How do you prove you're real?

[The_Tired_Philosopher]

Just a contemplation I had recently.

Anyone wish to share how they can prove they're real?

[AnthroHeart]

"I think therefore I am"

But who is doing the thinking?

[anagogy]

Just a contemplation I had recently.

Anyone wish to share how they can prove they're real?

"I think therefore I am"

But who is doing the thinking?

I really like that quote by Descartes that gemini shared here.  Your awareness that you exist is the most fundamental a priori realization one can have.  In fact, it is one of the few things you cannot doubt.  If you were not real, how could you be aware?  While one can speculate upon the mortality or immortality of the fact in question, you cannot doubt that you really do subjectively feel an awareness of existing.  It is intrinsic.

But then the next question is: what is this awareness of existence?  If I had to characterize the difference, metaphysically, between the 8th density and the 7th density it would be this: 7th density = "I AM".  8th density = "AM".

Or perhaps you mean real in some other sense than the ontological?  

[The_Tired_Philosopher]

Illusions too believe they are real because they experience.

Just because you are, doesn't mean you actually are.
Imagine being a self aware illusion. You're not real, but feel like you are. Weird how that works, so once more I still don't know how to prove yourself real.

As Gem says, who does the thinking? What is a thought, why does it make me any more real than the passing notice of an entity or the whim of ones awareness?

How can I prove my thoughts are real?

I'm just trying to plumb how much people question their reality. Most never go beyond their thoughts as validation.

[APeacefulWarrior]

I consider things to be real based on their effects, myself included. If something can create an observable change in its environment, then it's real.

[anagogy]

Illusions too believe they are real because they experience.

Just because you are, doesn't mean you actually are.  
Imagine being a self aware illusion.  You're not real, but feel like you are.  Weird how that works, so once more I still don't know how to prove yourself real.

As Gem says, who does the thinking?  What is a thought, why does it make me any more real than the passing notice of an entity or the whim of ones awareness?

How can I prove my thoughts are real?

I'm just trying to plumb how much people question their reality.  Most never go beyond their thoughts as validation.

But see, that is exactly what I'm getting at: what is the difference between the perfect illusion of a thing, and the thing actually being so?  There is no difference.

The perfect simulation of "existence" is no different than existence.  The perfect illusion of a tree, is no different than an actual tree.  If the creator knows all things, all potentials, then all potentials are real.  Because the knowingness, or simulation of experience, is perfect down to the finest detail.  I'm just trying to point out the threshold, beyond which the distinction is not apparent, and therefore completely arbitrary.

To play devils advocate for a moment, say your thoughts are fake.  What is the difference between fake and real?  If there is no difference, why worry about the distinction? From my vantage point, if you have no barometer for unreal, than by default, things are real. Real and unreal are relative to one another. Without the relativity, there can be no distinction. 

[Minyatur]

In my view we are real, what is fake is simply how you define what you are. As long as you think of yourself in other ways than being the OIC in your "room of nothingness" dreaming of your senses and body, then you are grounded within the illusions you set yourself to experience. The human ego in itself as an identity is born from the meeting of body, mind and spirit. What you are as a human will be as long as you live, then everything that makes you will carry on their respective evolution with their share of the experience, the soul being the furthest one in it's path. A mind/spirit/body complex in a way is just a mind-like spirit/body-like spirit/spirit complex. There's just awareness, there's just soul, there's just the OIC, there's just us. Your body in itself is a world of which you are the God, you can either take good care of it or destroy it, both scenarios offer catalyst to what makes it up.

The basic nature of your awareness that simply is, is the very thing that is real and the very thing that is making up everything around you. There is only awareness taking upon itself identity, this identity is fake because our true essence is that of infinite potential which is not limited to a strand of experience in itself like we are. The state of infinite potential is reached in-between every octaves when one rejoins with the Source and let go on his past experiences and identity to become what we truly are, which is the potential to become anything and everything.

I disagree with a notion that an illusion can believe it is real, an awareness can believe it is something within illusion and define wrongly what it is.

[anagogy]

I disagree with a notion that an illusion can believe it is real, an awareness can believe it is something within illusion and define wrongly what it is.

Exactly. The experiencer cannot be the experience. The creator is the backdrop of the created. Awareness is the creator.

[Minyatur]

I disagree with a notion that an illusion can believe it is real, an awareness can believe it is something within illusion and define wrongly what it is.

Exactly.  The experiencer cannot be the experience.  The creator is the backdrop of the created.  Awareness is the creator.

Or like it is described in quantum mechanics, the observer that makes reality remain coherent. Each of us is an observer, but ultimately we all are the very same Observer.

I tend to call the OIC, the One Infinite Dreamer because of this notion. We are not fake, we are dreaming of our reality.

[AnthroHeart]

I disagree with a notion that an illusion can believe it is real, an awareness can believe it is something within illusion and define wrongly what it is.

Exactly.  The experiencer cannot be the experience.  The creator is the backdrop of the created.  Awareness is the creator.

I thought Ra said that Creator is the Creation.

Actually it was:

13.5 Questioner: Thank you. Can you tell me of the earliest, first known thing in the creation?

Ra: I am Ra. The first known thing in the creation is infinity. The infinity is creation.

[anagogy]

I thought Ra said that Creator is the Creation.

Actually it was:

13.5 Questioner: Thank you. Can you tell me of the earliest, first known thing in the creation?

Ra: I am Ra. The first known thing in the creation is infinity. The infinity is creation.

Well, you are right IGW, the creator is the creation.  But we are dealing with abstract concepts here.  The creator is the creation in the exact same way that a mirror is reflecting your image.  The appearance is not the reality.  You could say that you are it, but what you see with your bodily senses is a distorted (inverted) reflection of your essence as creator.  The "eye" cannot actually see itself, only a reflection of itself.  This is why, in my opinion, the 8th density is eternal mystery.  The essence of the creator is unquantifiable.  Beingness cannot be "known".  Only the creations of the mind can be "known".  Knowing is a function of mind.  There is a reality beyond mind, and that is 8th density, or pure spirit.  What you see reflected, in the mirror of mind, is matter, which can be known and quantified.  

But awareness is the backdrop of all existence.  I'm not sure if I'm making this clear, but that is how I see things.  The reflection is subject to the reflectee.  And the reflector (which would be akin to the mind) just reflects things, as per its nature.  "Will" comes from the spirit.

[AnthroHeart]

I don't really care if this is illusion and I am but a dancing thought. At least I can experience.

[Nicholas]

Just a contemplation I had recently.

Anyone wish to share how they can prove they're real?

The answer I was given to "what is real?" merely added to my own confusion at the time...

Remember Everything Always Love.

Other than that I suggest you pinch yourself, because I cannot prove that it hurts 

[Minyatur]

Actually, how do you define not being real?

[Raz]

to OP;
There is a secret you hold
that can not be proven or told
the secret is that you are where you are
and not in a cat, dog or star...

[isis]

I can only prove I'm real to myself. & I can't prove anything is real (to myself) other than myself - my awareness. Wait, what? This thread hurts my brain.

[isis]

On 2nd thought, maybe I can only highly suspect I'm real. I guess I can't prove I'm real to even myself.

[Aion]

I challenge you to fisticuffs.

[The_Tired_Philosopher]

If that's the game I think it is, my personal opinion is to just team up with you on a fps game so my urge to shoot you can be projected onto others. . . . .

Illusions too believe they are real because they experience.

Just because you are, doesn't mean you actually are.  
Imagine being a self aware illusion.  You're not real, but feel like you are.  Weird how that works, so once more I still don't know how to prove yourself real.

As Gem says, who does the thinking?  What is a thought, why does it make me any more real than the passing notice of an entity or the whim of ones awareness?

How can I prove my thoughts are real?

I'm just trying to plumb how much people question their reality.  Most never go beyond their thoughts as validation.

But see, that is exactly what I'm getting at: what is the difference between the perfect illusion of a thing, and the thing actually being so?  There is no difference.

The perfect simulation of "existence" is no different than existence.  The perfect illusion of a tree, is no different than an actual tree.  If the creator knows all things, all potentials, then all potentials are real.  Because the knowingness, or simulation of experience, is perfect down to the finest detail.  I'm just trying to point out the threshold, beyond which the distinction is not apparent, and therefore completely arbitrary.

To play devils advocate for a moment, say your thoughts are fake.  What is the difference between fake and real?  If there is no difference, why worry about the distinction?  From my vantage point, if you have no barometer for unreal, than by default, things are real.  Real and unreal are relative to one another.  Without the relativity, there can be no distinction. 

Quantum Mechanics is my barometer, your absence of separation is commendable but by your own words, separation is very real then.

Hence, I literally do not comprehend how you ignore your own logic to make your own logic work.

In my view we are real, what is fake is simply how you define what you are. As long as you think of yourself in other ways than being the OIC in your "room of nothingness" dreaming of your senses and body, then you are grounded within the illusions you set yourself to experience. The human ego in itself as an identity is born from the meeting of body, mind and spirit. What you are as a human will be as long as you live, then everything that makes you will carry on their respective evolution with their share of the experience, the soul being the furthest one in it's path. A mind/spirit/body complex in a way is just a mind-like spirit/body-like spirit/spirit complex. There's just awareness, there's just soul, there's just the OIC, there's just us. Your body in itself is a world of which you are the God, you can either take good care of it or destroy it, both scenarios offer catalyst to what makes it up.

The basic nature of your awareness that simply is, is the very thing that is real and the very thing that is making up everything around you. There is only awareness taking upon itself identity, this identity is fake because our true essence is that of infinite potential which is not limited to a strand of experience in itself like we are. The state of infinite potential is reached in-between every octaves when one rejoins with the Source and let go on his past experiences and identity to become what we truly are, which is the potential to become anything and everything.

I disagree with a notion that an illusion can believe it is real, an awareness can believe it is something within illusion and define wrongly what it is.

So basically I as myself dont really exist but am real...???

At least your reasoning is sensible but my comprehension lacks perceiving how this proves to yourself that you're real beyond admitting you're made up of real parts you can't ascertain to be real or not and just assume or believe.

As for your last sentence.  You negate your entire point in my view with it, because to me, you are illusion, as am I.  If I follow your logic at the very end, you're basically assuming all you've said without knowing if it and you are real but assuming a mechanic of both operating?

I'm confused overall by you at times Min.
But you make me really want to do shrooms to see what you see.

I disagree with a notion that an illusion can believe it is real, an awareness can believe it is something within illusion and define wrongly what it is.

Exactly.  The experiencer cannot be the experience.  The creator is the backdrop of the created.  Awareness is the creator.

Or like it is described in quantum mechanics, the observer that makes reality remain coherent. Each of us is an observer, but ultimately we all are the very same Observer.

I tend to call the OIC, the One Infinite Dreamer because of this notion. We are not fake, we are dreaming of our reality.

I can see this but wish I had a say as an eyeball where I'm pointed at.

I thought Ra said that Creator is the Creation.

Actually it was:

13.5 Questioner: Thank you. Can you tell me of the earliest, first known thing in the creation?

Ra: I am Ra. The first known thing in the creation is infinity. The infinity is creation.

Well, you are right IGW, the creator is the creation.  But we are dealing with abstract concepts here.  The creator is the creation in the exact same way that a mirror is reflecting your image.  The appearance is not the reality.  You could say that you are it, but what you see with your bodily senses is a distorted (inverted) reflection of your essence as creator.  The "eye" cannot actually see itself, only a reflection of itself.  This is why, in my opinion, the 8th density is eternal mystery.  The essence of the creator is unquantifiable.  Beingness cannot be "known".  Only the creations of the mind can be "known".  Knowing is a function of mind.  There is a reality beyond mind, and that is 8th density, or pure spirit.  What you see reflected, in the mirror of mind, is matter, which can be known and quantified.  

But awareness is the backdrop of all existence.  I'm not sure if I'm making this clear, but that is how I see things.  The reflection is subject to the reflectee.  And the reflector (which would be akin to the mind) just reflects things, as per its nature.  "Will" comes from the spirit.

I guess I'll reiterate.  How do you know or prove you're not the reflection, not just an image who being exactly the same in all perceivable ways, isn't just an image, disappearing as quickly as it appeared?

I don't really care if this is illusion and I am but a dancing thought. At least I can experience.

I'm glad you're positive about it.  I'm tired of experiencing.

Just a contemplation I had recently.

Anyone wish to share how they can prove they're real?

The answer I was given to "what is real?" merely added to my own confusion at the time...

Remember Everything Always Love.

Other than that I suggest you pinch yourself, because I cannot prove that it hurts 

I can, it involves noticing how one degrades with pain.
Of any style, physical, mental, emotional, spiritual.

Its not diversion, its destruction.

When its enjoyed, obviously the being has inflicted enough pain to find its return pleasant as well.

Real to me is the ability to question it.  If I can't question it, how could it be real...for me individually?
Others see something beyond real and flock to it like flies to a light (no insult intended!!!)
I question it.  Thats how I define and believe.  But I like going further than questioning once.

Yes, air is real, can't see it but its there.  Are my guides real?  Intuition pings back yes, my synchronicity says yes.  Ieven am terrified after this incarnation ends itll all be just a joke somehow like oh yeah I was Joe and I didn't know anything and it drove me mad LOL

So I question, and honestly, hope at death I disappear and whatever I am continues on haunted by me.  I hope it learns more than it bargained for.

Because I, am not, that.  And so far, no one here has offered anything I see as means to view I and that as the same IN THIS PLACE (3D).  Until I do, I think my soul might need to be taught a lesson about putting 3D life through hell.

How to do that?  Dunno.  Its not a bargain, its an effect to a cause.

That is how I understand Reality, there is an effect to a cause.  The effect creates the cause.

Its backwards.  Reality like society, is backwards.

Actually, how do you define not being real?

The opposite way I define being real.

Which is being questionable.  If it isn't in a way that can produce answers as to effect and cause, why should I believe its real?  How do I define its reality when I can't?  I know its unperceivable? That's enough to know its something, I believe Ra is real, as well as octave settings and systems of intelligent creation.

Because they are in a sense, questionable but proveable.

Now I'm sure there's something real and unquestionable.  My opinion on those, you haven't thought of the question or all questions are known and answered that currently need to be.

How do you know a really really real hallucination wasnt actually real?

Does an LSD trip make you experience unreality or is it just illusion caused by some mechanical occurrences of the real?

If real can produce illusions which appear as real as reality, what is actually real or illusion? How do you know?
I'm not speaking of The Matrix tier nonsense, I'm speaking philosophical tier nonsense (I mean, what is sense?)

If illusion is as good as real, what is real?

to OP;
There is a secret you hold
that can not be proven or told
the secret is that you are where you are
and not in a cat, dog or star...

According to images of the Universe which may or may not be real (self reality pun, ba dum tish)

I'm inside of a neuron in a cosmic brain.

Isis: since my quote button has failed me and I'm not fighting my.mobile browser anymore.

I think it is possible to prove something is real, just impossible to prove that your proof is also real.

I wonder where I go in my sleep.  Why I cease and must return, why dreams are better than reality.  Is my awareness even real? Or is it like Min said, just an occurrence from partial things creating something more?

Aion, your pain can still be illusion, even if it feels real.

Also I seriously would shot the person who came up with that game.  What a great way to bully..  .

(That only took 3 hours to write)

[anagogy]

Quantum Mechanics is my barometer, your absence of separation is commendable but by your own words, separation is very real then.

Hence, I literally do not comprehend how you ignore your own logic to make your own logic work.

And I don't understand what you mean when you say "quantum physics is my barometer".  How does quantum physics prove whether you, or anything for that matter, is real or not?

I guess I'll reiterate.  How do you know or prove you're not the reflection, not just an image who being exactly the same in all perceivable ways, isn't just an image, disappearing as quickly as it appeared?

I wasn't arguing for whether I was permanent or impermanent.  I thought we were determining if one was real or not (like as in: does one really exist).  And for me, it is not even a question, so it kind of boggles my mind.  From my perspective the fact that I do indeed exist is the most fundamental and obvious thing in my consciousness.  My self awareness validates the fact that I AM.  To me, it is intrinsic, and undeniable.  I mean, can you really doubt that you are AWARE? And is not awarenes the very epitome of existence itself?  Be objective here, don't argue just for arguments sake.  I'm really perplexed why this isn't apparent.  

[Minyatur]

If illusion is as good as real, what is real?

Awareness is real, it is the dreamer. Experience, identity and such are the dream. You can call them fake, but outside these illusions lie only nothingness. Through these illusions we learn to become what is not nothing, we learn to know what we become under infinite circumstances and causes and effects.

Each of us is the OIC experiencing being away from itself. Upon entering the game and through experience we create distortions or rather resistance to our true self, and as such we avoid in infinite ways going back to it(ending the game). This is so until it is all worked off and we become once again in awareness what we always are. When the dream of an Octave ends, the experience is harvested and brings forth a new experience within the upper level which in turns will permit for newer experiences to be in the Octave from which it was harvested.

We live and exist within illusions, but that is because will is very real. There was a will for something greater than nothingness, there was a will to be, there was a will to not be alone, there was a will to be love and be loved. If everything was a 100% fake, then there would be nothing. Even if we are thoughts, thoughts imply a thinker. Just like you can think about being things and create them, it was thought to be you and the experience of it was created. All experiences lead to the same place, to the Source, to the Intelligent Infnity. The Source is the One experiencing all, it is the One who is truly alone and wants to dream that it is not so and create myriads of illusions to experience it not being so.

[Minyatur]

I'm confused overall by you at times Min.
But you make me really want to do shrooms to see what you see.

What I see is my true self. It is awareness that I am the OIC, or rather an individualized portion of it. That I have roamed this Universe for a very long time although I have not dwelled in remembering specefic things or events. It is awareness that I don't actually want to reach back to the Source as I care about the illusion of my identity. That I am the OIC that does not want to leave this game, which is fine as this Universe has countless wonders for me to behold until I am satisfied and will wish to let go of everything I have ever been in this individualized portion of what we all are.

I never had faith issues so much although what my faith lies in has been redefined more than once. My awakening has mostly been happening with a friend of mine who share most of the same inner wisdom as I do (with differences of experiences, obviously). As we both pierce of veil, we experience a lot of the same things and each remember more and more of what we are outside of here. The harmony our of discussions and deepness into which we can go is out of this world, and beyond what we experienced as humans. At first I pierced my veil more quickly than him as he did not believe it was possible to know things down here, but spend time on psychedelics with me and I'll do wonders to your veil and nitpick all the unconscious resistance your are blind to.

[Aion]

If that's the game I think it is, my personal opinion is to just team up with you on a fps game so my urge to shoot you can be projected onto others. . . . .

Illusions too believe they are real because they experience.

Just because you are, doesn't mean you actually are.  
Imagine being a self aware illusion.  You're not real, but feel like you are.  Weird how that works, so once more I still don't know how to prove yourself real.

As Gem says, who does the thinking?  What is a thought, why does it make me any more real than the passing notice of an entity or the whim of ones awareness?

How can I prove my thoughts are real?

I'm just trying to plumb how much people question their reality.  Most never go beyond their thoughts as validation.

But see, that is exactly what I'm getting at: what is the difference between the perfect illusion of a thing, and the thing actually being so?  There is no difference.

The perfect simulation of "existence" is no different than existence.  The perfect illusion of a tree, is no different than an actual tree.  If the creator knows all things, all potentials, then all potentials are real.  Because the knowingness, or simulation of experience, is perfect down to the finest detail.  I'm just trying to point out the threshold, beyond which the distinction is not apparent, and therefore completely arbitrary.

To play devils advocate for a moment, say your thoughts are fake.  What is the difference between fake and real?  If there is no difference, why worry about the distinction?  From my vantage point, if you have no barometer for unreal, than by default, things are real.  Real and unreal are relative to one another.  Without the relativity, there can be no distinction. 

Quantum Mechanics is my barometer, your absence of separation is commendable but by your own words, separation is very real then.

Hence, I literally do not comprehend how you ignore your own logic to make your own logic work.

In my view we are real, what is fake is simply how you define what you are. As long as you think of yourself in other ways than being the OIC in your "room of nothingness" dreaming of your senses and body, then you are grounded within the illusions you set yourself to experience. The human ego in itself as an identity is born from the meeting of body, mind and spirit. What you are as a human will be as long as you live, then everything that makes you will carry on their respective evolution with their share of the experience, the soul being the furthest one in it's path. A mind/spirit/body complex in a way is just a mind-like spirit/body-like spirit/spirit complex. There's just awareness, there's just soul, there's just the OIC, there's just us. Your body in itself is a world of which you are the God, you can either take good care of it or destroy it, both scenarios offer catalyst to what makes it up.

The basic nature of your awareness that simply is, is the very thing that is real and the very thing that is making up everything around you. There is only awareness taking upon itself identity, this identity is fake because our true essence is that of infinite potential which is not limited to a strand of experience in itself like we are. The state of infinite potential is reached in-between every octaves when one rejoins with the Source and let go on his past experiences and identity to become what we truly are, which is the potential to become anything and everything.

I disagree with a notion that an illusion can believe it is real, an awareness can believe it is something within illusion and define wrongly what it is.

So basically I as myself dont really exist but am real...???

At least your reasoning is sensible but my comprehension lacks perceiving how this proves to yourself that you're real beyond admitting you're made up of real parts you can't ascertain to be real or not and just assume or believe.

As for your last sentence.  You negate your entire point in my view with it, because to me, you are illusion, as am I.  If I follow your logic at the very end, you're basically assuming all you've said without knowing if it and you are real but assuming a mechanic of both operating?

I'm confused overall by you at times Min.
But you make me really want to do shrooms to see what you see.

I disagree with a notion that an illusion can believe it is real, an awareness can believe it is something within illusion and define wrongly what it is.

Exactly.  The experiencer cannot be the experience.  The creator is the backdrop of the created.  Awareness is the creator.

Or like it is described in quantum mechanics, the observer that makes reality remain coherent. Each of us is an observer, but ultimately we all are the very same Observer.

I tend to call the OIC, the One Infinite Dreamer because of this notion. We are not fake, we are dreaming of our reality.

I can see this but wish I had a say as an eyeball where I'm pointed at.

I thought Ra said that Creator is the Creation.

Actually it was:

13.5 Questioner: Thank you. Can you tell me of the earliest, first known thing in the creation?

Ra: I am Ra. The first known thing in the creation is infinity. The infinity is creation.

Well, you are right IGW, the creator is the creation.  But we are dealing with abstract concepts here.  The creator is the creation in the exact same way that a mirror is reflecting your image.  The appearance is not the reality.  You could say that you are it, but what you see with your bodily senses is a distorted (inverted) reflection of your essence as creator.  The "eye" cannot actually see itself, only a reflection of itself.  This is why, in my opinion, the 8th density is eternal mystery.  The essence of the creator is unquantifiable.  Beingness cannot be "known".  Only the creations of the mind can be "known".  Knowing is a function of mind.  There is a reality beyond mind, and that is 8th density, or pure spirit.  What you see reflected, in the mirror of mind, is matter, which can be known and quantified.  

But awareness is the backdrop of all existence.  I'm not sure if I'm making this clear, but that is how I see things.  The reflection is subject to the reflectee.  And the reflector (which would be akin to the mind) just reflects things, as per its nature.  "Will" comes from the spirit.

I guess I'll reiterate.  How do you know or prove you're not the reflection, not just an image who being exactly the same in all perceivable ways, isn't just an image, disappearing as quickly as it appeared?

I don't really care if this is illusion and I am but a dancing thought. At least I can experience.

I'm glad you're positive about it.  I'm tired of experiencing.

Just a contemplation I had recently.

Anyone wish to share how they can prove they're real?

The answer I was given to "what is real?" merely added to my own confusion at the time...

Remember Everything Always Love.

Other than that I suggest you pinch yourself, because I cannot prove that it hurts 

I can, it involves noticing how one degrades with pain.
Of any style, physical, mental, emotional, spiritual.

Its not diversion, its destruction.

When its enjoyed, obviously the being has inflicted enough pain to find its return pleasant as well.

Real to me is the ability to question it.  If I can't question it, how could it be real...for me individually?
Others see something beyond real and flock to it like flies to a light (no insult intended!!!)
I question it.  Thats how I define and believe.  But I like going further than questioning once.

Yes, air is real, can't see it but its there.  Are my guides real?  Intuition pings back yes, my synchronicity says yes.  Ieven am terrified after this incarnation ends itll all be just a joke somehow like oh yeah I was Joe and I didn't know anything and it drove me mad LOL

So I question, and honestly, hope at death I disappear and whatever I am continues on haunted by me.  I hope it learns more than it bargained for.

Because I, am not, that.  And so far, no one here has offered anything I see as means to view I and that as the same IN THIS PLACE (3D).  Until I do, I think my soul might need to be taught a lesson about putting 3D life through hell.

How to do that?  Dunno.  Its not a bargain, its an effect to a cause.

That is how I understand Reality, there is an effect to a cause.  The effect creates the cause.

Its backwards.  Reality like society, is backwards.

Actually, how do you define not being real?

The opposite way I define being real.

Which is being questionable.  If it isn't in a way that can produce answers as to effect and cause, why should I believe its real?  How do I define its reality when I can't?  I know its unperceivable? That's enough to know its something, I believe Ra is real, as well as octave settings and systems of intelligent creation.

Because they are in a sense, questionable but proveable.

Now I'm sure there's something real and unquestionable.  My opinion on those, you haven't thought of the question or all questions are known and answered that currently need to be.

How do you know a really really real hallucination wasnt actually real?

Does an LSD trip make you experience unreality or is it just illusion caused by some mechanical occurrences of the real?

If real can produce illusions which appear as real as reality, what is actually real or illusion? How do you know?
I'm not speaking of The Matrix tier nonsense, I'm speaking philosophical tier nonsense (I mean, what is sense?)

If illusion is as good as real, what is real?

to OP;
There is a secret you hold
that can not be proven or told
the secret is that you are where you are
and not in a cat, dog or star...

According to images of the Universe which may or may not be real (self reality pun, ba dum tish)

I'm inside of a neuron in a cosmic brain.

Isis: since my quote button has failed me and I'm not fighting my.mobile browser anymore.

I think it is possible to prove something is real, just impossible to prove that your proof is also real.

I wonder where I go in my sleep.  Why I cease and must return, why dreams are better than reality.  Is my awareness even real? Or is it like Min said, just an occurrence from partial things creating something more?

Aion, your pain can still be illusion, even if it feels real.

Also I seriously would shot the person who came up with that game.  What a great way to bully..  .

(That only took 3 hours to write)

I think you would greatly benefit from a read of the book. 'Projection of the Astral Body' by Sylvan Muldoon and Harewood Carrington, it actually has some answers to these exact questions with some very compelling evidence.

I think your problem is the way you define 'real'. It seems you are equating 'real' with 'truthful' and in that case I don't think it is possible to 'prove' something is real without first denying it the opposite.

I'd like to turn it around and ask if you can prove that anything is not real? I mean proof, not 'reasoning'. Logic doesn't prove anything. Questioning is just an exercise in logic, so questioning doesn't to me establish the reality of something. What may be apparent unquestionable to one may still be very questionable to another so that's hard for me to base reality on.

Also, we can talk about pain being illusory but the experience of it is real. So maybe the issue is that you don't think experience is real? I can assure you, it's hard to argue the truth of reality with a fist flying towards your face. The point isn't about pain, it's about contact.

Now, one can say it's an illusion, but your logic is thus also an illusion so you are using illusory logic to illusively illustrate an illusory illusion you are experiencing based on your illusory selve's understanding of its illusory self. So, you cannot actually prove it is an illusion anymore than you can prove it is 'real'. You can only reason.

So, with both sides defeated, what dictates reality? The fact that it's still right there. Go ahead and disbelieve it, see it as illusion and refute it, but it is rather persistent. If you ask me, the question isn't whether or not things are real but whether or not you perceive them as real, I think that's the actual difference in experience.

For me, I can see it both ways, so I conclude that 'real' and 'illusory' are likely just a duality that is obscuring the true unified nature. I think the truth is some weird combination of both, a paradox to be sure.

Also, fisticuffs is just a funny way of saying a fist-fight. Why don't you want to fight if everything is illusory? Why is an experience of peace more important than conflict in a state of illusion? Why use illusion to avoid illusion? If I'm not real and you're not real then there is no actual pain and no actual harm. If nothing is real, why fear the pain?

I think the best proof we have for being real is the fear we experience when we consider that we're not.

[AnthroHeart]

My self awareness validates the fact that I AM.  To me, it is intrinsic, and undeniable.  I mean, can you really doubt that you are AWARE?  And is not awarenes the very epitome of existence itself?  Be objective here, don't argue just for arguments sake.  I'm really perplexed why this isn't apparent.  

I am God. That is why I am real.

[The_Tired_Philosopher]

Quantum Mechanics is my barometer, your absence of separation is commendable but by your own words, separation is very real then.

Hence, I literally do not comprehend how you ignore your own logic to make your own logic work.

And I don't understand what you mean when you say "quantum physics is my barometer".  How does quantum physics prove whether you, or anything for that matter, is real or not?

I guess I'll reiterate.  How do you know or prove you're not the reflection, not just an image who being exactly the same in all perceivable ways, isn't just an image, disappearing as quickly as it appeared?

I wasn't arguing for whether I was permanent or impermanent.  I thought we were determining if one was real or not (like as in: does one really exist).  And for me, it is not even a question, so it kind of boggles my mind.  From my perspective the fact that I do indeed exist is the most fundamental and obvious thing in my consciousness.  My self awareness validates the fact that I AM.  To me, it is intrinsic, and undeniable.  I mean, can you really doubt that you are AWARE?  And is not awarenes the very epitome of existence itself?  Be objective here, don't argue just for arguments sake.  I'm really perplexed why this isn't apparent.  

(pre-edit: I honestly thought I had a shorter answer, sorry Anagogy!)

It's not that quantum physics itself is how I judge what is or is not real, it's more like, quantum physics make me realize that 'real' is more than observation but also design.  It is by design an atom falls into place when observed by a being, so it can fall into any type of arrangement depending on what views it potentially, it's a shot in the dark with wild potentials.

I actually really really like your response, because it so perfectly makes me realize why we don't match up in terms of this subject.  I question my self awareness.  My perceptions are controlled by senses, what is a sense?  How do my eyes distort what is actually in front of me?  How do my ears pick up what they do?  How does my nose shape input to relay it to my brain?

Why are I even thinking?  Reality to me is illusive, it is almost like an illusion, it often times doesn't even feel real.  To me I know I am aware, but...I also know that I'm ONLY aware of literally a Fraction of what is potentially happening ALL AROUND ME.

I doubt my self awareness as anything beyond informed, I am self-aware but not AWARE.  Hence I doubt just how really self aware I am, and thus must doubt all that I know, from the simple premise that in all honesty, as my fingers relay input to my brain that I feel keys being clicked, as my mind formulates the chain of single concepts into formulated sentences and paragraphs, as my eyes re-read and my ears listen, I understand this is all MY reality, it is small, it is tiny and it is so distorted I can even question if it's real at all or just an image, a simulation (so poignantly put, a 'simulacrum') or a real life manifested dream of a fever dream/fantasy.

This is all inside of a moment, how real truly is it?  Does awareness prove existence?

To me, I see quantum physics implies design, design implies intelligence, intelligence implies creator, creator implies something more.  If the Creator is Infinite, then how is the One Infinite Creator not literally One Infinite Creator of Infinite One Infinite Creators?  What is real or illusion might not matter, they might be the same.

But if they aren't, that'd be a good knowledge to pull forward with in this vehicle of mine I call a body.  Pulling me forward everywhere, with me pushing it.  Is the body real?  The personality real?  The thoughts real?

Is it like asking the question with a premise: I think therefore I am, what Am I?  Because I'd answer to that, you are Alive.

I wouldn't say being alive proves you're real but I also cannot disprove that being alive proves you're real objectively (just subjectively), so I'm left approaching a subjective-objective conclusion.  I think therefore I am because I am Alive because I am Real.  I could see how this would be more than enough.  I however see no death, only life, but also illusion in that life, so what is real in regards to thinking?

AI think.  They disappear when you turn off the program and sit in potentiation awaiting for it to turn back on, you could argue if they experience any 'cut' in awareness between these off states or if everything to them is fluid and uninterrupted because their awareness doesn't register the absence of awareness (which allows for some really interesting existence may I just say from writing a book using that mechanism).

How is reality not exactly the same, turning off without us ever knowing and coming back on in say, a frequent interval which creates the frames per second effect that to this day, scientists have no idea how the brain pieces together images into a fluid picture, when reality is just static images moving no different from a movie (which is why camera's need to record at 32 fps or else you get skipping or 'laggy' pictures).  (32 belongs to the Binary count of on/off by the way, that 24 fps skips but 32 creates fluid motion might mean reality flickers at a specific interval beyond our perception, who knows, I don't!  Or maybe it's just filming nerdetry on my part...)

We're a bit more complex than AI, you could call us NI, Natural Intelligence, same premise exists.  AI think.  NI think.  Are they that different?

I guess in a single sentence:  My awareness may itself not be truly real, so I observe in a fractal universe that too might be as I am, real or not real.  I question my awareness, not many do that.  It's not a rabbit hole, it's a black hole.

Quantum Physics to me is a barometer simply in that, it explains the way the mechanics of reality work 'overall' as I get it so far, it is so questionable that finding answers in it defines the ENTIRE Reality you live in and upon.  Even if that too is fake, the implications of it point to very 'real' possibilities.  If Quantum Physics can be proven to be uniquely affected by everyone slightly differently, you'd have in my opinion, proof of the Law of One's manner of explanation, every individual vibration in it's perfect infinite uniqueness affects everything around it in the same way, evolving constantly new forms and such in reality itself which being observed by uniqueness also must react uniquely.

I find it really fascinating how we have polar opposite feelings but still come to similar conclusions.  This talk of illusion/reality helps me relax for some reason.

And...I've been getting told this by a few, that I'm 'arguing'.  I am just prodding but I don't mean to argue, I really in all honesty want to bridge my understand...OR maybe I should say, find a way to bridge your understanding to my own, so that I can find out if I'm floating around in Imaginationville on Cloud12 in the Fifth Third Layer of Hell inside the Eleventh Ninth Heaven, or if my thoughts make some viable sense to others in a way that lets me know they're not my brain positing imagination upon my awareness tricking me into thinking 'nothingness is all'.  (That I can say my brain can trick my awareness of itself makes me question what else my brain messes me up on lol)

You could say I'm reaching out trying to find some explanation that resonates with me that isn't where I am right now... Because where I am right now has me questioning my entire way of being as is without question.  And may I say, absolute omnidirectional judgment of all as empty.
While it feels right, and I do not mean it in an empty sense but a all comes from and returns to nothing, it also feels...Dirty...  I don't have any other word to make sense of it for anyone.  I just don't feel right finding things these ways.  And they are my personal take which makes me even a bit more distraught...  I want to change that but I'm so intellectually inclined, had Work in Consciousness not produced results last year, I would literally not be here or believe in the Law of One.  That I could reproduce what was said would happen, tells me there's reality and truth here, in the simple aspect of I don't know what reality is, my general observations and beliefs that have painted my picture of reality lend/lead me to believe this is real, performing the Ra Material as laid out in Carla's book Living the LOO has reproduced results that I personally doubted, disproving my doubts.

Now I personally doubt all of existence including such.  With the only proof being I cannot determine any proof or truth at all with my placement.  Essentially, I am literally, in the dark, without being in the dark.  (And it's a light eating darkness friend, I 'argue' because I am grasping without even a candlelight it feels like.  I get eternity, I have this odd sticky belief that eternity exists as the 'absence of', and not the 'fulfillment/totality of' allowing for beyond absence of to exist at all, no limits or dimensions, just emptiness allowing infinity and all the illusions of design and construct that come with it.)

PLUS, with this subject, it is very subjective, another reason I like to push my thoughts onto others, they usually push back and I get some real insight into a different angle.  I don't mean any harm, I'm just trying to...Grow up.  

If illusion is as good as real, what is real?

Awareness is real, it is the dreamer. Experience, identity and such are the dream. You can call them fake, but outside these illusions lie only nothingness. Through these illusions we learn to become what is not nothing, we learn to know what we become under infinite circumstances and causes and effects.

Each of us is the OIC experiencing being away from itself. Upon entering the game and through experience we create distortions or rather resistance to our true self, and as such we avoid in infinite ways going back to it(ending the game). This is so until it is all worked off and we become once again in awareness what we always are. When the dream of an Octave ends, the experience is harvested and brings forth a new experience within the upper level which in turns will permit for newer experiences to be in the Octave from which it was harvested.

We live and exist within illusions, but that is because will is very real. There was a will for something greater than nothingness, there was a will to be, there was a will to not be alone, there was a will to be love and be loved. If everything was a 100% fake, then there would be nothing. Even if we are thoughts, thoughts imply a thinker. Just like you can think about being things and create them, it was thought to be you and the experience of it was created. All experiences lead to the same place, to the Source, to the Intelligent Infnity. The Source is the One experiencing all, it is the One who is truly alone and wants to dream that it is not so and create myriads of illusions to experience it not being so.

I have had a...vivid fantasy once when I was really blazed that the Infinite Creator found itself just existent, and discovered through infinity that there is no One Infinite Creator, just the infinite OIC's all around it, and in the myriad of emotions devised and created the Law of One as the ultimate loving gift to Creation, All is One, the OIC is you, that's why it's initials mimic the phrase, Oh! I See!

This response brought that fantasy right back into my mind, it wouldn't be a cruel reality, it'd just be real.  Infinity is infinite, there is no end, so there is no 'one' One Infinite Creator, it's just the many One's who are each The One, nothing is better or worse than another.

But then that ignores the multilayered explanations from higher dimensional entities and NDE reports.

Your last post makes me feel pretty conscious about my feelings of isolation and loneliness.  I almost constantly wonder weekly why I am experiencing this all alone, I'm more than a little sure my mom is my soul mate this time around (or she's literally a humanoid God with her patience towards me ) so.  But for how long that explanation satisfies me, I'unno. I hate missing past relationships or my current girlfriend, or both at the friggen same time (yelling at my own brain. )

My faith in an OIC is not waivering or faulty, I am by belief in no god beyond the OIC who is all of us, by definition of not believing in a 'higher deity' an athiest (or maybe I'm technically Agnostic since I believe in a God just not like the one presented) but basically put, this is me trying to make sense of my faith and who I am and my opinions.

I cannot do that alone, and I am often very, very alone in the night.

So I come here and ask y'all, because you're the loveliest nicest crowd to put up with my madness and not tell me to get lost!!!  

(Oh! I see there's new replies)

Aion: I imagine it's more easy than you'd think to glaze over into flaccid acceptance of oncoming 'reality' just as it is against oncoming 'illusion'. They feel the same, to you, you might find reality in that pain. To me, I find illusion in pain. It is so undesired and wanted, it simply can't be actual, but because it is, this must not be real overall. (Notice the complete absence of logic involved, I did.)
I recognize Fisticuffs as an old elementary school game where a kid would challenge you to 'fisticuffs' and you would put your fists together, and try to hit the top of each other's fists. Much black and blue and busted blood vessels occurred. Not a fan.

I have never actually been in a fist fight, and honestly, if I ever am I have no intent of defending myself. Even if access to a weapon, I'm more of a runner and a hider. I don't like to fight for one simple reason. I find it stupid. If people have to use their fists to resolve a dispute over something they ONLY JUST disagree on and continue doing so repeatedly, I'd like to shot both of them right in the face and continue life on Earth without them. The times have changed. If you're being attacked, well it can't be helped but if you just want things YOUR WAY. You need a bullet put in your brain to show you just how well that works when you get into a system of players all doing just that to get their way. That's my understanding of violence anyways, the path leads to constant violence leading up war and murder continually. I'll gladly step into the shoes of a monster who gets rid of monsters if I had the power to do so with little resistance (License to Kill and access to Government tier tech and equipment). But I don't, and never will, so I leave that pair of shoes somewhere in the deep dark where I can't even find them, and chances are, they are illusion and not even real, just figments of my wild imagination. I hope it stays that way. I'm not one to pull a Lelouch from Code Geass (and if you haven't seen Code Geass, greatness awaits to be known by you.)

I've great qualms with violence. Closest I ever got to a fist fight was jumping on a kid in elementary school. Then a small argument with a kid in high school who got mad over something I don't even remember, maybe it was some side-remark to something funny he said because the entire scenarios is just blurry to me now... I think you could probably see that in how angry I get at the mentioning of it. (Really makes me want to pull a Dexter...But I won't, can't, and don't actually physically in reality want to. I just want all of that stuff to LEAVE ME ALONE.)

You could prove something isn't real logically explaining how and why it is not real.

A virtual banana made in a video game isn't real, you can make it disappear and reappear almost at your whim, give or take how much the creator (machine that plays the game) properly functions without issue. Monsters like Slenderman aren't real (I hope). Cthulu isn't real. Superman isn't real.

In my reality at least. Some people apparently stab others because Slenderman asked them to. Others think the infamous ocean Bloop is Cthulu. Some people think Superman is real in another dimension or highly distant parallel universe.

I overall agree with you too, I'm glad you've brought this line of reasoning up (I love sentences like this too): "Now, one can say it's an illusion, but your logic is thus also an illusion so you are using illusory logic to illusively illustrate an illusory illusion you are experiencing based on your illusory selve's understanding of its illusory self. So, you cannot actually prove it is an illusion anymore than you can prove it is 'real'. You can only reason."

I actually think this is very inspiring in the single implication involved with it.

Reasoning isn't proof of Reality, if we are illusion then we would never know it until it were made known to us by a higher/outside source.

Sounds like a great negation though... It obscures the entire possibility of ever knowing anything, enforcing just the knowledge that you know nothing truly.

Thank y'all. Good stuff to process over. Thank you everyone for helping me get out of this 'what's real' funk I've been in.

[Aion]

Oh, yeah, I proved I am real to myself by dying. After experiencing illusory death, I was still there, simply silent, empty, infinite and eternal. Awareness in the Void. I now know that is the self within me but it isn't actually a 'self', it is simply an essence which my existence here is the presence of.

Thus, I am real because I am present and because I am present I must have an essence which underlies that presence and that essence must be able to exist infinitely because it is not actually contained and so is not subject to movement and so lacks any discernable features except that it IS and this is what is real. What is real is silent, unmoving and absolute potential. The moment it moves, it becomes distortion, illusion.

The thing is is that I believe it never moves and the illusion we are is not that it is moving but the fact that it is present with itself. Thus, what is 'line of focus' from potential to potential. What is kinetic is thus temporal. This is, I believe, the real understanding behind the Buddhist Maya or Illusion. The reason things are illusory is because they are temporary. What is permanent is infinite potential.

Everything you see, hear and and experience is illusory, kinetic, but everything you are is real, silent, potential, infinite.

[Aion]

Oh, also, can I just express the great irony that your actual choice to deal with a fist-fight would be to SHOOT them. You would actually respond to violence with worse violence? How does that lessen the violence in the world? So you'd shoot people because you yourself feel uncomfortable with physical altercation? If that isn't some broken logic, I don't know what is. I know you say you would not actually do that, I just want you to really consider how that is your conclusion and if you're not actually just shooting yourself in the foot with this line of reasoning?

Have you maybe considered that not everyone is as attached to reason and thinking as you are and indeed not everyone has the capacity of awareness for such subtle, abstract thought as you? It seems to me like you don't even want to attempt to understand why someone would feel compelled to fight while also making a blanket judgement on the fact that they do?

To each his own, I don't know, but I would honestly say I think you have some kind of blockage surrounding conflict and 'bullying'. Not that I expect everyone to be a fighter, by all means I respect the path of the pacifist having followed it myself for a long time but my thoughts here aren't about pacifism or fighting, it's about fear.

[Aion]

My last thought is simply this. I know, for a fact, because I have experienced it, that there is a 'self' outside of the reason, logic, emotions and sensations we experience. There is a presence which dwells everywhere, always, and its essence is immutable. It cannot be described even with awareness for it is that which awareness is drawn from. Silent, still, unmoving, infinite potential.

You may ask, how do I know I've experienced this? That's because since then I have not stopped experiencing it. It has no features other than the fact that it is there. I recognize it simply by the fact of its presence and I know that it is what I am because its presence is also my presence and its essence also my essence. If I am infinite potential, then I must be real, even if all that comes from that potential is illusory.

[Spaced]

I didn't read all the responses in this thread (the old attention span ain't what it used to be) but I find myself wondering how could I prove to myself that I'm real unless the person I am trying to prove it to (myself) is real? Otherwise what value would the proof have?

I dunno, my advice would be don't think too hard about it. You're here having experiences, or at least you think you are and at the end of the day what's the difference?

[The_Tired_Philosopher]

Oh, also, can I just express the great irony that your actual choice to deal with a fist-fight would be to SHOOT them.

I said I wouldn't actually, it's just the first feeling I get when subjected to violence in person and not in person.  There is a very real part of me that definitely feels hatred towards violence enough to walk in hypocrisy and desire to snuff it out.  Akin to wanting to destroy half the planet in a Nazi Genocide against Monsters and Ass Holes, followed by a prompt self-murder of the last monster left once the rest are gone, being myself...  You should watch the ending of Code Geass, it sums up my desire somewhat plainly enough what with everything else that happens in that anime.

But, IN REALITY (not MY MIND), my first response is to GET AWAY.  The addition of a desire to snuff it out further screams at me to just get away.

I don't want murder on my belt.  That I do it in my mind and half my life in video games is good enough for me.  I don't want to be murdered, I don't want to murder thusly so.

But when I see someone getting beaten down, I do want to murder.  I just have the mental faculties to know that desire is a big screwy can of worms that I intentionally plan to die over not opening if I must.

I can't make that more clear.  If I were put in that position of two people strapped to a chair with a gun pointing at each other and the option to kill the other person to live, I'd just resign myself to death.

I don't even want to kill in self defense, it's why I don't own a gun, or even a defense knife.  It's why I want to learn martial arts and not how to shoot a gun.

I just figure, be honest.  It's you guys.  Yes, violence makes me respond mentally in my mind with MORE VIOLENCE, fight the fire with a bigger fire and burn it all down! The way the world ends.

Of course that's my first thought, I don't have the living experience to know firsthand the utter horror that comes with murder, or the living experience to know patience with cruel violence. I'm a naive idiot my friend.