Why I am not a vegan

[Diana]

Article on the UN's recommendation here:
UN recommends meat-free diet

A global shift towards a vegan diet is vital to save the world from hunger, fuel poverty and the worst impacts of climate change, a UN report said today.

As the global population surges towards a predicted 9.1 billion people by 2050, western tastes for diets rich in meat and dairy products are unsustainable, says the report from United Nations Environment Programme's (UNEP) international panel of sustainable resource management.

It says: "Impacts from agriculture are expected to increase substantially due to population growth increasing consumption of animal products. Unlike fossil fuels, it is difficult to look for alternatives: people have to eat. A substantial reduction of impacts would only be possible with a substantial worldwide diet change, away from animal products."

Professor Edgar Hertwich, the lead author of the report, said: "Animal products cause more damage than [producing] construction minerals such as sand or cement, plastics or metals. Biomass and crops for animals are as damaging as [burning] fossil fuels."

The recommendation follows advice last year that a vegetarian diet was better for the planet from Lord Nicholas Stern, former adviser to the Labour government on the economics of climate change. Dr Rajendra Pachauri, chair of the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), has also urged people to observe one meat-free day a week to curb carbon emissions.

... [see rest of article in above link]

[The_Tired_Philosopher]

As far as I know, the UN also wants depopulate Earth down to about 500 million. So why are they pulling this huge switcharoo on their desires so suddenly?

I say 500 Mil based on assumption of Agenda 21 meets the Georgia Standing Stones inscriptions.

[indolering]

Becoming a vegetarian accords with the UN's push for so-called sustainability.  But it will have no effect upon the elimination of most of humanity.  

See my post in the Grand Conspiracy thread (post #277) for a more detailed explanation of the UN's agenda for the world.

http://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthrea...#pid194839 

[The_Tired_Philosopher]

I know that heh.  Between vaccinations, GMO's, and the various toxic materials we interact with constantly alongside a lot of heavy metal particles from chem trails spells a sudden inexplicable onset of vast types of Cancer, birth defects leading into infertility, and ultimately many will die naturally while many others die from the continued wars.

I'm a mad man tinfoil hat wearing fool too!  Though I don't normally say anything in person...  I've already annoyed enough people with it, now I just sort of stick to mainstream things to try and show my friends a different way of thinking.  (I don't think it works at all since my facebook is also heavily censored so most people don't see anything I post.)

Though I'm still pondering if the Sphere Being Alliance articles are true or distortions of truth or just more lies.

Where have you guys found so many Cayce quotes?? I've enjoyed the few things I've read, is there a compilation?

[Jade]

I'm a little baffled that anyone is suspicious of promotion of veganism... that it might be evilly influenced? As opposed to the alternative? 

People are suspicious because the UN may want to kill 6 billion humans, but we do kill twice as many animals for food each year? What about the freewill of those humans who incarnated to be part of depopulation plans?

As far as Edgar Cayce goes, he wrote many books and has had many written about him. He's one of the last century's greatest mystics. He's a large part of the breadcrumb trail that led me to the Ra material.

[Diana]

There is undoubtedly a "negative elite" and it makes sense that the UN would either knowingly or unknowingly be an extension of it. Disinformation is always a combination of truth and lies. It's unfortunate that many may see the UN's suggestions only through the lens of this negative agenda, and use that to discredit the good ideas presented such as becoming a vegetarian culture—not through force but through assistance and encouragement. 

"Nothing will benefit human health and increase the chances for survival of life on earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet."—Albert Einstein

"Truely man is the king of beasts, for his brutality exceeds theirs. We live by the death of others: we are burial places! I have from an early age abjured the use of meat, and the time will come when men such as I will look upon the murder of animals as they now look upon the murder of men."—Leonardo Da Vinci

"I hold that the more helpless a creature, the more entitled it is to protection by man from the cruelty of man"—Mohandas Gandhi

"In fact, if one person is unkind to an animal it is considered to be cruelty, but where a lot of people are unkind to animals, especially in the name of commerce, the cruelty is condoned and, once large sums of money are at stake, will be defended to the last by otherwise intelligent people"—Ruth Harrison

"We have enslaved the rest of animal creation and have treated our distant cousins in fur and feathers so badly that beyond doubt, if they were to formulate a religion, they would depict the Devil in human form."—William Ralph Inge

"I became a vegan the day I watched a video of a calf being born on a factory farm. The baby was dragged away from his mother before he hit the ground. The helpless calf strained its head backwards to find his mother. The mother bolted after her son and exploded into a rage when the rancher slammed the gate on her. She wailed the saddest noise I’d ever heard an animal make, and then thrashed and ...dug into the ground, burying her face in the muddy placenta. I had no idea what was happening respecting brain chemistry, animal instinct, or whatever. I just knew that this was deeply wrong. I just knew that such suffering could never be worth the taste of milk and veal. I empathized with the cow and the calf and, in so doing, my life changed."—James McWilliams

"Could you look an animal in the eyes and say to it, 'My appetite is more important than your suffering'?"—Moby

"For as long as men massacre animals, they will kill each other. Indeed, he who sows the seed of murder and pain cannot reap joy and love."—Pythagoras

"I will not kill or hurt any living creature needlessly, nor destroy any beautiful thing, but will strive to save and comfort all gentle life, and guard and perfect all natural beauty upon the earth."—John Ruskin

"The human spirit is not dead. It lives on in secret.....It has come to believe that compassion, in which all ethics must take root, can only attain its full breadth and depth if it embraces all living creatures and does not limit itself to mankind."—Albert Schweitzer

"A man can live and be healthy without killing animals for food; therefore, if he eats meat, he participates in taking animal life merely for the sake of his appetite. And to act so is immoral."—Leo Tolstoy

"Perhaps in the back of our minds we already understand, without all the science I've discussed, that something terribly wrong is happening. Our sustenance now comes from misery. We know that if someone offers to show us a film on how our meat is produced, it will be a horror film. We perhaps know more than we care to admit, keeping it down in the dark places of our memory-- disavowed. When we eat factory-farmed meat we live, literally, on tortured flesh. Increasingly, that tortured flesh is becoming our own."—Jonathan Safran

"Animal lovin’ ain’t shovin’ ‘em in the oven."—Durianrider

[Diana]

Famous vegetarians, considered to be among the smartest people in the world (then and now):

1. Sir Isaac Newton, “the father of physics.”

2. Leonardo Da Vinci, physicist and artist who made important discoveries in hydraulics, optics, and mechanics.  He was so fervent about vegetarianism, he would buy caged chickens and set them free.

3. Srinivasa Ramanujan, one of the greatest mathematicians of the past 1,000 years.

4. Nikola Tesla, helped devise the AC (alternating current) electrical system used to power modern civilization.  He lived on custom-ordered, meat-free meals at the Waldorf-Astoria Hotel.  Regarding the benefits of vegetarianism he wrote:

On general principles the raising of cattle as a means of providing food is objectionable. It is certainly preferable to raise vegetables, and I think, therefore, that vegetarianism is a commendable departure from the established barbarian habit. That we can subsist on plant food and perform our work even to advantage is not a theory but a well-demonstrated fact. Many races living almost exclusively on vegetables are of superior physique and strength. There is no doubt that some plant food, such as oatmeal, is more economical than meat, and superior to it in regard to both mechanical and mental performance. Such food, moreover, taxes our digestive organs decidedly less, and in making us more contented and sociable, produces an amount of good difficult to estimate. In view of these facts every effort should be made to stop the wanton, cruel slaughter of animals, which must be destructive to our morals.

5. Thomas Edison, considered one of  the greatest inventors in history.  He wrote:

“[Vegetarianism has a] powerful influence upon the mind and its action, as well as upon the health and vigor of the body. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages.”

6. Albert Einstein, the greatest scientist of the 20th century, widely regarded as one of the most ingenious men of all time. On vegetarianism, he said:

“Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances for survival of life on Earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet.”

“Our task must be to [widen] our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty.”

And the day he became a vegetarian, he wrote in his diary:

“So I am living without fats, without meat, without fish, but am feeling quite well this way. It always seems to me that man was not born to be a carnivore.”

7. Edward Witten, viewed by many as Einstein’s successor, best known as the world’s foremost string theorist and mathematician. [my note: He is considered by other physicists to be so much smarter than them it makes them feel stupid.]

8. Brian Greene, Witten’s foremost protégé (he was on The Colbert Report last week).  He refuted Einstein’s theory that space can stretch but not tear, and by age nine, could multiply thirty-digit numbers in his head.  In an interview on science, morality, and vegetarianism for The Supreme Master Ching Hai News, Greene stated:

Q: Why do you think so many of the greatest geniuses have been vegetarian?

G: From my limited experience, vegetarians typically are people who are willing to challenge the usual, accepted order of things. Moreover, they’re often people willing to sacrifice their own pleasures in pursuit of what they believe is right. These same qualities are often what’s needed to make great breakthroughs in the arts and sciences.

Q: Why do you think other scientists are still not vegetarian?

G: I would ask, more generally, why the vast majority of people are not vegetarian. I think the answer is that most people don’t question the practice of eating meat since they always have. Many of these people care about animals and the environment, some deeply. But for some reason—force of habit, cultural norms, resistance to change—there is a fundamental disconnect whereby these feelings don’t translate into changes of behavior.

Q: What inspired you to become a vegetarian?

G: Quite literally, it was a dish—spare ribs—that my mother cooked when I was nine years old. The ribs made the connection between the meat and the animal from which it came direct; I was horrified and declared I’d never eat meat again. And I never have. Going vegan happened later. I visited an animal rescue farm in upstate New York and learned much about the dairy industry which was so disturbing that I could not continue to support it. Within days I gave up all dairy.

9. Alan Calverd, UK physicist who recently made headlines with the following statement about global warming and the vegetarian lifestyle:

“Adopting a vegetarian diet would do more for the environment than burning less oil and gas.”

[Monica]

I'm a little baffled that anyone is suspicious of promotion of veganism... that it might be evilly influenced? As opposed to the alternative? 

People are suspicious because the UN may want to kill 6 billion humans, but we do kill twice as many animals for food each year? What about the freewill of those humans who incarnated to be part of depopulation plans?

Exactly!

...

[Monica]

As far as I know, the UN also wants depopulate Earth down to about 500 million.  So why are they pulling this huge switcharoo on their desires so suddenly?

I say 500 Mil based on assumption of Agenda 21 meets the Georgia Standing Stones inscriptions.

The UN is a mixed bag, just like other institutions and the population overall.

I work in the medical field. I work with well-intentioned doctors and nurses every day. Yet I know that at its core, the pharmaceutical industry profits by keeping people sick. Does that mean those doctors and nurses I work with are corrupt too? No!

To say that the people who are part of the UN can't ever do anything good, is akin to saying that doctors and nurses can't do any good just because the pharmaceutical industry is corrupt. (I know you didn't say that...I'm just drawing an analogy.)

...

[Shemaya]

I'm a little baffled that anyone is suspicious of promotion of veganism... that it might be evilly influenced? As opposed to the alternative? 

People are suspicious because the UN may want to kill 6 billion humans, but we do kill twice as many animals for food each year? What about the freewill of those humans who incarnated to be part of depopulation plans?

Jade, I am not sure if you are referring to my comment or not.  I just said I had questions.   I question motives of UN leaders, especially after the bit of news I heard recently where Saudi Arabia was made the head of the human rights panel.  United Nations Farce: Saudi Arabia to Head UN Human Rights Council 

If they can't get human rights right, why should I trust them on sustainability.  I would not disagree that humans need to move towards a meat free diet.  I totally agree with that notion.

However, I think jumping from where we are now to veganism, (No domesticated animals, no farm animals, or animal husbandry ie. no dairy, no eggs ) might be tough.  We are talking about massive cultural change, asking for uniformity rather than acceptance of diversity in cultures and socioeconomic strata.  It's an exclusive viewpoint, which creates a yellow flag in my mind, when policies are made that would exclude certain groups of people.   And the interesting thing about the report is that also contained recommendation to decrease fossil fuel usage, however, I am finding it difficult finding information on that.  So one question is, why does "veganism" get all the press? Why can't the news report more on energy usage and moving to decentralized free energy, which would totally save the planet?  I think I know why, because I understand now how mass consciousness gets manipulated, but that's a topic for another thread.

The_Tired_Philosopher:

As far as I know, the UN also wants depopulate Earth down to about 500 million.  So why are they pulling this huge switcharoo on their desires so suddenly?


I say 500 Mil based on assumption of Agenda 21 meets the Georgia Standing Stones inscriptions.

TTP, that is totally incorrect.  Where the heck did you get that idea?  I have heard about the Georgia Guidestones, but they are not connected as far as the public knows to the UN's Agenda 21.  The guidestones are mysterious, we don't know who placed them.  So we don't really know who wants to depopulate the earth to 500 million.

[indolering]

I'm a little baffled that anyone is suspicious of promotion of veganism... that it might be evilly influenced? As opposed to the alternative?  

There are quite a few people who view vegans as fascist because of some of the tactics they have used to persuade others to stop eating animals.  I understand this.  Vegans and vegetarians should never use coercive or rude tactics to persuade people - it always backfires.

[Quotes of famous people}

Great quotes, Diana.  They can go a long way to convince people to consider their relationship to animals.

As far as I know, the UN also wants depopulate Earth down to about 500 million.  So why are they pulling this huge switcharoo on their desires so suddenly?

I say 500 Mil based on assumption of Agenda 21 meets the Georgia Standing Stones inscriptions.

The UN is a mixed bag, just like other institutions and the population overall.

I work in the medical field. I work with well-intentioned doctors and nurses every day. Yet I know that at its core, the pharmaceutical industry profits by keeping people sick. Does that mean those doctors and nurses I work with are corrupt too? No!

To say that the people who are part of the UN can't ever do anything good, is akin to saying that doctors and nurses can't do any good just because the pharmaceutical industry is corrupt. (I know you didn't say that...I'm just drawing an analogy.)

...

I agree, Monica.  Although the UN is definitely part of the New World Order agenda, there are likely many good people who work there.  But it is certain that the top echelon of UN administration are all puppets of the cabal.  It's analogous to the Masons which is essentially a corrupt organization, but most of the lower orders are ignorant of how their organization is being used to further an evil agenda.

TTP, that is totally incorrect.  Where the heck did you get that idea?  I have heard about the Georgia Guidestones, but they are not connected as far as the public knows to the UN's Agenda 21.  The guidestones are mysterious, we don't know who placed them.  So we don't really know who wants to depopulate the earth to 500 million.

It's true.  The satanists-in-charge want to reduce the population to about a billion or less.  These will be the people (slaves) necessary to keep things functioning.  The rest will be killed one way or another.  Apparently the cabal believes that less population will be easier to manage.

[Monica]

However, I think jumping from where we are now to veganism, (No domesticated animals, no farm animals, or animal husbandry ie. no dairy, no eggs ) might be tough. 

The world won't jump to veganism overnight, so it's a moot point. That is, unless/until they have No choice, which will surely happen in a few decades.

But with veganism as a goal, progress can be made.

...

[Shemaya]

However, I think jumping from where we are now to veganism, (No domesticated animals, no farm animals, or animal husbandry ie. no dairy, no eggs ) might be tough. 

The world won't jump to veganism overnight, so it's a moot point. That is, unless/until they have No choice, which will surely happen in a few decades.

But with veganism as a goal, progress can be made.

...

Worldwide veganism is the goal in a few decades?   All nations and all peoples?  No more backyard chickens for eggs? No more family cows providing milk/ dairy for the poor in the developing world? No more farm animals, extinction for all domestic livestock?  After all an animal who never lived is better off than one who lived on pasture, grazed daily on the land and was invested/ cared for by humans in exchange for milk.  No more manure, or bone meal for organic farms? Chemical fertilizer only? No more wool? 

I don't know, can't see it.

[indolering]

As much as I'd like to see the elimination of all exploitation of animals including domestication, I think Shemaya is probably more realistic in this regard.  I suspect many people will continue to use cows and chickens (at least) for their milk and eggs for some time to come.  I would certainly hope that animal slaughter will be condemned in a similar vein as the murder of humans.  Animal cruelty will be frowned upon and even outlawed as being too barbaric in a so-called enlightened age.  I also think that pets (dogs, cats, etc) will be with us in the future - I can't imagine such a practice will be proscribed - domestication of pets doesn't appear to have any victims.  Pets as such have been with humanity for a long, long time and people are quite fond of the practice.  Further, the domestication of these animals has already occurred, and both humans and pets seem content in the relationship.

[The_Tired_Philosopher]

As far as I know, the UN also wants depopulate Earth down to about 500 million.  So why are they pulling this huge switcharoo on their desires so suddenly?

I say 500 Mil based on assumption of Agenda 21 meets the Georgia Standing Stones inscriptions.

The UN is a mixed bag, just like other institutions and the population overall.

I work in the medical field. I work with well-intentioned doctors and nurses every day. Yet I know that at its core, the pharmaceutical industry profits by keeping people sick. Does that mean those doctors and nurses I work with are corrupt too? No!

To say that the people who are part of the UN can't ever do anything good, is akin to saying that doctors and nurses can't do any good just because the pharmaceutical industry is corrupt. (I know you didn't say that...I'm just drawing an analogy.)

...

I completely agree.  Same goes for police officers,military men, factory farmers, and even politicians.

I wasn't questioning the UN's decision, I was questioning the UN in practice.  So long as they don't force this through laws, I imagine it'll bring more good than bad.  Versus 'Do what we say, or else.'

Similarly to how I condemn the apathy of those who don't do anything about the tyranny of government or corporations but partake in them, similar to how some feel about nonvegans who Don't care, I am anxious plus worried about how its achieved more so than what is achieved.

How do you nonforcefully change how entire groups of people are?

Shemaya: I may be wrong about the connection, I surely can't prove it. Thus it is essentially, 'just', a belief of mine.

[Shemaya]

As far as I know, the UN also wants depopulate Earth down to about 500 million.  So why are they pulling this huge switcharoo on their desires so suddenly

.

.

How do you nonforcefully change how entire groups of people are?

Shemaya: I may be wrong about the connection,  I surely can't prove it.  Thus it is essentially, 'just', a belief of mine.

 
Ok TTP.   Sorry I was so harsh in my wording, I get a little fired up sometimes!

I think one of the best ways to change people is the free market.  Cut all subsidies to factory farms and the monoculture, agribusiness that feeds them.  Let the prices rise so that people make affordable plant- based choices.  Encourage small local farmers to do their work in an Eco- friendly way, ie Permaculture methods and state of the art sustainable practices via tax breaks or other support for sustainable practices which will help balance out the prices for organic, locally produced foods.


But this would require activists to demand legislative changes.  Most activists are hardliners who just want to change people who eat animal products and liberate the animals, so I don't know if there is any movement on the changes I am talking about.

To get people to change, they need education.  So we need lots of people passionate about growing food and teaching others about it, experts in the field.  It would be great, awesome to see this as a required school subject and teach our children in school.

It's a real learning curve to learn new ways to eat and cook and prepare foods, people are very particular about what they eat.

[The_Tired_Philosopher]

No worries I deserve any catalyst that comes my way, I can honestly admit that.

I also agree with your entire post, instead these changes you mention seem to occur against small businesses and organic growers, and legislation federally is a crapshoot with how Congress is.

Its why I seriously worry about America and the UN and the path they'll take.  I'm tired of this all, I see many others are too yet...  nothing is changed.

Makes me seriously ponder if voting does change things or if its a sly way of 'manipulative freedom', or some things majority wise pass and others against the elite view don't despite a majority vote.

Its worrisome to me.

[Minyatur]

Makes me seriously ponder if voting does change things or if its a sly way of 'manipulative freedom', or some things majority wise pass and others against the elite view don't despite a majority vote.

Democracy is a manipulation tool with the purpose of dividing the population.

[Monica]

Worldwide veganism is the goal in a few decades?   All nations and all peoples?  No more backyard chickens for eggs? No more family cows providing milk/ dairy for the poor in the developing world? No more farm animals, extinction for all domestic livestock?  After all an animal who never lived is better off than one who lived on pasture, grazed daily on the land and was invested/ cared for by humans in exchange for milk.  No more manure, or bone meal for organic farms? Chemical fertilizer only? No more wool? 

I don't know, can't see it.

Sorry, I will clarify: I meant to say world-wide plant-based diet, which isn't vegan but predominately vegetarian. Yes to backyard chickens and family cows and goats. But an end to the massively destructive meat industry as a whole.

It is mathematically impossible for the planet to sustain the human population past the turn of the century, unless most people switch to a plant-based diet and largely end the meat industry. But with a plant-based diet, the planet could sustain many orders of magnitude greater numbers of humans. So there will come a point at which humans (as a whole) won't have a choice.

...

[Monica]

As much as I'd like to see the elimination of all exploitation of animals including domestication, I think Shemaya is probably more realistic in this regard.  I suspect many people will continue to use cows and chickens (at least) for their milk and eggs for some time to come.  I would certainly hope that animal slaughter will be condemned in a similar vein as the murder of humans.  Animal cruelty will be frowned upon and even outlawed as being too barbaric in a so-called enlightened age.  I also think that pets (dogs, cats, etc) will be with us in the future - I can't imagine such a practice will be proscribed - domestication of pets doesn't appear to have any victims.  Pets as such have been with humanity for a long, long time and people are quite fond of the practice.  Further, the domestication of these animals has already occurred, and both humans and pets seem content in the relationship.

Please see my clarification above. No mention was made of pets. Pets aren't the problem except that they are fed other animals. More and more people are proving that dogs, and even cats, can thrive on a vegan diet. (I know, they are natural carnivores! Yet it is happening, amazingly!)

I assume you are referring to the 'no use of animals at all, ever, even pets' philosophy espoused by some vegans. Most vegans consider that extremist and don't agree with it. Most of us have pets and consider ourselves caretakers of these companion animals.

...

[Monica]

How do you nonforcefully change how entire groups of people are?

You don't. All we can do is raise awareness.

...

[Minyatur]

I wonder if it's harder for a meat eater to stomp his habits or for a vegan to realize it could provide better service to the animals and stomp it's repulsion of it.

[Shemaya]

Worldwide veganism is the goal in a few decades?   All nations and all peoples?  No more backyard chickens for eggs? No more family cows providing milk/ dairy for the poor in the developing world? No more farm animals, extinction for all domestic livestock?  After all an animal who never lived is better off than one who lived on pasture, grazed daily on the land and was invested/ cared for by humans in exchange for milk.  No more manure, or bone meal for organic farms? Chemical fertilizer only? No more wool? 

I don't know, can't see it.

Sorry, I will clarify: I meant to say world-wide plant-based diet, which isn't vegan but predominately vegetarian. Yes to backyard chickens and family cows and goats. But an end to the massively destructive meat industry as a whole.

It is mathematically impossible for the planet to sustain the human population past the turn of the century, unless most people switch to a plant-based diet and largely end the meat industry. But with a plant-based diet, the planet could sustain many orders of magnitude greater numbers of humans. So there will come a point at which humans (as a whole) won't have a choice.

...

Yay! So happy we agree!

I think UN should use the same language as you, plant-based diet.  Instead, they chose to say  "veganism"which is sure to stir up much resistance and therefore inhibit progress.  Good leadership would steer in the proper direction, knowing how to get the most support for their vision.  But I don't see the UN doing that with they way they are presenting their vision for sustainability.

Like TTP said,  rather than sustaining small organic farms and businesses, I think the ulterior motive is centralized, monopolistic food industry and uniformity, rather than being inclusive of diversity.  So that is why I don't trust it.

[indolering]

Shemaya

[quote pid='195092' dateline='1444138305']
.
Yay! So happy we agree!

I think UN should use the same language as you, plant-based diet.  Instead, they chose to say  "veganism"which is sure to stir up much resistance and therefore inhibit progress.  Good leadership would steer in the proper direction, knowing how to get the most support for their vision.  But I don't see the UN doing that with they way they are presenting their vision for sustainability.

Like TTP said,  rather than sustaining small organic farms and businesses, I think the ulterior motive is centralized, monopolistic food industry and uniformity, rather than being inclusive of diversity.  So that is why I don't trust it.
[/quote]


You have good reason not to trust the UN.  It's nothing but a tool for the NWO.  

See my post in the Grand Conspiracy thread, #277 for the latest bit of agenda being pushed by the UN.


http://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthrea...#pid194839 

http://www.activistpost.com/2015/09/un-l...print.html

[Monica]

Yay! So happy we agree!

Me too!

I think UN should use the same language as you, plant-based diet.  Instead, they chose to say  "veganism"which is sure to stir up much resistance and therefore inhibit progress.  Good leadership would steer in the proper direction, knowing how to get the most support for their vision.  But I don't see the UN doing that with they way they are presenting their vision for sustainability.

Like TTP said,  rather than sustaining small organic farms and businesses, I think the ulterior motive is centralized, monopolistic food industry and uniformity, rather than being inclusive of diversity.  So that is why I don't trust it.

You might be right about that, that they're intentionally giving lip service to it while simultaneously sabotaging real progress.

On the other hand, giving them the benefit of the doubt, it might just be that they don't know the difference in terms. They really just might not know the difference!

Even someone like me, who has been a vegetarian for decades, the term vegan has been changing. Until recently, I thought a vegan was a vegetarian who also didn't eat eggs or dairy, and didn't wear fur or leather. That was pretty much it. It wasn't until a few years ago that I learned that they didn't eat honey either. Ok, got it. That makes sense. But now, I am learning that many vegans also think that horseback riding is off limits, training service dogs is taboo, and some won't even have pets at all!

Those are most definitely the exceptions, the outer fringe. Most do have cats and dogs, and many have lots of cats and dogs because they love animals so much they take in lots of strays. I use the term for myself because, for most vegans, it simply means that we don't eat animal products, don't wear them, and do our best to avoid exploitation of animals in general. ('Do our best' because it's impossible to avoid 100%, because animal products are so insidious, and we all occasionally step on bugs without intending to.) It's gets fuzzy when one tries to define exploitation of animals. The more 'outer fringe' vegans think that means NO interaction with animals at all, and returning all animals to the wild. Most vegans, like myself, recognize that animals are companions, even family, so why not interact with them? Not to mention that it would be impossible to return domesticated animals to the wild!

So even among vegans, the definition of the label vegan is fuzzy. So it makes sense that people who aren't even vegan might get it wrong, just like there are still people out there who think vegetarians eat fish!

The term plant-based is a recent term, coined by the China Study doctors to encourage people to shift to a meatless, dairyless diet. It is essentially a vegan diet, but without the emotional charge or the controversy. Plus, it focuses on diet only. I agree that it's a much better choice in this case.

...

[Diana]

Even someone like me, who has been a vegetarian for decades, the term vegan has been changing. Until recently, I thought a vegan was a vegetarian who also didn't eat eggs or dairy, and didn't wear fur or leather. That was pretty much it. It wasn't until a few years ago that I learned that they didn't eat honey either. Ok, got it. That makes sense. But now, I am learning that many vegans also think that horseback riding is off limits, training service dogs is taboo, and some won't even have pets at all!

I think vegans in general are thinking, intelligent people, as is stated and shown in the quotes I posted above. There are those who may take it too far in tone, but perhaps we can cut them some slack. I remember seeing a show on PBS about animal testing. The "activists" filming had snuck into a lab and filmed the horror in there. A rabbit was contorted and spasming and trying to crawl across the floor, just left there to die in agony. The two "activists" filming were sobbing (as was I), but they did it because they wanted to raise awareness of what is actually going on. Can anyone blame them for being vehement about wanting to change it? I absolutely honor their courage, because I am too much of a coward to do something like that. My heart would break so badly I would want to die, just as that photographer did who photographed the starving child in Africa who collapsed a short way from the food wagon, then took his life.

I sort of fit into the description above, though I am not rigid or do anything because I am "a vegan." I don't eat honey in general, but I have found products from responsible beekeepers who jar honey. I don't keep pets (though I have and I have loved them enormously). I would not support horseback riding. Most of those horses are miserable. I live across the road from a horse property. The owners don't even live in the house there. The horses are well cared for as far as structures, shade, and food (thank goodness for that at least). But all those poor horses do day in and day out is stand around in their dirt plots. Twice a day they whinny loudly when they hear the vehicle coming up the road with their food, because that is all they have to look forward to or do is eat, and since horses would normally graze all day, they are being unnaturally fed too. And as everyone here probably knows by now, I don't kill anything, including insects. There is a young rattlesnake who has lived in my yard all summer, named Severus. I'm not stupid enough to think I could interact with him physically, and one needs to be careful anyway all summer in the desert not to step on or inadvertently come upon a rattlesnake, but he has the right to be here just as much as I do, and he is part of the ecosystem.

I had a disagreement with a publisher some years back because I didn't want to illustrate a working dog. I also gave up 2 huge clients back in the early 90's because I told them I would not illustrate meat anymore, and they respected my convictions. 

The wildlife that visits my property is amazing and I think this is at least in part due to my tolerance of them. Last week I actually saw close up, in my little pond in the back yard I keep as a water source, a baby owl. We stared into each other's eyes and the owl just stood there calmly. It was incredible. I felt so honored. I've been close to an owl before, when one came down my chimney the night I moved onto this property. 

The reason I say all this is because I want to point out that I am in no way an extremist. I do or do not do these things because of what is in my heart. The way I live seems extreme to many. I am not vocal about any of it in general, or I would likely be labeled as such. A huge gap can form between those not adhering to typical and accepted ways of life and the majority of humanity—a path along which a person may traverse to get to where they are, and if this point they reach is too far from normal, they may be seen as extreme.

And those who are activists have convictions for a reason. The term "activist" is not synomynous with "extremist or zealot." We can't be aware of everything, even in this digital age. So activists raising awareness of animal and wildlife infringements is vitally important, just as it was vital in initiating change in women's rights, slavery, gay rights, etc.

[Monica]

oops posted in wrong thread

[Diana]

repeat post

[Diana]

For anyone who wants to be vegan but is finding it difficult to go without cheese, I have discovered the answer. I just ordered Vegan Buffalo Mozzarella from this site and I will be making pizza with it. I visit another board and the couple of members there who ordered some of these cheeses are raving about them. Here is the link:

Miyoko's Kitvhen


From their website:

Help Save The World With A Plant Based Diet

Enjoy familiar flavors while reducing your global footprint and saving the lives of animals. A plant-based diet is the most effective way to combat global warming, and cultured nut products makes it a whole lot tastier! Whether you go 100% vegan or just do Meatless Mondays, be a part of the solution to keep our planet green and animals happy and healthy! We all care about the planet and want to do what we can to help preserve it. By adopting a plant-based diet, you can reduce your global footprint by a whopping 94 per cent! Instead of the 2 ½ acres to feed an omnivore, a vegan diet requires only a half-acre, so the savings in energy, water, and resources are huge. The United Nations stated that the single most effective way to avert global warming is a worldwide shift away from animal products. With Miyoko’s Creamery products, you can say “good-bye” to dairy and still enjoy all of the flavors, richness and textures you love — and[font='Open Sans', sans-serif] help save the world![/font]

[indolering]

Good post, Diana.  Cheese is the last thing I learned to do without while becoming a vegan.  Most of the vegan cheese out there are not that good, but I finally found one I liked.  And I want to try the one you suggested here....

Cheers.