Learning to Love Indifference

[VanAlioSaldo]

(I honestly apply that to myself already, laugh all you want.)

[Minyatur]

I don't quite understand your train of thoughts.

The higher self is you. When you go at sleep at night and say you enter a nightmare. Would your dream awareness blaming your human awareness for going to sleep make sense to you? You do it because it is necessary, whether it is a dream or a nightmare depends on what you have deep within but the act of sleeping was necessary to you.

I also don't get the relationship you make between a soul and a human. A human without a soul isn't a human, it'd be a unmoving body with an unused mind interface that never processed thoughts. It wouldn't last long without being fed by machines and would simply never move or think. It'd be matter like a more complex rock which desintegrates quickly.

[VanAlioSaldo]

Min, do you understand that a Human Being is it's own being not attached to a Higher Self?

That a Human Being is separate a Soul?

Edit: How do you mean a Human without a Soul isn't a Human anyways?

[Minyatur]

Min, do you understand that a Human Being is it's own being not attached to a Higher Self?

That a Human Being is separate a Soul?

Well the body is a 1D entity which exists as a complex form of matter

What uses the mind and moves the body or have emotions and feels your senses is a limited spectrum of awareness of your higher self.

[isis]

(I honestly apply that to myself already, laugh all you want.)

The 'you might be surprised in a bad way' is the part that tickled me.

[Minyatur]

A human is a mind/body/spirit complex and all of the things you've talked about would only concern such a complex.

If you take away the soul, it is an empty shell that would rot away quite fast if not maintained by another mind/body/spirit complex.

[VanAlioSaldo]

The Human Body that is the Fetus inside the Womb is a 2D entity that is capable of Self-Awareness, and it develops into a 3D being that is Self-Aware.

1D is of a Body only, with the semantic Mind/Body title being inherent in that there is consciousness, it is only beginning to stir and become aware, from there it acquires awareness, becoming 2D, then acquires Self-Awareness becoming 3D.

I have read the Ra Material more than once guys. I'm not making odd stupid connections, this Universe can be all things. For some it is nice and calmly, a serene Earth. For others it is Hell. I don't mind that regarding the Soul, the soul did choose.

Did the Human give consent to the Soul to make it experience that Hell?

[VanAlioSaldo]

(I honestly apply that to myself already, laugh all you want.)

The 'you might be surprised in a bad way' is the part that tickled me.

Oh god I know. I'm about 95% sure I've lost my mind and am literally, not figuratively literally, but literally fucking literally losing my mind.

Because of this issue.

I giggled too when I wrote that, I figured it'd be fair in that it applies completely to me as well. As did all the insulting portions I wrote.

[Minyatur]

The Human Body that is the Fetus inside the Womb is a 2D entity that is capable of Self-Awareness, and it develops into a 3D being that is Self-Aware.

1D is of a Body only, with the semantic Mind/Body title being inherent in that there is consciousness, it is only beginning to stir and become aware, from there it acquires awareness, becoming 2D, then acquires Self-Awareness becoming 3D.

I have read the Ra Material more than once guys.  I'm not making odd stupid connections, this Universe can be all things.  For some it is nice and calmly, a serene Earth.  For others it is Hell.  I don't mind that regarding the Soul, the soul did choose.

Did the Human give consent to the Soul to make it experience that Hell?

What experiences the hell is the soul in my opinion. Through the window of the ego.

[VanAlioSaldo]

So the Human Fetus that developed into a Human Being and was born isn't also experiencing that Hell? It's just the Soul, and the Human Shell having Awareness, does not experience?

[Minyatur]

So the Human Fetus that developed into a Human Being and was born isn't also experiencing that Hell?  It's just the Soul, and the Human Shell having Awareness, does not experience?

Well I do think the body has it's own experiences. But it'd be not worse than lava melting rock, wind eroding mountains, etc.

I'm a bit more clueless about the mind in itself as to what it actually experiences. Maybe only electrical flows...

Emotionnal and mental hell are strictly of the soul IMO.

Did Ra say the foetus in itself is a 2D entity? Because then I'd agree that it'd be weird for a 2D soul to inhabit it during it's making to be replaced later on by a 3D soul.

[Lighthead]

It might help to realize that the only way to experience heaven is to experience hell. It starts out with the utter chaos of catalyst in 1D and on and on until we get better at utilizing catalyst until we no longer need that much catalyst. Trust me when I say that when you're bored off your ass there in 6D, you're going to be dying to get back here to 3D to experience the absolute roughest things possible. And if you think that that is one sick joke, then I would assume that you would think that any learning process that is primarily difficult is one big sick joke. Learning how to ride a bike sucks at first, but when you're able to do tricks on the bike it doesn't suck anymore; if anything, the opposite. How do you think that any higher being could be given greater and greater responsibility if he or she weren't tried and tested first? You have to first demonstrate you can ride a bicycle if you want to get your M2 (motorcycle) license. I for one am glad that I don't live in a universe where everything is handed to me.

I have either:

A. Been through the hardest imaginable incarnation to get where I am.

Or

2. Going to go through the hardest imaginable incarnation to go even further.

And it might seem pointless, but eventually, you just get it. You get better and better at dealing with catalyst. And it's all to your benefit, and it's all to the universe's benefit. How does a king establish his lineage? Not by sitting on his ass.

Simple as that, jack.

[VanAlioSaldo]

The mechanics were touched upon but the inferences should be applied from Journey of Souls content, otherwise I'd have made this in the Strictly Law of One forum.

The Fetus is aware, it can react to the soul, it does notice the soul, apparently some struggle and others just let it happen. While in the womb they start off 1D (single cellular substances coming together), then becomes 1D (cellular, or possibly 2D if certain types of cells are 'more evolved') and once it formulates a structure and a system it becomes a 2D body, but until the nervous system of the heart is built, the Mind portion can be seen closer to absent.

Once the Heart forms and the real form maker begins to develop (The Brain) then the entity is officially 2D, and becomes 3D at some point before birth. I think it's in the second trimester when the full Mind and Body has formed that allows the Spirit to integrate fully and merge, creating a full Mind/Body/Spirit Complex.

From the explanation of the structure of the Mind, it sounds like the Human is a Shell in that it can be but it will lack bias and will, things the soul provides perhaps???

But it still wouldn't explain how that Shell isn't experiencing and isn't self-aware. The Soul joining doesn't provide self-awareness, does it?

[VanAlioSaldo]

It might help to realize that the only way to experience heaven is to experience hell. It starts out with the utter chaos of catalyst in 1D and on and on until we get better at utilizing catalyst until we no longer need that much catalyst. Trust me when I say that when you're bored off your ass there in 6D, you're going to be dying to get back here to 3D to experience the absolute roughest things possible. And if you think that that is one sick joke, then I would assume that you would think that any learning process that is primarily difficult is one big sick joke. Learning how to ride a bike sucks at first, but when you're able to do tricks on the bike it doesn't suck anymore; if anything, the opposite. How do you think that any higher being could be given greater and greater responsibility if he or she weren't tried and tested first? You have to first demonstrate you can ride a bicycle if you want to get your M2 (motorcycle) license. I for one am glad that I don't live in a universe where everything is handed to me.

I have either:

A. Been through the hardest imaginable incarnation to get where I am.

Or

2. Going to go through the hardest imaginable incarnation to go even further.

And it might seem pointless, but eventually, you just get it. You get better and better at dealing with catalyst. And it's all to your benefit, and it's all to the universe's benefit. How does a king establish his lineage? Not by sitting on his ass.

Simple as that, jack.

Let's try to separate the Soul's desires from a Human's.

And regarding the bolded.

...I think some literally actually have established their linage, while sitting. If you...If ya catch ma drift, man -nudge nudge-

But I know this as well, it's not the issue. The issue is the perspective from the Human's point of experience

Edit: Here ya go, Light.

[Lighthead]

The mechanics were touched upon but the inferences should be applied from Journey of Souls content, otherwise I'd have made this in the Strictly Law of One forum.

The Fetus is aware, it can react to the soul, it does notice the soul, apparently some struggle and others just let it happen.  While in the womb they start off 1D (single cellular substances coming together), then becomes 1D (cellular, or possibly 2D if certain types of cells are 'more evolved') and once it formulates a structure and a system it becomes a 2D body, but until the nervous system of the heart is built, the Mind portion can be seen closer to absent.

Once the Heart forms and the real form maker begins to develop (The Brain) then the entity is officially 2D, and becomes 3D at some point before birth.  I think it's in the second trimester when the full Mind and Body has formed that allows the Spirit to integrate fully and merge, creating a full Mind/Body/Spirit Complex.

From the explanation of the structure of the Mind, it sounds like the Human is a Shell in that it can be but it will lack bias and will, things the soul provides perhaps???

But it still wouldn't explain how that Shell isn't experiencing and isn't self-aware.  The Soul joining doesn't provide self-awareness, does it?

You may have not seen it because you just posted a reply, but I just wrote you a very relevant post which is very relevant to what you're talking about. I recommend you read it.

[Lighthead]

It might help to realize that the only way to experience heaven is to experience hell. It starts out with the utter chaos of catalyst in 1D and on and on until we get better at utilizing catalyst until we no longer need that much catalyst. Trust me when I say that when you're bored off your ass there in 6D, you're going to be dying to get back here to 3D to experience the absolute roughest things possible. And if you think that that is one sick joke, then I would assume that you would think that any learning process that is primarily difficult is one big sick joke. Learning how to ride a bike sucks at first, but when you're able to do tricks on the bike it doesn't suck anymore; if anything, the opposite. How do you think that any higher being could be given greater and greater responsibility if he or she weren't tried and tested first? You have to first demonstrate you can ride a bicycle if you want to get your M2 (motorcycle) license. I for one am glad that I don't live in a universe where everything is handed to me.

I have either:

A. Been through the hardest imaginable incarnation to get where I am.

Or

2. Going to go through the hardest imaginable incarnation to go even further.

And it might seem pointless, but eventually, you just get it. You get better and better at dealing with catalyst. And it's all to your benefit, and it's all to the universe's benefit. How does a king establish his lineage? Not by sitting on his ass.

Simple as that, jack.

Let's try to separate the Soul's desires from a Human's.

And regarding the bolded.

...I think some literally actually have established their linage, while sitting.  If you...If ya catch ma drift, man -nudge nudge-

But I know this as well, it's not the issue.  The issue is the perspective from the Human's point of experience

If you notice, I said, establish his lineage. I'm not talking about his descendants who are sitting on the throne and looking pretty. I'm talking about what that king did for himself and his perhaps ungrateful descendants.

[Minyatur]

Well everything is made of souls in different scopes of awareness, that is all we would be all One. In a way each cell of the body also is something on it's own.

Does the 2D entity foetus has the same soul as the 3D entity that it becomes? Because if a soul can incarnate in a 3D body, it also can in a 2D body.

It's just that there no much point I guess in incarnating as a bird when the soul has more potential and needs a mind to do greater work.

I do think Ra said reincarnation process is automatic until green ray penetration. So I do think it's the natural order.

[VanAlioSaldo]

It might help to realize that the only way to experience heaven is to experience hell. It starts out with the utter chaos of catalyst in 1D and on and on until we get better at utilizing catalyst until we no longer need that much catalyst. Trust me when I say that when you're bored off your ass there in 6D, you're going to be dying to get back here to 3D to experience the absolute roughest things possible. And if you think that that is one sick joke, then I would assume that you would think that any learning process that is primarily difficult is one big sick joke. Learning how to ride a bike sucks at first, but when you're able to do tricks on the bike it doesn't suck anymore; if anything, the opposite. How do you think that any higher being could be given greater and greater responsibility if he or she weren't tried and tested first? You have to first demonstrate you can ride a bicycle if you want to get your M2 (motorcycle) license. I for one am glad that I don't live in a universe where everything is handed to me.

I have either:

A. Been through the hardest imaginable incarnation to get where I am.

Or

2. Going to go through the hardest imaginable incarnation to go even further.

And it might seem pointless, but eventually, you just get it. You get better and better at dealing with catalyst. And it's all to your benefit, and it's all to the universe's benefit. How does a king establish his lineage? Not by sitting on his ass.

Simple as that, jack.

Let's try to separate the Soul's desires from a Human's.

And regarding the bolded.

...I think some literally actually have established their linage, while sitting.  If you...If ya catch ma drift, man -nudge nudge-

But I know this as well, it's not the issue.  The issue is the perspective from the Human's point of experience

If you notice, I said, establish his lineage. I'm not talking about his descendants who are sitting on the throne and looking pretty. I'm talking about what that king did for himself and his perhaps ungrateful descendants.

And if you'll notice, you're derailing my thread.

Again. You can go off topic, but then go back on topic otherwise you're just going off topic.

[Lighthead]

It might help to realize that the only way to experience heaven is to experience hell. It starts out with the utter chaos of catalyst in 1D and on and on until we get better at utilizing catalyst until we no longer need that much catalyst. Trust me when I say that when you're bored off your ass there in 6D, you're going to be dying to get back here to 3D to experience the absolute roughest things possible. And if you think that that is one sick joke, then I would assume that you would think that any learning process that is primarily difficult is one big sick joke. Learning how to ride a bike sucks at first, but when you're able to do tricks on the bike it doesn't suck anymore; if anything, the opposite. How do you think that any higher being could be given greater and greater responsibility if he or she weren't tried and tested first? You have to first demonstrate you can ride a bicycle if you want to get your M2 (motorcycle) license. I for one am glad that I don't live in a universe where everything is handed to me.

I have either:

A. Been through the hardest imaginable incarnation to get where I am.

Or

2. Going to go through the hardest imaginable incarnation to go even further.

And it might seem pointless, but eventually, you just get it. You get better and better at dealing with catalyst. And it's all to your benefit, and it's all to the universe's benefit. How does a king establish his lineage? Not by sitting on his ass.

Simple as that, jack.

Let's try to separate the Soul's desires from a Human's.

And regarding the bolded.

...I think some literally actually have established their linage, while sitting.  If you...If ya catch ma drift, man -nudge nudge-

But I know this as well, it's not the issue.  The issue is the perspective from the Human's point of experience

If you notice, I said, establish his lineage. I'm not talking about his descendants who are sitting on the throne and looking pretty. I'm talking about what that king did for himself and his perhaps ungrateful descendants.

And if you'll notice, you're derailing my thread.

Again.  You can go off topic, but then go back on topic otherwise you're just going off topic.

How is that off-topic! It's exactly relevant to the discussion! I'm talking about how you need to suffer to be able to handle greater and greater things.

[VanAlioSaldo]

Well everything is made of souls in different scopes of awareness, that is all we would be all One. In a way each cell of the body also is something on it's own.

Does the 2D entity foetus has the same soul as the 3D entity that it becomes? Because if a soul can incarnate in a 3D body, it also can in a 2D body.

It's just that there no much point I guess in incarnating as a bird when the soul has more potential and needs a mind to do greater work.

I do think Ra said reincarnation process is automatic until green ray penetration. So I do think it's the natural order.

It's automatic until one becomes aware of the process of reincarnation, is what Ra said, but I think they meant it towards what you're saying basically.

I'm focusing on how the cosmos Interacts with a 3D Human Being.  Whether there are 2D souls also encompassed alongside a 3D soul is unknown to me but if they are, they may be those emotional thoughtforms in the aura, as one example. But...That is very perceptive, it adds many new potential layers if that is how things work.

Otherwise, also realize a 3D entity does not necessarily have a 3D soul, so for those with 6D souls, who's presence alone is damaging to the overall Human Shell's structure due to High to Low Vibration inconsistencies at the cellular levels allowing for cascading issues upwards to manifest pre-incarnative catalyst. Which are essentially purposeful issues to teach the soul, which it experiences through the Human Body.

So if the Human body is separate, and in itself Self-Aware, does it consent?

This all becomes irrelevant if it turns out the Human Body and the Human Shell and the Human Mind are not Self-Aware without the Soul.

Edit: Light, I await your return to the topic, I feel like once you understand and see the angle I'm speaking from you'll have very interesting thoughts to provide that I think will help me insanely a lot.

That...Wasn't sarcasm by the way, just making sure...

[Lighthead]

Is your topic the OP about unconditional love and indifference or your second OP?

Edit: And, seriously, please explain what the topic really is so that I can be completely on point.

[VanAlioSaldo]

The OP is a good start to try and explain to me the possible...Issues with my own view.

I want you guys to debunk that this place is not literally hell for some, that Human's, those Human Beings are not used and abused by the rest of Creation for Spiritual Evolution. I realized on my path to discovering this perspective that Love and Indifference in action look exactly the same in the 3D perspective, with inherent differences not known when you apply the perspective as being from 3D origin, and not higher.

Otherwise, because the view, 3rd Density is possible of becoming literally Hell, is a hard one for some to realize due to the huge amounts of positive perspective applied to the material overall, as well as the uncertainties and misunderstandings of the full mechanics of laid out in the Ra Material.

Which I believe that 15% that is wrong may be well placed misinformation to allow for a perspective as the one I've stumbled in to.

So please...for the sake of my mind. Help me realize that my view, is wrong.

Here's some help, below... I'm trying...

So let me list it out for you in a list of contextual quotes of my own posts, I'll cut it down and edit for context, but the point will be at the bottom, the huuuuge sum up, with all the meat being listed below.

Preface or tl;dr;;StartHere
There is an Octave, Layers 1 through 3 can all experience each other, Layers 4-8 do not need to show themselves to the lower layers.
Layers 1 and 2 are basically, with a few exceptions, all not self-aware but becoming.
By Layer 3 Self-Awareness is present.
Layers 4-6 integrate into the lower layers in the form of reincarnation, in order to learn.

By making the Self Aware Layer 3 Entity suffer through catalyst in order to learn a lesson.

0. It is literally only from 3D that this perspective can be met it seems, all others seem to truly just accept it as is.  Which I don't know if I should believe it is actually out of Love, or if I am truly in a Hell Universe where they package such as Heaven.  The inherent trick on us is that Indifference and Love look exactly the same from the 3D perspective.

1. all of this [Level of Existence] is almost a fanciful packaged lie from this perspective, while up there it's all fun and games and laughs.  But down here, real horror and suffering.

2. Because there is no way this density is the density of desire.  A gross ignorance of Human Perspective is blatantly obvious, right down to Journey of Souls excerpt where a soul even describes an infant struggling but eventually giving in to its appearance [to integrate and trace its neural pathways to merger with].

3. The inherent horror that lies in the reality of the System the Ra Material lays out is all right here in 3D, and hinted to continue with 4D and 5D [somewhat it'd seem], but at 2D you're already beginning to partake in the methodical system of teaching you suffering...  The whole picture is literally suffering, purposeful suffering.  Desired, wanted, suffering.

4. To learn how to love...?  I can think of much more efficient better methods overall as I am right now, Human-wise.  Even a slight slip in the Veil for everyone, a dream once in a while, an odd unexplainable occurrence, but clear, and direct, not spiritual, but personal.  Instead, nothing.  Dreams that we can't make sense of.  Catalyst we have no knowledge of.  Horrible things, being planned out.  I once read an NDE about a soul that coaxed her human self to fall off a moving carriage to cripple herself, as planned.

5. Most of such NDE's too that talk about future knowledge from the soul perspective is, blatantly ignorant of the experiences being done to the human shell.

6. the universe inflicts suffering on an entire level of existence without any actual consent from that actual level of existence from the standpoint of...That level of existence's Inhabitants, like, Human's who are aware, of this picture, who see something veiled very fancifully, but when you look under the cover it's got a bit of a secret everyone is kind of hush-hush or blatantly acts as if it's no big deal about.  That is torturing Human Beings for their own selfish goals of evolution.  That isn't Unconditionally Loving, or consonant of Free Will.  It isn't even remotely Loving, it is by essence the most Selfish thing one can do, is parasitically utilize another to gain at their loss. (The fact the soul experiences it alongside the human shell as One is not the point here, the fact the Human Shell had no say, and is even considered a Shell at all, and not instead seen as a full self-aware identity that can make its own decisions is, as well as the fact that because the soul merges with the human, and the catalyst is meant for the soul, it is literally only harming the human who has this one run and then their life is done.)

7.  it's all irrelevant until someone can explain why I should cooperate with my 'higher desires' when they have no actual love or care for what they are doing to me!?

8. It is no different from looking at God puncturing Oneself with Love in a crippling way, in order that when he dies, he'll be better not realizing that the Human had dreams.  A Life and Goals.  Desires of its own, that didn't seem to align with the Souls, resulting in punishment.  I mean.  Catalyst...

Intermission.  Just to make it longer... And you know what, I honestly feel like that guy in that Stephen King movie 1408, who is trapped inside Hell, but is outside, but still inside Hell.  I am here.  I can't leave.  I will be tortured.  I will be in pain.  I will suffer.  My dreams do not matter.  My desires are pointless.  MY wants are ignored.  I'm here to suffer, not to learn to love.  That comes after.  Those with the will to pull themselves out of the horror and learn along the way to accelerate their speedy escape out of Hell have extra punishment dished at them and if they fail, they are indifferently treated.  Those who love get surprises and suddenly, here's Hell!  But we're all souls in a relatively locked location in Time/Space (Sounds like room 1408...) and we are here in Space/time being tormented.

9. But if someone opts out, I think that should be a valid means of incarnation ending, not just, oh you gave up, I don't care if it's hell, go back or else you can't move forward.  Unconditionally Loving?  For Evolution? (And Free Will Abiding...?)

10. Have a story to give you more perspective, or allow me to shed some of my perspective upon yours.
A person walks into a life.  They get punched in the face and then are told they choose for this all to happen, and that its their fault, this, for getting punched.  Person shrugs it off being a cool open person.  Sits at a bar and the stool collapses, lifetender comes over and says its their fault, their responsibility, they need to pay for it, or else.  Person pays for the stool with whatever they had intended to use to buy something else.  Person has nothing left to pay with and so opts for a different life, on the way out gets told because they didn't do specific things they'll need to come back to eventually do things a better way, and that if they don't they'll have to pay for it somehow someway somewhere else.  Person says this wasn't what they wanted, gets told it was and that that isn't an excuse to not be the preferred way you choose to have occur regardless of if you're as another person who knows nothing.

11. Does consenting, then becoming amnesiac but still bound by this Life Contract not identified as infringing the free will of the 3D being when they become aware of how things operate without memory of such?  When the person no longer consents, why isn't it considered in the whole of things?  Their suffering is used to learn, what happens when the being no longer consents on a 3D level regardless of what the soul wants?  Why is there indifference towards these views??

12. This universe makes 3D beings suffer. It goes at them with Love that is closer known as indifference on the third density.  It brings them catalyst that sometimes are excessive it'd seem. So much so many do not finish several incarnations but are told they'll NEED to regardless.  That is not choice, nor free will. That is the Creator forcing a part of itself to do without regard for the free will of the unknowing being, who can identify as wholly separate.

13. Its designed to occur out this way.  Why is being abused needed to grow? What being would actually consent to this, while down here, going through it?
I know many will, but many won't. Why are they called excuse makers and ignored?

14. If the future was based on the original premise like it acts like it is, that free will is actually present, then this issue for 3D wouldn't be here now.  If you try to rectify 3D from a higher perspective, you ignore 3D in the process.  I'm talking about 3D BEINGS, every single self aware entity that is currently sure it is an individual here, with its own consent separate a soul identity because they can do such.  (Because that is the nature of all living things, is it not?  A Human Being is as Sacred as a Soul, so why is their Free Will ignored for a Soul's?)

15. Do you consent to a surprise?  Even if that surprise is getting raped then killed by another?  Then to try and over and over, tell me [or them], I chose this suffering, I'm responsible for it.  But call my issues of these surprises and such, EXCUSES?  3D does not maintain Free Will.  You guys are using higher perspectives and overall views, ignoring, literally my point, [that] 3D perspective in the current occurrence [has it's Free Will ignored].  When a person wants to give up, why are they forced by the Universe[...]it seems one MUST complete, and MUST do things to progress, what happens if that impedes with the free will of the [3D] entity?  What happens when so many 3D entities all commit suicide, but they come to, just to be told they must do it all over again? [Without a Choice, meaning even the Soul's Free Will is ignored in the higher dimensions!]

16. Ra says there are surprises.  Do you consent to surprises in the mysterious unknown before you reincarnate?  Do you as a soul give the universe complete consent?  More importantly, how does that override your 3D personality's consent?  I thought Free Will was absolute (Primal Distortion).  I see that 3D Free Will is utterly and completely ignored.  I can't in good faith of an Unconditionally Loving Free Will operating universe, say Third Density, or perhaps this entire octave if the Higher Self forces you to take upon certain paths that are 'as is'...is made of unconditional love, or has free will.

No, 3D is closer to Indifference.  Complete indifference towards the Human being.  What human being wants to be born just to be put through hell to help a soul evolve?  Does it get a choice?  When the soul joins the Human Being, did the human know and consent?  Or is the Soul and the whole Universe using 3D?

Did Humanity get a say?  Why do I notice this endless notion of 'you wanted this' but while you're here, you actually don't want this but you 'want this'.  As a Human being, a self aware humanoid entity, who was joined by a soul in the womb.  Did I. I, the HUMAN.  Consent?  If not, then your Free Will First Distortion has failed me.

The Point
There is the Time/Space Higher Soul, then the Space/Time Self-Aware Human Identity.  Both should have Free Will being Self-Aware.  Only one Free Will is adhered, the other is infringed.

Reincarnation in itself isn't bad, unless only with a soul attached to a Human does the Human experience increasing levels of catalyst that inflict punishment.
The soul being attached also experiences the catalyst, which is meant for it, but it chose to experience it.
So Did the Human consent to the Soul using it, and experiencing through it?  To suffer and be punished for not being aware of it?

Did the Human Consent to being used by a Soul?

And for the Finale:  I'm not literally saying this whole Octave is hell (even though the apparent indifference makes it feel like it to me personally), this level is literally describable as Hell in areas.  Case and Point.  The Holocaust.  And to Rest my Case.  The word Holocaust means Great Burning Sacrifice to God.

[VanAlioSaldo]

The issue is this view requires me to list out all the Ra Material mechanics, all the views and many angles aimed. I have to weave through Free Will of Souls and Free Will of Human's while trying to explain the inherent differences that the clause, All is One, also allow. Such as a Human Shell that is Self-Aware should have Free Will as well as the Soul.

While trying to retain the context of being within 3rd Density 'origin-experiential-perspective', or the Human Shell's point of view, not the souls.

Can the Human Shell desire death where the Soul does not?

[Stranger]

Look, Van, everything you said was my perspective also prior to awakening. I don't know why this world was created the way it is, or made this way through STS interference, or whatever. Certainly that's not a possibility to be dismissed, since STS entitites actually feed on negative emotion and are doing everything in their power right now to protect their cherished food source, the Earth. But they will fail, as they ultimately must do in all respects. And that simple fact - that they are inevitably destined to fail - gives me hope and faith in this Universe.

Back to your main point. We are co-creators. just like the Sun is responsible for co-creating this solar system, we are responsible for co-creating our individual spiritual/emotional state. We have full control over it. Therefore, if you don't like the state you've created within yourself so far, why not change it? Endless love and support are available to you - to each one of us. Purge negativity within yourself and reach toward love; radiate love and it will fill you with happiness and radiate to others around you, helping to make the world less bleak in a very concrete way.

Why complain about it and do nothing, when the tools and possibilities of transforming what you don't like into what you would like are fully under your control?

Really, the biggest gripe I have with the way things work is that the knowledge of how to attain happiness is hidden, and we have to discover it through trial and error. But that's no longer true for either of us. We have, thanks to Ra's awesome gift to mankind, exact knowledge of what needs to be done. So we can't really blame anyone other than ourselves at this point for not doing it!

[Lighthead]

The OP is a good start to try and explain to me the possible...Issues with my own view.

I want you guys to debunk that this place is not literally hell for some, that Human's, those Human Beings are not used and abused by the rest of Creation for Spiritual Evolution.  I realized on my path to discovering this perspective that Love and Indifference in action look exactly the same in the 3D perspective, with inherent differences not known when you apply the perspective as being from 3D origin, and not higher.

Otherwise, because the view, 3rd Density is possible of becoming literally Hell, is a hard one for some to realize due to the huge amounts of positive perspective applied to the material overall, as well as the uncertainties and misunderstandings of the full mechanics of laid out in the Ra Material.

Which I believe that 15% that is wrong may be well placed misinformation to allow for a perspective as the one I've stumbled in to.

So please...for the sake of my mind.  Help me realize that my view, is wrong.

Here's some help, below...  I'm trying...

[ . . . ]

Well after reading all that, I still think I was on point before, but I don't think that I wasn't as on point as I'm going to be right now.

Let's first take your first statement. Your premise is that humans are being used and abused for the sake of creation. First of all, I don't think that that's entirely accurate because what we're going through (some worse than others) is something that everything in existence either will go through eventually, or has gone through. Ra says that the Logos basically stays in a "pure" state to be able to administrate things better, but I think that even some part of the Logos will eventually have to go through some hard catalyst. So we've debunked that. There is nothing that we're going through that the Creator is not going to go through eventually.

You're other point is that 2D and especially 3D is some sort of hell. I think that that can be perceived as accurate, but it begs the question, what is it a hell for? It's basically a hell to be able to help us get beyond the hell and into the heaven. This is where we learn! Learning is difficult. And, sometimes, the lessons are so hard that it might not seem to your conscious mind that you're learning something, but trust me, on some deep level you are learning. And it's not that you're learning how to suffer, you're actually suffering so that you can learn how not to suffer. I know that that's pretty much the same thing that I already said before, but that seems to be the question you're struggling with. If not, then please tell me how I'm missing the point. This head... this head doesn't work too well!

And you say you can think of much better ways to learn so, by all means, channel that information directly to the Creator. He needs all the feedback he or she (or both!) can get. And you'd be surprised to know that it's probably not something that It hasn't thought about already. I mean that's why it's up there and we're down here. It's experienced all this and beyond. Infinitely and eternally... As well as completely good and positive things.

And I just saw right now that you said that the universe is torturing human souls for the sake of its own evolution. Again... it's not something that some aspect of the totality is not going to have to go through itself.

And just my own little intermission (you can sit down and eat popcorn), I would suggest you reread everything I've said this morning because I still think that it is all completely relevant... even though you say it is not.

And here's just a little something to make it interesting... The Creator has actually given you two paths. If you want the hard way, you have to be Service-to-Others. You'll probably be experiencing the same things you're experiencing now... maybe worse, depends. And then you have another path. It's the easy way. And here's where the joke is actually on the Creator in your estimation because... both paths are essentially the same. And at the very end, no path was better than the other.

So by this point, I've made my point so well that I just have to glance at the rest of what you just wrote. I can go off and drink some coffee, come back, and just carry on.

How's them apples? Not trying to mock. Just sharing what I've learned...

[Aion]

The issue is this view requires me to list out all the Ra Material mechanics, all the views and many angles aimed.  I have to weave through Free Will of Souls and Free Will of Human's while trying to explain the inherent differences that the clause, All is One, also allow.  Such as a Human Shell that is Self-Aware should have Free Will as well as the Soul.

While trying to retain the context of being within 3rd Density 'origin-experiential-perspective', or the Human Shell's point of view, not the souls.

Can the Human Shell desire death where the Soul does not?

First, let me express again that I only said my harsh words because I felt you maybe needed to have the extremity of your thoughts mirrored back for you. I just wanted you to see how the attitude came across. I also sent you an apology so I guess whether or not you acknowledge that is your choice.

I believe I see now where the confusion is, and I think that in the Ra Material there is a different understanding. In the Ra Material there is no concept of the 'human shell'. In the Ra Material, beings are not 'enspirited' in that they are not bodies who then receive a soul, rather the body is grown as part of the soul, one of the phases. Instead, Ra discusses each body and type to be an activation of a particular spectrum. When an entity becomes aware of its soul, it is through the awareness of the One Infinite Creator within itself. It does not 'get' a soul from elsewhere.

In otherwords, Ra says that we already, always have bodies existing in each density in potential. Hence we have a red-ray body, orange-ray body, yellow-ray, etc. They also say that the physical, external body we are currently experiencing is a yellow-ray body. Thus, when someone is incarnate, they say that the yellow-ray body is in activation, while the other bodies are in potentiation.

Entrance into incarnation requires the investment or activation of the indigo-ray or etheric body for this is the form maker. The young or small physical mind/body/spirit complex has the seven energy centers potentiated before the birthing process. There are also analogs in time/space of these energy centers corresponding to the seven energy centers in each of the seven true-color densities. Thus in the microcosm exists all the experience that is prepared. It is as though the infant contains the universe.

So you see, the physical body is actually already 'prepared' for the entity before the incarnation actually begins with birth. It even says that the entity experiences the conception and the first breath.

Therefore, as each entity enters the planetary energy web each entity experiences two major planetary influxes, that of the conception, which has to do with the physical, yellow-ray manifestation of the incarnation, and that of the moment you call birth when the breath is first drawn into the body complex of chemical yellow ray.

Thus, from what I can see, where you say "human shell" and compare it to "soul", it seems to me what you are talking about is the conscious mind that is veiled, and its disconnect from the unconscious, the soul. This is a condition of the veil that we experience coming in to third-density. However, I think that since each body is prepared for an incarnation, I don't think there is an issue of consent. One of the reasons being that an entity apparent is not self-responsible right at the start of the incarnation but there is a 'buffer' period of sorts.

18.7 Questioner: As an entity in this density grows from childhood, he becomes more aware of his responsibilities. Is there an age below which an entity is not responsible for his actions, or is he responsible from the time of birth?

Ra: I am Ra. An entity incarnating upon the Earth plane becomes conscious of self at a varying point in its time/space progress through the continuum. This may have a median, shall we say, of approximately fifteen of your months. Some entities become conscious of self at a period closer to incarnation, some at a period farther from this event. In all cases responsibility then becomes retroactive from that point backwards in the continuum so that distortions are to be understood by the entity and dissolved as the entity learns.

This suggests to me that the body itself doesn't have a self-awareness, at least not in the way we would consider it. It does have intelligence, but this intelligence is more of an extension rather than a self-awareness I believe. I think actually one of the fundamental effects of the veil is feeling like your body is 'not you' and that there is a disconnect. I think that's an effect of the separation between conscious and unconscious mind.

47.9 Questioner: Which bodies do we have immediately after physical death from this yellow-ray body that I now inhabit?

Ra: I am Ra. You have all bodies in potentiation.

According to this, our bodies here are actually just 'denser' versions of our higher bodies.

30.3 Questioner: Upon our physical death, as we call it, from this particular density and this particular incarnative experience, we lose this chemical body. Immediately after the loss of this chemical body do we maintain a different type of body? Is there still a mind/body/spirit complex at that point?

Ra: I am Ra. This is correct. The mind/body/spirit complex is quite intact; the physical body complex you now associate with the term body being but manifestation of a more dense and intelligently informed and powerful body complex.

Here they seem to pretty heavily imply that much of what we experience as this external body is a surface illusion.

30.4 Questioner: Is there any loss to the mind or spirit after this transition which we call death or any impairment of either because of the loss of this chemical body that we now have?

Ra: I am Ra. In your terms there is a great loss of mind complex due to the fact that much of the activity of a mental nature of which you are aware during the experience of this space/time continuum is as much of a surface illusion as is the chemical body complex.

In other terms nothing whatever of importance is lost; the character or, shall we say, pure distillation of emotions and biases or distortions and wisdoms, if you will, becoming obvious for the first time, shall we say; these pure emotions and wisdoms and bias/distortions being, for the most part, either ignored or underestimated during physical life experience.

So it appears to me that the 'blueprint' in our M/B/S complex is the image or base for the organization of chemicals in to the yellow-ray body.

47.10 Questioner: Then the yellow-ray body in potentiation is used to create the chemical arrangement that I have as a physical body now. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is incorrect only in that in your present incarnation the yellow-ray body is not in potentiation but in activation, it being that body which is manifest.

Here is perhaps another way its worded that expresses it the most clearly.

17.38 Questioner: Well, does each… does… this is difficult. Our physical plane: Are there seven sub-planes to what we call our physical plane here?
Ra: I am Ra. You are correct. This is difficult to understand. There are an infinite number of planes. In your particular space/time continuum distortion there are seven sub-planes of mind/body/spirit complexes. You will discover the vibrational nature of these seven planes as you pass through your experiential distortions, meeting other-selves of the various levels which correspond to the energy influx centers of the physical vehicle.

The invisible, or inner, third-density planes are inhabited by those who are not of body complex natures such as yours; that is, they do not collect about their spirit/mind complexes a chemical body. Nevertheless these entities are divided in what you may call an artificial dream within a dream into various levels. In the upper levels, desire to communicate knowledge back down to the outer planes of existence becomes less, due to the intensive learn/teaching which occurs upon these levels.

Thus, in the view of Ra, although a orange-ray chemical body may exist without a M/B/S complex, it is basically inert and essentially a biological machine, this rarely happens except in the womb. The yellow-ray body is something which is formed for an entity by that entity's own form-maker self, the M/B/S totality.

The orange-ray body is the physical body complex. This body complex is still not the body you inhabit but rather the body formed without self-awareness, the body in the womb before the spirit/mind complex enters. This body may live without the inhabitation of the mind and spirit complexes. However, it seldom does so.

The yellow-ray body is your physical vehicle which you know of at this time and in which you experience catalyst. This body has the mind/body/spirit characteristics and is equal to the physical illusion, as you have called it.

So, you could say that the orange-ray body is 'inhabited' by the mind/spirit complex, but even here it says that it doesn't have self-awareness. In conclusion I would say that in the Ra Material our bodies are not seen to be separate entities which we are 'borrowing' but they are actual, direct manifestations of our own being.

[Indigo Light]

So leave then. Do you want sympathy for your suffering? Empathy? To be told that you're right and everything is wrong and we're all f***** and there is no hope? Want me to feed your nihilism a little bit?

A. What do you think?  I'm honestly asking.

I hope you don't go, I don't actually want you to leave, I just wanted to point out the extremity of your thoughts. I'll be honest, it bothers me too, a lot, every day. Seeing the suffering in the world is something that makes my body ache every day. I am more and more inclined to believe as time goes on that there has been a malicious force which has had its hand in disconnecting humans from our divine origins.

B. Please tell me exactly how you derived, I hope you don't go, as, So leave then.

And then consider this food for thought.

1) Respect. Compassion. Loving-kindness. Empathy. Trust. Goodwill. Desire to serve. Embracing each other. Opening our heart. Participants are asked to keep the thought in the forefront of their minds at all times that each on this forum IS the Creator. Please keep communication respectful at all times and in all ways. The participant may disagree to the bone with an idea without personally attacking the author of the idea. Please remember that we are all here to expand our knowledge, deepen our understanding, and support one another by reflecting our divinity to each other. We are One being -- we are not here to forget the real.

Now to A, and B.

You tell me.

Just some constructive criticism if you decide to come back. Your OP was a million miles long. I honestly didn't read all of it. If it's a topic that I find really juicy, I might have the patience to read something as long as that. I realize that what you wrote was something personal so it may have been hard to cut the subject down to its bare elements, but just less is what I have to say. Just put it down... to a lot less. That's what was hard for me personally to relate to and to add so much to. It might sound like another cruel blow from this cruel world, but that's the unfiltered truth from my end. Just take it or leave it.

Edit: My bad. I was probably getting confused with another one of your threads.

I can actually take constructive criticism, so this is well.

But between your overall attitude, I'm going to provide my own bit of take it or leave it.
You've got a serious issue with applying the correct tone in your posts, unless sarcasm and hypocrisy wasn't your intended tone.  Oh, I'm sorry, just a 'cruel unfiltered' bit of honesty my friend.  How does it feel?  Because honestly, and I'm seriously apologizing for saying that, but honestly if you think trying to be 'unfiltered' is the same as honest, I just want to tell you two things.

Honestly consider talking to and listening to yourself.  You might be surprised in a bad way.
And secondly, honestly, in my opinion, which I, honestly, know you don't care about, it's, honestly, exactly that.  That, I think you don't care.  So, regardless, since I only want to get this thread finished up and explain this issue to you all in a manner you'll understand...  Since I do think it's something you all should be made aware of...  I'm going to explain.  But between everyone's attitude here...  I'm getting real tired of it, and I will just leave.  And honestly, it seems like this forum needs a more active member in it, cause this place isn't looking too active anymore...

So try not to push people out of it???

And sorry Lighthead, but both you and Tanner need to be a bit more considerate overall.  And Light, all I meant by my comments was you come off highly indifferent towards others, and you're kind of a jerk.  I know you don't care, but sometimes you need to be told regardless of if you don't care or not.  That's what I'm discovering from living in an Indifferent Universe.

So let me list it out for you in a list of contextual quotes of my own posts, I'll cut it down and edit for context, but the point will be at the bottom, the huuuuge sum up, with all the meat being listed below.

Because I'm pretty annoyed.  Not at anyone here but at the Infinite Creator.  Because I'm more than sure I'm living inside a well packaged and fancified Hell now.  Let me explain why.

Preface or tl;dr;;StartHere
There is an Octave, Layers 1 through 3 can all experience each other, Layers 4-8 do not need to show themselves to the lower layers.
Layers 1 and 2 are basically, with a few exceptions, all not self-aware but becoming.
By Layer 3 Self-Awareness is present.
Layers 4-6 integrate into the lower layers in the form of reincarnation, in order to learn.

By making the Self Aware Layer 3 Entity suffer through catalyst in order to learn a lesson.

0. It is literally only from 3D that this perspective can be met it seems, all others seem to truly just accept it as is.  Which I don't know if I should believe it is actually out of Love, or if I am truly in a Hell Universe where they package such as Heaven.  The inherent trick on us is that Indifference and Love look exactly the same from the 3D perspective.

1. all of this [Level of Existence] is almost a fanciful packaged lie from this perspective, while up there it's all fun and games and laughs.  But down here, real horror and suffering.

2. Because there is no way this density is the density of desire.  A gross ignorance of Human Perspective is blatantly obvious, right down to Journey of Souls excerpt where a soul even describes an infant struggling but eventually giving in to its appearance [to integrate and trace its neural pathways to merger with].

3. The inherent horror that lies in the reality of the System the Ra Material lays out is all right here in 3D, and hinted to continue with 4D and 5D [somewhat it'd seem], but at 2D you're already beginning to partake in the methodical system of teaching you suffering...  The whole picture is literally suffering, purposeful suffering.  Desired, wanted, suffering.

4. To learn how to love...?  I can think of much more efficient better methods overall as I am right now, Human-wise.  Even a slight slip in the Veil for everyone, a dream once in a while, an odd unexplainable occurrence, but clear, and direct, not spiritual, but personal.  Instead, nothing.  Dreams that we can't make sense of.  Catalyst we have no knowledge of.  Horrible things, being planned out.  I once read an NDE about a soul that coaxed her human self to fall off a moving carriage to cripple herself, as planned.

5. Most of such NDE's too that talk about future knowledge from the soul perspective is, blatantly ignorant of the experiences being done to the human shell.

6. the universe inflicts suffering on an entire level of existence without any actual consent from that actual level of existence from the standpoint of...That level of existence's Inhabitants, like, Human's who are aware, of this picture, who see something veiled very fancifully, but when you look under the cover it's got a bit of a secret everyone is kind of hush-hush or blatantly acts as if it's no big deal about.  That is torturing Human Beings for their own selfish goals of evolution.  That isn't Unconditionally Loving, or consonant of Free Will.  It isn't even remotely Loving, it is by essence the most Selfish thing one can do, is parasitically utilize another to gain at their loss. (The fact the soul experiences it alongside the human shell as One is not the point here, the fact the Human Shell had no say, and is even considered a Shell at all, and not instead seen as a full self-aware identity that can make its own decisions is, as well as the fact that because the soul merges with the human, and the catalyst is meant for the soul, it is literally only harming the human who has this one run and then their life is done.)

7.  it's all irrelevant until someone can explain why I should cooperate with my 'higher desires' when they have no actual love or care for what they are doing to me!?

8. It is no different from looking at God puncturing Oneself with Love in a crippling way, in order that when he dies, he'll be better not realizing that the Human had dreams.  A Life and Goals.  Desires of its own, that didn't seem to align with the Souls, resulting in punishment.  I mean.  Catalyst...

Intermission.  Just to make it longer... And you know what, I honestly feel like that guy in that Stephen King movie 1408, who is trapped inside Hell, but is outside, but still inside Hell.  I am here.  I can't leave.  I will be tortured.  I will be in pain.  I will suffer.  My dreams do not matter.  My desires are pointless.  MY wants are ignored.  I'm here to suffer, not to learn to love.  That comes after.  Those with the will to pull themselves out of the horror and learn along the way to accelerate their speedy escape out of Hell have extra punishment dished at them and if they fail, they are indifferently treated.  Those who love get surprises and suddenly, here's Hell!  But we're all souls in a relatively locked location in Time/Space (Sounds like room 1408...) and we are here in Space/time being tormented.

9. But if someone opts out, I think that should be a valid means of incarnation ending, not just, oh you gave up, I don't care if it's hell, go back or else you can't move forward.  Unconditionally Loving?  For Evolution? (And Free Will Abiding...?)

10. Have a story to give you more perspective, or allow me to shed some of my perspective upon yours.
A person walks into a life.  They get punched in the face and then are told they choose for this all to happen, and that its their fault, this, for getting punched.  Person shrugs it off being a cool open person.  Sits at a bar and the stool collapses, lifetender comes over and says its their fault, their responsibility, they need to pay for it, or else.  Person pays for the stool with whatever they had intended to use to buy something else.  Person has nothing left to pay with and so opts for a different life, on the way out gets told because they didn't do specific things they'll need to come back to eventually do things a better way, and that if they don't they'll have to pay for it somehow someway somewhere else.  Person says this wasn't what they wanted, gets told it was and that that isn't an excuse to not be the preferred way you choose to have occur regardless of if you're as another person who knows nothing.

11. Does consenting, then becoming amnesiac but still bound by this Life Contract not identified as infringing the free will of the 3D being when they become aware of how things operate without memory of such?  When the person no longer consents, why isn't it considered in the whole of things?  Their suffering is used to learn, what happens when the being no longer consents on a 3D level regardless of what the soul wants?  Why is there indifference towards these views??

12. This universe makes 3D beings suffer. It goes at them with Love that is closer known as indifference on the third density.  It brings them catalyst that sometimes are excessive it'd seem. So much so many do not finish several incarnations but are told they'll NEED to regardless.  That is not choice, nor free will. That is the Creator forcing a part of itself to do without regard for the free will of the unknowing being, who can identify as wholly separate.

13. Its designed to occur out this way.  Why is being abused needed to grow? What being would actually consent to this, while down here, going through it?
I know many will, but many won't. Why are they called excuse makers and ignored?

14. If the future was based on the original premise like it acts like it is, that free will is actually present, then this issue for 3D wouldn't be here now.  If you try to rectify 3D from a higher perspective, you ignore 3D in the process.  I'm talking about 3D BEINGS, every single self aware entity that is currently sure it is an individual here, with its own consent separate a soul identity because they can do such.  (Because that is the nature of all living things, is it not?  A Human Being is as Sacred as a Soul, so why is their Free Will ignored for a Soul's?)

15. Do you consent to a surprise?  Even if that surprise is getting raped then killed by another?  Then to try and over and over, tell me [or them], I chose this suffering, I'm responsible for it.  But call my issues of these surprises and such, EXCUSES?  3D does not maintain Free Will.  You guys are using higher perspectives and overall views, ignoring, literally my point, [that] 3D perspective in the current occurrence [has it's Free Will ignored].  When a person wants to give up, why are they forced by the Universe[...]it seems one MUST complete, and MUST do things to progress, what happens if that impedes with the free will of the [3D] entity?  What happens when so many 3D entities all commit suicide, but they come to, just to be told they must do it all over again? [Without a Choice, meaning even the Soul's Free Will is ignored in the higher dimensions!]

16. Ra says there are surprises.  Do you consent to surprises in the mysterious unknown before you reincarnate?  Do you as a soul give the universe complete consent?  More importantly, how does that override your 3D personality's consent?  I thought Free Will was absolute (Primal Distortion).  I see that 3D Free Will is utterly and completely ignored.  I can't in good faith of an Unconditionally Loving Free Will operating universe, say Third Density, or perhaps this entire octave if the Higher Self forces you to take upon certain paths that are 'as is'...is made of unconditional love, or has free will.

No, 3D is closer to Indifference.  Complete indifference towards the Human being.  What human being wants to be born just to be put through hell to help a soul evolve?  Does it get a choice?  When the soul joins the Human Being, did the human know and consent?  Or is the Soul and the whole Universe using 3D?

Did Humanity get a say?  Why do I notice this endless notion of 'you wanted this' but while you're here, you actually don't want this but you 'want this'.  As a Human being, a self aware humanoid entity, who was joined by a soul in the womb.  Did I. I, the HUMAN.  Consent?  If not, then your Free Will First Distortion has failed me.

The Point
There is the Time/Space Higher Soul, then the Space/Time Self-Aware Human Identity.  Both should have Free Will being Self-Aware.  Only one Free Will is adhered, the other is infringed.

Reincarnation in itself isn't bad, unless only with a soul attached to a Human does the Human experience increasing levels of catalyst that inflict punishment.
The soul being attached also experiences the catalyst, which is meant for it, but it chose to experience it.
So Did the Human consent to the Soul using it, and experiencing through it?  To suffer and be punished for not being aware of it?

Did the Human Consent to being used by a Soul?

And for the Finale:  I'm not literally saying this whole Octave is hell (even though the apparent indifference makes it feel like it to me personally), this level is literally describable as Hell in areas.  Case and Point.  The Holocaust.  And to Rest my Case.  The word Holocaust means Great Burning Sacrifice to God.

Very intriguing, In my thoughts. The Body is a sub-density of the soul of sorts. The body is working on becoming on the level, of what you consider the soul as of now. Everything your talking about, is the sacramental nature of everything. The higher densities sacrifice as well. Who do you think sends you light all "day" long? Also don't quote me on that sub-density thing, I said of sorts. Also the body doesn't just get a one time go. The body will keep incarnating, for souls, until it has a graduation of sorts for itself. Then can become a "soul" itself. No part of the creator is ever lost, or cast aside.

[Indigo Light]

I truly do understand where your coming from. Nor am I saying I got it figured out. =) That's my thoughts as of now.

[mjlabadia]

Hi Van,
  I'm sorry if my post contributed to the digression of the thread.  I was associating your O.P. here, with a previous thread you made.

  I misunderstood your big picture, and identified with it as an analog to my little picture suffering. I should have thought about your 
posts more before identifying my personal experience with it.

 I think Diana came much closer to the mark.

 However, I still feel we may have a piece of each others' puzzle.

 I can tell by the syntax in your posts, I'm not as spiritually awake as you are.

 But I pray something in my narrative here can help ease your suffering.

 Van,......the "Higher Perspective".......that "Big Picture" stuff,.......it can be REALLY BIG.  

 This level of Spiritual Evolution or "Awakeness" can be excruciating, because the enhanced vision we have
seems not to be backed-up with enough incarnative experience to help us process the the horrors we see.

  At times, I've allowed the "Big Picture" to overwhelm and interfere with my incarnation here.

 I see the suffering and pain you see. I think we all do. I perceive we here in the forum feel, or "sense" it
more acutely than perhaps does "Joe Sixpack".
 
    I don't think any of us has the understanding to provide ALL of the answers you seek. I sometimes wonder 
if we are even supposed to have that level of understanding at this stage.

 But,...........I've found some things that relieve MY suffering,......and I hope they might help you. 
 Please forgive any cliche sounding "mjlabadia-isms" that follow:

 When it gets too big,....and too spiritually painful for me,....I shrink my perspective.

 Sometimes I have to shrink it down to the "RIGHT NOW" and to the "MYSELF". 
 "It's o.k. right now. I accept the next 5 seconds
of my incarnation."
  The suffering is still out there, the horrors and atrocities still go on. But right now,....."I am O.K."
  I'm not in a position to affect the  "Great Out There",......I'm not strong enough right now. 
 I don't fully understand the "why" of all this, and THAT'S O.K.
  
 I tell myself these things. If only for the next 5 seconds,....10 seconds,......minute. 

 Van,...it doesn't CHANGE a damned thing. The 3D world remains cruel,.....the atrocities still
go on,.....the ***holes still seem to rule,.....and my rabbits STILL chew my ****ing computer cable!!

  However,..... my RELATIONSHIP with all of that changes. 

 But Van,....more importantly,....there IS love.
 We're all here,..trying to understand your suffering. Trying to give some answer.

 Van, I'm supposed to be designing Band-Pass filters for a South Korean Navy Comms site right now.
 I'm here with my pathetic typing skills, wracking my three brain cells for the right thing to say to you.
  
  I started typing this at 11:00 a.m. The noon siren at the firehouse down the mountain went off and I told 
myself,...."Dammit Jamie,....you have to get back to work." 
  
  Now it's 1:56 p.m.  And because I know your a very smart and awakened person, I've re-written this 4 times.
 Why?.....Because I know your not going to take some B.S. platitude from me. I won't reach you with that. And that's as it should be.

 But Van,...don't you see?..........THAT'S THE HONEY! THAT'S THE LOVE. 

 What else would motivate us to spend this time responding, but Love?

 It's small,.... not grand,.... not cosmic,.... just a seed. It's here in the small things. 
  
 Perhaps it's those small seeds we're supposed to be giving the most attention to. 

 Perhaps if we can balance our far looking telescopic view of the universe, with an equal measure of near field viewing with the
unaided eye, we might be able to see more love..........Van, even if it means just seeing the Love in yourself.
  
  It's there inside you in great measures. You wouldn't give a damn about most of what you've posted if there wasn't an immense 
amount of love in you.
 And, we wouldn't be here responding if there wasn't Love. (I'd be skinning my rabbits if it weren't for love,.....spoiled monsters!!)

 So now,....before I get back to work,.....I'm going to re-read this post once again. And,......probably make more "adjustments."

 Why? Because I'll try to put myself in your shoes as your reading it. And pray that I have said some small thing to encourage you.

 All of us on this thread doing it out of Love. Out of Compassion. Because we all know that pain, and that confusion.

 Van,.......there IS Love.

                                               Sincerely
                                                Jamie


P.S. I think I've messed up an already long post by somehow adding some large space at the bottom. Moderators I'm sorry.
 Clearly my "great engineering skills" at work.







 

  
 
  
 
 

 


   
  

    

   
  


 

[isis]

P.S. I think I've messed up an already long post by somehow adding some large space at the bottom. Moderators I'm sorry.
 Clearly my "great engineering skills" at work.







 

  
 
  
 
 

 


   
  

    

   
  


 

hahaha :)