifying yet again that I agree with you that suffering can be a powerful catalyst, and that the entity chooses it on some level? But that the issue is whether it is the task of the STO entity to provide that catalyst? or is that the task of the STS entity? and that the entity getting value from the experience doesn't justify us actually causing the suffering? How many times have I asked if your logic would work with a human?

How many times?

Are you intentionally ignoring my words, in favor of misrepresenting me? Because surely you cannot still be misunderstanding me.

...

My logic does apply to humans also, it applies to the Creator which is everything. Humans are not just humans just as animals are not just animals, they are infinity.

Ultimately we all are the OIC, you created this suffering that surrounds you for the sake of of experiencing being among it. You created other-selves that would be unlike you to not understand them, to feel repulsed by their acts and the darkness of their heart, just as what it creates. There is no polarity ultimately, because even the mightiest STO entity will have created every darkness that made it's light shine brighter, just as the most self centered STS entity will be nothing more than an offering of itself to the All that we are. I do not see STO entities are not being fully STS in themselves, just as I do not see STS entities as not being fully STO in themselves. Both are selfishly acting upon their own desires to give the experience of themselves to other-selves.

Your words do resonate love, but they also put much emphasis upon separation. You see a distinction between oppressor and oppressed when both are one, you see the acts of others as being in need of justification when they truly are but an extension of your own acts. I don't expect you to feel within your heart what I am trying to convey, but even based on the Ra material I doubt you see all that I say as wrong and false. Ra has conveyed the truth toward which all evolve through infinite paths, but also shared the song of their heart which is the result of their experiences. It is one of sadness toward the sufferings that are occurring, perhaps one of sadness at knowing that this sadness will be transcended. In the Ra material I see a great duality between what is known and what is felt, but it also portrays that what is felt is unique to each individual and that STO can only emerge from how it is known to the inner self. My experience has led me to know that there is love in sorrow, that it is a beautiful experience that will be loved by those who have experienced it when it has been fully distilled. That is the truth that is known to my inner self based upon my path of experiences. This inner truth that I have found and distilled through my own fate is something I know to be true for all because I know the result of my struggle to be the same result I will arrive at through others, just as one day I believe you will find your own despair that you currently have as beautiful and passionate but will never cease to change from how you currently are. There is one direction to go, one endpoint for all to reach and that is to completely let go of this reality and to let it happen as it will, that being fully loving it unconditionally.

I am not sure if I truly misunderstand you, perhaps I am only focusing on the aspects I deem of interest to discuss further. I think nothing ill of you nor do I believe you are wrong in the expression of yourself, I simply am sharing what your words make me want to share.

[Monica]

My logic does apply to humans also, it applies to the Creator which is everything. Humans are not just humans just as animals are not just animals, they are infinity.

Ultimately we all are the OIC, you created this suffering that surrounds you for the sake of of experiencing being among it. You created other-selves that would be unlike you to not understand them, to feel repulsed by their acts and the darkness of their heart, just as what it creates. There is no polarity ultimately, because even the mightiest STO entity will have created every darkness that made it's light shine brighter, just as the most self centered STS entity will be nothing more than an offering of itself to the All that we are. I do not see STO entities are not being fully STS in themselves, just as I do not see STS entities as not being fully STO in themselves. Both are selfishly acting upon their own desires to give the experience of themselves to other-selves.

Your words do resonate love, but they also put much emphasis upon separation. You see a distinction between oppressor and oppressed when both are one, you see the acts of others as being in need of justification when they truly are but an extension of your own acts. I don't expect you to feel within your heart what I am trying to convey, but even based on the Ra material I doubt you see all that I say as wrong and false. Ra has conveyed the truth toward which all evolve through infinite paths, but also shared the song of their heart which is the result of their experiences. It is one of sadness toward the sufferings that are occurring, perhaps one of sadness at knowing that this sadness will be transcended. In the Ra material I see a great duality between what is known and what is felt, but it also portrays that what is felt is unique to each individual and that STO can only emerge from how it is known to the inner self. My experience has led me to know that there is love in sorrow, that it is a beautiful experience that will be loved by those who have experienced it when it has been fully distilled. That is the truth that is known to my inner self based upon my path of experiences. This inner truth that I have found and distilled through my own fate is something I know to be true for all because I know the result of my struggle to be the same result I will arrive at through others, just as one day I believe you will find your own despair that you currently have as beautiful and passionate but will never cease to change from how you currently are. There is one direction to go, one endpoint for all to reach and that is to completely let go of this reality and to let it happen as it will, that being fully loving it unconditionally.

I am not sure if I truly misunderstand you, perhaps I am only focusing on the aspects I deem of interest to discuss further. I think nothing ill of you nor do I believe you are wrong in the expression of yourself, I simply am sharing what your words make me want to share.

Thank you for sharing. We have drastically different interpretations of the Material. (? or the same...in your view?) We're at an impasse so I will leave it at that.

...

[anagogy]

People create unwanted circumstances all the time.  Animals do it too, but people have a hard time accepting that.  They are evolving beings too.  We choose our experiences but we don't choose theirs because we don't offer vibration for them.  

Their soul minds know precisely the conditions of their incarnation (albeit in a group consciousness format)..

I don't disagree with that. But again, it's irrelevant in regards to attempts at justifying harming them. Whether they chose it on some level or not is completely irrelevant, just as whether the rape victim's subconscious reasons for attracting rape don't provide justification for an STO-oriented entity to rape her.

What I see is a misattribution of blame here.  Most people's intent is not to rape and kill animals (though some are).  Their intent is to eat food that will strengthen and nourish their bodies and the bodies of their families, and whoever they share it with (I personally don't agree with the idea that everybody can happily thrive on a vegan diet -- bodies are unique and run different fuel at different levels of efficiency).  Perhaps in the realm of causation there was a certain amount of suffering involved in the actualization of that intent.  And perhaps not.  No one can really know that.  It's an assumption, like many things in life.  The average person who goes to the store to buy protein is not directly involved in some perceived negativity involving the animal.  You would say they are contributing to the suffering of animals, and supporting the factory farming industry (and I know Diana thinks this is a "no brainer" question), or in other words, indirectly involved.

Everybody knows there is big room for improvement in factory farm conditions.  Just as there is room for improvement in third world countries.

But did you know that some of the poorest countries in the world are the happiest, despite not having modern conveniences, and living by what many westerners would consider to be deplorable conditions?  Why is that do you think?  Why would they be content with less?  If you were to pluck one of us out of our world and plop them into theirs we would probably hate it, yet here they are, happy as clams.  Perhaps it is because they are content with less, because they haven't yet asked the universe for more.  

Let's engage in a thought experiment: If animals used for consumption were raised in pristine conditions, and experienced no suffering or pain, not even when they were slaughtered, would you still have a problem with them being consumed for food?  And if so, why?  Is an instant death after a good life worse than getting sick or disabled by old age and eventually slowly dying?  Is the issue suffering, or eating meat?  Do you realize that if you got rid of the livestock farms you despise so much that you would simply be killing the animals in a different way, as in, they simply would never exist in the first place, because they wouldn't be bred?  Their lives might not seem worth living to you, but would you deprive their 2nd density souls the opportunity for incarnation experience?  

Also, if meat eating is so wrong, how do you reconcile the plethora of spiritual teachers in our world that eat meat?  Do you just assume they are all frauds?

Eckhart Tolle eats meat, Louise Hay eats meat, Esther Hicks eats meat, Darryl Anka eats meat, Adyashanti eats meat, the Dalai Lama doesn't eat meat, but if he's traveling apparently he will.  Hell, even Carla ate meat.  And these are just the ones I can name doing very little research.  There are probably a lot more.  How can people with such seemingly spiritual insight and orientation be completely blind to this if it is the anathema to compassion from your perspective?

Again, I'm not saying there is not room for improvement in how livestock are treated (but then, don't fall into the conceptual trap of assuming all livestock are treated badly -- that would be ignorant.  I've known lots of farmers that treat their livestock extremely well).  Do you recall when Ra said you cannot judge the polarity of an act?  There is no act that cannot be compassionate.  Even using animals for food.  I think people erroneously anthropomorphize animals, and then proceed to assume how a human would feel under a given set of conditions.  The 2nd density animal kingdom has similarities to 3rd density, but are VERY different, and to assume that most people simply don't care whether they cause suffering because they eat animal protein is presumptuous in the extreme.

[Monica]

What I see is a misattribution of blame here.  Most people's intent is not to rape and kill animals (though some are).  Their intent is to eat food that will strengthen and nourish their bodies and the bodies of their families,

As we've stated previously, their intentions are different, but from the animals' perspective, it is exactly the same as a human rape/murder victim.

We speak from that perspective, because that is the one usually left out.

I personally don't agree with the idea that everybody can happily thrive on a vegan diet -- bodies are unique and run different fuel at different levels of efficiency

Scientific research shows that the human body doesn't need meat, or even dairy. Biologically, there is absolutely No need for it, at all, though some people obviously think they need it.

Perhaps in the realm of causation there was a certain amount of suffering involved in the actualization of that intent.  And perhaps not.  No one can really know that.  It's an assumption, like many things in life.

No assumption at all, but fact. It is a fact that the animal had to die in order to produce the meat. If we were talking about humans, no one would suggest that killing is ok as long as it was done 'without suffering.'

But did you know that some of the poorest countries in the world are the happiest, despite not having modern conveniences, and living by what many westerners would consider to be deplorable conditions?  Why is that do you think?  Why would they be content with less?  If you were to pluck one of us out of our world and plop them into theirs we would probably hate it, yet here they are, happy as clams.  Perhaps it is because they are content with less, because they haven't yet asked the universe for more.

Yes. Relevance?  

Let's engage in a thought experiment: If animals used for consumption were raised in pristine conditions, and experienced no suffering or pain, not even when they were slaughtered, would you still have a problem with them being consumed for food?  And if so, why?

Yes, because killing them is still a violation of their free will, and it's completely unnecessary.

Our ancestors had to hunt in order to survive. We don't. Therefore, it's unnecessarily ending the life of a sentient being.

Is an instant death after a good life worse than getting sick or disabled by old age and eventually slowly dying?

That is how it happens in the wild, where predators offer swift death to the old and injured. But farm animals are raised specifically for meat and dairy. It's a completely artificial construct.

Is the issue suffering, or eating meat?

Both

Do you realize that if you got rid of the livestock farms you despise so much that you would simply be killing the animals in a different way, as in, they simply would never exist in the first place, because they wouldn't be bred?  Their lives might not seem worth living to you, but would you deprive their 2nd density souls the opportunity for incarnation experience?

Breeding animals for the express purpose of killing them is an abomination. Raising them in miserable conditions, where they are literally tortured every day, is even more of an abomination.

Arguing that we are depriving those souls that experience doesn't hold up. That's like arguing against contraception because...just think of all the human babies who didn't get a chance to be born.

Also, if meat eating is so wrong, how do you reconcile the plethora of spiritual teachers in our world that eat meat?  Do you just assume they are all frauds?

Eckhart Tolle eats meat, Louise Hay eats meat, Esther Hicks eats meat, Darryl Anka eats meat, Adyashanti eats meat, the Dalai Lama doesn't eat meat, but if he's traveling apparently he will.  Hell, even Carla ate meat.  And these are just the ones I can name doing very little research.  There are probably a lot more.  How can people with such seemingly spiritual insight and orientation be completely blind to this if it is the anathema to compassion from your perspective?

The same reason all the other meat-eaters here at B4 do it: Societal conditioning, speciesism, denial, and self-interest. Many otherwise good and spiritual people thought human slavery was ok, because it was socially acceptable. It is the same with meat-eating today. Those spiritual people might be very evolved in many ways and may have offered wonderful contributions, but they still had the same blind spot. I don't put any human guru on a pedestal.

There are many other great spiritual teachers throughout history that saw the truth of meat-eating.

don't fall into the conceptual trap of assuming all livestock are treated badly

You don't think killing someone is 'treating them badly'?

I think people erroneously anthropomorphize animals, and then proceed to assume how a human would feel under a given set of conditions.  The 2nd density animal kingdom has similarities to 3rd density, but are VERY different, and to assume that most people simply don't care whether they cause suffering because they eat animal protein is presumptuous in the extreme.

Animals feel pain and fear just like humans. Animals are much more like humans than they are like carrots. That is simple observation.

You say 'VERY different' ...please tell us how animals are different from humans.

to assume that most people simply don't care whether they cause suffering because they eat animal protein is presumptuous in the extreme.

No, most people are just ignorant. But that is rapidly changing. Once people are aware, and they still insist on satisfying their taste at the expense of sentient beings, then I can only assume at that point that they don't care.

...

[Minyatur]

Unity

To put this into perspective we must gaze then at the stunning mystery of the One Infinite Creator. The archetypical mind does not resolve any paradox or bring all into unity. This is not the property of any resource which is of the third density. Therefore, may we ask the student to look up from inward working and behold the glory, the might, the majesty, the mystery, and the peace of oneness. Let no consideration of bird or beast, darkness or light, shape or shadow keep any which seeks from the central consideration of unity.

That which is infinite cannot be many, for many-ness is a finite concept. To have infinity you must identify or define that infinity as unity; otherwise, the term does not have any referent or meaning. In an Infinite Creator there is only unity. You have seen simple examples of unity. You have seen the prism which shows all colors stemming from the sunlight. This is a simplistic example of unity.

In truth there is no right or wrong. There is no polarity for all will be, as you would say, reconciled at some point in your dance through the mind/body/spirit complex which you amuse yourself by distorting in various ways at this time. This distortion is not in any case necessary. It is chosen by each of you as an alternative to understanding the complete unity of thought which binds all things. You are not speaking of similar or somewhat like entities or things. You are every thing, every being, every emotion, every event, every situation. You are unity. You are infinity. You are love/light, light/love. You are. This is the Law of One.

Uniqueness of service

Ra: I am Ra. There is but one service. The Law is One. The offering of self to Creator is the greatest service, the unity, the fountainhead. The entity who seeks the One Creator is with infinite intelligence. From this seeking, from this offering, a great multiplicity of opportunities will evolve depending upon the mind/body/spirit complexes’ distortions with regard to the various illusory aspects or energy centers of the various complexes of your illusion.

Thus, some become healers, some workers, some teachers, and so forth.

The best way of service to others is the constant attempt to seek to share the love of the Creator as it is known to the inner self. This involves self knowledge and the ability to open the self to the other-self without hesitation. This involves, shall we say, radiating that which is the essence or the heart of the mind/body/spirit complex.

Speaking to the intention of your question, the best way for each seeker in third density to be of service to others is unique to that mind/body/spirit complex. This means that the mind/body/spirit complex must then seek within itself the intelligence of its own discernment as to the way it may best serve other-selves. This will be different for each. There is no best. There is no generalization. Nothing is known.

I don't think these portions contradict any part of the Ra material, but in these threads I see unity as not wished to be seen and an expectation that others will mimic the ways self found to be of service. You can see me as being without love but each time I write in these threads, it opens my heart greatly as I seek to share love as it is known within myself.

[Jade]

I think people erroneously anthropomorphize animals

I don't think it's erroneous.

14.1 Questioner: Going back over this morning’s work, [inaudible]. You said the second density strives towards the third density which is the density of self-consciousness or self-awareness. The striving takes place through higher second-density forms invested by third-density beings. Could you explain what you mean by this?

Ra: I am Ra. Much as you would put on a vestment, so do your third-density beings invest or clothe some second-density beings with self-awareness. This is often done through the opportunity of what you call pets. It has also been done by various other means of investiture. These include many so-called religious practice complexes which personify and send love to various natural second-density beings in their group form.

[anagogy]

I don't think it's erroneous.

14.1 Questioner: Going back over this morning’s work, [inaudible]. You said the second density strives towards the third density which is the density of self-consciousness or self-awareness. The striving takes place through higher second-density forms invested by third-density beings. Could you explain what you mean by this?

Ra: I am Ra. Much as you would put on a vestment, so do your third-density beings invest or clothe some second-density beings with self-awareness. This is often done through the opportunity of what you call pets. It has also been done by various other means of investiture. These include many so-called religious practice complexes which personify and send love to various natural second-density beings in their group form.

That Ra quote is referring to pets, so it kind of just proves my point.  Non pets are not taking on these human characteristics, because they are not being invested (or if they are it is happening much more slowly).  When an animal consciousness is at the stage of higher sub vibrational activation, it incarnates in bodies that will have this kind of close pet interaction with humans.  Naturally a pet is going to start taking on more and more anthropomorphic characteristics.  Other animals are a completely different ball game.  They aren't "little people", they aren't yellow ray activated.

[anagogy]

As we've stated previously, their intentions are different, but from the animals' perspective, it is exactly the same as a human rape/murder victim.

We speak from that perspective, because that is the one usually left out.

How do you know what its perspective is?  For all you know it's perfectly content to withdraw into nonphysical and reincarnate in a frisky new body.  That's what some channelers have said.  An animal is devoid of social conditioning (for the most part).  I'd wager is has quite a different perspective than a yellow ray social human.  Appearances are often deceiving.

Scientific research shows that the human body doesn't need meat, or even dairy. Biologically, there is absolutely No need for it, at all, though some people obviously think they need it.

Then why the need to supplement B12, which specifically comes from meat?

So you should have said, "The human body doesn't need meat, as long as you supplement the health promoting stuff that you would normally get from meat."  And doesn't all b12 only come from animal products?

Here are some conditions that have been linked to or exacerbated from lack of b12:

Alzheimer’s, dementia, cognitive decline and memory loss
Multiple sclerosis (MS) and other neurological disorders
Mental illness (depression, anxiety, bipolar disorder, psychosis)
Cardiovascular disease
Learning or developmental disorders in kids
Autism spectrum disorder
Autoimmune disease and immune dysregulation
Cancer
Male and female infertility

And you say the science says we don't need animal products?  Because I'm pretty sure science says the exact opposite of that.  B12 analogs, like those in spirulina have never been proven to be effective in the human body.

Yes. Relevance?

 
The relevance was that just because conditions seem miserable to you, doesn't mean they are actually miserable to the occupants.  A percentage could be miserable, and a percentage could be quite content.  Those who want less, need less to be happy.  Again, appearances can be deceiving.

That is how it happens in the wild, where predators offer swift death to the old and injured. But farm animals are raised specifically for meat and dairy. It's a completely artificial construct.

First off, many predators often play with their food.  I've seen cats "torture" mice for hours before they kill them.  And seen other predators torture/play with the young of other creatures for long periods of time before finally finishing them off.  

Humans have been using livestock almost since their inception.  If that is their ordinary behavior, then that behavior is quite natural.  You're drawing an arbitrary line in the sand between what you believe is natural and what you believe is artificial.

The same reason all the other meat-eaters here at B4 do it: Societal conditioning, speciesism, denial, and self-interest. Many otherwise good and spiritual people thought human slavery was ok, because it was socially acceptable. It is the same with meat-eating today. Those spiritual people might be very evolved in many ways and may have offered wonderful contributions, but they still had the same blind spot. I don't put any human guru on a pedestal.

There are many other great spiritual teachers throughout history that saw the truth of meat-eating.

I'm sorry, but this just doesn't cut it for me.  I don't put anyone on a pedestal either, but I have yet to see one well known channeler who has ever received the "it is more spiritual to not eat meat" edict from their spiritual guides.  You would think it would be a pretty easy message for their guides to convey at some point, especially considering all the other issues people are advised on.

You say 'VERY different' ...please tell us how animals are different from humans.

They aren't yellow ray activated.  Not self aware to any significant extent (some are more so obviously, but usually not those used for consumption).  No social conditioning.  Less of a veil than humans.  They don't even think the same way.  They don't dread the future, and regret the past, they live in the moment.  Not ego driven.

Of course, there are exceptions.  A pet will begin to take on more and more 3rd density characteristics.  Afterall, that's the whole point of incarnating in a body that will play that role with a human.

No, most people are just ignorant. But that is rapidly changing. Once people are aware, and they still insist on satisfying their taste at the expense of sentient beings, then I can only assume at that point that they don't care.

So why do you personally think these animals incarnate in these bodies that will inevitably be slaughtered and used for food?  I recall Ra saying that the orange ray body may live without the inhabitation of the mind and spirit complexes, so why isn't that the case do you think?  Or is that the case with many animals?

[Jade]

I don't think it's erroneous.

14.1 Questioner: Going back over this morning’s work, [inaudible]. You said the second density strives towards the third density which is the density of self-consciousness or self-awareness. The striving takes place through higher second-density forms invested by third-density beings. Could you explain what you mean by this?

Ra: I am Ra. Much as you would put on a vestment, so do your third-density beings invest or clothe some second-density beings with self-awareness. This is often done through the opportunity of what you call pets. It has also been done by various other means of investiture. These include many so-called religious practice complexes which personify and send love to various natural second-density beings in their group form.

That Ra quote is referring to pets, so it kind of just proves my point.  Non pets are not taking on these human characteristics, because they are not being invested (or if they are it is happening much more slowly).  When an animal consciousness is at the stage of higher sub vibrational activation, it incarnates in bodies that will have this kind of close pet interaction with humans.  Naturally a pet is going to start taking on more and more anthropomorphic characteristics.  Other animals are a completely different ball game.  They aren't "little people", they aren't yellow ray activated.

This is often done through the opportunity of what you call pets. It has also been done by various other means of investiture.

The quote is about the various methods of investiture, not just pets. Also, farm animals are domesticated and therefore interact with humans every day, just like pets. They may not be invested with love but they are invested with 3D awareness.

Not to mention, in some places, dogs are livestock, and cows are worshiped. I'd think that the cow deva has actually probably had more spiritual investiture than the canine deva.

[anagogy]

The quote is about the various methods of investiture, not just pets. Also, farm animals are domesticated and therefore interact with humans every day, just like pets. They may not be invested with love but they are invested with 3D awareness.

I'll concede that it involves more than pets, but I seriously doubt it happens to any significant extent in large groupings of animals (like on a farm). In my opinion, it is when humans name an animal, and/or shower it with affection that starts to individuate it -- i.e. the singling it out as a personality unto its own.

[Monica]

in these threads I see unity as not wished to be seen and an expectation that others will mimic the ways self found to be of service.

Elros Tar-Minyatur, I want you to mimic me. So, first of all, quit ALL your vices. RIGHT NOW. Today, right this minute, give up ALL sugar, all white flour, all pesticides, all artificial colorings and flavorings, all meat, all dairy, all eggs, all cannabis, all other drugs, all prescription drugs, and all alcohol. That means NO beer or wine either, Not even socially.

Next, every time you get sick, don't see a doctor. Instead, use herbs. Spend hours every day reading about herbs, vitamins, and homeopathy. Become educated about self-care because your body is the temple of your soul. Drugs pollute the body temple so you must use only natural substances. Doctors and prescriptions are to be used only in extreme, acute emergencies.

Buy only organic, non-GMO foods. When possible, buy local.

Volunteer at animal shelters. Join your local animal-rights group and participate in rallies.

Meditate every morning and night. Read voraciously.

Quit your job and start a business that offers health products to those who are sick. (There are a number of good ones to choose from.) Be aware that this means you will become their free counseling service, because as you start out telling them about how the health product can help their xyz disease, they will often end up telling you their life stories, and you must be patient and compassionate, even if it means spending an hour or more on the phone with them.

Also get involved in politics, but only when there is a candidate who isn't a puppet of the negative elite. You must do your part. Vote in local elections on issues such as removing fluoride.

Try to raise awareness whenever possible, in whatever ways possible, but don't directly approach people in everyday life. That does NOT work. It just pisses them off. Only bring up the animal suffering issue if the person seems open to hearing about it, such as directly asking you about diet, or joining an online discussion about meat. These are ways that they show they are interested. If you just bring it up out of the blue when having dinner with friends, it will be useless.

In most cases, people won't care about the animals anyway. So focus more on how science supports the health benefits of a plant-based diet. That is much more effective in most cases. But, continue to plant seeds regarding the environment and oppression of animals, whenever possible, in an ongoing effort to raise awareness.

Champion oppressed people too. Be willing to get unfriended by your Christian brothers and sisters when you post info on facebook about the oppression of the Palestinians. Continue to show that there is another side to that conflict.

Join an activist group that seeks to bridge the gap between pro-lifers and pro-choicers. Participate in dialogs and write articles. Maybe even host a radio show. Embrace open communication and honest exchange of ideas on these volatile topics. Have the courage to speak up even when your view is unpopular and people tend to lash out rather than face their own denial. Persevere because it's part of your life mission and it's important.

Adopt as many stray animals as you can. If you cannot adopt another, foster the dog or cat until you can find a good home for them. Be sure to prescreen the prospective adopters, especially if the dog is a pit bull. Pull over on the side of the road and pick up scared, running dogs whenever possible.

Plant a garden and fruit trees because that's a great way to get organic food. Grow your own sprouts and learn how to ferment. Then share that knowledge with others, to show how easy it is.

Do all this while juggling 2 businesses and homeschooling your children. Be sure to allow some relaxation time in your garden, and be sure to exercise. You'll want to stay as healthy as you can, to provide service to others.

Whatever you're doing now, Elros Tar-Minyatur, it's Not enough. I want you to do ALL the things I just listed, then report back to me.

...

[Jade]

The quote is about the various methods of investiture, not just pets. Also, farm animals are domesticated and therefore interact with humans every day, just like pets. They may not be invested with love but they are invested with 3D awareness.

I'll concede that it involves more than pets, but I seriously doubt it happens to any significant extent in large groupings of animals (like on a farm).  In my opinion, it is when humans name an animal, and/or shower it with affection that starts to individuate it -- i.e. the singling it out as a personality unto its own.

You think those things have an effect on individuation, but you don't think that a human keeping an animal confined in a cage, bringing it its only source of food, constantly probing it and injecting various medications, and removing its offspring immediately after birth wouldn't have some affect on an animal's self-awareness? Do you think that nothing has a name and ever gets looked in the eye on a factory farm? If each animal had a name placard on their torture cage, would you reconsider your opinion? Again, affectionate love is one way to invest in a 2D being. My belief is that any condition (especially instigated by a human) that pulls a 2D being out of its NATURAL, INSTINCTIVE group mind is what individuates it. I understand we differ in this view, but it's good to ponder why.

[anagogy]

You think those things have an effect on individuation, but you don't think that a human keeping an animal confined in a cage, bringing it its only source of food, constantly probing it and injecting various medications, and removing its offspring immediately after birth wouldn't have some affect on an animal's self-awareness? Do you think that nothing has a name and ever gets looked in the eye on a factory farm? If each animal had a name placard on their torture cage, would you reconsider your opinion? Again, affectionate love is one way to invest in a 2D being. My belief is that any condition (especially instigated by a human) that pulls a 2D being out of its NATURAL, INSTINCTIVE group mind is what individuates it. I understand we differ in this view, but it's good to ponder why.

Hypothetically speaking, let's say you're right. You're just proving that even that experience has value to those 2nd density animals, because it is helping to raise their consciousness. This goes back to one of my earlier points: more bodies equals more experience for their animal group consciousness, and thus, faster evolution. If there are less bodies to incarnate into, there is slower evolution. One could even draw a parallel between the preveil conditions of humans, and these factory farms. Preveil was nice, and idyllic and there was little to no suffering, but spiritual evolution was SLOW. So slow in fact, that the Logos decided to cut us off from our source with the veil because even though it was less pleasant, it *aided* evolution.

[Monica]

How do you know what its perspective is?  For all you know it's perfectly content to withdraw into nonphysical and reincarnate in a frisky new body.  That's what some channelers have said.  An animal is devoid of social conditioning (for the most part).  I'd wager is has quite a different perspective than a yellow ray social human.  Appearances are often deceiving.

So frantically struggling to escape and wailing in pain mean nothing?

Most channelers, like most other people, eat meat. They have their own biases and are in denial just like other people, and it distorts their channeling.

Then why the need to supplement B12, which specifically comes from meat?

That question was answered at the beginning of this thread. B12 doesn't come from meat; it comes from the bacteria in meat. Humans can synthesize B12 just like animals can, if they eat dirty produce.

And you say the science says we don't need animal products?

That's right. The science is quite clear on that.

Because I'm pretty sure science says the exact opposite of that.  B12 analogs, like those in spirulina have never been proven to be effective in the human body.

Science says we need B12, Not that we need meat. As I said, B12 can be synthesized by the human gut, given some bacteria. Most people don't want to eat dirty produce, so they prefer to take a supplement. Also, there is a form of edible algae containing real B12, as an option.

The relevance was that just because conditions seem miserable to you, doesn't mean they are actually miserable to the occupants.  A percentage could be miserable, and a percentage could be quite content.  Those who want less, need less to be happy.  Again, appearances can be deceiving.

Apparently you have never watched any slaughterhouse videos. Please watch these and then tell me that ANY of those animals are content.

Bacon in 60 Seconds

Meet Your Meat

Earthlings

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrhM_NUATl4
Humans have been using livestock almost since their inception.  If that is their ordinary behavior, then that behavior is quite natural.  You're drawing an arbitrary line in the sand between what you believe is natural and what you believe is artificial.
[/quote]

Humans hunted wild animals because they had to for survival. We no longer need to eat or use animals to survive. The modern meat/dairy industry artificially inseminates animals (literally rapes them), injects them with hormones, and crowds them into unnatural conditions, in huge, windowless warehouses where animals go their entire lives without ever seeing the sun or feeling grass beneath their feet.

That's what I mean by artificial.

Not to mention, we're presumably evolving. So just because the caveman did it, doesn't mean we should still do it.

I'm sorry, but this just doesn't cut it for me.  I don't put anyone on a pedestal either, but I have yet to see one well known channeler who has ever received the "it is more spiritual to not eat meat" edict from their spiritual guides.  You would think it would be a pretty easy message for their guides to convey at some point, especially considering all the other issues people are advised on.

Easy? On the contrary. It's probably the hardest message to get through of all!

Just look at how much resistance and defensiveness people show when their meat-eating is questioned. Look at all the meat threads on this forum and you'll see what I mean. Meat is a VERY touchy subject! Channels are human too. They are touchy and defensive about it too, just like other people. When a channel has such a strong bias, it creates a blind spot that their guides cannot get through. That is how the channeled message gets distorted.

They aren't yellow ray activated.  Not self aware to any significant extent (some are more so obviously, but usually not those used for consumption).  

No social conditioning.  Less of a veil than humans.  They don't even think the same way.  They don't dread the future, and regret the past, they live in the moment.  Not ego driven.

Of course, there are exceptions.  A pet will begin to take on more and more 3rd density characteristics.  Afterall, that's the whole point of incarnating in a body that will play that role with a human.

You are simply wrong, on all those counts. This isn't my opinion, but fact, proven by scientific studies (not to mention simple observation).

Pigs, cows, chickens, turkeys, and even rats - rats! have demonstrated not only self-awareness, but even empathy for others. Pigs solve puzzles faster than human toddlers, and are considered smarter than dogs by scientific research. Rats have saved other rats before eating or saving themselves. Cows have social groups and best friends, and have gone back to free other cows, after figuring out how to free themselves. Wild animals have saved other wild animals, even picked up human trash and put it in the trash can, not once but repeatedly. Be sure to click on the link about scientists proving that animals are self-aware and have a consciousness and rich emotions just like humans. There is a TON of clear, irrefutable evidence that animals are VERY self-aware!

Here, see for yourself:

Bring4th Studies > Strictly Law of One Material v > Ra's Statements About 2D Entities

This also includes what Ra says about 2D entities, which I think is kinda important, so I encourage you to read the whole thread before continuing this conversation (so I don't have to repeat myself...thanks). Be sure to read the linked threads in Post #1, which show the video of the bear saving the bird, the swans feeding the goldfish, the dog trying to save the fish, the bird picking up trash, and many more. More and more keep getting recorded...so many I can't even keep up with them. And, it links to some of the scientific studies as well, though there are many more buried in these meat threads.

So why do you personally think these animals incarnate in these bodies that will inevitably be slaughtered and used for food?  I recall Ra saying that the orange ray body may live without the inhabitation of the mind and spirit complexes, so why isn't that the case do you think?  Or is that the case with many animals?

I've speculated about this extensively in the older meat threads, and again in this thread, over the past few days. You might want to scroll through this thread and catch up.

...

[Jade]

You think those things have an effect on individuation, but you don't think that a human keeping an animal confined in a cage, bringing it its only source of food, constantly probing it and injecting various medications, and removing its offspring immediately after birth wouldn't have some affect on an animal's self-awareness? Do you think that nothing has a name and ever gets looked in the eye on a factory farm? If each animal had a name placard on their torture cage, would you reconsider your opinion? Again, affectionate love is one way to invest in a 2D being. My belief is that any condition (especially instigated by a human) that pulls a 2D being out of its NATURAL, INSTINCTIVE group mind is what individuates it. I understand we differ in this view, but it's good to ponder why.

Hypothetically speaking, let's say you're right.  You're just proving that even that experience has value to those 2nd density animals, because it is helping to raise their consciousness.  This goes back to one of my earlier points: more bodies equals more experience for their animal group consciousness, and thus, faster evolution.  If there are less bodies to incarnate into, there is slower evolution.  One could even draw a parallel between the preveil conditions of humans, and these factory farms.  Preveil was nice, and idyllic and there was little to no suffering, but spiritual evolution was SLOW.  So slow in fact, that the Logos decided to cut us off from our source with the veil because even though it was less pleasant, it *aided* evolution.

Of course, I'm not arguing this point. I was arguing the point that it's erroneous and nigh impossible to individuate factory farm animals. But, this new point emerging that, not all beings in factory farms are "merely" 2D awareness  - it IS possible that some have 3D awareness. I don't think that's as big of a change of awareness as you are arguing, however, so I don't feel "more bad" for the 3D beings in factory farms than the 2D beings - but I feel just as "bad" about what's happening to the animals as I do to anything that is happening to humans. I don't believe it's "more okay" because they are "merely" 2D awareness, which seems to be a lot of the argument for participating in the factory farm paradigm. If this were happening to humans, no one would argue so staunchly that it's for the "greater good".

Again, I propose the argument that if someone is sick, and they ask for my help, my help is not to let them languish in their self-imposed, debilitating illness, my help is to try to alleviate the symptoms. There are many types of service, many choices. All action is service. All is well.

[Diana]

Hypothetically speaking, let's say you're right.  You're just proving that even that experience has value to those 2nd density animals, because it is helping to raise their consciousness.  This goes back to one of my earlier points: more bodies equals more experience for their animal group consciousness, and thus, faster evolution.  If there are less bodies to incarnate into, there is slower evolution.  One could even draw a parallel between the preveil conditions of humans, and these factory farms.  Preveil was nice, and idyllic and there was little to no suffering, but spiritual evolution was SLOW.  So slow in fact, that the Logos decided to cut us off from our source with the veil because even though it was less pleasant, it *aided* evolution.

It never ceases to amaze me the lengths B4 members will go to justify the needless torture and killing of animals. 

Many people are compassionate, but tend to only have an open heart for their families and close friends. I wonder how those with opinions like the above would feel if they actually interacted with wildlife like I do. Almost every day I have deer in my yard. The deer have distinct personalities. They look me in the eye and they communicate in various ways. I try not to worry during hunting season that one of the herd, most of whom I have known for 6 years and seen their babies grow up, will get killed. 

I have always abhorred killing anything, but my awareness had to reach a certain expansion before I realized that even spiders and cockroaches also deserved to live—I never killed them but let others do so. This is analogous to meat-eaters who don't do the killing. I expect as awareness grows, if my example means anything, those who consume animal products may reach a place in their hearts where they don't want to contribute anymore to needless torture and killing. Perhaps I'm wrong, and 3D earth will stay in this predator/prey phase. But I envision something less cruel and more evolved. It is not necessary to evolve through suffering, as everyone will know from canvassing their own lives, it's just an effective "kick in the butt" way for beings who are basically lazy and don't like change (this includes all animals and humans).

I will beat you to the punch ETM and say that I understand the concept of "everything is perfect as it is," but I think this idea is highly misunderstood and used in distorted ways. Things may be perfect in that everything is unfolding as it is, in other words, it just is, in a cosmic soup of everything. But the trajectory of that unfolding is based on decisions. I don't think it's just a soup where everything is willy-nilly and we are pawns to do just anything because it's there to do. I think we are all creators as well, and that means what we choose to do is key to that unfolding. 

[anagogy]

Of course, I'm not arguing this point. I was arguing the point that it's erroneous and nigh impossible to individuate factory farm animals. But, this new point emerging that, not all beings in factory farms are "merely" 2D awareness  - it IS possible that some have 3D awareness. I don't think that's as big of a change of awareness as you are arguing, however, so I don't feel "more bad" for the 3D beings in factory farms than the 2D beings - but I feel just as "bad" about what's happening to the animals as I do to anything that is happening to humans. I don't believe it's "more okay" because they are "merely" 2D awareness, which seems to be a lot of the argument for participating in the factory farm paradigm.  

You used "merely" in quotations like you are implying that I think that 2nd density beings are lower than humans.  I don't think that for the record.  They are just different.  Different priorities.  Different sense of reality.  Different pattern of consciousness.  I also don't think it is possible for an animal to have full 3D consciousness.  A 3rd density body is required for that.  It just becomes "3rd density harvestable".  

If this were happening to humans, no one would argue so staunchly that it's for the "greater good"

The problem with your analogy is you can't compare the two.  Like I keep saying, they are different.  The difference between 2nd density and 3rd density is the same factor of difference as between 2nd density and 1st density.  That's what nobody seems to get or understand, and why so many things in the animal kingdom seem cruel to people.  It's human nature to anthropomorphize.  But it's sort of like trying to get a snake to take care of its young, because you ignorantly thought they were like human babies.  It would make no sense, and is short sighted, and fails to see things as they are.  

[anagogy]

It never ceases to amaze me the lengths B4 members will go to justify the needless torture and killing of animals. 

And it never ceases to amaze me the lengths some people will go to to avoid accepting things as they are.

The ugly only stops being ugly when you stop seeing it as ugly.

I'm reminded of an applicable Ra quote: "Healing occurs when a mind/body/spirit complex realizes, deep within itself, the Law of One; that is, that there is no disharmony, no imperfection; that all is complete and whole and perfect. Thus, the intelligent infinity within this mind/body/spirit complex re-forms the illusion of body, mind, or spirit to a form congruent with the Law of One."

I've said it before and I will say it again:

a) We create our own reality.

b) We didn't come to fix a broken world.

c) Beings know exactly what they have in store for them prior to incarnating.

d) Resonating with what you perceive to be misery creates more of it, not less.

[Minyatur]

in these threads I see unity as not wished to be seen and an expectation that others will mimic the ways self found to be of service.

Elros Tar-Minyatur, I want you to mimic me. So, first of all, quit ALL your vices. RIGHT NOW. Today, right this minute, give up ALL sugar, all white flour, all pesticides, all artificial colorings and flavorings, all meat, all dairy, all eggs, all cannabis, all other drugs, all prescription drugs, and all alcohol. That means NO beer or wine either, Not even socially.

Next, every time you get sick, don't see a doctor. Instead, use herbs. Spend hours every day reading about herbs, vitamins, and homeopathy. Become educated about self-care because your body is the temple of your soul. Drugs pollute the body temple so you must use only natural substances. Doctors and prescriptions are to be used only in extreme, acute emergencies.

Buy only organic, non-GMO foods. When possible, buy local.

Volunteer at animal shelters. Join your local animal-rights group and participate in rallies.

Meditate every morning and night. Read voraciously.

Quit your job and start a business that offers health products to those who are sick. (There are a number of good ones to choose from.) Be aware that this means you will become their free counseling service, because as you start out telling them about how the health product can help their xyz disease, they will often end up telling you their life stories, and you must be patient and compassionate, even if it means spending an hour or more on the phone with them.

Also get involved in politics, but only when there is a candidate who isn't a puppet of the negative elite. You must do your part. Vote in local elections on issues such as removing fluoride.

Try to raise awareness whenever possible, in whatever ways possible, but don't directly approach people in everyday life. That does NOT work. It just pisses them off. Only bring up the animal suffering issue if the person seems open to hearing about it, such as directly asking you about diet, or joining an online discussion about meat. These are ways that they show they are interested. If you just bring it up out of the blue when having dinner with friends, it will be useless.

In most cases, people won't care about the animals anyway. So focus more on how science supports the health benefits of a plant-based diet. That is much more effective in most cases. But, continue to plant seeds regarding the environment and oppression of animals, whenever possible, in an ongoing effort to raise awareness.

Champion oppressed people too. Be willing to get unfriended by your Christian brothers and sisters when you post info on facebook about the oppression of the Palestinians. Continue to show that there is another side to that conflict.

Join an activist group that seeks to bridge the gap between pro-lifers and pro-choicers. Participate in dialogs and write articles. Maybe even host a radio show. Embrace open communication and honest exchange of ideas on these volatile topics. Have the courage to speak up even when your view is unpopular and people tend to lash out rather than face their own denial. Persevere because it's part of your life mission and it's important.

Adopt as many stray animals as you can. If you cannot adopt another, foster the dog or cat until you can find a good home for them. Be sure to prescreen the prospective adopters, especially if the dog is a pit bull. Pull over on the side of the road and pick up scared, running dogs whenever possible.

Plant a garden and fruit trees because that's a great way to get organic food. Grow your own sprouts and learn how to ferment. Then share that knowledge with others, to show how easy it is.

Do all this while juggling 2 businesses and homeschooling your children. Be sure to allow some relaxation time in your garden, and be sure to exercise. You'll want to stay as healthy as you can, to provide service to others.

Whatever you're doing now, Elros Tar-Minyatur, it's Not enough. I want you to do ALL the things I just listed, then report back to me.

...

Then I could ask you to give up all of your ways of being of service. Out of love for the beings that are unlike you and of which you lack an understanding of, I want you to close your heart and move into STS densities. There you are to support a group that does work of darkness, to give them support in their deeds even if you do feel need to do what they do for yourself. To provide guidance and understanding to those who need it and reject not any steps of their path.

You may awaken a side of yourself you've been repressing and doing the actual work I was doing would take you time to re-balance yourself anew. This process is long but is required for your service to have any value in itself.

[Jade]

Of course, I'm not arguing this point. I was arguing the point that it's erroneous and nigh impossible to individuate factory farm animals. But, this new point emerging that, not all beings in factory farms are "merely" 2D awareness  - it IS possible that some have 3D awareness. I don't think that's as big of a change of awareness as you are arguing, however, so I don't feel "more bad" for the 3D beings in factory farms than the 2D beings - but I feel just as "bad" about what's happening to the animals as I do to anything that is happening to humans. I don't believe it's "more okay" because they are "merely" 2D awareness, which seems to be a lot of the argument for participating in the factory farm paradigm.  

You used "merely" in quotations like you are implying that I think that 2nd density beings are lower than humans.  I don't think that for the record.  They are just different.  Different priorities.  Different sense of reality.  Different pattern of consciousness.  I also don't think it is possible for an animal to have full 3D consciousness.  A 3rd density body is required for that.  It just becomes "3rd density harvestable".  

I disagree for a myriad of reasons. One being Maldek choosing imprisonment in 2D bodies with their post 3D harvestable consciousness. Do you think it's a chakra thing - like animals don't have the higher chakras in potentiation? How come when Ra says that when one activates each new level of awareness, it is a "springboard" to the next? Do you think animals just "stall out" at the threshhold between 2D and 3D until they incarnate in human form? Why would entities like Gandalf choose to come back into bodies where they can effectively learn no lessons? Is that really possible?

What makes a dolphin animal body so much closer to a human's but different than a fish? What makes a elephant so much different than a rat? These are arguably "advanced consciousness" species that coexist on our earth with us... evolving in consciousness and awareness even in animal form.

Ra says that some physical 1D earth structures (implying mountains) can reach 3d awareness and radiate love, how is that possible?

If this were happening to humans, no one would argue so staunchly that it's for the "greater good"

The problem with your analogy is you can't compare the two.  Like I keep saying, they are different.  The difference between 2nd density and 3rd density is the same factor of difference as between 2nd density and 1st density.  That's what nobody seems to get or understand, and why so many things in the animal kingdom seem cruel to people.  It's human nature to anthropomorphize.  But it's sort of like trying to get a snake to take care of its young, because you ignorantly thought they were like human babies.  It would make no sense, and is short sighted, and fails to see things as they are. 

I'm not sure the snake analogy is the best. Firstly, there are plenty of humans who have zero interest in rearing their offspring. Secondly, factory farms are producing cows, pigs, and chickens, all which are attached to and rear their young. Have you ever seen an animal mourn losing its young? It's visceral, and it happens even in the wild. Some mothers will stress themselves and starve themselves to death after losing a child. Maternal instincts are hardly a trait that only humans experience.

You again imply the folly of anthropomorphization but that is distinctly how we serve our 2D bretheren. Why can't we compare the two?

b) We didn't come to fix a broken world.

I agree and disagree. There is the famous Q'uo quote that says "You didn't come here to fix it, you came here to love it" - but that's precisely because you -can't- fix it if you -don't- love it. So first, you must love it, and then your acceptance and love will allow more acceptance and love to replace the old energies. And no, I am not resonating with misery, I am recognizing its existence and resonating with a different reality, so I am doing my best to assist in the transition.

[Diana]

It never ceases to amaze me the lengths B4 members will go to justify the needless torture and killing of animals. 

And it never ceases to amaze me the lengths some people will go to to avoid accepting things as they are.

This is taken out of context with the rest of my post. I addressed what I thought about the way things are. It's more complex, in my opinion, than just saying to accept things the way they are.

The ugly only stops being ugly when you stop seeing it as ugly.

I agree with you here. But again, it is complex. There may be a perspective in higher dimensions, where one can see how soul choices are played out and souls evolve (and let's remember that we can only speculate here about the soul choices of animals unless one of us is some kind of advanced living master), where the beauty of factory farms can be comprehended.

Where does choice come into this for you? On what basis do you make choices?

I'm reminded of an applicable Ra quote: "Healing occurs when a mind/body/spirit complex realizes, deep within itself, the Law of One; that is, that there is no disharmony, no imperfection; that all is complete and whole and perfect. Thus, the intelligent infinity within this mind/body/spirit complex re-forms the illusion of body, mind, or spirit to a form congruent with the Law of One."

The is a basic idea. One must first stop resisting what is, then proceed. But there is a distinction here at B4 that I think is being missed. Let me try to articulate it.

I personally don't resist anything that is going on here. I have already accepted 3D as it is. But that does not mean I am going to 1) be OF this place, or 2) participate in unnecessary cruelty just because that's what's done here. I think the confusion comes into this because members like myself are here discussing these ideas with (presumably) others who are open-minded enough to talk about them, and this comes across as trying to change what is. What is, is. But we are still creators ourselves. So do we just perpetuate what is (easy, do nothing new because it's all perfect) or do we create something new? No right or wrong. Just a choice.

I've said it before and I will say it again:

a) We create our own reality.

b) We didn't come to fix a broken world.

I have addressed these 2 in the paragraph above.

c) Beings know exactly what they have in store for them prior to incarnating.

You seem very sure, like this is a fact. This is a working theory only. It may sound correct, but as we are capable of holding more information, perceptions change. Even Ra did not know anything beyond a certain point in evolution of souls.

d) Resonating with what you perceive to be misery creates more of it, not less.

I agree. But that is not what is happening here. This is partly semantic, because I could say that you are resonating with misery by consuming it. I don't resonate with misery. But I do have empathy. I am not advanced enough to see a calf torn from its mother, put in a pen so small it can't move, alone for its lifetime, force-fed, plied with antibiotics and growth hormones, crying and in misery, then taken to slaughter where its pitiable life is ended in more cruelty, so humans can have veal, and not think that is unnecessary cruelty. (Let's add here that humans can survive without animal products, whether they want to or not.)

We are just talking here about what concerns us within a spiritual context, primarily the Ra Material. Perhaps I make the mistake that I have friends here who will understand that it's a relief to be able to articulate the way I feel for the reasons I do. I have spent my life with all this stuff almost exclusively in my head.

[Monica]

You missed the whole point of that, didn't you Elros Tar-Minyatur? Since you keep insisting that we are trying to 'control' others and 'force them to mimic us' I thought I'd show what those things actually look like.

Then I could ask you to give up all of your ways of being of service. Out of love for the beings that are unlike you and of which you lack an understanding of, I want you to close your heart and move into STS densities. There you are to support a group that does work of darkness, to give them support in their deeds even if you do feel need to do what they do for yourself. To provide guidance and understanding to those who need it and reject not any steps of their path.

You may awaken a side of yourself you've been repressing and doing the actual work I was doing would take you time to re-balance yourself anew. This process is  long but is required for your service to have any value in itself.

I knew it! An STS infiltrator! Quick, someone call the mods!

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