Why I am not a vegan

[anagogy]

I'd say 12.2 % is more than 'a little bit'!

Yet still on the rise worldwide. And also not particularly relevant to my argument and position, so it kind of misses the point.

[native]

As far as the work mentioned by Icaro - the STO path requires sacrifice of energy to do any work. We can sacrifice our own energy or the energy of others. Gardening is hard, but is it as hard as the idea of having to kill the animals yourself for food? (let alone the work gone into raising the animals...)

They're valid points. While I've come to realize that no matter what direction you go, effort in some form is needed in life, I just wonder what kind of effort. Is physical effort the answer, or is work in consciousness the answer? I'm fortunate to live in an area where I'll always be able to have a large garden even though it only contributes somewhat, unless you're aggressively homesteading (in which case that is basically your life), but I just wonder how far into our evolution we must constantly worry about basic needs. Ideas in spiritual evolution suggest that we have latent powers that are available which should make life easier.

My main issue is that my life-choices are supported by the effort of others, yet perhaps it's not really my job to worry about that. By that I mean I don't want to work hard in a field so I'm not going to (aside from a modest garden), and others should try it out and see how they feel about it, and if they don't like it they should say to hell with it as well. Should we break our backs for all eternity? It seems as if all catalyst exists on an individual level. I don't know if you can tell, but I get confused about this stuff and don't feel I necessarily know the answer. In one hand, I worry about the poor Mexican picking my vegetables, so maybe he/she should say no more. But then what will they do for money? Is it my responsibility to be worrying about these things? Is it all an illusion? This confusion tends to lean me towards the idea that living a sacred and ritualistic way of life is the answer..simply attempting to be appreciative and aware. Thanks for listening to the nonsense of my mind

[Monica]

I'd say 12.2 % is more than 'a little bit'!

Yet still on the rise worldwide.  And also not particularly relevant to my argument and position, so it kind of misses the point.

I think it's entirely relevant, to counter your position. In a wealthy (relative to the rest of the world) country in which there is an increasingly large amount of activism and raised awareness, meat consumption is steadily declining, even plummeting (in the words of that article).

This supports my assertion that our choices DO make an impact. It's simple cause and effect.

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[Monica]

Because I didn't bold it, does not mean I was leaving it out.

In the 6 or so years of ongoing discussions about meat, I don't recall any meat-eater EVER mentioning the idea of opening ourselves to service of our younger other-selves. Never. Not once. Not even one single time.

Only the vegetarians/vegans talk about service to our younger other-selves.

Oh and Ra. Ra does too.

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[Monica]

Is physical effort the answer, or is work in consciousness the answer?

Both. The amount of each (the ratio) depends on one's abilities. We can't all do everything, but it makes sense to do what we can.

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[anagogy]

This supports my assertion that our choices DO make an impact. It's simple cause and effect.

Well, that is a great assertion, and I certainly won't disagree with you.  But I never said your choices don't make an impact.  Certainly they make an impact.  Just not the way most people think they do.

Your choices certainly affect what happens to you.  They just don't have a massive impact on what happens to others.  If outward actions appear to do that, it was incidental to the manifestation already unfolding.  The people who seemed to be the instruments of change in the given situation, were simply the cooperative components drawn into that action in consciousness that was already in full swing.  As I said before, we are all creating our own circumstances.  So if you close off one path of manifestation, it just reincarnates in another manifestation.  You take a vaccine to prevent a disease, and the imbalance simply reincarnates as something else, because its root cause was never in the physical to begin with.  And it is the same with the disease of "factory farming".  The manifestation is symptomatic of a deeper level of consciousness.  I mean, I could sit here, and quote a bunch of statistics back at you to support an opposing position, and then you would do the same back, and then back and forth again.  It would be similar to arguing with people over health information.  One person quotes one study, the other quotes another study saying the opposite.  Back and forth.  Back and forth.  Never ending.  And then, when people are exhausted with that, we're just left to our personal beliefs/opinions again.  

So by all means, take whatever actions you believe are efficacious and meaningful, and I will do the same.  Peace.  All is well.

[Minyatur]

Because I didn't bold it, does not mean I was leaving it out.

In the 6 or so years of ongoing discussions about meat, I don't recall any meat-eater EVER mentioning the idea of opening ourselves to service of our younger other-selves. Never. Not once. Not even one single time.

Only the vegetarians/vegans talk about service to our younger other-selves.

Oh and Ra. Ra does too.

...

Well I do believe it was done in this thread.

I don't consider not eating meat being in a service in itself either. Fighting their oppressors also does nothing for the animals that have suffered, so unless you do work in consciousness to help their souls to heal from their wounds and move on to something greater (what I believe Ra is doing, not fighting the situation but healing those that call for love), you are not providing any service to your younger other-selves either.

In this light, I do believe the only one who talked about providing service to an animal that was slaughtered is Aion. You on the other hand seem to be championing animals that are not yet born so that they won't incarnate in this space/time environment that currently provide the experience they look for. Totally dismissing that you have no power over another's fate other than being an agent of it. If this earth becomes vegan, the negativity does not magically disapear, there will be an energy transfer of it and it will create a new time/space providing the same kind of experiences. Even if the earth becomes 4D, everything currently here that is not consonant with it will simply move elsewhere, not vanish.

In my view your services lie more with humans than animals, even if your discussed topic is animals. You are trying to use their pain to expand the consciousness of other humans.

[Monica]

Your choices certainly affect what happens to you.  They just don't have a massive impact on what happens to others.

How can you say that when I just showed evidence that people's choices to eat less meat DO affect others? To the tune of millions of others each year?

If outward actions appear to do that, it was incidental to the manifestation already unfolding.  The people who seemed to be the instruments of change in the given situation, were simply the cooperative components drawn into that action in consciousness that was already in full swing.  As I said before, we are all creating our own circumstances.  So if you close off one path of manifestation, it just reincarnates in another manifestation.  You take a vaccine to prevent a disease, and the imbalance simply reincarnates as something else, because its root cause was never in the physical to begin with.  And it is the same with the disease of "factory farming".  The manifestation is symptomatic of a deeper level of consciousness.  I mean, I could sit here, and quote a bunch of statistics back at you to support an opposing position, and then you would do the same back, and then back and forth again.  It would be similar to arguing with people over health information.  One person quotes one study, the other quotes another study saying the opposite.  Back and forth.  Back and forth.  Never ending.  And then, when people are exhausted with that, we're just left to our personal beliefs/opinions again.  

Your view seems to be very separatist to me. Your view seems to suggest that each of us is separate from the rest of the Universe, each of us alone.

If we didn't affect one another, then what would be the point of serving others? If we are all ONE, then how could we not affect one another?

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[Monica]

Well I do believe it was done in this thread.

Really? Where?

I don't consider not eating meat being in a service in itself either. Fighting their oppressors also does nothing for the animals that have suffered, so unless you do work in consciousness to help their souls to heal from their wounds and move on to something greater (what I believe Ra is doing, not fighting the situation but healing those that call for love), you are not providing any service to your younger other-selves either.

Ra said that the appropriate response to someone is hungry, is to feed them.

In this light, I do believe the only one who talked about providing service to an animal that was slaughtered is Aion.

Yes, while continuing to add to the demand for more animals to be slaughtered. That makes a whole lot of sense.

You on the other hand seem to be championing animals that are not yet born so that they won't incarnate in this space/time environment that currently provide the experience they look for. Totally dismissing that you have no power over another's fate other than being an agent of it. If this earth becomes vegan, the negativity does not magically disapear, there will be an energy transfer of it and it will create a new time/space providing the same kind of experiences. Even if the earth becomes 4D, everything currently here that is not consonant with it will simply move elsewhere, not vanish.

I disagree. We live in a holographic universe. Our consciousness affects the consciousness of other-selves. All is One.

In my view your services lie more with humans than animals, even if your discussed topic is animals. You are trying to use their pain to expand the consciousness of other humans.

It's neither and it's both. It's all the same. There is No separation.

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[Jade]

Your choices certainly affect what happens to you.  They just don't have a massive impact on what happens to others.

I don't consider not eating meat being in a service in itself either. Fighting their oppressors also does nothing for the animals that have suffered, so unless you do work in consciousness to help their souls to heal from their wounds and move on to something greater (what I believe Ra is doing, not fighting the situation but healing those that call for love), you are not providing any service to your younger other-selves either.

This line of discussion makes me a little disheartened. Let's take a look at our current refugee crisis. Are you saying those that are physically helping them, bringing them food, offering them homes, are on a fool's errand? How can one say that actions have NO consequences? Of course work in consciousness is a "step up" from work on the planet, but service is service, man. The desire to alleviate pain and suffering is the motivation behind incarnating as a Brother and Sister of Sorrow. I'm not going to say that "Well, the problem is too big, so anyone who's doing anything but praying about it can't even make a dent." What if your prayers are to mobilize those who feel their service is in the direct help of those who need it? You think these problems are just going to disappear without any input from physical labor?

Even if action on the physical plane pales to "work in consciousness", the planet desperately needs those with strong 4D compassion energies, even if it brings them to the point of martyrdom. Not to mention, that one can spend a lifetime "working in consciousness" but still never open their heart chakra. I just want to say, I don't disagree that working in consciousness is paramount, I just wholeheartedly disagree with the idea that those who change their behaviors do nothing to change the way the outer world reflects that being back to them, which appears to me to be the argument here against veganism: That one person's actions do not affect change.

[Minyatur]

Well I do believe it was done in this thread.

Really? Where?

Aion has spoken of making the consumed animal's traumas his own and transmuting the energy as if it were his own to then offer it back to the entity, providing a catalyst of healing and possibility of reaching self-awareness. How is that not opening oneself to our younger other-selves?

I don't consider not eating meat being in a service in itself either. Fighting their oppressors also does nothing for the animals that have suffered, so unless you do work in consciousness to help their souls to heal from their wounds and move on to something greater (what I believe Ra is doing, not fighting the situation but healing those that call for love), you are not providing any service to your younger other-selves either.

Ra said that the appropriate response to someone is hungry, is to feed them.

From the quote I last used, Ra also said that there are no generalization to make and that STO is a radiation of what is found within self, not what is found in others who hold different perspectives.

In this light, I do believe the only one who talked about providing service to an animal that was slaughtered is Aion.

Yes, while continuing to add to the demand for more animals to be slaughtered. That makes a whole lot of sense.

From your perspective I guess not.

You on the other hand seem to be championing animals that are not yet born so that they won't incarnate in this space/time environment that currently provide the experience they look for. Totally dismissing that you have no power over another's fate other than being an agent of it. If this earth becomes vegan, the negativity does not magically disapear, there will be an energy transfer of it and it will create a new time/space providing the same kind of experiences. Even if the earth becomes 4D, everything currently here that is not consonant with it will simply move elsewhere, not vanish.

I disagree. We live in a holographic universe. Our consciousness affects the consciousness of other-selves. All is One.

Yes but this works in both ways, I've spoken of this many times over already. Being an agent of chaos for another self also works in both direction as all is One.

In my view your services lie more with humans than animals, even if your discussed topic is animals. You are trying to use their pain to expand the consciousness of other humans.

It's neither and it's both. It's all the same. There is No separation.

...

I said this because you say people are much more focused on humans rather than our younger other-selves, but your work seems to be centred on humans using our younger other-selves as a theme to expand other's compassion. You even said this was the sole purpose of their experience, which I strongly disagree with. Their experience is theirs first, then they is a myriad of catalyst for other-selves in which it can then be used.

[Monica]

This line of discussion makes me a little disheartened. Let's take a look at our current refugee crisis. Are you saying those that are physically helping them, bringing them food, offering them homes, are on a fool's errand? How can one say that actions have NO consequences? Of course work in consciousness is a "step up" from work on the planet, but service is service, man. The desire to alleviate pain and suffering is the motivation behind incarnating as a Brother and Sister of Sorrow. I'm not going to say that "Well, the problem is too big, so anyone who's doing anything but praying about it can't even make a dent." What if your prayers are to mobilize those who feel their service is in the direct help of those who need it? You think these problems are just going to disappear without any input from physical labor?

Even if action on the physical plane pales to "work in consciousness", the planet desperately needs those with strong 4D compassion energies, even if it brings them to the point of martyrdom. Not to mention, that one can spend a lifetime "working in consciousness" but still never open their heart chakra. I just want to say, I don't disagree that working in consciousness is paramount, I just wholeheartedly disagree with the idea that those who change their behaviors do nothing to change the way the outer world reflects that being back to them, which appears to me to be the argument here against veganism: That one person's actions do not affect change.

WELL SAID!!!

That does seem to be the argument, along with an underlying assumption that our younger other-selves aren't really other-selves and therefore don't matter.

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[Monica]

Aion has spoken of making the consumed animal's traumas his own and transmuting the energy as if it were his own to then offer it back to the entity, providing a catalyst of healing and possibility of reaching self-awareness. How is that not opening oneself to our younger other-selves?

OK ONE. One single person, in 6 years, who ever said anything about actually serving our younger other-selves.

And even then, I question the need to continue supporting the demand for more torture/slaughter and contend that such service can be offered without actually contributing to the very thing that's causing the torture/slaughter in the first place.

Regardless, the overall gist from all the meat-eaters, over the past 6 years, has all been about THEM, rarely, if ever, acknowledging higher 2D entities as other-selves at all, much less serving them or answering their call.

From the quote I last used, Ra also said that there are no generalization to make and that STO is a radiation of what is found within self, not what is found in others who hold different perspectives.

Yes yes yes, that has been mentioned ad nauseum. My point is that what Ra said about feeding the hungry (translate: answering the call of those in need, physically) continually gets overlooked.

From your perspective I guess not.

From the perspective of simple supply and demand. Simple economics.

Yes but this works in both ways, I've spoken of this many times over already. Being an agent of chaos for another self also works in both direction as all is One.

Of course. That is certainly a valid path, for those who choose it. It is the STS path.

I said this because you say people are much more focused on humans rather than our younger other-selves, but your work seems to be centred on humans using our younger other-selves as a theme to expand other's compassion. You even said this was the sole purpose of their experience, which I strongly disagree with. Their experience is theirs first, then they is a myriad of catalyst for other-selves in which it can then be used.

I don't think I ever said it was their sole purpose. But I seem to place a lot more value on how we all affect one another, than your view seems to. I see all of use and constantly interacting with and affecting one another, for we are all One.

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[Minyatur]

I think an important point is that unlike many I do not deem their experiences as meaningless. I can picture the perspective of disgust of someone who would see each and every single of those experiences as a loss or waste although I disagree with that perspective.

About the brothers and sisters of sorrow, I did not incarnate among them and I do not share the same of view of what they are doing as they would have themselves. While they think they are working on others, I see that they are working on self and that just like anagogy said, the Universe will provide them with an endless stream of planets with suffering until they finish to work on their own distortions and stop feeling the need to heal this entire Universe.

Jade
Not to mention, that one can spend a lifetime "working in consciousness" but still never open their heart chakra

Well I do not think so, as that work in consciousness uses polarity to do the work. Unless your work is to infringe on others, there is no way you could do positive work in consciousness without opening your heart.

[Monica]

Well I do not think so, as that work in consciousness uses polarity to do the work. Unless your work is to infringe on others, there is no way you could do positive work in consciousness without opening your heart.

Eating animals is infringing on them! :idea:

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[Minyatur]

Well I do not think so, as that work in consciousness uses polarity to do the work. Unless your work is to infringe on others, there is no way you could do positive work in consciousness without opening your heart.

Eating animals is infringing on them!  :idea:

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No it is not, I've already told you the meat I consume is no longer a 2D consciousness upon which I can infringe. It can either be consumed or be left to waste. I did get that we won't find agreement upon this. But unlike what you seem to think, I have no strong desires to infringe upon others within myself nor do I feel that I polarize negatively from eating meat. I'd personally ask you to go to a grocery store and purchase meat (a small amount has no way of adding to any suffering currently happening on this earth and the meager amount you'd pay would not finance anything either), then by eating this meat you could contemplate on what you feel. Do you feel that you are infringing upon another's will? Or do you feel that you are merely repulsed by it's provenance?

In term of cause and effect I also said that your are much more karmically involved in this than I am, I could be on a vegan planet and it wouldn't change a single thing to myself nor what I am working on whereas your awareness is very focused upon this and you might even have come to this planet solely because of this. I eat to eat and nothing more, if things were different I'd eat differently and it would not change much in myself nor my polarity, whereas in my view you do need this reality you reject to fight against until you finally come to accept it, and you will endlessly keep doing so until you do come to where it inevitably always lead, which is awareness that it was all love, that it never truly needed to be worked against, that your fight was against yourself and that others in what you loved and have not loved, were agents of your fate so that you may explore yourself.

Like you said, all is One and the only thing you can fight against is yourself.

[Minyatur]

I do have a deep belief that love can be found within every being, every action, every circumstances, every twist of fate, in a closed heart just as in an open heart.

There is not much you can do to shake that belief.

[Monica]

No it is not, I've already told you the meat I consume is no longer a 2D consciousness upon which I can infringe. It can either be consumed or be left to waste. I did get that we won't find agreement upon this. But unlike what you seem to think, I have no strong desires to infringe upon others within myself nor do I feel that I polarize negatively from eating meat. I'd personally ask you to go to a grocery store and purchase meat (a small amount has no way of adding to any suffering currently happening on this earth and the meager amount you'd pay would not finance anything either), then by eating this meat you could contemplate on what you feel. Do you feel that you are infringing upon another's will? Or do you feel that you are merely repulsed by it's provenance?

In term of cause and effect I also said that your are much more karmically involved in this than I am, I could be on a vegan planet and it wouldn't change a single thing to myself nor what I am working on whereas your awareness is very focused upon this and you might even have come to this planet solely because of this. I eat to eat and nothing more, if things were different I'd eat differently and it would not change much in myself nor my polarity, whereas in my view you do need this reality you reject to fight against until you finally come to accept it, and you will endlessly keep doing so until you do come to where it inevitably always lead, which is awareness that it was all love, that it never truly needed to be worked against, that your fight was against yourself and that others in what you loved and have not loved, were agents of your fate so that you may explore yourself.

Like you said, all is One and the only thing you can fight against is yourself.

Since you admittedly have so little concern for this issue, and disregard your own role in contributing to the demand for more animals to be killed, then why do you participate in these discussions? (Just curious)

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[Monica]

I do have a deep belief that love can be found within every being, every action, every circumstances, every twist of fate, in a closed heart just as in an open heart.

There is not much you can do to shake that belief.

If you don't see much difference between a closed heart and an open heart, then your definition of love must be very different from mine.

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[Minyatur]

I do have a deep belief that love can be found within every being, every action, every circumstances, every twist of fate, in a closed heart just as in an open heart.

There is not much you can do to shake that belief.

If you don't see much difference between a closed heart and an open heart, then your definition of love must be very different from mine.

...

A closed heart does not in any way mean no heart. There is love to be found in why an heart was closed, there is love to found in everything that is done while the heart is closed and there is love to found in the re-opening of the heart.

All is one, to hurt others is ever a way to hurt self.

[Monica]

I've already told you the meat I consume is no longer a 2D consciousness upon which I can infringe. It can either be consumed or be left to waste.

You can't affect that animal who is already dead. But how many animals is your choice affecting next year, and the year after that, and 10 years after that?

Let's do the math:

According to recently published data from the U.S. Department of Agriculture and several other official sources, 59 billion animals died to feed Americans in 2009. The average American meat eater was responsible for about 198 deaths in 2009. Over a lifetime, this amounts to 15,000 animals per meat eater.

http://freefromharm.org/farm-animal-welf...9YooF.dpuf

Let's do the math:

59 billion is expressed thusly: 59,000,000,000

Using an online calculator, multiply that by 12% (.12) = 7,198,000,000

That's a decrease of over 7 BILLION animals per YEAR! Just in the US!

The US has a population of 319 million. The numbers of vegetarians and vegans is growing rapidly.

A single meat-eater can't affect the animals already killed. But s/he CAN affect the animals Not yet killed!

Collectively, we've already reduced the number by over 7 BILLION!

Approximately 198 per year, per person! 15,000 over a lifetime!

Each person's choice IS important! Mathematically significant!

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[Monica]

A closed heart does not in any way mean no heart. There is love to be found in why an heart was closed, there is love to found in everything that is done while the heart is closed and there is love to found in the re-opening of the heart.

All is one, to hurt others is ever a way to hurt self.

Yes, yes, ultimately all is Love. But what, pray tell, is the difference between a closed heart and an open heart?

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[Minyatur]

A closed heart does not in any way mean no heart. There is love to be found in why an heart was closed, there is love to found in everything that is done while the heart is closed and there is love to found in the re-opening of the heart.

All is one, to hurt others is ever a way to hurt self.

Yes, yes, ultimately all is Love. But what, pray tell, is the difference between a closed heart and an open heart?

...

What one feels through it or what one can channel through it in the present moment. Which may explain why you perspective is very focused on the here and now, whereas a closed heart kind of delays it all for a later time. The love and light of it is also to be distilled and accepted.

If you think anyone can escape awareness of having hurt other-self as if it was self, you are dead wrong.

[Diana]

I don't think very many people on this forum disagree that there are major problems with factory farming.  There is suffering there, obviously.  Ideally, an animal should get to roam free, and enjoy the pleasures of living in the physical form it has come to inhabit.  And no, I'm not against eating meat.  There will always be meat eating.  Even if you pass laws to stop all the humans, they will do it in secret.  And no one will ever stop animals from eating each other, because it is a natural part of life.   

Isn't that a rather short-sighted statement that there will always be meat eating? Why? It's perfectly plausible for humanity to evolve to a plant-based diet. As Einstein said, "Nothing will benefit human health and increase the chances for survival of life on earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet." As far as animals and predator/prey, my imagination can grasp the idea that evolution will include all species. Everything evolves; it's not just linear. So the Creator, or the Source, also evolves. It follows that even processes can evolve. Perhaps somewhere someday even animals will be at peace with each other because there is a less cruel way to obtain sustenance. Even the bible says the lion shall lay with the lamb in Revelations.

Choosing to not eat meat from factory farms is not even making an iota of a dent in the problem, of factory farm suffering. Do you honestly think that being a vegetarian makes a significant impact in factory farming?  I assure you, it doesn't.  You know why?  Because most of the world doesn't care.   Their numbers completely overwhelm you! They don't have that open heart you're referring to.  So at the end of the day, the only way it is going to end is if the people doing the killing stop, and isn't realistic from my point of view.  A Lot of vegetarian/vegan folk want to think that eating meat is synonymous with the killing of the animals.  It's not from my perspective.  And not eating the meat is no better than eating the meat.  Not eating it is making their sacrifice truly meaningless, and is wasteful of their vessel.  And also, again, doesn't significantly affect the problem of factory farming suffering (maybe if you got the whole world to do it -- good luck).

Firstly, what does it matter what amount of impact being a vegetarian has on factory farming? Ra was happy to have reached ONE person.

You are seriously deluding yourself that what you do does not have an impact on the world—even the smallest thing. ESPECIALLY for someone who does work in consciousness. In the first place, there seem to be those on this forum who do not understand the basic mechanics of supply and demand. When the demand goes away, so does the supply. And speaking to your assertion that the meat would be wasted so why not eat it—yes, there is the matter of wasting the meat of the poor animals who have suffered to be food for humans. But a conscious society could deal with that. (There is huge waste by the way in grocery stores of all foods.) An enlightened society might matriculate the system by first, freeing the animals from confinement and stop torturing them (I can conjecture more later on how this could practically be done in full, but I want to stick to the point), and use the meat already being processed to feed pets.
 
And I will add, that according to some on this forum who say the animals are here to be of service to us in this way—by suffering in factory farms—even if their bodies aren't consumed why is the service meaningless? Perhaps the service all along was to show us our own cruelty. Why do whales beach themselves? Why do dolphins get caught in nets they can get out of? Why is there a whole culture of alien abductions where the grays torture and use the humans?

I know you don't want metaphysical explanations, but sorry, that's part of the reality.

You have misunderstood me. I said I didn't want new age la-la fluff (unsubstantiated, unsupported, un-thought-out spew). Metaphysics is fine. I wouldn't be here otherwise.

Every being is creating its own reality.  I know it has been said a hundred times before, and seems like the universal cop out, but it's absolutely true IMO.  It doesn't mean that all beings are getting what they want (I very much doubt any being *wants* to suffer), just what they tune to via the consistent nature of their conscious thoughts.  Victimizers will attract victims, and vice versa.  Fear will attract circumstances to fear, even if humans and their factory farms aren't around.  One is attracted into the conditions they focus upon, this is true of all consciousness.  So if a being is attuned to fear, they will attract circumstances to fear.  They can even attract torturous conditions for themselves (again, even if no humans are around).  Fear is a natural vibrational state for many in the animal kingdom, since they are often existing in red ray survival consciousness.

Yes, each entity will journey on its own path.

But that is not the point. The point is, what do YOU choose to do?

So does this mean we shouldn't do anything?  Not necessarily.  You can tune your thoughts to well being, and be a shining beacon of well being for others.  And if eating vegetarian/vegan causes you to feel more in alignment with well being than the alternative, I think that is great.

Here you don't know me at all, but that is understandable because we are both words on a screen to each other.

I tune my thoughts to well-being every day. I don't set out to be a shining beacon, I simply am that in the sense that I am what I am. Being vegetarian is not that simple. It is not just for me. After so many threads and posts I am not sure I have the energy to explain. Suffice it to say that I am "in this world but not of it."

But accept the truth that there will *always* be beings suffering, somewhere, and the there will always be beings enjoying life immensely, somewhere.  It is all part and parcel of the infinite ingredients of our cosmos.  And without that duality, we couldn't experience anything but monochrome.  The creator is not all love and light.  It is darkness too.  And coming to terms with that isn't easy, but at some point you have to ask yourself, do I want to focus my consciousness into where all the misery is, or where all the well being is?    

Of course I want to focus on the well-being. Every single time, since Icaro, Aion, and I came up with the visualization, I mentally create the tree, grass, and a foal for every miserable horse on a piece of desert dirt I pass as I drive. This is a discussion however with presumably evolved and conscious thinking individuals, who presumably WANT to talk about it in some capacity and choose it—I am not forcing anyone. That is why I discuss here. Out in the world it is different. There, I live and let live, though as you say, it isn't easy.

But let me ask you: do you want to focus your consciousness on denial, or in blindness? I go back to my original question: how could you watch the pitiable lives of meat animals and their eventual inhumane slaughter with an open heart and not be utterly saddened? And if you are saddened, why on earth would you choose to add to the machine? Saying you are not a component of that machine if you continue to buy its products is simply denial, however you twist words into justifications.

[Diana]

I've already told you the meat I consume is no longer a 2D consciousness upon which I can infringe. It can either be consumed or be left to waste.

You can't affect that animal who is already dead. But how many animals is your choice affecting next year, and the year after that, and 10 years after that?

If one thinks outside of the box, and considers the idea that time is only linear for us in 3 dimensions, then this argument ceases to have any substance at all. 

What you do affects everything. And if you can wrap your head around time not being linear (being only a construct for us to work within), then you might see that past, present, and future are illusions, or rather, tools. Therefore it follow that you do in fact affect everything even if it is in the so-called past.

[Monica]

What one feels through it or what one can channel through it in the present moment.

Feelings are subjective. There is much more to the chakras being open or closed/blocked, according to Ra. But that is outside the scope of this discussion.

Which may explain why you perspective is very focused on the here and now

How funny. Weren't you just saying that you couldn't affect the animals because they're already dead? And didn't I just say, yeah but you can affect future animals? So who is limiting their focus to the here and now and who is envisioning future 'now' moments?

If you think anyone can escape awareness of having hurt other-self as if it was self, you are dead wrong.

??? Where did that come from? I never said any such thing and have no idea what you're talking about.

We have all harmed and been harmed, at various times. That isn't the point. The point is whether to choose to continue harming.

...

[Monica]

If one thinks outside of the box, and considers the idea that time is only linear for us in 3 dimensions, then this argument ceases to have any substance at all. 

What you do affects everything. And if you can wrap your head around time not being linear (being only a construct for us to work within), then you might see that past, present, and future are illusions, or rather, tools. Therefore it follow that you do in fact affect everything even if it is the so-called past.

Yes, exactly! I was showing how, even in linear time, our choices do have an impact.

So much more so, when we expand our thinking beyond linear time!

Remember the 100th Monkey! Even a single person choosing to No longer contribute to this machine of suffering, could be that 100th Monkey, who will tip the scale of the collective consciousness into one of compassion, and facilitate our planet shifting.

...

[Minyatur]

No it is not, I've already told you the meat I consume is no longer a 2D consciousness upon which I can infringe. It can either be consumed or be left to waste. I did get that we won't find agreement upon this. But unlike what you seem to think, I have no strong desires to infringe upon others within myself nor do I feel that I polarize negatively from eating meat. I'd personally ask you to go to a grocery store and purchase meat (a small amount has no way of adding to any suffering currently happening on this earth and the meager amount you'd pay would not finance anything either), then by eating this meat you could contemplate on what you feel. Do you feel that you are infringing upon another's will? Or do you feel that you are merely repulsed by it's provenance?

In term of cause and effect I also said that your are much more karmically involved in this than I am, I could be on a vegan planet and it wouldn't change a single thing to myself nor what I am working on whereas your awareness is very focused upon this and you might even have come to this planet solely because of this. I eat to eat and nothing more, if things were different I'd eat differently and it would not change much in myself nor my polarity, whereas in my view you do need this reality you reject to fight against until you finally come to accept it, and you will endlessly keep doing so until you do come to where it inevitably always lead, which is awareness that it was all love, that it never truly needed to be worked against, that your fight was against yourself and that others in what you loved and have not loved, were agents of your fate so that you may explore yourself.

Like you said, all is One and the only thing you can fight against is yourself.

Since you admittedly have so little concern for this issue, and disregard your own role in contributing to the demand for more animals to be killed, then why do you participate in these discussions? (Just curious)

...

I said I am not karmically involved, which means I have no strong emotional response to this (whether in a STO or STS way). 

I eat meat in acklowledgment of how it was made and unlike you I do not see it as wrong. It is the experience of the animal and not mine and unlike you I have no intent to deny it or to try to keep them from happening. I have a very very very strong belief that everything happens for a reason, even if I were to eventually become vegan there is very close to no chance that I'd regret my past actions.

As to why I partake in these threads, why not? is it not a good catalyst? I'm a gemini that believes we can only be mirror unto one another, I'd worry if I did not partake in these threads.

[Minyatur]

I've already told you the meat I consume is no longer a 2D consciousness upon which I can infringe. It can either be consumed or be left to waste.

You can't affect that animal who is already dead. But how many animals is your choice affecting next year, and the year after that, and 10 years after that?

Let's do the math:

According to recently published data from the U.S. Department of Agriculture and several other official sources, 59 billion animals died to feed Americans in 2009. The average American meat eater was responsible for about 198 deaths in 2009. Over a lifetime, this amounts to 15,000 animals per meat eater.

http://freefromharm.org/farm-animal-welf...9YooF.dpuf

Let's do the math:

59 billion is expressed thusly: 59,000,000,000

Using an online calculator, multiply that by 12% (.12) = 7,198,000,000

That's a decrease of over 7 BILLION animals per YEAR! Just in the US!

The US has a population of 319 million. The numbers of vegetarians and vegans is growing rapidly.

A single meat-eater can't affect the animals already killed. But s/he CAN affect the animals Not yet killed!

Collectively, we've already reduced the number by over 7 BILLION!

Approximately 198 per year, per person! 15,000 over a lifetime!

Each person's choice IS important! Mathematically significant!

...

Those are just pretty numbers, if you think that if one of those americans by dying at the beginning of the year would have caused 198 less deaths then that is very naive, the average would simply be slightly bigger. 

[Diana]

I said I am not karmically involved, which means I have no strong emotional response to this (whether in a STO or STS way). 

I eat meat in acklowledgment of how it was made and unlike you I do not see it as wrong. It is the experience of the animal and not mine and unlike you I have no intent to deny it or to try to keep them from happening. I have a very very very strong belief that everything happens for a reason, even if I were to eventually become vegan there is very close to no chance that I'd regret my past actions.

As to why I partake in these threads, why not? is it not a good catalyst? I'm a gemini that believes we can only be mirror unto one another, I'd worry if I did not partake in these threads.

Why are you here, just to take up space? 

No one said eating meat is "wrong" by the way.

Out of curiosity, how do you know you are not karmically involved?